MR

Things do not sound like they're going well in Journeyville.

FamilyMan wrote:Things do not sound like they're going well in Journeyville.

Creative tension and differences usually bring out the best in everyone, and canning Shirley after the atrocious job he did on Revelation isn't necessarily a bad thing. But there are certainly some red flags popping up. No one can deny that.

I agree Daniel, unless they are throwing out low expectations in the hopes that they will surpass them.

This is definitely their last effort one would think. I lay the odds at 5-2 that this Hindu shit will be their finale.

Rockindeano wrote:I agree Daniel, unless they are throwing out low expectations in the hopes that they will surpass them.

This is definitely their last effort one would think. I lay the odds at 5-2 that this Hindu shit will be their finale.

If it bombs I think it will be their finale as far as experimenting outside of the Journey "formula."

I must have missed something. Someone clue me in please.

ebake02 wrote:I must have missed something. Someone clue me in please.

Journey fired Kevin Shirley, the producer of TBF, Revelation and most of their new album. He's not mixing it.

Saint John wrote:Journey fired Kevin Shirley, the producer of TBF, Revelation and most of their new album. He's not mixing it.

I'm not sure about that. On Facebook a few months ago, KS was bitching about how their is no loyalty in this industry. My read of it is Journey stabbed him in the back and went to a different producer when KS wouldn't drop everything for them. Now they are crawling back to KS to finish the cd anyway.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

Saint John wrote:Journey fired Kevin Shirley, the producer of TBF, Revelation and most of their new album. He's not mixing it.

I'm not sure about that. On Facebook a few months ago, KS was bitching about how their is no loyalty in this industry. My read of it is Journey stabbed him in the back and went to a different producer when KS wouldn't drop everything for them. Now they are crawling back to KS to finish the cd anyway.

Yeah, it sounds like the new guy they have has enlisted help from "Cavedrunk" (love that term coined by Strangegrey ... even though i think Shirley is a good guy). But, at some point, they had deferred his services for some period of time. Perhpas that has changed now, who knows.

Saint John wrote:Yeah, it sounds like the new guy they have has enlisted help from "Cavedrunk" (love that term coined by Strangegrey ... even though i think Shirley is a good guy). But, at some point, they had deferred his services for some period of time. Perhpas that has changed now, who knows.

What struck me in the interview is how they seek Kev's advice on "where I thought the melodies should go and where this should go and where this should go." If you'll recall during Revelation, KS said he pretty much had to arrange Change for the Better from the ground up cuz it was a mess. Is he a producer or the sixth member of the band? Never thought I'd say this, but it sorta sounds like they are lost without Perry's hand at the tiller. Without Shirley to tell them what works, you wind up with another album full of Ross and Cain singing lead.

Saint John wrote:

ebake02 wrote:I must have missed something. Someone clue me in please.

Journey fired Kevin Shirley, the producer of TBF, Revelation and most of their new album. He's not mixing it.

So, in other words, Neal and Shirley wanted a heavier album and Friga wanted another album full of mushy soft rock crap. Since we all know that Friga has all the control and since he obviously can't fire Neal, Kevin got the boot. It's becoming more and more obvious that Friga has Neal's balls in jar. As for my opinion on the subject, I'd rather see a heavier album with more guitar work from Neal.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

Saint John wrote:Yeah, it sounds like the new guy they have has enlisted help from "Cavedrunk" (love that term coined by Strangegrey ... even though i think Shirley is a good guy). But, at some point, they had deferred his services for some period of time. Perhpas that has changed now, who knows.

What struck me in the interview is how they seek Kev's advice on "where I thought the melodies should go and where this should go and where this should go." If you'll recall during Revelation, KS said he pretty much had to arrange Change for the Better from the ground up cuz it was a mess. Is he a producer or the sixth member of the band? Never thought I'd say this, but it sorta sounds like they are lost without Perry's hand at the tiller. Without Shirley to tell them what works, you wind up with another album full of Ross and Cain singing lead.

