MR

Reading reviews on amazon about the sound...Most are saying it's a step up...

Does anyone here have the Blu Ray?


http://www.amazon.com/Journey-Live-Mani ... 047&sr=8-3



Sorry if this an old topic that may have been covered already.

Somebody rip it for me. My system is good to go for playing it.

JSS Rocks! wrote:Reading reviews on amazon about the sound...Most are saying it's a step up...

Does anyone here have the Blu Ray?

They're gonna have to build a fucking staircase before I buy it again.

Does anyone know if the Manila Blu-Ray will be released in the USA?
Spending over $30 for an import isn't too appealing.

Milan

Didn't we determine that this isn't truly a Blu-Ray, but an upconvert of the base Manila DVD? Just a warning to those considering forking $30 over.

Ehwmatt wrote:Didn't we determine that this isn't truly a Blu-Ray, but an upconvert of the base Manila DVD? Just a warning to those considering forking $30 over.

Yeah..and honestly Blu-ray players up-convert anyway.

Thanks for the heads up guys!!
You've just saved me $30.

I wish Eagle Rock Entertainment would secure the rights and issue a proper 1080p Blu-Ray disc of the Manila gig.
The Eagle Rock "Toto - Falling In Between Live" Paris 2007 Blu-Ray disc features breath taking HD visuals and rock solid PCM audio!
Huge improvement over the DVD.

Milan

Eric wrote:

Ehwmatt wrote:Didn't we determine that this isn't truly a Blu-Ray, but an upconvert of the base Manila DVD? Just a warning to those considering forking $30 over.

Yeah..and honestly Blu-ray players up-convert anyway.

***Caution. Technical discussion coming***

Let me clarify something slightly. A DVD player can upconvert to whatever your tv will handle. So can a BluRay player. It's MUCH more complicated than that, however. The clarity of video is simply dependent on two things. The first is how clear the camera is shooting (in laymans terms, an HD camera gives you more lines of resolution than a VHS camera). The Manilla show was shot with a RED camera, which will display a sharper image than ANY television set you can buy. Basic lesson: the camera was VERY sharp.

The second point is how much data you are writing onto the disc. This is simply a case of numbers. The more data you write per frame of video, the clearer the image is (up to the point of exceeding what the camera recorded to begin with). The higher the number, the more detail. Your video encoding is down to how many megabytes/second are being thrown at your television set. The only difference between a Blu-Ray player and a DVD player is that the Blu-Ray player can handle more data coming at it every second. Your dvd holds roughly 5gb of data. Your Blu-Ray holds 25+gb of data. Spread that out over the course of a two hour movie, and obviously, the Blu-Ray has more data per frame of video --> clearer image. If you are putting out images at 8Mbps/sec (DVD) vs. 25Mbps/sec (Blu-Ray), you are going to see a LOT of detail in the Blu-Ray that the dvd simply doesn't have the bitrate to handle. It's that simple.

On the subject of upconverting...your dvd (if short enough for optimal quality without compression to fit on a disc) is encoded at whatever number of lines of resolution that the camera recorded. If it was recorded on an older format, you don't have nearly the number of lines of resolution that a current television set will handle to work with. The dvd (and Blu-Ray player) can attempt to fill in the missing gaps, aka upconvert , if you want it to do so. With movies, there is no need to do such IF the film was encoded to a high enough level (aka enough data/frame on the disc). At the moment, that means Blu-Ray. You can encode a Blu-Ray to play at full 1080p. You can't upconvert beyond what your tv set will allow, so if the movie is encoded at 1080p, there is no upconverting going on when you are playing a movie. Remember, Hollywood films were shot to be played on a 70-foot wide movie screen. Your tv is nowhere near that big. That means the movies have been DOWNCONVERTED so you can play them. That means there is detail on the image that you'll never see because the technology won't support that much data/frame to show it. The Manilla show is the same way. It was recorded at a higher level than current technology can display at full resolution.

Now, you can record an upconverted dvd onto a BluRay, which apparently is what was done with Manilla. Will it look a little bit better? Yes. Is it full BluRay quality? No. Is it full quality the original film was shot with? Not even close. Presuming the original edit of the concert was done in full quality, that means there is a RED and Blu-Ray version out there. Will it be released? Who knows.


so, to wrap up....
can a BluRay player or a dvd player upconvert? Yes
does a BluRay player need to upconvert if you have a BluRay movie? No, as long as the program was recorded in 1080p (or whatever maximum resolution your tv will support).

There are a couple of caveats to this, but that's video technology in a nutshell.

Thanks for this information, kgdjpubs! Very informative article you've shared!

Milan

rockphantom wrote:Thanks for this information, kgdjpubs! Very informative article you've shared!

