Why Did Smitty Replace Aynsley Dunbar?

[JRNYMAN]

I have a couple of questions regarding Steve Smith's replacing Dunbar.
Did Aynsley Dunbar quit the band to pursue other interests or was he fired and if so why? And...
Given Smitty's style and background, why/how was he even considered for the job.

Steve is one of the best drummers alive today - no doubt about it. The BIG, BIG sound he used to produce out of his Sonors was simply amazing!

Thanks in advance for the replies to my questions.

Steve

[Don]

Aynsley (allegedly) had a big mouth and would go around spouting off in public about how Journey was his band (or something along those lines). His supposed appetite for underage girls (again, allegedly) probably didn't help matters. Going off on his owning drumming tangent in the middle of numbers because he didn't care for the material being played might have been yet another reason why the dude had to go.

It always cracks me up when people talk about Journey as a family band. Wipe away the mascara and you'll see that these guys had/have gone through more dirty linen than a Vietnamese Laundromat during Monsoon season.

[JRNYMAN]

Aynsley (allegedly) had a big mouth and would go around spouting off in public about how Journey was his band (or something along those lines). His supposed appetite for underage girls (again, allegedly) probably didn't help matters. Going off on his owning drumming tangent in the middle of numbers because he didn't care for the material being played might have been yet another reason why the dude had to go.

It always cracks me up when people talk about Journey as a family band. Wipe away the mascara and you'll see that these guys had/have gone through more dirty linen than a Vietnamese Laundromat during Monsoon season.

Hey Don,
Thanks for the reply. So was he fired between the release of Infinity and the beginning of that tour or was he replaced after that tour had started?


Regards

[Don]

Aynsley (allegedly) had a big mouth and would go around spouting off in public about how Journey was his band (or something along those lines). His supposed appetite for underage girls (again, allegedly) probably didn't help matters. Going off on his owning drumming tangent in the middle of numbers because he didn't care for the material being played might have been yet another reason why the dude had to go.

It always cracks me up when people talk about Journey as a family band. Wipe away the mascara and you'll see that these guys had/have gone through more dirty linen than a Vietnamese Laundromat during Monsoon season.

Hey Don,
Thanks for the reply. So was he fired between the release of Infinity and the beginning of that tour or was he replaced after that tour had started?


Regards

From Steve Smith's recent interview. Doesn't really answer the question but when does anything about Journey's ex-members ever get answered adequately?

As it turned out, Ronnie was a support act for Journey on a 3-month tour. The tour featured three bands: Van Halen opened the show – it was their first tour – then I played with Ronnie Montrose and the headliner was Journey, it was Journey’s first headline tour. They had been a support band for about 5 years and in 1977 they added Steve Perry as their lead-singer. They made an album called “Infinity” and the tour was organized to promote that album, which went on be Journey’s first platinum album, selling over 1 million copies in the USA.

On that tour we were playing an average of 2,500 seat theatres, which were the same theatres I was playing with Jean-Luc Ponty. In those years fusion was so popular we were playing 2,500 seat theaters with Ponty! Journey was just starting out and they were playing the exact same venues. It’s interesting to see the change now, how it’s very difficult for a fusion band to play a 2,500 seat theatre and fill it up. During those 3 months in early 1978, the three bands: Ronnie Montrose, Van Halen and Journey, really hung together a lot, I got to know all of them, they got to know me and we had a lot of fun hanging together. I used to warm up with Aynsley Dunbar before the shows, we would get our pads out, hang out backstage and I would watch him play every night. I really liked what Journey was doing, the music sounded interesting and I thought the guys in the band were very good at what they did. Again, I hadn’t played much rock before that but I started to get some rock experience playing with Ronnie Montrose. Actually with Ronnie Montrose I was still playing fusion style drumming, because even though he’s a rock guitar player he wanted me to stretch out because it was instrumental music. I was actually learning how to play with musicians who were “rockers,” which is a different mindset than “jazzers.” I got my first inside look into how rock musicians thought and where they were coming from.