That is actually what a producer does (rearrange stuff to make it good) isn't it?

brywool wrote:That is actually what a producer does (rearrange stuff to make it good) isn't it?

To some extent, sure. But KS made it sound like he co-wrote "Change for the Better", cuz it was a mess. Their only non-KS efforts, Red 13 and Generations, also could've used alot of help.

ebake02 wrote:

Saint John wrote:

ebake02 wrote:I must have missed something. Someone clue me in please.

Journey fired Kevin Shirley, the producer of TBF, Revelation and most of their new album. He's not mixing it.

So, in other words, Neal and Shirley wanted a heavier album and Friga wanted another album full of mushy soft rock crap. Since we all know that Friga has all the control and since he obviously can't fire Neal, Kevin got the boot. It's becoming more and more obvious that Friga has Neal's balls in jar. As for my opinion on the subject, I'd rather see a heavier album with more guitar work from Neal.

Neal runs Journey. I would allocate the "power" to be about a 90/10 or, at best, 80/20.

Saint John wrote:

ebake02 wrote:

Saint John wrote:

ebake02 wrote:I must have missed something. Someone clue me in please.

Journey fired Kevin Shirley, the producer of TBF, Revelation and most of their new album. He's not mixing it.

So, in other words, Neal and Shirley wanted a heavier album and Friga wanted another album full of mushy soft rock crap. Since we all know that Friga has all the control and since he obviously can't fire Neal, Kevin got the boot. It's becoming more and more obvious that Friga has Neal's balls in jar. As for my opinion on the subject, I'd rather see a heavier album with more guitar work from Neal.

Neal runs Journey. I would allocate the "power" to be about a 90/10 or, at best, 80/20.

Then why doesn't Neal use that power to put Money Whore, I mean Friga, in his place. I've noticed a lot of restraint in Neal's playing lately and Friga is probably the only one in the band who can make that happen. I'd like to see Neal shred a lot more than he does now.

There's a definite difference between the Rollie/Perry era Schon soloing vs the Perry/Cain era soloing... songwriting too... I thought the Perry/Rollie era songwriting had a better blend of melody & hard edge.... the addition of Cain definitely took the edge off their sound...

slucero wrote:There's a definite difference between the Rollie/Perry era Schon soloing vs the Perry/Cain era soloing... songwriting too... I thought the Perry/Rollie era songwriting had a better blend of melody & hard edge.... the addition of Cain definitely took the edge off their sound...

You make a very good point. They traded their edge for commercial success. I'm wondering if a more commercial friendly sound was a stipulation to get Cain to join the band. Or did Herbie have something to do with it?

Saint John wrote:

FamilyMan wrote:Things do not sound like they're going well in Journeyville.

Creative tension and differences usually bring out the best in everyone, and canning Shirley after the atrocious job he did on Revelation isn't necessarily a bad thing. But there are certainly some red flags popping up. No one can deny that.

???

Revelation sounded GREAT!!

ebake02 wrote:

Saint John wrote:

ebake02 wrote:I must have missed something. Someone clue me in please.

Journey fired Kevin Shirley, the producer of TBF, Revelation and most of their new album. He's not mixing it.

So, in other words, Neal and Shirley wanted a heavier album and Friga wanted another album full of mushy soft rock crap. Since we all know that Friga has all the control and since he obviously can't fire Neal, Kevin got the boot. It's becoming more and more obvious that Friga has Neal's balls in jar. As for my opinion on the subject, I'd rather see a heavier album with more guitar work from Neal.

Complete rubbish. The whole thing about control....this new album is said to be heavier and very much Neal's baby. That is a FACT. Trust me

Andrew wrote:

Saint John wrote:

FamilyMan wrote:Things do not sound like they're going well in Journeyville.

Creative tension and differences usually bring out the best in everyone, and canning Shirley after the atrocious job he did on Revelation isn't necessarily a bad thing. But there are certainly some red flags popping up. No one can deny that.

???