Milan

that isn't an article. Having some knowledge of video production does help however in trying to answer questions and correct misinformation. I'm glad someone found it useful though.

Thanks for the clarification

kgdjpubs wrote:

Eric wrote:

Ehwmatt wrote:Didn't we determine that this isn't truly a Blu-Ray, but an upconvert of the base Manila DVD? Just a warning to those considering forking $30 over.

Yeah..and honestly Blu-ray players up-convert anyway.

***Caution. Technical discussion coming***

Let me clarify something slightly. A DVD player can upconvert to whatever your tv will handle. So can a BluRay player. It's MUCH more complicated than that, however. The clarity of video is simply dependent on two things. The first is how clear the camera is shooting (in laymans terms, an HD camera gives you more lines of resolution than a VHS camera). The Manilla show was shot with a RED camera, which will display a sharper image than ANY television set you can buy. Basic lesson: the camera was VERY sharp.

The second point is how much data you are writing onto the disc. This is simply a case of numbers. The more data you write per frame of video, the clearer the image is (up to the point of exceeding what the camera recorded to begin with). The higher the number, the more detail. Your video encoding is down to how many megabytes/second are being thrown at your television set. The only difference between a Blu-Ray player and a DVD player is that the Blu-Ray player can handle more data coming at it every second. Your dvd holds roughly 5gb of data. Your Blu-Ray holds 25+gb of data. Spread that out over the course of a two hour movie, and obviously, the Blu-Ray has more data per frame of video --> clearer image. If you are putting out images at 8Mbps/sec (DVD) vs. 25Mbps/sec (Blu-Ray), you are going to see a LOT of detail in the Blu-Ray that the dvd simply doesn't have the bitrate to handle. It's that simple.

On the subject of upconverting...your dvd (if short enough for optimal quality without compression to fit on a disc) is encoded at whatever number of lines of resolution that the camera recorded. If it was recorded on an older format, you don't have nearly the number of lines of resolution that a current television set will handle to work with. The dvd (and Blu-Ray player) can attempt to fill in the missing gaps, aka upconvert , if you want it to do so. With movies, there is no need to do such IF the film was encoded to a high enough level (aka enough data/frame on the disc). At the moment, that means Blu-Ray. You can encode a Blu-Ray to play at full 1080p. You can't upconvert beyond what your tv set will allow, so if the movie is encoded at 1080p, there is no upconverting going on when you are playing a movie. Remember, Hollywood films were shot to be played on a 70-foot wide movie screen. Your tv is nowhere near that big. That means the movies have been DOWNCONVERTED so you can play them. That means there is detail on the image that you'll never see because the technology won't support that much data/frame to show it. The Manilla show is the same way. It was recorded at a higher level than current technology can display at full resolution.

Now, you can record an upconverted dvd onto a BluRay, which apparently is what was done with Manilla. Will it look a little bit better? Yes. Is it full BluRay quality? No. Is it full quality the original film was shot with? Not even close. Presuming the original edit of the concert was done in full quality, that means there is a RED and Blu-Ray version out there. Will it be released? Who knows.


so, to wrap up....
can a BluRay player or a dvd player upconvert? Yes
does a BluRay player need to upconvert if you have a BluRay movie? No, as long as the program was recorded in 1080p (or whatever maximum resolution your tv will support).

There are a couple of caveats to this, but that's video technology in a nutshell.

My head almost exploded trying to absorb all of this.

Thanks for clarifying it though. Good to know it was recorded in that resolution.

Rick wrote:
My head almost exploded trying to absorb all of this.

Thanks for clarifying it though. Good to know it was recorded in that resolution.

That was where the "warning: technical discussion" disclaimer came in. Unfortunately, I don't know how to make it any less technical than what I said.

The part of the Manilla dvd that I didn't mention though is because of the length of the concert, or other variables, the average bitrate is closer to the 5-6Mbps/sec level than the 8Mbps/sec that would be close to optimum for a dvd. That means you are getting worse quality than you should, all things being equal. That's why the dvd doesn't look good. If you have a display button on your dvd remote, you should be able to see the average bitrate on the scene. It was recorded in a variable bitrate, as are most every program over an hour in length, but it's pretty easy to get a general number. Compare it to another dvd and you will notice it's pretty low.

Using your head explosion as an example...just understand that if you had a movie of your head explosion that the bitrate would go up during the explosion itself because of the amount of "data" flying at the camera, compared to a lower bitrate previous when all you had moving was your mouth. That's variable bitrate in a nutshell. No need to use excess bits of data on a disc unless you really need them.

The good news is that there is a version of Manilla that is in high enough resolution to look good on a movie theatre screen. It was filmed in a way to be one of the clearest concert dvds out there. Obviously, the version we have isn't even close.