Journey was going through a transition because they had made three albums as a quartet with Gregg Rolie on keyboards, who was the lead singer and organist from Santana, and Neal Schon who was a guitarist from Santana. Neal was a child protégée, he joined Santana when he was 16 years old. Gregg Rolie and Neal Schon quit Santana and started Journey in 1973. They got Ross Valory, who was a San Francisco bass player that played with Steve Miller, and they got Aynsley Dunbar on drums. Aynsley had played with Frank Zappa, Jeff Beck, David Bowie and John Mayall. Together they were an all-star group. Journey made three records for Columbia with that line up. The music was a mix of instrumental orientated rock-fusion and progressive tunes with vocals. Those records didn’t sell very well so in ‘77 they made a change and added Steve Perry as the lead singer.

Later I found out that they were also thinking of changing drummers and wanted someone that could play the fusion style but also could play pop/rock with an R&B groove. They saw that potential in me though I wasn’t doing much of that on the tour with Ronnie Montrose, but they thought I would be a good drummer for their new direction. A couple of months after we finished the tour with Van Halen, Ronnie Montrose and Journey, they called and asked me to be a band member; that was in September of 1978. I wasn’t looking to be in a rock band but since the opportunity came my way I thought, “okay let’s check it out, this should be interesting.” I agreed to join the band and I was excited to play with some very good rock players. Also I hadn’t done much work with singers, so working with a great singer sounded interesting too. I moved from Los Angeles to San Francisco and we got right to work.

[SF-Dano]

From Herbie Herbert's infamous "Castle's Burning" Interview

Dicussion of Aynsley's termination starts at top of page.

http://members.cox.net/mrcarty/page6.html

[JRNYMAN]

From Herbie Herbert's infamous "Castle's Burning" Interview

Dicussion of Aynsley's termination starts at top of page.

http://members.cox.net/mrcarty/page6.html

Thanks Dano! Ya know, I've read that interview a couple of times and even have it formatted and PDF'd on my hard drive but for some reason I didn't remember that part of the interview.

I see you're near Sacramento. My folks retired in Paradise and I lived there for several years before flying the coop. Where abouts are you if I may ask?

Thanks again!

[JRNYMAN]

Aynsley (allegedly) had a big mouth and would go around spouting off in public about how Journey was his band (or something along those lines). His supposed appetite for underage girls (again, allegedly) probably didn't help matters. Going off on his owning drumming tangent in the middle of numbers because he didn't care for the material being played might have been yet another reason why the dude had to go.

It always cracks me up when people talk about Journey as a family band. Wipe away the mascara and you'll see that these guys had/have gone through more dirty linen than a Vietnamese Laundromat during Monsoon season.

Hey Don,
Thanks for the reply. So was he fired between the release of Infinity and the beginning of that tour or was he replaced after that tour had started?


Regards

From Steve Smith's recent interview. Doesn't really answer the question but when does anything about Journey's ex-members ever get answered adequately?

As it turned out, Ronnie was a support act for Journey on a 3-month tour. The tour featured three bands: Van Halen opened the show – it was their first tour – then I played with Ronnie Montrose and the headliner was Journey, it was Journey’s first headline tour. They had been a support band for about 5 years and in 1977 they added Steve Perry as their lead-singer. They made an album called “Infinity” and the tour was organized to promote that album, which went on be Journey’s first platinum album, selling over 1 million copies in the USA.

On that tour we were playing an average of 2,500 seat theatres, which were the same theatres I was playing with Jean-Luc Ponty. In those years fusion was so popular we were playing 2,500 seat theaters with Ponty! Journey was just starting out and they were playing the exact same venues. It’s interesting to see the change now, how it’s very difficult for a fusion band to play a 2,500 seat theatre and fill it up. During those 3 months in early 1978, the three bands: Ronnie Montrose, Van Halen and Journey, really hung together a lot, I got to know all of them, they got to know me and we had a lot of fun hanging together. I used to warm up with Aynsley Dunbar before the shows, we would get our pads out, hang out backstage and I would watch him play every night. I really liked what Journey was doing, the music sounded interesting and I thought the guys in the band were very good at what they did. Again, I hadn’t played much rock before that but I started to get some rock experience playing with Ronnie Montrose. Actually with Ronnie Montrose I was still playing fusion style drumming, because even though he’s a rock guitar player he wanted me to stretch out because it was instrumental music. I was actually learning how to play with musicians who were “rockers,” which is a different mindset than “jazzers.” I got my first inside look into how rock musicians thought and where they were coming from.