Revelation sounded GREAT!!

Ok, Tony....

S2M wrote:

Andrew wrote:

Saint John wrote:

FamilyMan wrote:Things do not sound like they're going well in Journeyville.

Creative tension and differences usually bring out the best in everyone, and canning Shirley after the atrocious job he did on Revelation isn't necessarily a bad thing. But there are certainly some red flags popping up. No one can deny that.

???

Revelation sounded GREAT!!

Ok, Tony....

Production-wise, Revelation is on par with Trial By Fire. Those are two of the best produced albums by Journey. If you don't like the tunes, that's another thing. While I love Revelation, I do think the songs sound too much alike and lack a bit of creativity. I felt like it was made in hopes to be sang at weddings, put on sound tracks and be used in corporate pep rallies, but so many albums by a lot of bands hint at that as well.

Andrew wrote:

Saint John wrote:

FamilyMan wrote:Things do not sound like they're going well in Journeyville.

Creative tension and differences usually bring out the best in everyone, and canning Shirley after the atrocious job he did on Revelation isn't necessarily a bad thing. But there are certainly some red flags popping up. No one can deny that.

???

Revelation sounded GREAT!!

I disagree. I think the drums all sounded the same. It's as if Deen had a cymbal, high hat, bass drum and one tom tom only. I can't hear any sound variance in his tom toms. It's as if the drum fills were done with one tom tom. Additionally, the backing vocals are distant and weak. They also could have been layered better. The subtle nuances that make a good album a great album just aren't there, and it's kind of a slap in the producer's face when you hear those songs live and it makes you want to throw the CD away. I get the feeling that Shirley was too worried about making Arnel sound really good and forgot about about the rest of the band. And that song he had Neal do at the end of the disc is absolutely horrible. I don't know how he deemed that worthy of release.

This new thing is gonna bomb, big time.
Why the band have to go 'heavier' is beyond me. I just do not get it.
Journey has sold millions of records doing what they do best. Changing the direction at this stage in their careers is ludicrous and Schon proves yet again that he is such a fuckin prick. I can see him now as he throws hid dummy outta the pram yet again whilst screaming ''i wanna go heavier, i wanna go heavier, i wanna go heavier'. If you wanna do something heavy Schon, then go and do another Soul SirkUS or something, and leave Journey doing what they have always done better than anyone, well almost.
I hope it sells as much as 'Generations' (10 copies worldwide) to teach you a lesson you sack of shit.
Neal Schon...FUCK YOU

WykkedSensation wrote:This new thing is gonna bomb, big time.
Why the band have to go 'heavier' is beyond me. I just do not get it.
Journey has sold millions of records doing what they do best. Changing the direction at this stage in their careers is ludicrous and Schon proves yet again that he is such a fuckin prick. I can see him now as he throws hid dummy outta the pram yet again whilst screaming ''i wanna go heavier, i wanna go heavier, i wanna go heavier'. If you wanna do something heavy Schon, then go and do another Soul SirkUS or something, and leave Journey doing what they have always done better than anyone, well almost.
I hope it sells as much as 'Generations' (10 copies worldwide) to teach you a lesson you sack of shit.
Neal Schon...FUCK YOU

Well.... since Neal is the reason this band exists to begin with, I think he should have the freedom to make whatever album he wants. They have nothing left to prove at this point in their careers so now is the perfect time to experiment. I've been waiting for a heavier album for awhile and I applaud them for finally doing one.

ebake02 wrote: Well.... since Neal is the reason this band exists to begin with, I think he should have the freedom to make whatever album he wants. They have nothing left to prove at this point in their careers so now is the perfect time to experiment. I've been waiting for a heavier album for awhile and I applaud them for finally doing one.

Same here! I've been wanting them to go heavier for a long time. I really enjoyed that Graspop concert so I'm hoping they'll go all out on this album.

