MR

http://www.jambase.com/Articles/Story.aspx?StoryID=26294

Already a well-established musician and member of the charting band The Babys with future solo star John Waite, Cain left to join Journey in 1981. His often-romantic keyboard work and his Manilow-esque classic pop songwriting chops shifted the band’s direction a good deal, unearthing a new audience for their mega-ballads and establishing Journey as one of the biggest acts of the 1980s.

Seriously though, so many people blast SP as turning Journey into a ballad band, and blame hime for Raised on Radio being a pop rather than a rock album, but the shift from rock to pop happened with Jon. So why the vitriol?

Arianddu wrote:http://www.jambase.com/Articles/Story.aspx?StoryID=26294

Already a well-established musician and member of the charting band The Babys with future solo star John Waite, Cain left to join Journey in 1981. His often-romantic keyboard work and his Manilow-esque classic pop songwriting chops shifted the band’s direction a good deal, unearthing a new audience for their mega-ballads and establishing Journey as one of the biggest acts of the 1980s.

Seriously though, so many people blast SP as turning Journey into a ballad band, and blame hime for Raised on Radio being a pop rather than a rock album, but the shift from rock to pop happened with Jon. So why the vitriol?

So the Neal lovers can continue to claim that Journey is his band....

Arianddu wrote:http://www.jambase.com/Articles/Story.aspx?StoryID=26294

Already a well-established musician and member of the charting band The Babys with future solo star John Waite, Cain left to join Journey in 1981. His often-romantic keyboard work and his Manilow-esque classic pop songwriting chops shifted the band’s direction a good deal, unearthing a new audience for their mega-ballads and establishing Journey as one of the biggest acts of the 1980s.

Barry Manilow played in Vegas right before Journey, and Crazy Deb went to see him! If I'd have known, I might have joined up.

well whatever his "makeup" he was a person who always downplayed his singing,
and wrote / recorded some pretty good tunes, to be compared to him as a pianist/
songwriter shouldnt be an insult!

Rip Rokken wrote:

Arianddu wrote:http://www.jambase.com/Articles/Story.aspx?StoryID=26294

Already a well-established musician and member of the charting band The Babys with future solo star John Waite, Cain left to join Journey in 1981. His often-romantic keyboard work and his Manilow-esque classic pop songwriting chops shifted the band’s direction a good deal, unearthing a new audience for their mega-ballads and establishing Journey as one of the biggest acts of the 1980s.

Barry Manilow played in Vegas right before Journey, and Crazy Deb went to see him! If I'd have known, I might have joined up.

Me too! That man made some great music.

A little trivia - Barry Manilow sued and was victorious againt George Michael for incorporating some of the melodies from 'Can't Smile Without You' into 'Last Christmas'.

Don wrote:A little trivia - Barry Manilow sued and was victorious againt George Michael for incorporating some of the melodies from 'Can't Smile Without You' into 'Last Christmas'.

Suing inside the community? Interesting.

Rick wrote:

Don wrote:A little trivia - Barry Manilow sued and was victorious againt George Michael for incorporating some of the melodies from 'Can't Smile Without You' into 'Last Christmas'.

Suing inside the community? Interesting.

I think Georgie boy and Elton have more in common. You can't even keep your turd burglars straight!

Arianddu wrote:Seriously though, so many people blast SP as turning Journey into a ballad band, and blame hime for Raised on Radio being a pop rather than a rock album, but the shift from rock to pop happened with Jon. So why the vitriol?

Jonathan has a songwriting credit on EVERY JOURNEY SONG from Escape to Arrival. So, he had a hand in writing the harder songs as well as the ballads. That is just a simple FACT. I think Jonathan could write any 'style' of music he wanted to..but that's just my opinion.

Adding Perry took the band into a more 'pop' direction. That brought the band some success...but not over-the-top success. That did not come until Jonathan was added to the band. Again, that is a FACT.

Perry should take responsibility for EVERYTHING that happened with ROR because he took over the band. He produced, he directed the songwriting, he fired and picked the replacements for Ross and Steve Smith, he chose the artwork, he chose the album title. HE controlled ROR...and should take responsibility for all of the negativity that surrounded it. HE put his own face in the atmosphere and had it scorched on reentry and burned himself out. Nobody forced him to do it - he made that decision himself.

