MR

Ex-Foreigner singer Lou Gramm has told Rock Radio that former bandmate Mick Jones conspired with label bosses to sabotage Gramm's new band.

The frontman formed Shadow King in an attempt to recover his hard rock roots, after becoming unhappy with Jones' preference for keyboard-led ballads throughout the 1980s.

In 1991 Shadow King released their debut album through Atlantic Records, the same label as Foreigner. But Gramm says the reason it didn't sell, and the reason the band broke up, was Jones' "sabotage".

He tells Rock Radio DJ Paul Anthony: "I enjoyed the occasional keyboard song - I liked Cold As Ice, I thought Waiting for a Girl was a terrific song and I thought I Want To Know What Live Is was a terrific song.

"But I think the perception of the band was we were turning into a ballads band, and nothing could be further from the truth, certainly from my perspective. But I'll be a son of a gun if, next album, Mick didn't have another soft wispy ballad that he wanted to push as the first single, called I Don't Want To Live Without You.

"By then I was very dissatisfied. I could see in the creative stages that most of the time and effort was put towards finding that certain ballad, and the rock songs were almost an afterthought.

"I could see that change in front of my eyes. I was fighting it, first personally with him. Then when the band started taking flak for not being the rock band we used to be, I had to state my case that it wasn't a choice I'd have made. That's when I broke off and had my first solo album - to let the world know I just wanna rock."

Gramm enjoyed some commercial success with his solo release, including the hit Midnight Blue. He says: "The funny thing was, before I recorded that album I presented Midnight Blue to Mick as a song Foreigner could do. He couldn't see it. He said, 'I don't hear it - I don't hear it as a good song.' I said, 'Okay... you'll hear it.' And I'm sure he did..."

But acrimony became all-out war when Gramm formed Shadow King and Atlantic - led by founding director Ahmet Ertegun - released their album.

He explains: "I thought it had much more life than it got. We only played one live show. I was told by friends of mine within Atlantic that the record was sabotaged. Promoting it, pushing it, doing all the things a big rock label should do to promote an artist - Atlantic didn't do any of those things for this album.

"During that time there were a lot of meetings between Mick and Ahmet Ertegun."

Listen to the whole interview where Gramm talks about his early career, his solo work, his brain tumour, writing and recording a song for the Lost Boys soundrack in two days, forming a band with his brothers after their parents' dying wishes, and his new album.

Fascinating. Thanks, Mike.

Bitter, bitter man

JRNYFan wrote:Bitter, bitter man

Sounds like he's telling it like it was. Why didn't most people hear about Shadow King when it was released?

And Foreigner did start getting a rep as a ballad band in the 80's.

Had a chuckle at this one:

Gramm enjoyed some commercial success with his solo release, including the hit Midnight Blue. He says: "The funny thing was, before I recorded that album I presented Midnight Blue to Mick as a song Foreigner could do. He couldn't see it. He said, 'I don't hear it - I don't hear it as a good song.' I said, 'Okay... you'll hear it.' And I'm sure he did..."

JRNYFan wrote:Bitter, bitter man

Not necessarily. Have you ever worked with Mick Jones? I heard he can be hard to work with. Maybe that's why Foreigner has had about 25 different members since its inception.

Former members

Lou Gramm – lead vocals, percussion (1976–1990, 1992–2003)
Dennis Elliott – drums, percussion, backing vocals (1976–1991)
Ian McDonald – guitar, keyboards, saxophone, flute, backing vocals (1976–1980)
Al Greenwood – keyboards, synthesizers (1976–1980)
Ed Gagliardi – bass, backing vocals (1976–1979)
Rick Wills – bass, backing vocals (1979–1992)
Mark Rivera – saxophone, flute, keyboards, guitar, backing vocals (1981–1987, 1991–1992)
Bob Mayo – keyboards, synthesizers, guitar, backing vocals (1981–1985)
Peter Reilich – keyboards, synthesizers (1981–1982)
Larry Oakes – guitar, keyboards, synthesizers, backing vocals (1988)
Lou Cortelezzi – saxophone (1988)
Johnny Edwards – lead vocals, guitar (1990–1992)
Larry Aberman – drums, percussion (1991–1992)
Bruce Turgon – bass, backing vocals (1992–2003)
Mark Schulman – drums, percussion, backing vocals (1992–1995, 2000–2002)
Scott Gilman – guitar, saxophone, backing vocals (1992, 1993–1995)
Ron Wikso – drums, percussion (1995–1998)
John Purdell - keyboards, synthesizers (filled in for Jacobs 2000)
Denny Carmassi – drums, percussion (2002)
Chaz West – lead vocals (2004)
Jeff Jacobs – keyboards, synthesizers, backing vocals (1991–2007)
Paul Mirkovich – keyboards, synthesizers (2007–2008)
Jason Bonham – drums, percussion, backing vocals (2004–2007, 2007–2008)
Bryan Head - drums, percussion (2008)

Good point V, maybe it was Edwards' choice not to return when they went looking for another sub.