WykkedSensation wrote:This new thing is gonna bomb, big time.
Why the band have to go 'heavier' is beyond me. I just do not get it.
Journey has sold millions of records doing what they do best. Changing the direction at this stage in their careers is ludicrous and Schon proves yet again that he is such a fuckin prick. I can see him now as he throws hid dummy outta the pram yet again whilst screaming ''i wanna go heavier, i wanna go heavier, i wanna go heavier'. If you wanna do something heavy Schon, then go and do another Soul SirkUS or something, and leave Journey doing what they have always done better than anyone, well almost.
I hope it sells as much as 'Generations' (10 copies worldwide) to teach you a lesson

Heavier is fine. Generations, with a producer to tighten up the arrangements and a re-write of the choruses to make them "Journey" would have been good. Compared to what the band has done in the last 15 years, Frontiers, Part 2 would be "going heavier". Chances of anything that is released getting on the radio is slim at best--and it doesn't matter who is singing. They might as well do what they want to.

The question is if the songs themselves stack up. If they do, the fans will like the album. If the songs are horrible, going heavier, going lighter, going Motown or what-have-you won't matter.

While Neal can write "heavier" stuff, I don't think he writes "heavier" stuff well. IMHO, Schon completely unfettered tends to be a bit unfocused and ramble with little in the way of hooks or the things that make popular music memorable. Cain has a way of tightening up the heavier stuff with melody, but Perry could always sell the heavier stuff in a way that few others could. So that being said, I wonder if we're in for a heavy Journey record, or a Neal Schon solo record with Arnel singing and the rest of the band just backing him up. Sort of Schon's "Raised On Radio," as someone here mentioned I think.

Jeremey wrote:While Neal can write "heavier" stuff, I don't think he writes "heavier" stuff well. IMHO, Schon completely unfettered tends to be a bit unfocused and ramble with little in the way of hooks or the things that make popular music memorable. Cain has a way of tightening up the heavier stuff with melody, but Perry could always sell the heavier stuff in a way that few others could. So that being said, I wonder if we're in for a heavy Journey record, or a Neal Schon solo record with Arnel singing and the rest of the band just backing him up. Sort of Schon's "Raised On Radio," as someone here mentioned I think.

good question, and I can't say I disagree either. As I said, Kevin Shirley's job of getting "Journey" out of Schon & Cain could be the source of some of the friction.

Question for Andrew,

Did you get the impression, either specifically or from the context of his comments, that Shirley was let go by Journey during the production of the new record, or that he either just got too tied up to finish the mixing or fed up and moved on to something else? Historically if a producer is actually "fired" from the process, they don't have their name on the finished product, but this could have been a compromise for him to come back in and clean up things at a later stage.

Jeremey wrote:While Neal can write "heavier" stuff, I don't think he writes "heavier" stuff well. IMHO, Schon completely unfettered tends to be a bit unfocused and ramble with little in the way of hooks or the things that make popular music memorable. Cain has a way of tightening up the heavier stuff with melody, but Perry could always sell the heavier stuff in a way that few others could. So that being said, I wonder if we're in for a heavy Journey record, or a Neal Schon solo record with Arnel singing and the rest of the band just backing him up. Sort of Schon's "Raised On Radio," as someone here mentioned I think.

I agree, I've noticed that his heavier stuff can be a bit sloppy at times. I'd like to see the new stuff be something along the lines of Hardline's Double Eclipse CD, I think Neal did a pretty decent job on that album.

Neal has been rockin' for 30+ years; if this a "heavier" album I would imagine it will just rock more but will still have Neal's beautiful melodies underscoring or weaving it all together... If it's anything like Late Nite, I will be thrilled!! Maybe Neal will post something vague about it (the dissension) on Facebook, lol... I am so looking forward to all of his work and a tour in 2011. Re Kevin Shirley: there are a ton of young producers out there besides KS.. I wish Neal had looked into maybe using Jim James from My Morning Jacket--young guy, tons of talent, great guitar player and writer, great rocking band. Or, who produces Neil Young? Maybe they ought to try someone new for their next album .