MR

Apparently there's going to be a vinyl edition of Eclipse, for those of you lucky enough to not live in Wal-Mart land.

Just listening to my Mr. Big What If... vinyl I picked up at Amoeba while I was out there last month, and it's quite impressive for a label that has little history with vinyl releases. Really quiet pressing with great sonics (for a modern rock recording). If the Eclipse vinyl release is this good, you Europeans will be in for a treat.

http://www.frontiers.it/album/4860/

Confirmed - it will be available on vinyl.

Also there will be a limited edition box set.

http://www.frontiers.it/album/4861/

Not trying to bring on the wrath of the retro collectors, but why would anyone buy a new album on vinyl? I'm actually being serious. What is the upside?

JRNYFan wrote:Not trying to bring on the wrath of the retro collectors, but why would anyone buy a new album on vinyl? I'm actually being serious. What is the upside?

Purists still swear that it sounds warmer and better. I haven't listened to much vinyl recently, but I don't think their claims are totally without merit.

Some of us don't let idealized, largely invented, remembrances of the past prevent our enjoyment of the present.

Digital Music Rocks.

JRNYFan wrote:Not trying to bring on the wrath of the retro collectors, but why would anyone buy a new album on vinyl? I'm actually being serious. What is the upside?

Much better quality on vinyl. Here are a few simple explanations:

-"Vinyl is analog it contains far more information in a massive amount of sound waves and these are normal to the ears. Cd's are huge piles of digital zeros and ones that are represented in blocks that are then translated back in to sound waves. The system of analogue has far more information and sounds much richer as a result. Cd's are simply smaller but quality wise not a touch on vinyl."


-"Vinyl sounds better because the subsonic part of the recording is not lost during the cutting of the master disc and during playback is still reproduced, although its beyond the range of human hearing, it adds a lot of warmth to the sound reproduction."


-"This means that, by definition, a digital recording is not capturing the complete sound wave. It is approximating it with a series of steps. Some sounds that have very quick transitions, such as a drum beat or a trumpet's tone, will be distorted because they change too quickly for the sample rate.

In your home stereo the CD or DVD player takes this digital recording and converts it to an analog signal, which is fed to your amplifier. The amplifier then raises the voltage of the signal to a level powerful enough to drive your speaker.

A vinyl record has a groove carved into it that mirrors the original sound's waveform. This means that no information is lost. The output of a record player is analog. It can be fed directly to your amplifier with no conversion.
This means that the waveforms from a vinyl recording can be much more accurate, and that can be heard in the richness of the sound. "

S2M wrote:Some of us don't let idealized, largely invented, remembrances of the past prevent our enjoyment of the present.

Digital Music Rocks.

I barely listen to CDs anymore, but when I do, it definitely just sounds a little better. And I rip all MP3s at 192. I dunno. You just can't beat the convenience factor. But I do feel a little sad every time I pop an actual CD in and I just notice a slightly better sound.

Ehwmatt wrote:

JRNYFan wrote:Not trying to bring on the wrath of the retro collectors, but why would anyone buy a new album on vinyl? I'm actually being serious. What is the upside?

Purists still swear that it sounds warmer and better. I haven't listened to much vinyl recently, but I don't think their claims are totally without merit.

Don't believe the hype. I couldn't wait to progress from my Denon turntable to a Pioneer CD sixpack.

Don wrote:

Ehwmatt wrote:

JRNYFan wrote:Not trying to bring on the wrath of the retro collectors, but why would anyone buy a new album on vinyl? I'm actually being serious. What is the upside?

Purists still swear that it sounds warmer and better. I haven't listened to much vinyl recently, but I don't think their claims are totally without merit.

Don't believe the hype. I couldn't wait to progress from my Denon turntable to a Pioneer CD sixpack.

Listen to them back to back, as I have, and there is no comparison. I vehemently argued that CDs were better, but couldn't argue the fact anymore after hearing songs in both formats. The difference is that HUGE sound. I guess the best way to describe it is that the vinyl album filled the entire room and the CD sounded very crisp, but hollow. I'm actually thinking about buying the limited edition Eclipse package that includes the vinyl lp (if I really like Eclipse on CD). How much is 72 Euros?