JRNYFan wrote:Bitter, bitter man

bitter? Maybe....but there IS some truth in it.

from Andrew's interview with Keith Olsen (Record Producer for Shadow King)
http://www.melodicrock.com/interviews/keitholsen.html


Do you think… the album really didn't do a lot.
First off, anytime…if you're Lou Gramm, you do a record, you call it Lou Gramm. You don't…He got into this whole thing about wanting to be part of a band. And then the other thing is that he wanted to leave Foreigner. Now, at that time…and he left Foreigner. Now Atlantic is never going to let that album happen. If it had twenty hits on it, they weren't going to let it happen. Because where did they want Lou Gramm? Back in the band. Because Foreigner was a staple for them. Who's that kid that they put in the band?
Johnny something or other.

Johnny Edwards, yeah.
Johnny Edwards.

Didn't work did it?
No. Talented kid. Real talented kid.

So did Shadow King fail because it wasn't called Lou Gramm?
I think that's one reason.
And the other reason is that there were problems within the band. There were emotional hardships going on. Lou was having a really hard time with his wife during it. He was on the West Coast, she was on the East Coast. And Vivian Campbell was just this great player and the rest of the guys in the band were good players, real good players but it really wasn't a band. A bunch of guys playing star. So it didn't come off as a band. So there's a lot of little reasons. A lot of them were about performance. There's that one song on there that just makes hair stand up on your arms, 'Russia'.


In the end, it's record company politics. "Foreigner + Lou Gramm" = $$$$$. "Foreigner with someone else" = "Lou Gramm with someone else" = less $. Sabotage or just business, call it what you will. Strange to me why you would sign a band and put money in them to make a record just to let it fail without trying...

Here's an interesting quote from Dennis Elliott's bio, Foreigner's drummer from 1976-1991:

Dennis would continue with the band through the rest of the 70's and into the 80's. On Foreigner's album "Inside Information" (1987), Dennis co-wrote the song "Out Of The Blue" with the other members of the band. And along with bassist Rick Wills, Dennis took part on the recordings for the Mick Jones' solo album in 1989.

In June of 1990, Dennis and Iona, his wife, were rescued by the Coast Guard after their yacht caught on fire, they were 45 miles east of the Florida coast, fortunately no one was injured.

After Foreigner's LP "Unusual Heat" and tour, Dennis left the band. In his words, "At the time Foreigner was not Foreigner. Lou Gramm was not the singer. He was pursuing a solo career. And I found it difficult if not impossible a Foreigner without Lou". After his departure Foreigner disbanded.

Deja vu Steve Smith?

Steve Smith the drummer once again for the band, took a page out of history and decided if there was no Steve Perry then there was no Journey and he quit and started a progressive Jazz band.

The bottom line.

Both bands carried on without Steve Perry and Lou Gramm.

Schon, just like Jones are oblivious to the fact that their new lead singers are both living in the shadows of their former front men. I look at Mick Jones and I think A) recovering alchohic, B) recovering herion adict, it's one or the other, or both.

Take a look what Steve Smith said, and the other guy Dennis, I mean these guys were a huge part of the bands, what does it take to convince people today Journey and Foreigner are crappy tribute acts at best.

Arnel is great, Kelly is obviously great too... unfortunately both singers are forced to sing, copy, mimic in the shadows of the former front men (to bring home the bacon), that to me is called a "Tribute Band" seeking money, and no progression or evolving. Neither of the two acts have moved on since their former stars left them, and they never will.

Vladan wrote:The bottom line.

Both bands carried on without Steve Perry and Lou Gramm.

Schon, just like Jones are oblivious to the fact that their new lead singers are both living in the shadows of their former front men. I look at Mick Jones and I think A) recovering alchohic, B) recovering herion adict, it's one or the other, or both.

Take a look what Steve Smith said, and the other guy Dennis, I mean these guys were a huge part of the bands, what does it take to convince people today Journey and Foreigner are crappy tribute acts at best.

Arnel is great, Kelly is obviously great too... unfortunately both singers are forced to sing, copy, mimic in the shadows of the former front men (to bring home the bacon), that to me is called a "Tribute Band" seeking money, and no progression or evolving. Neither of the two acts have moved on since their former stars left them, and they never will.