If you have managed to put your head back together after reading this, I'll attempt to answer/clarify any questions....on the video part, not the head stitching process, of course!

kgdjpubs wrote:

Rick wrote:
My head almost exploded trying to absorb all of this.

Thanks for clarifying it though. Good to know it was recorded in that resolution.

That was where the "warning: technical discussion" disclaimer came in. Unfortunately, I don't know how to make it any less technical than what I said.

The part of the Manilla dvd that I didn't mention though is because of the length of the concert, or other variables, the average bitrate is closer to the 5-6Mbps/sec level than the 8Mbps/sec that would be close to optimum for a dvd. That means you are getting worse quality than you should, all things being equal. That's why the dvd doesn't look good. If you have a display button on your dvd remote, you should be able to see the average bitrate on the scene. It was recorded in a variable bitrate, as are most every program over an hour in length, but it's pretty easy to get a general number. Compare it to another dvd and you will notice it's pretty low.

Using your head explosion as an example...just understand that if you had a movie of your head explosion that the bitrate would go up during the explosion itself because of the amount of "data" flying at the camera, compared to a lower bitrate previous when all you had moving was your mouth. That's variable bitrate in a nutshell. No need to use excess bits of data on a disc unless you really need them.

The good news is that there is a version of Manilla that is in high enough resolution to look good on a movie theatre screen. It was filmed in a way to be one of the clearest concert dvds out there. Obviously, the version we have isn't even close.

I don't even have a Blu-Ray player. My wife and I are of the opinion that DVD's are clear enough for us. We can see worth a crap anyway. As for my head exploding, there wouldn't be that much data flying at the camera, as my head is virtually empty.

Rick wrote:

kgdjpubs wrote:

Rick wrote:
My head almost exploded trying to absorb all of this.

Thanks for clarifying it though. Good to know it was recorded in that resolution.

That was where the "warning: technical discussion" disclaimer came in. Unfortunately, I don't know how to make it any less technical than what I said.

The part of the Manilla dvd that I didn't mention though is because of the length of the concert, or other variables, the average bitrate is closer to the 5-6Mbps/sec level than the 8Mbps/sec that would be close to optimum for a dvd. That means you are getting worse quality than you should, all things being equal. That's why the dvd doesn't look good. If you have a display button on your dvd remote, you should be able to see the average bitrate on the scene. It was recorded in a variable bitrate, as are most every program over an hour in length, but it's pretty easy to get a general number. Compare it to another dvd and you will notice it's pretty low.

Using your head explosion as an example...just understand that if you had a movie of your head explosion that the bitrate would go up during the explosion itself because of the amount of "data" flying at the camera, compared to a lower bitrate previous when all you had moving was your mouth. That's variable bitrate in a nutshell. No need to use excess bits of data on a disc unless you really need them.

The good news is that there is a version of Manilla that is in high enough resolution to look good on a movie theatre screen. It was filmed in a way to be one of the clearest concert dvds out there. Obviously, the version we have isn't even close.

I don't even have a Blu-Ray player. My wife and I are of the opinion that DVD's are clear enough for us. We can see worth a crap anyway. As for my head exploding, there wouldn't be that much data flying at the camera, as my head is virtually empty.

quite honestly, most movies aren't worth the upgrade. Remember, it's a case of how much detail you want to see. On a drama, you aren't missing much. On some big expansive film with wide vistas and a lot of detail going on (think big action film), you may notice a difference that would be worthwhile to splurge for the BluRay. Unfortunately, what it doesn't do is give you a better movie.

kgdjpubs wrote:

Rick wrote:

kgdjpubs wrote:

Rick wrote:
My head almost exploded trying to absorb all of this.

Thanks for clarifying it though. Good to know it was recorded in that resolution.

That was where the "warning: technical discussion" disclaimer came in. Unfortunately, I don't know how to make it any less technical than what I said.

The part of the Manilla dvd that I didn't mention though is because of the length of the concert, or other variables, the average bitrate is closer to the 5-6Mbps/sec level than the 8Mbps/sec that would be close to optimum for a dvd. That means you are getting worse quality than you should, all things being equal. That's why the dvd doesn't look good. If you have a display button on your dvd remote, you should be able to see the average bitrate on the scene. It was recorded in a variable bitrate, as are most every program over an hour in length, but it's pretty easy to get a general number. Compare it to another dvd and you will notice it's pretty low.

Using your head explosion as an example...just understand that if you had a movie of your head explosion that the bitrate would go up during the explosion itself because of the amount of "data" flying at the camera, compared to a lower bitrate previous when all you had moving was your mouth. That's variable bitrate in a nutshell. No need to use excess bits of data on a disc unless you really need them.