Saint John wrote:

Don wrote:

Ehwmatt wrote:

JRNYFan wrote:Not trying to bring on the wrath of the retro collectors, but why would anyone buy a new album on vinyl? I'm actually being serious. What is the upside?

Purists still swear that it sounds warmer and better. I haven't listened to much vinyl recently, but I don't think their claims are totally without merit.

Don't believe the hype. I couldn't wait to progress from my Denon turntable to a Pioneer CD sixpack.

Listen to them back to back, as I have, and there is no comparison. I vehemently argued that CDs were better, but couldn't argue the fact anymore after hearing songs in both formats. The difference is that HUGE sound. I guess the best way to describe it is that the vinyl album filled the entire room and the CD sounded very crisp, but hollow. I'm actually thinking about buying the limited edition Eclipse package that includes the vinyl lp (if I really like Eclipse on CD). How much is 72 Euros?

105 bucks

Don wrote:
105 bucks

Thanks, WikiDon. Considering I have only purchased about 15-20 CDs in my entire life, I might actually do this if I really like the album.

Can't wait to listen to it on my Technics turntable and Fisher 400c tube amp. My Boston LP just rocks on that combo and maybe it's just me, but LPs seem to have more distinct stereo separation.

Maybe on albums recorded back in the day, Vinyl brings something special to the table but for newer stuff that goes through the digital process from start to finish, I'm not buying that argument.

No way I'm paying for the silly box, I just want the LP's.


A lot of it is the massive amounts of compression done in mastering CD's over the last 10 years. Unfortunately vinyl doesn't completely eliminate this on newer recordings, but they have to be at least a bit more dynamic, otherwise the needle would jump out of the groove.

It really depends on the mastering and quality of the vinyl pressing, but when it's done right, it really does sound better, and warmer. Even if cut from digital files, if they use hi-resolution 96k/24-bit sources, you can still cut a great LP from it.

Unfortunately I think the bullshit Wal-Mart deal will keep this out of the US except as an overpriced import, which is sad. the Mr. Big LP I picked up at Amoeba for $17 sounds incredible.

Why doesn't Journey just sell it on their site for a reasonable amount?
I'm sure there are fans in the US that will want this, without paying ridiculous import prices.
I'm getting it, but not if I have to pay an arm and a leg.

Saint John wrote:

JRNYFan wrote:Not trying to bring on the wrath of the retro collectors, but why would anyone buy a new album on vinyl? I'm actually being serious. What is the upside?

Much better quality on vinyl. Here are a few simple explanations:

-"Vinyl is analog it contains far more information in a massive amount of sound waves and these are normal to the ears. Cd's are huge piles of digital zeros and ones that are represented in blocks that are then translated back in to sound waves. The system of analogue has far more information and sounds much richer as a result. Cd's are simply smaller but quality wise not a touch on vinyl."


-"Vinyl sounds better because the subsonic part of the recording is not lost during the cutting of the master disc and during playback is still reproduced, although its beyond the range of human hearing, it adds a lot of warmth to the sound reproduction."


-"This means that, by definition, a digital recording is not capturing the complete sound wave. It is approximating it with a series of steps. Some sounds that have very quick transitions, such as a drum beat or a trumpet's tone, will be distorted because they change too quickly for the sample rate.

In your home stereo the CD or DVD player takes this digital recording and converts it to an analog signal, which is fed to your amplifier. The amplifier then raises the voltage of the signal to a level powerful enough to drive your speaker.

A vinyl record has a groove carved into it that mirrors the original sound's waveform. This means that no information is lost. The output of a record player is analog. It can be fed directly to your amplifier with no conversion.
This means that the waveforms from a vinyl recording can be much more accurate, and that can be heard in the richness of the sound. "

Right on. Vinyl's execution and sound quality TRUMPS what CD's are all about. I can't remember the quality difference and resolution by the numbers but vinyl is amazing. I was listening to Billie Jean the other day on my bro's headphones, which cost a boatload of money, and you could actually hear MJ snappin' his fingers like he's standing in front of you.

I saw a Vinyl record-set at Wal-Mart this weekend. My bro's big into it so I'll probably purchase him one.

