MR

Sorry, the more I hear from him the more I just can't stand it. Not sure I can put my finger on what, exactly.

I can tell you what's wrong, in my opinion, with the Journey mixes. The vocals are so narrow (I'm not a tech guy as it relates to music). When you listen to older Journey, the vocals sound like they surround you. With the new stuff, it sounds like every other rock group out there. I was thinking Human Feel sounded like a Tommy Shaw vocal. I like Tommy, but the way he sounds at times is annoying. It’s the mix.

I also have a real problem with the way the drums are mixed. To me, those old 30 year old Journey records are far superior as it relates to mixing.

My apologies to Kevin if it was the other guy that did these mixes. But one listen to Black Country Communion tells me all I need. That mixes blows hard. Great stuff – could have been stellar. But it seems a mess to me. Not sure Kevin mixed that either, but as producer, I blame him

As far as the two Journey singles – City of Hope (cheesy as the lyrics are) seem to be another attempt to release the same damn song as the last bunch of lead singles. This one is the best, music wise in my opinion. But nothing new. Human Feel sounds like a step in some direction and I think I’d like it a lot more if the vocal and drum mix didn’t bug the hell out of me. Always good to hear Neal though.

Memorex wrote:Sorry, the more I hear from him the more I just can't stand it. Not sure I can put my finger on what, exactly.

I can tell you what's wrong, in my opinion, with the Journey mixes. The vocals are so narrow (I'm not a tech guy as it relates to music). When you listen to older Journey, the vocals sound like they surround you. With the new stuff, it sounds like every other rock group out there. I was thinking Human Feel sounded like a Tommy Shaw vocal. I like Tommy, but the way he sounds at times is annoying. It’s the mix.

I also have a real problem with the way the drums are mixed. To me, those old 30 year old Journey records are far superior as it relates to mixing.

My apologies to Kevin if it was the other guy that did these mixes. But one listen to Black Country Communion tells me all I need. That mixes blows hard. Great stuff – could have been stellar. But it seems a mess to me. Not sure Kevin mixed that either, but as producer, I blame him

As far as the two Journey singles – City of Hope (cheesy as the lyrics are) seem to be another attempt to release the same damn song as the last bunch of lead singles. This one is the best, music wise in my opinion. But nothing new. Human Feel sounds like a step in some direction and I think I’d like it a lot more if the vocal and drum mix didn’t bug the hell out of me. Always good to hear Neal though.

Most, if not all, of the album was mixed by a guy named David Kalmusky.

As far as KS is concerned. I've always thought that Kevin Elson is a better producer.

Journey/Survivor wrote:

Memorex wrote:Sorry, the more I hear from him the more I just can't stand it. Not sure I can put my finger on what, exactly.

I can tell you what's wrong, in my opinion, with the Journey mixes. The vocals are so narrow (I'm not a tech guy as it relates to music). When you listen to older Journey, the vocals sound like they surround you. With the new stuff, it sounds like every other rock group out there. I was thinking Human Feel sounded like a Tommy Shaw vocal. I like Tommy, but the way he sounds at times is annoying. It’s the mix.

I also have a real problem with the way the drums are mixed. To me, those old 30 year old Journey records are far superior as it relates to mixing.

My apologies to Kevin if it was the other guy that did these mixes. But one listen to Black Country Communion tells me all I need. That mixes blows hard. Great stuff – could have been stellar. But it seems a mess to me. Not sure Kevin mixed that either, but as producer, I blame him

As far as the two Journey singles – City of Hope (cheesy as the lyrics are) seem to be another attempt to release the same damn song as the last bunch of lead singles. This one is the best, music wise in my opinion. But nothing new. Human Feel sounds like a step in some direction and I think I’d like it a lot more if the vocal and drum mix didn’t bug the hell out of me. Always good to hear Neal though.

Most, if not all, of the album was mixed by a guy named David Kalmusky.

As far as KS is concerned. I've always thought that Kevin Elson is a better producer.