Well said. Maybe they don't need to move on? I mean, what better tribute band could you get than part of the original cast? Mick and Neal are definitely playing similar gigs. They lost their frontman and yet they are trying to move forward like nothing happened. I would say that Neal is doing a better job of the two as far as concert ticket receipts are concerned. But you've got to give them credit, they are still jamming and trying to relive what made them great.

i agree, when both the band and singer are continuing on, they should be able to get together.
but with journey steve refuses to participate.
whould the non loons prefer that we never get to hear the songs played live, and neal just retire.
carpe diem

Voyager wrote:

JRNYFan wrote:Bitter, bitter man

Not necessarily. Have you ever worked with Mick Jones? I heard he can be hard to work with. Maybe that's why Foreigner has had about 25 different members since its inception.

Former members

Lou Gramm – lead vocals, percussion (1976–1990, 1992–2003)
Dennis Elliott – drums, percussion, backing vocals (1976–1991)
Ian McDonald – guitar, keyboards, saxophone, flute, backing vocals (1976–1980)
Al Greenwood – keyboards, synthesizers (1976–1980)
Ed Gagliardi – bass, backing vocals (1976–1979)
Rick Wills – bass, backing vocals (1979–1992)
Mark Rivera – saxophone, flute, keyboards, guitar, backing vocals (1981–1987, 1991–1992)
Bob Mayo – keyboards, synthesizers, guitar, backing vocals (1981–1985)
Peter Reilich – keyboards, synthesizers (1981–1982)
Larry Oakes – guitar, keyboards, synthesizers, backing vocals (1988)
Lou Cortelezzi – saxophone (1988)
Johnny Edwards – lead vocals, guitar (1990–1992)
Larry Aberman – drums, percussion (1991–1992)
Bruce Turgon – bass, backing vocals (1992–2003)
Mark Schulman – drums, percussion, backing vocals (1992–1995, 2000–2002)
Scott Gilman – guitar, saxophone, backing vocals (1992, 1993–1995)
Ron Wikso – drums, percussion (1995–1998)
John Purdell - keyboards, synthesizers (filled in for Jacobs 2000)
Denny Carmassi – drums, percussion (2002)
Chaz West – lead vocals (2004)
Jeff Jacobs – keyboards, synthesizers, backing vocals (1991–2007)
Paul Mirkovich – keyboards, synthesizers (2007–2008)
Jason Bonham – drums, percussion, backing vocals (2004–2007, 2007–2008)
Bryan Head - drums, percussion (2008)

Paul Mirkovich and Bryan Head were never officially members of the band. Paul already had other committments and was just a touring musician. Both Jeff and Jason left for reasons which did not involve Mick. Just saying.

Voyager wrote:Deja vu Steve Smith? Steve Smith the drummer once again for the band, took a page out of history and decided if there was no Steve Perry then there was no Journey and he quit and started a progressive Jazz band.

Untrue! Smith didn't want to go through starting Journey back up from scratch, and already had his successful jazz band Vital information. He's been supportive of Journey continuing, including being in studio for Arrival, speaking with Castronovo and playing with the band for its 30 anniversary show.

JRNYFan wrote:Bitter, bitter man

I like Gramm too but this is becoming my belief after each successive interview I read.
If anything the advent of Nirvana and Pearl Jam "sabotaged" Shadow King.

Can anyone map all this to Kevin Bacon?



later~

Arkansas wrote:Can anyone map all this to Kevin Bacon?



later~

Easy! During this period, Lou Grahm did the theme from LOST BOYS which starred Keifer Sutherland, who went on to make FLATLINERS with...you guessed it. KEVIN BACON!

Arkansas wrote:Can anyone map all this to Kevin Bacon?



later~

Obviously.

Feels like the first time with Lou's vocals was in Superbad, which starred Seth Rogen, who was in 40 year old virgin with Catherine Keener, who was in Being John Malcovich with John Cusack, who was in Sixteen Candles written by John Hughes who also wrote She's having a baby, which starred.......KEVIN BACON

Eric wrote:

Arkansas wrote:Can anyone map all this to Kevin Bacon?



later~

Obviously.

Feels like the first time with Lou's vocals was in Superbad, which starred Seth Rogen, who was in 40 year old virgin with Catherine Keener, who was in Being John Malcovich with John Cusack, who was in Sixteen Candles written by John Hughes who also wrote She's having a baby, which starred.......KEVIN BACON

I am totally impressed.

JRNYFan wrote:Bitter, bitter man

I did not see it that way. He was telling what he thought. And I didn't read any bad comments about Mick personally, jsut that Mick wanted Shadow King to fail. You always want to beat your rivals.
But to be honest, I do not think Shadow King was a great cd. It was ok.

Q: Does Lou Gramm have loons like Steve Perry does?

A: Yes, they are called Louns.