Journey was going through a transition because they had made three albums as a quartet with Gregg Rolie on keyboards, who was the lead singer and organist from Santana, and Neal Schon who was a guitarist from Santana. Neal was a child protégée, he joined Santana when he was 16 years old. Gregg Rolie and Neal Schon quit Santana and started Journey in 1973. They got Ross Valory, who was a San Francisco bass player that played with Steve Miller, and they got Aynsley Dunbar on drums. Aynsley had played with Frank Zappa, Jeff Beck, David Bowie and John Mayall. Together they were an all-star group. Journey made three records for Columbia with that line up. The music was a mix of instrumental orientated rock-fusion and progressive tunes with vocals. Those records didn’t sell very well so in ‘77 they made a change and added Steve Perry as the lead singer.

Later I found out that they were also thinking of changing drummers and wanted someone that could play the fusion style but also could play pop/rock with an R&B groove. They saw that potential in me though I wasn’t doing much of that on the tour with Ronnie Montrose, but they thought I would be a good drummer for their new direction. A couple of months after we finished the tour with Van Halen, Ronnie Montrose and Journey, they called and asked me to be a band member; that was in September of 1978. I wasn’t looking to be in a rock band but since the opportunity came my way I thought, “okay let’s check it out, this should be interesting.” I agreed to join the band and I was excited to play with some very good rock players. Also I hadn’t done much work with singers, so working with a great singer sounded interesting too. I moved from Los Angeles to San Francisco and we got right to work.

Thanks Don! Much appreciated.

[Art Vandelay]

I remember reading years ago from Aynsley's perspective that he was bored with the new structure of the band. With vocals becoming a big focus of the live show, jams and solos were less and less, and learning how to play a structured set list was not fun for him. He also said that with the increased tour schedule, he was losing money because it took away from time for private clinics and other opportunities (that part never really made sense to me). Whatever the problem was, neither side was happy with each other by the end of Infinity. When Smith joined, his jazz background made him a top-heavy player (not so hard on the kick/bass drum). He would notice the engineers boosting up the levels on his kick drum, so he then taught himself to play harder on the bottom part of the drum set and think like a rock drummer.

[SF-Dano]

From Herbie Herbert's infamous "Castle's Burning" Interview

Dicussion of Aynsley's termination starts at top of page.

http://members.cox.net/mrcarty/page6.html

Thanks Dano! Ya know, I've read that interview a couple of times and even have it formatted and PDF'd on my hard drive but for some reason I didn't remember that part of the interview.

I see you're near Sacramento. My folks retired in Paradise and I lived there for several years before flying the coop. Where abouts are you if I may ask?

Thanks again!

Paradise is beautiful. I had an ex-girlfriend that lived there years ago and few buddies that went to college at Chico, so I am familiar with Paradise. I live in Citrus Heights, a suburb of Sacramento. It is about 15mi ENE of downtown Sac. There are things I like about living here and things I hate. I guess that is the same anywhere though.

[brandonx76]

From Herbie Herbert's infamous "Castle's Burning" Interview

Dicussion of Aynsley's termination starts at top of page.

http://members.cox.net/mrcarty/page6.html

Thanks Dano! Ya know, I've read that interview a couple of times and even have it formatted and PDF'd on my hard drive but for some reason I didn't remember that part of the interview.

I see you're near Sacramento. My folks retired in Paradise and I lived there for several years before flying the coop. Where abouts are you if I may ask?

Thanks again!

Paradise is beautiful. I had an ex-girlfriend that lived there years ago and few buddies that went to college at Chico, so I am familiar with Paradise. I live in Citrus Heights, a suburb of Sacramento. It is about 15mi ENE of downtown Sac. There are things I like about living here and things I hate. I guess that is the same anywhere though.