David Kalmusky blows!

I know nothing about production, but to my novice ears Escape and Arrival are the best produced albums. Revelation and Red13 are horrible, and I'm on the fence with Frontiers (love the cold stark sound, but it's also tinny and hollow....it both works and leaves me wanting a fully sound for some songs).

Wow, and I'd say the exact polar opposite, the last few records sounded pretty bad, and narrow, mono, lo fi, over compressed, these new clips sound better then anything in my iTunes. It is true, they don't sound ANYTHING like 30 year old mixes, but in the modern age, it sounds incredible, and most of the people here have gone out of their way to talk about how great the quality of this new stuff sounds. I think Kevin Shirley, Neal, Jon and that Kalmusky guy did an incredible job, thatnls to the MP3 posters on here, I get to hear it against all of the other records in my iTunes collection INCLUDING classic Journey, and it sounds BETTER then most of the stuff... U2, Foo Fighters, AND previous Journey.

superreverb wrote:Wow, and I'd say the exact polar opposite, the last few records sounded pretty bad, and narrow, mono, lo fi, over compressed, these new clips sound better then anything in my iTunes. It is true, they don't sound ANYTHING like 30 year old mixes, but in the modern age, it sounds incredible, and most of the people here have gone out of their way to talk about how great the quality of this new stuff sounds. I think Kevin Shirley, Neal, Jon and that Kalmusky guy did an incredible job, thatnls to the MP3 posters on here, I get to hear it against all of the other records in my iTunes collection INCLUDING classic Journey, and it sounds BETTER then most of the stuff... U2, Foo Fighters, AND previous Journey.

Keep in mind I am talking mostly about vocals and drums and I'm sorry but the vocals don't sound as full as past stuff. Now I will say that most music out in the past 10 years is like this. It is not just a Journey problem. But Journey used to stand out as a notch above in that area. So it's disappointing that they have become like other bands out there. Arnel. Should just be filling the headphones more. And the symbols should surround me - all the drums should. That's what I got with the old Journey. You know, when they took more than 48 hours to mix an album.

It can be done though. Rick Springfield comes to mind as one of the few still making it sound full.

Memorex, i don't mean to be disrespectful, but I feel like your description of "Should" - is whats happening here, the Vocals sound HUGE, layered in the same kind of treatment of Perry's old vocal, Arnel sounds SOOOO much larger then life then on Revelation (That was flat, and dull) and I feel like the drums are huge, and the cymbals wide, and surrounding me.

I just put Escape, and Frontiers on, and the 80's production is SO DIFFERENT I can't really compare, it sounds mono, dead and tiny in comparison.

Journey/Survivor wrote:Most, if not all, of the album was mixed by a guy named David Kalmusky.

Wasn't there a blurb somewhere that said that KS made a couple mixes for Kalmusky/Schon & Co to use as templates or examples for the entire album? This new Nashville guy is supposed to be quite the hotshot, but if the album still says 'Produced by KS', then give credit where credit is due.


later~

superreverb wrote:Memorex, i don't mean to be disrespectful, but I feel like your description of "Should" - is whats happening here, the Vocals sound HUGE, layered in the same kind of treatment of Perry's old vocal, Arnel sounds SOOOO much larger then life then on Revelation (That was flat, and dull) and I feel like the drums are huge, and the cymbals wide, and surrounding me.

I just put Escape, and Frontiers on, and the 80's production is SO DIFFERENT I can't really compare, it sounds mono, dead and tiny in comparison.

Let's agree to disagree, at least for Human Feel. I'm not feeling the vocal mix. Does sound a lot better int he car than the headphones though.

Memorex wrote:
Let's agree to disagree, at least for Human Feel. I'm not feeling the vocal mix. Does sound a lot better int he car than the headphones though.