Saint John wrote:

Don wrote:
105 bucks

Thanks, WikiDon. Considering I have only purchased about 15-20 CDs in my entire life, I might actually do this if I really like the album.

You can get the LPs minus all the other crap for around $36 (includes shipping)


http://frontiers.it/album/4860/

Don wrote:

Saint John wrote:

Don wrote:
105 bucks

Thanks, WikiDon. Considering I have only purchased about 15-20 CDs in my entire life, I might actually do this if I really like the album.

You can get the LPs minus all the other crap for around $36 (includes shipping)


http://frontiers.it/album/4860/

Now I'll just need a record player.

Saint John wrote:

Don wrote:

Saint John wrote:

Don wrote:
105 bucks

Thanks, WikiDon. Considering I have only purchased about 15-20 CDs in my entire life, I might actually do this if I really like the album.

You can get the LPs minus all the other crap for around $36 (includes shipping)


http://frontiers.it/album/4860/

Now I'll just need a record player.

Just get a USB turntable, then you can burn it to cd. Uhhhhhhhh......

Sorry for the lack of posting, but this thread intrigued me.

I am HUGE into the vinyl reassurance. I am completely convinced that we have been "who-doo'd" this whole time into thinking that digital is better than analog. Actually, this is completely untrue. From the techno standpoint, analog signals have the ability to hold far more info than digital signals. The grooves in a vinyl record can hold the exact information of a music wave file, where as a digital version of it can only hold a close approximation of what the wave file represents (in zeros and ones.) While the difference itself might not be enough to bring CD lovers back to vinyl, technically, vinyl IS far superior to compact disc. Certainly CDs have an advantage in that they are portable (and of course mp3s and iTunes files,) but if you're truly into the pure quality of music, vinyl has always been the way to go. Nowaday you have different weights of vinyl (180 gram records) which means possibly better quality. Like what some others have said here, a lot of music came from an original digital source....but if that source is a high enough quality, then the vinyl is going to represent 100% of that quality.

Of course, to get the full benefit out of vinyls, you'll want to purchase a high quality turntable which could cost in the $400's, but if you consider yourself a music purist, the cost justifies the means. Be prepared to pay more for vinyl releases. Also remember that some artists will provide the digital download of their albums free with the purchase of vinyl. Have no idea if Journey will do this or not, but I do know several artists are going this route.

I honestly believe vinyl is one of those "vintage" audio things that should have never went out of style. I applaud those who have stuck with vinyl. I am one of those who likes to throw on an album, sit back with favorite drink in hand, and lose myself in the music. Seems much more rewarding when the music comes from vinyl.

Greg wrote:Sorry for the lack of posting, but this thread intrigued me.

I am HUGE into the vinyl reassurance. I am completely convinced that we have been "who-doo'd" this whole time into thinking that digital is better than analog. Actually, this is completely untrue. From the techno standpoint, analog signals have the ability to hold far more info than digital signals. The grooves in a vinyl record can hold the exact information of a music wave file, where as a digital version of it can only hold a close approximation of what the wave file represents (in zeros and ones.) While the difference itself might not be enough to bring CD lovers back to vinyl, technically, vinyl IS far superior to compact disc. Certainly CDs have an advantage in that they are portable (and of course mp3s and iTunes files,) but if you're truly into the pure quality of music, vinyl has always been the way to go. Nowaday you have different weights of vinyl (180 gram records) which means possibly better quality. Like what some others have said here, a lot of music came from an original digital source....but if that source is a high enough quality, then the vinyl is going to represent 100% of that quality.

Of course, to get the full benefit out of vinyls, you'll want to purchase a high quality turntable which could cost in the $400's, but if you consider yourself a music purist, the cost justifies the means. Be prepared to pay more for vinyl releases. Also remember that some artists will provide the digital download of their albums free with the purchase of vinyl. Have no idea if Journey will do this or not, but I do know several artists are going this route.

I honestly believe vinyl is one of those "vintage" audio things that should have never went out of style. I applaud those who have stuck with vinyl. I am one of those who likes to throw on an album, sit back with favorite drink in hand, and lose myself in the music. Seems much more rewarding when the music comes from vinyl.