Dano - you play music? I'm in downtown Sac and my g/f lives in Fair Oaks. Been here for about a year, not bad, but just found out Sacramento's a potential major flood zone - not good...oh well

[Saint John]

Why did Smitty replace Dunbar??? Because he's fucking better, man.

[Glenn]

Why did Smitty replace Dunbar??? Because he's fucking better, man.

Here's the real question...Why the hell was Smitty replaced? What the hell was P thinking?

[Don]

Why did Smitty replace Dunbar??? Because he's fucking better, man.

Here's the real question...Why the hell was Smitty replaced? What the hell was P thinking?

This is where I get confused. Was Smitty fired or did he quit? I thought he said he didn't want to use the click track and walked. What's the real deal here?

[Glenn]

Why did Smitty replace Dunbar??? Because he's fucking better, man.

Here's the real question...Why the hell was Smitty replaced? What the hell was P thinking?

This is where I get confused. Was Smitty fired or did he quit? I thought he said he didn't want to use the click track and walked. What's the real deal here?

Hard to say where the truth lays with this one...I was to the understanding that Perry ordered this along with Valory.

[brandonx76]

Why did Smitty replace Dunbar??? Because he's fucking better, man.

Here's the real question...Why the hell was Smitty replaced? What the hell was P thinking?

This is where I get confused. Was Smitty fired or did he quit? I thought he said he didn't want to use the click track and walked. What's the real deal here?

I highly doubt Smith had a problem with the click track - From what one can infer, Perry was on a power trip and thought a different 'drummer' was the right thing to do. (Perry admitted as much during the VH1 show, that if he felt the 'music' called for it, then he would fight for it. He admitted it was probably a 'mistake' in hind sight) But at the time, critics, fans, and fellow band mates be damned...Classic LSD (Lead Singer's Disease)

[Don]

Why did Smitty replace Dunbar??? Because he's fucking better, man.

Here's the real question...Why the hell was Smitty replaced? What the hell was P thinking?

This is where I get confused. Was Smitty fired or did he quit? I thought he said he didn't want to use the click track and walked. What's the real deal here?

I highly doubt Smith had a problem with the click track - From what one can infer, Perry was on a power trip and thought a different 'drummer' was the right thing to do. (Perry admitted as much during the VH1 show, that if he felt the 'music' called for it, then he would fight for it. He admitted it was probably a 'mistake' in hind sight) But at the time, critics, fans, and fellow band mates be damned...Classic LSD (Lead Singer's Disease)

Oh, I do think there was an issue with the click track. Smith had never used one and wasn't the kind of drummer who want to be inhibited like that, especially with his jazz/ open style backround.

[brandonx76]

Why did Smitty replace Dunbar??? Because he's fucking better, man.

Here's the real question...Why the hell was Smitty replaced? What the hell was P thinking?

This is where I get confused. Was Smitty fired or did he quit? I thought he said he didn't want to use the click track and walked. What's the real deal here?

I highly doubt Smith had a problem with the click track - From what one can infer, Perry was on a power trip and thought a different 'drummer' was the right thing to do. (Perry admitted as much during the VH1 show, that if he felt the 'music' called for it, then he would fight for it. He admitted it was probably a 'mistake' in hind sight) But at the time, critics, fans, and fellow band mates be damned...Classic LSD (Lead Singer's Disease)

Oh, I do think there was an issue with the click track. Smith had never used one and wasn't the kind of drummer who want to be inhibited like that, especially with his jazz/ open style backround.

I just think it's suspect - 'trouble with a click track' translates to me as 'not playing drums like a black guy' (i.e. something I'd imagine Steve P saying). Again going back to wanting a more R&B sound (ala Street Talk II)

[Rick]

Why did Smitty replace Dunbar??? Because he's fucking better, man.

Here's the real question...Why the hell was Smitty replaced? What the hell was P thinking?

This is where I get confused. Was Smitty fired or did he quit? I thought he said he didn't want to use the click track and walked. What's the real deal here?