Sure Memorex, we'll agree to disagree, I wasn't finding you disrespectful, so I was careful to disclaim, "No means of Disrespect"

Lots of differing opinions here, some love the vocal sound, some flat out hate Arnel, I've COH in a Shuffle Playlist with some Halen, U2, Muse, Foo Fighters, (I do admit all new "Production Records" ) and this new Journey track sounds "Deeper" and more full, with vocals pretty out front, and soaring - this track sonically (Even if I am unsure of the tune itself) is kind of dwarfing most of the other tracks.

Again, totally not being an asshole, or disrespectful ... but I just listened in headphones... it sounds really good to me... if it actually sounds good in your car (I'll have to put it on CD for my driving music) is there any chance your headphones got trashed? Really just curious, thats all, only because we have differing opinions.

I'm curious to hear it in my car.

So far it definitely sounds a lot better than Revelation. I think the thing people are picking up on with the vocals is that Arnel's tracks are pretty "dry." Perry was a big fan of tracking his vocals with a lot of delay and/or reverb, giving you that echoey sound that really filled the track. My guess is that they leave the vocal tracks a little drier to get a more modern sound, as heavy delay/reverb is a sound instantly associated with the 80s.

I was listening to TBF and couldn't believe how soft drums were. New one really smacks hard.

Andrew wrote:I was listening to TBF and couldn't believe how soft drums were. New one really smacks hard.

The material on TBF was better suited with softer drums.

Forgive me for my lack of tech knowledge and terminology. There are exceptions, but I have found new music (last 10 years or so as mentioned above) seems to have a "quieter" sound to it. Using an analogy, remember back in the cassette days and dolby noise reduction first came out. You could press that little "Dolby NR" button on you deck and it would change the sound ever so slightly. I always felt it "muffled" the sound and preferred listening without Dolby. That is kind of the feeling I get from alot of rock music produced in the last decade or so. Again, it is all a preference thing I suppose. Does this make sense to anyone? Maybe not.

SF-Dano wrote:Forgive me for my lack of tech knowledge and terminology. There are exceptions, but I have found new music (last 10 years or so as mentioned above) seems to have a "quieter" sound to it. Using an analogy, remember back in the cassette days and dolby noise reduction first came out. You could press that little "Dolby NR" button on you deck and it would change the sound ever so slightly. I always felt it "muffled" the sound and preferred listening without Dolby. That is kind of the feeling I get from alot of rock music produced in the last decade or so. Again, it is all a preference thing I suppose. Does this make sense to anyone? Maybe not.

Yea. I agree. I always assumed it was because there arensommany more smaller independent productions.

The sonic on this album will be the best Journey has ever had. Period. However, what *I'm* missing, and I assume most Journey fans are as well, are the big, in your fucking face and/or catchy choruses. Chain Of Love and resonate seem to have that, but the first 2 songs either don't or the poor quality of the files isn't conveying them properly. And for the love of God, release the song Tantra!

Saint John wrote:The sonic on this album will be the best Journey has ever had. Period. However, what *I'm* missing, and I assume most Journey fans are as well, are the big, in your fucking face and/or catchy choruses. Chain Of Love and resonate seem to have that, but the first 2 songs either don't or the poor quality of the files isn't conveying them properly. And for the love of God, release the song Tantra!

Both of the downloads from Frontiers Italy were high bit rate rips so I don't think the quality is going to be that much noticeable on the CD for the average listener.

When you realize that both songs have over a minute of Neal's guitar work edited out, it becomes quite apparent that rousing choruses and catchy hooks are not going to be of the highest priority for this release.
Steve had ROR and Jon pretty much everything else post Captured era (we just won't count Generations)
Now Neal has Eclipse.

Saint John wrote:The sonic on this album will be the best Journey has ever had. Period.

Not true from the two we have heard so far, in my opinion. Guess we'll have to see how the rest sounds. I'm not holding my breath based on the last bunch and these first 2 singles.