What turned Journey into a 'ballad' band are listeners who only remember Journey for those ballads. Since the TBF reunion, they also want a hit single....and it is easier to have a hit single with a ballad then it is with a rock song. It is easier to have a hit with "When You Love a Woman" and "All These Years" then anything I have heard off of Eclipse because rock radio will not really play it. Again, that is just a simple fact.

Monker wrote:

Arianddu wrote:Seriously though, so many people blast SP as turning Journey into a ballad band, and blame hime for Raised on Radio being a pop rather than a rock album, but the shift from rock to pop happened with Jon. So why the vitriol?

Jonathan has a songwriting credit on EVERY JOURNEY SONG from Escape to Arrival. So, he had a hand in writing the harder songs as well as the ballads. That is just a simple FACT. I think Jonathan could write any 'style' of music he wanted to..but that's just my opinion.

Adding Perry took the band into a more 'pop' direction. That brought the band some success...but not over-the-top success. That did not come until Jonathan was added to the band. Again, that is a FACT.

Perry should take responsibility for EVERYTHING that happened with ROR because he took over the band. He produced, he directed the songwriting, he fired and picked the replacements for Ross and Steve Smith, he chose the artwork, he chose the album title. HE controlled ROR...and should take responsibility for all of the negativity that surrounded it. HE put his own face in the atmosphere and had it scorched on reentry and burned himself out. Nobody forced him to do it - he made that decision himself.

What turned Journey into a 'ballad' band are listeners who only remember Journey for those ballads. Since the TBF reunion, they also want a hit single....and it is easier to have a hit single with a ballad then it is with a rock song. It is easier to have a hit with "When You Love a Woman" and "All These Years" then anything I have heard off of Eclipse because rock radio will not really play it. Again, that is just a simple fact.

Hey, CHILL! Sheesh! Like I said, why the vitriol? I wasn't dismissing or downplaying anything JC contributed to Journey's career, I just wondered why SP carried so much shit for the shift from rock to pop, when Jon is just as much a part of that.

Talk about reading your own agenda into something! But you did kinda prove my point...

Arianddu wrote:

Monker wrote:

Arianddu wrote:Seriously though, so many people blast SP as turning Journey into a ballad band, and blame hime for Raised on Radio being a pop rather than a rock album, but the shift from rock to pop happened with Jon. So why the vitriol?

Jonathan has a songwriting credit on EVERY JOURNEY SONG from Escape to Arrival. So, he had a hand in writing the harder songs as well as the ballads. That is just a simple FACT. I think Jonathan could write any 'style' of music he wanted to..but that's just my opinion.

Adding Perry took the band into a more 'pop' direction. That brought the band some success...but not over-the-top success. That did not come until Jonathan was added to the band. Again, that is a FACT.

Perry should take responsibility for EVERYTHING that happened with ROR because he took over the band. He produced, he directed the songwriting, he fired and picked the replacements for Ross and Steve Smith, he chose the artwork, he chose the album title. HE controlled ROR...and should take responsibility for all of the negativity that surrounded it. HE put his own face in the atmosphere and had it scorched on reentry and burned himself out. Nobody forced him to do it - he made that decision himself.What turned Journey into a 'ballad' band are listeners who only remember Journey for those ballads. Since the TBF reunion, they also want a hit single....and it is easier to have a hit single with a ballad then it is with a rock song. It is easier to have a hit with "When You Love a Woman" and "All These Years" then anything I have heard off of Eclipse because rock radio will not really play it. Again, that is just a simple fact.

Hey, CHILL! Sheesh! Like I said, why the vitriol? I wasn't dismissing or downplaying anything JC contributed to Journey's career, I just wondered why SP carried so much shit for the shift from rock to pop, when Jon is just as much a part of that.

Talk about reading your own agenda into something! But you did kinda prove my point...

I think he explained fairly well in the highlighted paragraph above why "SP carried so much shit for the shift from rock to pop". While Cain definitely brought more of a mainstream ballad writing style to the band, I do not believe that he turned them pop. Escape and Frontiers were not "pop" albums. The majority of ROR was "pop". No vitriol, just saying.