I'm glad you said that. If you want to go that route, then your sytem should be state of the art also. A nice heavy based table like the old Denons, with a good quality pre/power amp combo like Onkyo or even Carver. Some nice Coral Speakers and you will be sitting pretty.

So....what songs are included on the second LP in that box set? Anyone know? Bonus tracks?

Greg wrote:Sorry for the lack of posting, but this thread intrigued me.

I am HUGE into the vinyl reassurance. I am completely convinced that we have been "who-doo'd" this whole time into thinking that digital is better than analog. Actually, this is completely untrue. From the techno standpoint, analog signals have the ability to hold far more info than digital signals. The grooves in a vinyl record can hold the exact information of a music wave file, where as a digital version of it can only hold a close approximation of what the wave file represents (in zeros and ones.) While the difference itself might not be enough to bring CD lovers back to vinyl, technically, vinyl IS far superior to compact disc. Certainly CDs have an advantage in that they are portable (and of course mp3s and iTunes files,) but if you're truly into the pure quality of music, vinyl has always been the way to go. Nowaday you have different weights of vinyl (180 gram records) which means possibly better quality. Like what some others have said here, a lot of music came from an original digital source....but if that source is a high enough quality, then the vinyl is going to represent 100% of that quality.

Of course, to get the full benefit out of vinyls, you'll want to purchase a high quality turntable which could cost in the $400's, but if you consider yourself a music purist, the cost justifies the means. Be prepared to pay more for vinyl releases. Also remember that some artists will provide the digital download of their albums free with the purchase of vinyl. Have no idea if Journey will do this or not, but I do know several artists are going this route.

I honestly believe vinyl is one of those "vintage" audio things that should have never went out of style. I applaud those who have stuck with vinyl. I am one of those who likes to throw on an album, sit back with favorite drink in hand, and lose myself in the music. Seems much more rewarding when the music comes from vinyl.

Great post, Greg. I agree 100%. I gave an autographed Escape LP (that I won in an auction at the annual Journey To The Cure benefit) to my girlfriend as a present and I could see me getting buzzed up and playing that fucker, should I decide to buy a record player. And I'm thinking about doing just that. I hope she understands.

I would love to have the LP also, but this is a bunch of bull hooey. A vinyl record cannot hold the exact information of a music wave file. It is limited by the size of the needle, by gravity, by a whole bunch of things. Hey, I have an sentimental attachment to the clicks and pops on a record, but LPs are noisier. I have nothing against people feeling the sound is "warmer", etc., that's fine. But the reproduction of the sound is not better "because it is analog". If that were the case, can you imagine the wonderfully high definition picture you could get on a television if it were recorded on vinyl instead of DVD? A vinyl record's groove would mirror the original lightwave's waveform. Throw out those Blu-Ray discs!

jrnyjetster wrote:So....what songs are included on the second LP in that box set? Anyone know? Bonus tracks?

Bonus tracks?

LP1:
Side A:
1. City Of Hope
2. Edge Of The Moment
3. Chain Of Love

Side B:
4. Tantra
5. Anything Is Possible
6. Resonate

LP2:
Side C:
7. She's A Mystery
8. Human Feel
9. Ritual

Side D:
10. To Whom It May Concern
11. Someone
12. Venus

A lot of people don't remember that most LPs back in the day had 5 or 6 songs on one side, then you had to flip it over. Most of those back then
were 3 minutes or less. Journey has some 6 minute songs on this album, so it makes sense that you have 2 LPs. I said "flip".

kmjrr wrote:I would love to have the LP also, but this is a bunch of bull hooey. A vinyl record cannot hold the exact information of a music wave file. It is limited by the size of the needle, by gravity, by a whole bunch of things. Hey, I have an sentimental attachment to the clicks and pops on a record, but LPs are noisier. I have nothing against people feeling the sound is "warmer", etc., that's fine. But the reproduction of the sound is not better "because it is analog". If that were the case, can you imagine the wonderfully high definition picture you could get on a television if it were recorded on vinyl instead of DVD? A vinyl record's groove would mirror the original lightwave's waveform. Throw out those Blu-Ray discs!