The best producer Journey ever had was Mike Stone. I enter Journey's Escape as exibit A. It seems like nobody knows what became of him, even Neal said he'd like to know that, back on the old back talk forum. That being said, I'm optomistic about the new guy (Kulmsky?) because he seems to care more about getting it perfect. In fairness, he did have to start with what Shirley handed him, so I don't know if perfection will be possible. Not that Shirley is the worst, but no way is he the best. I enter Arrival, Trial by Fire, and Revelation as exibits B, C, and D.

Majestic wrote:The best producer Journey ever had was Mike Stone. I enter Journey's Escape as exibit A. It seems like nobody knows what became of him, even Neal said he'd like to know that, back on the old back talk forum. That being said, I'm optomistic about the new guy (Kulmsky?) because he seems to care more about getting it perfect. In fairness, he did have to start with what Shirley handed him, so I don't know if perfection will be possible. Not that Shirley is the worst, but no way is he the best. I enter Arrival, Trial by Fire, and Revelation as exibits B, C, and D.

Kevin Elson was a producer on that too. Mike Stone passed away in 2002.

Andrew wrote:I was listening to TBF

Sorry. Depressed today?

Memorex wrote:

SF-Dano wrote:Forgive me for my lack of tech knowledge and terminology. There are exceptions, but I have found new music (last 10 years or so as mentioned above) seems to have a "quieter" sound to it. Using an analogy, remember back in the cassette days and dolby noise reduction first came out. You could press that little "Dolby NR" button on you deck and it would change the sound ever so slightly. I always felt it "muffled" the sound and preferred listening without Dolby. That is kind of the feeling I get from alot of rock music produced in the last decade or so. Again, it is all a preference thing I suppose. Does this make sense to anyone? Maybe not.

Yea. I agree. I always assumed it was because there arensommany more smaller independent productions.

"The argument now is that Record companies are using digital technology to turn the volume on CDs up to “11”
Peak limiting has now become an overused technique that removes the dynamic range of a recording, making everything sound loud.
It squeezes the sound range to one level, removing the peaks and troughs that would normally separate a quieter verse from a pumping chorus.
The process takes place at mastering, the final stage before a track is prepared for release. In the days of vinyl, the needle would jump out of the groove if a track was too loud.
But today musical details, including vocals and snare drums, are lost in the blare and many CD players respond to the frequency challenge by adding a buzzing, distorted sound to tracks."

Don wrote:

Memorex wrote:

SF-Dano wrote:Forgive me for my lack of tech knowledge and terminology. There are exceptions, but I have found new music (last 10 years or so as mentioned above) seems to have a "quieter" sound to it. Using an analogy, remember back in the cassette days and dolby noise reduction first came out. You could press that little "Dolby NR" button on you deck and it would change the sound ever so slightly. I always felt it "muffled" the sound and preferred listening without Dolby. That is kind of the feeling I get from alot of rock music produced in the last decade or so. Again, it is all a preference thing I suppose. Does this make sense to anyone? Maybe not.

Yea. I agree. I always assumed it was because there arensommany more smaller independent productions.

"The argument now is that Record companies are using digital technology to turn the volume on CDs up to “11”
Peak limiting has now become an overused technique that removes the dynamic range of a recording, making everything sound loud.
It squeezes the sound range to one level, removing the peaks and troughs that would normally separate a quieter verse from a pumping chorus.
The process takes place at mastering, the final stage before a track is prepared for release. In the days of vinyl, the needle would jump out of the groove if a track was too loud.
But today musical details, including vocals and snare drums, are lost in the blare and many CD players respond to the frequency challenge by adding a buzzing, distorted sound to tracks."

I'll use the RUSH album, Vapor Trails as exhibit A for this concept....clipping galore on this release.....horrible.

I've not heard the new record yet so I can't comment on it's mix. However, I do think the early records with Perry were the best mixed and produced records. Those deep, knock your socks off vocals are due to boat loads of layering along with dynamic mixing. I love the layered vocals off the early records, especially when the whole band would sing, like on Evolution. Roy Thomas Baker mixed and produced Infinity and Evolution. The mix on both of those records are my favorites by far.