Don wrote:A little trivia - Barry Manilow sued and was victorious againt George Michael for incorporating some of the melodies from 'Can't Smile Without You' into 'Last Christmas'.

Did not know this ...but I can hear it, yes!!



ROR was great!!

Arianddu wrote:Hey, CHILL! Sheesh! Like I said, why the vitriol? I wasn't dismissing or downplaying anything JC contributed to Journey's career, I just wondered why SP carried so much shit for the shift from rock to pop, when Jon is just as much a part of that.

If you consider: Don't Stop Believin, Separate Ways, Stone In Love, and the entire "B" side of Frontiers a 'shift to pop', then I agree with you....and it is the entire band, and Herbie, who should take "responsibility" for those songs on those albums, and those prior to Jonathan joining. But, if you are talking about the shift from that style of music towards Journey influenced by 50's pop and Street Talk, then it is solely Perry who should take responsibility.

Talk about reading your own agenda into something! But you did kinda prove my point...

I don't have an 'agenda', really. However, I will argue the point that Perry should take responsibility for ROR and all of the negativity that surrounded it. i will also argue the point about Jonathan turning the band into soft pop, he didn't...in fact, sappy ballads were there before he joined...he just elevated the songwriting - in ALL styles of Journey music.

Monker wrote:Jonathan has a songwriting credit on EVERY JOURNEY SONG from Escape to Arrival. So, he had a hand in writing the harder songs as well as the ballads. That is just a simple FACT. I think Jonathan could write any 'style' of music he wanted to..but that's just my opinion.

Perry had a hand in writing the harder songs too. Fact.

Perry should take responsibility for EVERYTHING that happened with ROR because he took over the band. He produced, he directed the songwriting, he fired and picked the replacements for Ross and Steve Smith, he chose the artwork, he chose the album title. HE controlled ROR...and should take responsibility for all of the negativity that surrounded it. HE put his own face in the atmosphere and had it scorched on reentry and burned himself out. Nobody forced him to do it - he made that decision himself.

You make Cain and Schon sound so passive and pathetic. Yes, Perry produced the album and he was responsible for the 50's pop influence on one or two tracks. But Cain and Schon co-wrote the material on this record so some of the 'responsibility' (I'd actually say 'credit') is theirs too.

I'd say that Journey would have had disappointing album sales in 1986 (and ever since) no matter what they did. This was a band that had peaked five years earlier and times were changing. No band which enjoyed success during AOR's golden age of 1975-1986 were able to sustain it. Boston, Foreigner, REO...right through to Michael McDonald and Kenny Loggins...All of them went downhill commercially in the second half of the 80s and none of them recovered the lost ground.

Totally agree with your point though that it's a myth that Cain was just the ballad guy.

Matthew wrote:I'd say that Journey would have had disappointing album sales in 1986 (and ever since) no matter what they did. This was a band that had peaked five years earlier and times were changing. No band which enjoyed success during AOR's golden age of 1975-1986 were able to sustain it. Boston, Foreigner, REO...right through to Michael McDonald and Kenny Loggins...All of them went downhill commercially in the second half of the 80s and none of them recovered the lost ground.

What about Def Leppard? They seemed to do ok with Hysteria. Had Journey not released a sluggish Motown meets Street Talk album, I think the AOR climate was perfect for a huge selling album. Bon Jovi did it with Slippery When Wet and Def Leppard did it with Hysteria. Journey was hijacked by Perry and his directional change was roundly rejected by the fans.

Saint John wrote:

Matthew wrote:I'd say that Journey would have had disappointing album sales in 1986 (and ever since) no matter what they did. This was a band that had peaked five years earlier and times were changing. No band which enjoyed success during AOR's golden age of 1975-1986 were able to sustain it. Boston, Foreigner, REO...right through to Michael McDonald and Kenny Loggins...All of them went downhill commercially in the second half of the 80s and none of them recovered the lost ground.

What about Def Leppard? They seemed to do ok with Hysteria. Had Journey not released a sluggish Motown meets Street Talk album, I think the AOR climate was perfect for a huge selling album. Bon Jovi did it with Slippery When Wet and Def Leppard did it with Hysteria. Journey was hijacked by Perry and his directional change was roundly rejected by the fans.

Half that album was classic, St. Joan...