The good news is that there is a version of Manilla that is in high enough resolution to look good on a movie theatre screen. It was filmed in a way to be one of the clearest concert dvds out there. Obviously, the version we have isn't even close.

I don't even have a Blu-Ray player. My wife and I are of the opinion that DVD's are clear enough for us. We can see worth a crap anyway. As for my head exploding, there wouldn't be that much data flying at the camera, as my head is virtually empty.

quite honestly, most movies aren't worth the upgrade. Remember, it's a case of how much detail you want to see. On a drama, you aren't missing much. On some big expansive film with wide vistas and a lot of detail going on (think big action film), you may notice a difference that would be worthwhile to splurge for the BluRay. Unfortunately, what it doesn't do is give you a better movie.

Now that's an idea.

For $5.99, you can buy the movie with a mediocre plot and small amount of action.
For $9.99, you can buy the movie with an expanded plot and large amount of action.
For $14.99, the movie will make your head explode.

[quote="Glenn"]Reading reviews on amazon about the sound...Most are saying it's a step up...

Does anyone here have the Blu Ray?


I have it. Looks amazing. Sounds the same.

FamilyMan wrote:

Glenn wrote:Reading reviews on amazon about the sound...Most are saying it's a step up...

Does anyone here have the Blu Ray?


I have it. Looks amazing. Sounds the same.

I thought there wasn't really such a thing and that the ones that are supposedly out there are not the real deal.

Is there a real Blu-Ray of this and if so, where can I get the real one? I don't understand the complaints about the sound.
I have a Denon high end surround and the sound is fantastic to my ears. I hear the crowd, loud and clear on it too.

steveo777 wrote:

FamilyMan wrote:

Glenn wrote:Reading reviews on amazon about the sound...Most are saying it's a step up...

Does anyone here have the Blu Ray?


I have it. Looks amazing. Sounds the same.

I thought there wasn't really such a thing and that the ones that are supposedly out there are not the real deal.

Is there a real Blu-Ray of this and if so, where can I get the real one? I don't understand the complaints about the sound.
I have a Denon high end surround and the sound is fantastic to my ears. I hear the crowd, loud and clear on it too.

Feels completely muffled to me. And there's hardly any low-end.
I'd still put the Escape '81 DVD's sound above any live videos Journey's released since...

kgdjpubs wrote:

Rick wrote:

kgdjpubs wrote:

Rick wrote:
My head almost exploded trying to absorb all of this.

Thanks for clarifying it though. Good to know it was recorded in that resolution.

That was where the "warning: technical discussion" disclaimer came in. Unfortunately, I don't know how to make it any less technical than what I said.

The part of the Manilla dvd that I didn't mention though is because of the length of the concert, or other variables, the average bitrate is closer to the 5-6Mbps/sec level than the 8Mbps/sec that would be close to optimum for a dvd. That means you are getting worse quality than you should, all things being equal. That's why the dvd doesn't look good. If you have a display button on your dvd remote, you should be able to see the average bitrate on the scene. It was recorded in a variable bitrate, as are most every program over an hour in length, but it's pretty easy to get a general number. Compare it to another dvd and you will notice it's pretty low.

Using your head explosion as an example...just understand that if you had a movie of your head explosion that the bitrate would go up during the explosion itself because of the amount of "data" flying at the camera, compared to a lower bitrate previous when all you had moving was your mouth. That's variable bitrate in a nutshell. No need to use excess bits of data on a disc unless you really need them.

The good news is that there is a version of Manilla that is in high enough resolution to look good on a movie theatre screen. It was filmed in a way to be one of the clearest concert dvds out there. Obviously, the version we have isn't even close.

I don't even have a Blu-Ray player. My wife and I are of the opinion that DVD's are clear enough for us. We can see worth a crap anyway. As for my head exploding, there wouldn't be that much data flying at the camera, as my head is virtually empty.

quite honestly, most movies aren't worth the upgrade. Remember, it's a case of how much detail you want to see. On a drama, you aren't missing much. On some big expansive film with wide vistas and a lot of detail going on (think big action film), you may notice a difference that would be worthwhile to splurge for the BluRay. Unfortunately, what it doesn't do is give you a better movie.

I've really only gotten my hands on a few BluRays that do the technology any justice, imo. They include:

The Dark Knight (with OmniMAX scenes in full screen HD - mind-blowing)
Elton John's 60th Birthday Concert at Madison Square Garden (mind-blowing video, and even more unbelievable mind-blowing sound)
Bruce Springsteen Live at Hyde Park
Avatar (crappy movie though)
Mel Gibson's Apocalypto
Beowulf