The only band I've found that has that type of vib in the mix now is Goodbye Thrill.

S2M wrote:
I'll use the RUSH album, Vapor Trails as exhibit A for this concept....clipping galore on this release.....horrible.

Horrible production on that Rush cd...At least the remixes on the latests best of cd was better.

everything now is over compressed, and im not a fan of ks past work, altough i did like arrival, in his defense, i think the digital boards are a major reason, and with journey footing the bill for the last 3 or 4 cds im sure the budget was smaller than in the past. i hope this one is similar to the mr big record he just did

crash wrote:

Majestic wrote:The best producer Journey ever had was Mike Stone. I enter Journey's Escape as exibit A. It seems like nobody knows what became of him, even Neal said he'd like to know that, back on the old back talk forum. That being said, I'm optomistic about the new guy (Kulmsky?) because he seems to care more about getting it perfect. In fairness, he did have to start with what Shirley handed him, so I don't know if perfection will be possible. Not that Shirley is the worst, but no way is he the best. I enter Arrival, Trial by Fire, and Revelation as exibits B, C, and D.

Kevin Elson was a producer on that too. Mike Stone passed away in 2002.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_%22Clay%22_Stone

1981 Journey - Escape, Producer Kevin The album was co-produced by former Lynyrd Skynyrd soundman Kevin Elson and one-time Queen engineer Mike Stone, who also engineered the album.

The real key to any really good album/cd was who Mastered it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Ludwig You can have the best Produced product in the world and the Mastering Process can kill it. Bob Ludwig is The BEST. http://albumcredits.com/Profile/99898#/Profile/Artists/99898

That's it for the lesson

Saint John wrote:The sonic on this album will be the best Journey has ever had. Period. However, what *I'm* missing, and I assume most Journey fans are as well, are the big, in your fucking face and/or catchy choruses. Chain Of Love and resonate seem to have that, but the first 2 songs either don't or the poor quality of the files isn't conveying them properly. And for the love of God, release the song Tantra!

Tantra is beyond massive.

Anything is Possible is catchy Journey at their best.

Memorex wrote:Sorry, the more I hear from him the more I just can't stand it. Not sure I can put my finger on what, exactly.

I can tell you what's wrong, in my opinion, with the Journey mixes. The vocals are so narrow (I'm not a tech guy as it relates to music). When you listen to older Journey, the vocals sound like they surround you. With the new stuff, it sounds like every other rock group out there. I was thinking Human Feel sounded like a Tommy Shaw vocal. I like Tommy, but the way he sounds at times is annoying. It’s the mix.

I also have a real problem with the way the drums are mixed. To me, those old 30 year old Journey records are far superior as it relates to mixing.

My apologies to Kevin if it was the other guy that did these mixes. But one listen to Black Country Communion tells me all I need. That mixes blows hard. Great stuff – could have been stellar. But it seems a mess to me. Not sure Kevin mixed that either, but as producer, I blame him

As far as the two Journey singles – City of Hope (cheesy as the lyrics are) seem to be another attempt to release the same damn song as the last bunch of lead singles. This one is the best, music wise in my opinion. But nothing new. Human Feel sounds like a step in some direction and I think I’d like it a lot more if the vocal and drum mix didn’t bug the hell out of me. Always good to hear Neal though.

While I don't fully agree, LOL don't think he blows, but I do agree on the mixing a little. After hearing Mr Big LIVE this weekend, it's hard to believe they (especially Eric's vocals) sound better LIVE than they do on record. I love the live feel of the album, but the vocal(s) were more resonant and full live than on the album, which is usually the other way around. While I love the album, I would be curious to hear what "What If...." would have sounded like if it was mixed differently?

All this music tech talk is over my head, but I do find it interesting that the COH single has that hard, thumping drumming (rather annoying and ruins the song for me)...sounds so much like the "drum-machine" beats that so many hardcores criticized ROR for. Anybody else think so? or am I off my rocker?