Saint John wrote:

Matthew wrote:I'd say that Journey would have had disappointing album sales in 1986 (and ever since) no matter what they did. This was a band that had peaked five years earlier and times were changing. No band which enjoyed success during AOR's golden age of 1975-1986 were able to sustain it. Boston, Foreigner, REO...right through to Michael McDonald and Kenny Loggins...All of them went downhill commercially in the second half of the 80s and none of them recovered the lost ground.

What about Def Leppard? They seemed to do ok with Hysteria. Had Journey not released a sluggish Motown meets Street Talk album, I think the AOR climate was perfect for a huge selling album. Bon Jovi did it with Slippery When Wet and Def Leppard did it with Hysteria. Journey was hijacked by Perry and his directional change was roundly rejected by the fans.

Exactly, Hysteria came out in '87 and had single after single released for about 18 months, and is their best selling album. They did great with that album and tour.

Melissa wrote:

Saint John wrote:

Matthew wrote:I'd say that Journey would have had disappointing album sales in 1986 (and ever since) no matter what they did. This was a band that had peaked five years earlier and times were changing. No band which enjoyed success during AOR's golden age of 1975-1986 were able to sustain it. Boston, Foreigner, REO...right through to Michael McDonald and Kenny Loggins...All of them went downhill commercially in the second half of the 80s and none of them recovered the lost ground.

What about Def Leppard? They seemed to do ok with Hysteria. Had Journey not released a sluggish Motown meets Street Talk album, I think the AOR climate was perfect for a huge selling album. Bon Jovi did it with Slippery When Wet and Def Leppard did it with Hysteria. Journey was hijacked by Perry and his directional change was roundly rejected by the fans.

Exactly, Hysteria came out in '87 and had single after single released for about 18 months, and is their best selling album. They did great with that album and tour.

Yup. I've said it before and I'll say it again; Journey helped invent and define the classic AOR sound and their lead singer decided to abandon it at its apex, and that cost them millions of dollars and fans. Their fans defected to Bon Jovi and Def Leppard and that helped Slippery When Wet and Hysteria garner Diamond status, while ROR sold 1/5 of what those albums did.

Saint John wrote:Journey helped invent and define the classic AOR sound and their lead singer decided to abandon it at its apex, and that cost them millions of dollars and fans.

Dude, you sound like Neil's lawyer.

RedWingFan wrote:

Saint John wrote:Journey helped invent and define the classic AOR sound and their lead singer decided to abandon it at its apex, and that cost them millions of dollars and fans.

Dude, you sound like Neil's lawyer.

... or a person making an observation about as simple as 2+2=4.

Saint John wrote:

RedWingFan wrote:

Saint John wrote:Journey helped invent and define the classic AOR sound and their lead singer decided to abandon it at its apex, and that cost them millions of dollars and fans.

Dude, you sound like Neil's lawyer.

... or a person making an observation about as simple as 2+2=4.

Except when 2+2=5

S2M wrote:

Saint John wrote:

RedWingFan wrote:

Saint John wrote:Journey helped invent and define the classic AOR sound and their lead singer decided to abandon it at its apex, and that cost them millions of dollars and fans.

Dude, you sound like Neil's lawyer.

... or a person making an observation about as simple as 2+2=4.

Except when 2+2=5

But it doesn't ... ever.

Saint John wrote:

S2M wrote:

Saint John wrote:

RedWingFan wrote:

Saint John wrote:Journey helped invent and define the classic AOR sound and their lead singer decided to abandon it at its apex, and that cost them millions of dollars and fans.

Dude, you sound like Neil's lawyer.

... or a person making an observation about as simple as 2+2=4.

Except when 2+2=5

But it doesn't ... ever.

Ever hear the phrase, 'The Whole is greater than the sum of it's parts'? It's the basis for Gestalt Psychology, and the concept of Emergence....I suggest reading up on it....

S2M wrote:

Saint John wrote:

S2M wrote:

Saint John wrote:

RedWingFan wrote:

Saint John wrote:Journey helped invent and define the classic AOR sound and their lead singer decided to abandon it at its apex, and that cost them millions of dollars and fans.

Dude, you sound like Neil's lawyer.

... or a person making an observation about as simple as 2+2=4.