I highly doubt Smith had a problem with the click track - From what one can infer, Perry was on a power trip and thought a different 'drummer' was the right thing to do. (Perry admitted as much during the VH1 show, that if he felt the 'music' called for it, then he would fight for it. He admitted it was probably a 'mistake' in hind sight) But at the time, critics, fans, and fellow band mates be damned...Classic LSD (Lead Singer's Disease)

Oh, I do think there was an issue with the click track. Smith had never used one and wasn't the kind of drummer who want to be inhibited like that, especially with his jazz/ open style backround.

I may be late to the party on this, but was Perry insisting on a click track so he could set the tempo to whatever he wanted? A lot of those songs were played much faster.

[Art Vandelay]

Perry wanted a formulated sound for ROR and wanted to use a click track to help structure that sound. Although it may not have been a good idea at the time, there is nothing wrong or demeaning with using a click track. Many great drummers use them, both in studio and live. If you see a video of a drummer wearing headphones while playing, it's because he's using a click track to help keep time. Smith tried the click track method for ROR and it didn't work out (he does appear on 2-3 songs on that album). He's said in an interview a few years back that he has since come around to click track playing and does it often.

[Art Vandelay]

Why did Smitty replace Dunbar??? Because he's fucking better, man.

All around, yes. But Aynsley was no slouch. He was a monster English jazz and blues player and had some of the quickest footwork in the business. Some of the real intricate bass drum playing on the early albums was done with a single bass, not double.

[Glenn]

Why did Smitty replace Dunbar??? Because he's fucking better, man.

All around, yes. But Aynsley was no slouch. He was a monster English jazz and blues player and had some of the quickest footwork in the business. Some of the real intricate bass drum playing on the early albums was done with a single bass, not double.

He also was great on the Whitesnake album

[artist4perry]

Dunbar was a fusion player. Most of Journey was at the beginning. There are several reasons given. It was also once said that Dunbar wanted to jam and Perry's style ham strung his impromptu solo sessions. Dunbar wanted to play and play and had no desire for pop rock.

I guess only the ones involved know the true story. I know what I learned from being in Journey Force for years and reading interviews.....etc.

Smitty was a great fit for Journey. He was awesome and I had the privileged to hear him play during the Frontiers tour. Seriously this band has had its mood swings, personnel changes, and ups and downs.

I still think it is an awesome band. And every musician in the band was a top notch musician in their own right. This band has its dark side but has also had great history.

Your dealing with humans folks... not saints. The music has always kept me a fan.

I still love Perry, but I also like Journey the way they are now. If Hell froze over I would love it if Perry sang with them again, but I am realistic. Sometimes musicians who make such magic together...sadly don't always get along.

[Rockindeano]

Dunbar was a fusion player. Most of Journey was at the beginning. There are several reasons given. It was also once said that Dunbar wanted to jam and Perry's style ham strung his impromptu solo sessions. Dunbar wanted to play and play and had no desire for pop rock.

I guess only the ones involved know the true story. I know what I learned from being in Journey Force for years and reading interviews.....etc.

Smitty was a great fit for Journey. He was awesome and I had the privileged to hear him play during the Frontiers tour. Seriously this band has had its mood swings, personnel changes, and ups and downs.

I still think it is an awesome band. And every musician in the band was a top notch musician in their own right. This band has its dark side but has also had great history.

Your dealing with humans folks... not saints. The music has always kept me a fan.

I still love Perry, but I also like Journey the way they are now. If Hell froze over I would love it if Perry sang with them again, but I am realistic. Sometimes musicians who make such magic together...sadly don't always get along.

Um, no, Aynsley was not a fusion player. Smitty was.

[artist4perry]

Dunbar was a fusion player. Most of Journey was at the beginning. There are several reasons given. It was also once said that Dunbar wanted to jam and Perry's style ham strung his impromptu solo sessions. Dunbar wanted to play and play and had no desire for pop rock.

I guess only the ones involved know the true story. I know what I learned from being in Journey Force for years and reading interviews.....etc.

Smitty was a great fit for Journey. He was awesome and I had the privileged to hear him play during the Frontiers tour. Seriously this band has had its mood swings, personnel changes, and ups and downs.