But you're not referring to the vinyl record itself. You're referring to outside sources that make or break the sound coming from the vinyl. And like I said before, (I'm assuming you did read the whole post) it also depends upon the quality of your turntable/sound system. If you're referring to a cheap turntable that has all the factory crap on it, then no, it's not going to sound better. And also remember, that digital recording you are hearing on the CD has to be reconverted into analog for you to listen to it on your stereo anyway. You can't tell me that all of that converting and re-converting does not affect the quality of sound at least to some degree.

When you start throwing out video into the mix, that is a whole different animal. All I will say on that is if you're watching your HD content on cable or satellite, then you're not getting the true benefit out of HD (because those signals are compressed.)

Remember though, it probably isn't going to make a HUGE amount of difference on new recordings that were digital to begin with. You CAN tell a difference with recordings that were originally recorded in analog.

Take, for instance, Metallica's Death Magnetic. The recordings on the disc sound like CRAP. Metallica wanted to re-create the sound from the "Justice" album. I don't remember all of the details, but I do remember it being said that because the recordings were done digitally, the end result is what you got on this album. If they had recorded the album in analog, the end result would have been a lot better. Again, I don't remember exactly who was interviewed, but I DO remember reading this.

One other thing. My first CD I had ever purchased was Heart's self titled album. When I listened to it, yeah it was great that everything was crystal clear....no pops and background noise. BUT, the sound seemed kind of hollow to me. If Looks Could Kill didn't sound like it had any muscle to it at all. However, I remembered listening to one of my brother's cassette recording of the same song that was recorded off of vinyl. That cassette recording sounded more full to me. The guitars sounded stronger....would have loved to have heard it on the record player.

steveo777 wrote:Why doesn't Journey just sell it on their site for a reasonable amount?
I'm sure there are fans in the US that will want this, without paying ridiculous import prices.

Because that would go against the terms of (another) stupid fucking deal with Wal-Mart.

Greg wrote:

kmjrr wrote:I would love to have the LP also, but this is a bunch of bull hooey. A vinyl record cannot hold the exact information of a music wave file. It is limited by the size of the needle, by gravity, by a whole bunch of things. Hey, I have an sentimental attachment to the clicks and pops on a record, but LPs are noisier. I have nothing against people feeling the sound is "warmer", etc., that's fine. But the reproduction of the sound is not better "because it is analog". If that were the case, can you imagine the wonderfully high definition picture you could get on a television if it were recorded on vinyl instead of DVD? A vinyl record's groove would mirror the original lightwave's waveform. Throw out those Blu-Ray discs!

But you're not referring to the vinyl record itself. You're referring to outside sources that make or break the sound coming from the vinyl. And like I said before, (I'm assuming you did read the whole post) it also depends upon the quality of your turntable/sound system. If you're referring to a cheap turntable that has all the factory crap on it, then no, it's not going to sound better. And also remember, that digital recording you are hearing on the CD has to be reconverted into analog for you to listen to it on your stereo anyway. You can't tell me that all of that converting and re-converting does not affect the quality of sound at least to some degree.

When you start throwing out video into the mix, that is a whole different animal. All I will say on that is if you're watching your HD content on cable or satellite, then you're not getting the true benefit out of HD (because those signals are compressed.)

Again, I have no qualms with people preferring the sound quality of an LP. But the technical explanations given that a vinyl record, being an analog recording, is a more accurate reproduction of the sound waves is incorrect. For example, "A vinyl record has a groove carved into it that mirrors the original sound's waveform. This means that no information is lost." That's ridiculous. The audio does not get converted directly from the master recording to the vinyl record. There are many "analog" steps involved in creating a vinyl record, and each step inevitably causes a loss or modification of the information.

"Some sounds that have very quick transitions, such as a drum beat or a trumpet's tone, will be distorted because they change too quickly for the sample rate." If you can hear a transition that's faster than 22 microseconds (or 44,100 Hz), then you have the hearing of a bat.

I am an electronics engineer and have built both DACs and ADCs, and those zeros and ones convert beautifully back to analog waveforms. And the laser beams don't touch the grooves on the CD, while diamond needles do take their toll on soft vinyl records.

It's all good. People are really attached to LPs, and I like them too. Isn't it fun showing them to your kids? Having to flip to the back side really seems stupid to them. It's just that those technical explanations, while sounding reasonable, are flawed.