Except when 2+2=5

But it doesn't ... ever.

Ever hear the phrase, 'The Whole is greater than the sum of it's parts'? It's the basis for Gestalt Psychology, and the concept of Emergence....I suggest reading up on it....

That's arguable in psychology or philosophy, but not in mathematical logic. Trying to act smarter than you actually are clearly isn't your forte. You're dismissed.

Saint John wrote:

Matthew wrote:I'd say that Journey would have had disappointing album sales in 1986 (and ever since) no matter what they did. This was a band that had peaked five years earlier and times were changing. No band which enjoyed success during AOR's golden age of 1975-1986 were able to sustain it. Boston, Foreigner, REO...right through to Michael McDonald and Kenny Loggins...All of them went downhill commercially in the second half of the 80s and none of them recovered the lost ground.

What about Def Leppard? They seemed to do ok with Hysteria. Had Journey not released a sluggish Motown meets Street Talk album, I think the AOR climate was perfect for a huge selling album. Bon Jovi did it with Slippery When Wet and Def Leppard did it with Hysteria. Journey was hijacked by Perry and his directional change was roundly rejected by the fans.

Journey wasn't a hairband, that was right in the era of the hardrock hairbands so either way I don't think ROR would have sold as well as the up and coming heavier hard rock at the time. LOL, just gotta love how everything is always Perry's fault, even though Perry is probably the only Journey member to every publicly apologize for mistakes/bad decisions he's made.

And Matthew, welcome back stranger.

Well....let's see. You were using a mathematical construct to explain a non-mathematical concept...so i'm fully within my right to use it that way. You weren't talking about math, Dan....

Deb wrote:

Saint John wrote:

Matthew wrote:I'd say that Journey would have had disappointing album sales in 1986 (and ever since) no matter what they did. This was a band that had peaked five years earlier and times were changing. No band which enjoyed success during AOR's golden age of 1975-1986 were able to sustain it. Boston, Foreigner, REO...right through to Michael McDonald and Kenny Loggins...All of them went downhill commercially in the second half of the 80s and none of them recovered the lost ground.

What about Def Leppard? They seemed to do ok with Hysteria. Had Journey not released a sluggish Motown meets Street Talk album, I think the AOR climate was perfect for a huge selling album. Bon Jovi did it with Slippery When Wet and Def Leppard did it with Hysteria. Journey was hijacked by Perry and his directional change was roundly rejected by the fans.

Journey wasn't a hairband, that was right in the era of the hardrock hairbands so either way I don't think ROR would have sold as well as the up and coming heavier hard rock at the time. LOL, just gotta love how everything is always Perry's fault, even though Perry is probably the only Journey member to every publicly apologize for mistakes/bad decisions he's made.

And Matthew, welcome back stranger.

Well Def Leppard wasn't a hair band either..... just ask Joe Elliott

S2M wrote:Well....let's see. You were using a mathematical construct to explain a non-mathematical concept...so i'm fully within my right to use it that way. You weren't talking about math, Dan....

Wrong again. I wasn't using it to "explain" anything. I was making light of how obvious the prior statement was. You're in such a frenzy to show off your intelliegence that you're constantly using it erroneously. Time for Greta. Night night.

Saint John wrote:

S2M wrote:Well....let's see. You were using a mathematical construct to explain a non-mathematical concept...so i'm fully within my right to use it that way. You weren't talking about math, Dan....

Wrong again. I wasn't using it to "explain" anything. I was making light of how obvious the prior statement was. You're in such a frenzy to show off your intelliegence that you're constantly using it erroneously. Time for Greta. Night night.

Yep, my intelligence....

S2M wrote:

Saint John wrote:

S2M wrote:Well....let's see. You were using a mathematical construct to explain a non-mathematical concept...so i'm fully within my right to use it that way. You weren't talking about math, Dan....

Wrong again. I wasn't using it to "explain" anything. I was making light of how obvious the prior statement was. You're in such a frenzy to show off your intelliegence that you're constantly using it erroneously. Time for Greta. Night night.

Yep, my intelligence....

I find it ironic that a guy that can't properly pronounce words like "car" and bar" (words you learn when you're 2) has the audacity to challenge anyone's intelligence.