I still think it is an awesome band. And every musician in the band was a top notch musician in their own right. This band has its dark side but has also had great history.

Your dealing with humans folks... not saints. The music has always kept me a fan.

I still love Perry, but I also like Journey the way they are now. If Hell froze over I would love it if Perry sang with them again, but I am realistic. Sometimes musicians who make such magic together...sadly don't always get along.

Um, no, Aynsley was not a fusion player. Smitty was.

O.K. So what do you call the music Journey did before Perry? Your probably right about Smitty. It has been a long time since I read all that crap so I could be very wrong on that. I still remember he did not like giving up his solos.

[artist4perry]

Quoting from Time3: "Fusion music was very popular at the time." said Rolie. "We figured we're players-let's do it." Refering to the first album.

I know Dunbar started out with other rock musicians like Bowie.

But I though Journey's first albums were rock/fusion style? Maybe I am wrong.

[artist4perry]

Journey made three records for Columbia with that line up. The music was a mix of instrumental orientated rock-fusion and progressive tunes with vocals. Those records didn’t sell very well so in ‘77 they made a change and added Steve Perry as the lead singer.


From the interview above..............Rock fusion......right?

[Art Vandelay]

How about Aynsley was rock fusion and Smith was jazz fusion

[Saint John]

Perry wanted a formulated sound for ROR and wanted to use a click track to help structure that sound. Although it may not have been a good idea at the time, there is nothing wrong or demeaning with using a click track. Many great drummers use them, both in studio and live. If you see a video of a drummer wearing headphones while playing, it's because he's using a click track to help keep time. Smith tried the click track method for ROR and it didn't work out (he does appear on 2-3 songs on that album). He's said in an interview a few years back that he has since come around to click track playing and does it often.

While this is all true, Perry's voice was running on fumes leading up to, and especially during, this tour. He needed help and triggered backing vocals were a necessity. Add to that the fact that the studio version of ROR had huge layers of Perry singing backing vox, and you really have no way around click track triggered backing vocals. As it turns out, the tour was shortened because his voice gave out. They must've run out of Vitamin B shots.

[Art Vandelay]

Perry wanted a formulated sound for ROR and wanted to use a click track to help structure that sound. Although it may not have been a good idea at the time, there is nothing wrong or demeaning with using a click track. Many great drummers use them, both in studio and live. If you see a video of a drummer wearing headphones while playing, it's because he's using a click track to help keep time. Smith tried the click track method for ROR and it didn't work out (he does appear on 2-3 songs on that album). He's said in an interview a few years back that he has since come around to click track playing and does it often.

While this is all true, Perry's voice was running on fumes leading up to, and especially during, this tour. He needed help and triggered backing vocals were a necessity. Add to that the fact that the studio version of ROR had huge layers of Perry singing backing vox, and you really have no way around click track triggered backing vocals. As it turns out, the tour was shortened because his voice gave out. They must've run out of Vitamin B shots.

Ok Captain Obvious, since you have no idea what a click track really is (it has nothing to do with triggering backing vocals), lemme explain. A click track is used to set up a beat or rhythm. Musicians use a metronome that plays the clicks to help keep time. What Perry wanted to do for ROR was sketch out the songs by using a click track to write the drum parts and have Smith follow the cues and play the pre-determined beats. Perry had a specific sound in mind and wanted to see it through. This is actually a lot harder for drummers to do than it sounds. You need to have a certain focus to do so. Smith was more of a free-form player at the time, which wouldn't mesh with the click track method. Larrie Londin was a great sessions drummer and worked well with the click track. I'm a HUGE Smith fan, but I also like Larrie's work on ROR.

Here's some more detailed info. Sadly, no mention of any Nostrildamus conspiracies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Click_track

[Art Vandelay]

You can see Aynsley wearing headphones in this Patiently video. He's most likely listening to a click track. The plexi-glass in front of the drum kit is also used to muffle the sound of his kit from the other instruments (Aynsley was a much harder hitter than Smith).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NA0exiQOnk