Voyager wrote:

Vladan wrote:The bottom line.

Both bands carried on without Steve Perry and Lou Gramm.

Schon, just like Jones are oblivious to the fact that their new lead singers are both living in the shadows of their former front men. I look at Mick Jones and I think A) recovering alchohic, B) recovering herion adict, it's one or the other, or both.

Take a look what Steve Smith said, and the other guy Dennis, I mean these guys were a huge part of the bands, what does it take to convince people today Journey and Foreigner are crappy tribute acts at best.

Arnel is great, Kelly is obviously great too... unfortunately both singers are forced to sing, copy, mimic in the shadows of the former front men (to bring home the bacon), that to me is called a "Tribute Band" seeking money, and no progression or evolving. Neither of the two acts have moved on since their former stars left them, and they never will.

Well said. Maybe they don't need to move on? I mean, what better tribute band could you get than part of the original cast? Mick and Neal are definitely playing similar gigs. They lost their frontman and yet they are trying to move forward like nothing happened. I would say that Neal is doing a better job of the two as far as concert ticket receipts are concerned. But you've got to give them credit, they are still jamming and trying to relive what made them great.

Lol, too true mate. I was a bit fired up when I wrote that up hahaha. But yes your right, why do they need to move on... they have nothing to prove anymore, I guess it's only realistic they stay true to themselves.

Yeah Neal is doing much much better it seems, atleast they have released a fair bit of material since the departure of Perry many years ago, and even recently with Arnel, their new album which is actually really good, as all we know... but! you know, for me the classic material is far far better.

Vladan wrote:Lol, too true mate. I was a bit fired up when I wrote that up hahaha. But yes your right, why do they need to move on... they have nothing to prove anymore, I guess it's only realistic they stay true to themselves.

Yeah Neal is doing much much better it seems, atleast they have released a fair bit of material since the departure of Perry many years ago, and even recently with Arnel, their new album which is actually really good, as all we know... but! you know, for me the classic material is far far better.

For what it's worth, just curious...do you count Trial By Fire in with the "classic material" or not? or ROR? Just trying to see where you are coming from.

kgdjpubs wrote:

Vladan wrote:Lol, too true mate. I was a bit fired up when I wrote that up hahaha. But yes your right, why do they need to move on... they have nothing to prove anymore, I guess it's only realistic they stay true to themselves.

Yeah Neal is doing much much better it seems, atleast they have released a fair bit of material since the departure of Perry many years ago, and even recently with Arnel, their new album which is actually really good, as all we know... but! you know, for me the classic material is far far better.

For what it's worth, just curious...do you count Trial By Fire in with the "classic material" or not? or ROR? Just trying to see where you are coming from.

Anything with Steve Perry or before is classic material IMO, from the period of 1977 - 1996 is Journey's best work, and to me that's the classic stuff. Sure Trial By Fire may not be regarded as the classics I guess, but ROR has tunes in there that can be put in the Dirty Dozen (Be Good To Yourself) generally is included, I feel ROR is part of that category of classics due it's success and time period. ROR tour finished and so was Journey for at least 10 years, so ROR is definitely part of the nostalgia Journey IMO.

Why didn't Steve Perry and Lou Gramm just switch places?

Peartree12249 wrote:Why didn't Steve Perry and Lou Gramm just switch places?

Lou could not wear the tux......................

artist4perry wrote:

Peartree12249 wrote:Why didn't Steve Perry and Lou Gramm just switch places?

Lou could not wear the tux......................

Lou wouldn't be caught dead in that tux.

StoneCold wrote:

artist4perry wrote:

Peartree12249 wrote:Why didn't Steve Perry and Lou Gramm just switch places?

Lou could not wear the tux......................

Lou wouldn't be caught dead in that tux.

That's fine, I like it looks great on Steve.............

Still like Gramm too!

StoneCold wrote:

artist4perry wrote:

Peartree12249 wrote:Why didn't Steve Perry and Lou Gramm just switch places?

Lou could not wear the tux......................

Lou wouldn't be caught dead in that tux.

+1

Truthfully, that Tux episode was for all those hard-up women who have nothing better in their lives than to drool over an over-the-hill singer, who can't sing anymore - but has some of his looks left.....can't pack 'em in with my voice anymore....so let's just do this wacky tux thing and get the schizos all wet and stuff.....

StocktontoMalone wrote:Truthfully, that Tux episode was for all those hard-up women who have nothing better in their lives than to drool over an over-the-hill singer, who can't sing anymore - but has some of his looks left.....can't pack 'em in with my voice anymore....so let's just do this wacky tux thing and get the schizos all wet and stuff.....

SM..........Bite me..................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uOti9vqhH4

Take some lessons...................