MR

I think a lot of fans, (not necessarily the ones on this site) wanted to believe it was the new music that drove Revelation sales and that Eclipse, sans any Perry penned songs would be the final explanation point that Journey could reinvent itself and be seen as a 'New Journey' moving forward.

What we have seen with previous releases though tells us that without any type of association from that older era, the retail market just isn't the same for this band.
Arrival got outsold by the latter released Essential Journey Package within the same sales year because people wanted the legacy stuff over any perceived 'new direction' the band might be going.
Eight years later, things didn't really change. Wal-Mart knew what its costumers were interested in buying. Only Neal's persitant hammering on them to allow more than four new songs on the album got the package turned into a three disc piece.
The initial sales for Eclipse basically proves that Wal-Mart got it right the first time in 2008 as in knowing what their consumers really wanted.

No promo and all that other stuff definitely factors in when explaining the initial low sales figures for Eclipse but with all the DSB exposure over the last year, 850,000 purchasers of Revelation didn't just forget who Journey is. The product itself may just not be what they are particularily interested in.

I'm not so sure, Don. Afterall, the retreads on Revelation were not very good. In fact, I think they were dreadful, for the most part, and not because of Arnel. Besides, why, if it were the legacy sound and hits you were after, would one not simply pick up the remastered Greatest Hits? It doesn't add up, to me.

Don,What you posted smacks of truth as much as many of us want it to be different. IMO, this is no
reflection on the quality of their work at this point. I believe that if Journey were to release Escape
for the first time in this day and age it would fare no better, probably worse, because they would
be a relative unknown. But, they would also be with a major label like Sony who would promote
the shit out of them.

Majestic wrote:I'm not so sure, Don. Afterall, the retreads on Revelation were not very good. In fact, I think they were dreadful, for the most part, and not because of Arnel. Besides, why, if it were the legacy sound and hits you were after, would one not simply pick up the remastered Greatest Hits? It doesn't add up, to me.

People buy stuff on impulse. As a casual music fan, you can't actually take the retreads for a spin when you see the Rev package sitting in the endcap at the store. You look at price, the songs, the free DVD and then you just make a quick decision and move on. Familiarity with songs on the track listing probably makes the purchasing decision in the case of Revelation a lot easier and for that killer price, what's to lose?

Eclipse is head and shoulders the superior product IF you're a big fan of Journey. If you were just somene looking to relive some old memories with a new twist, Revelation would be the obvious choice.

steveo777 wrote:Don,What you posted smacks of truth as much as many of us want it to be different. IMO, this is no
reflection on the quality of their work at this point. I believe that if Journey were to release Escape
for the first time in this day and age it would fare no better, probably worse, because they would
be a relative unknown. But, they would also be with a major label like Sony who would promote
the shit out of them.

Blablabla.

You done sucking on Neals left nut ?!
If they had released Eclipse 20 years ago , it wouldn't have sold much more than it does now .

B, you and Steve are cracking me up. You two are exactly the same creature, with a different fixation.

Gideon wrote:B, you and Steve are cracking me up. You two are exactly the same creature, with a different fixation.

Just like you and JasonD are the exact same creature with the exact same fixation !

I'm not a perry fan. I think Arnel and Perry are great singers if you like cheesy girlie songs.
Rockier songa need more masculine voice. There's female singers out there that could sing Eclipse song better.

Behshad wrote:Just like you and JasonD are the exact same creature with the exact same fixation !

I didn't realize Jason was fixated with my dick.

Beshad wrote:I'm not a perry fan. I think Arnel and Perry are great singers if you like cheesy girlie songs.
Rockier songa need more masculine voice. There's female singers out there that could sing Eclipse song better.

Right, but you're a JSS fan. If Steve was going around saying the same thing about JSS/WET that you are about Journey and Eclipse, you'd probably explode with indignation.

Gideon wrote:

Behshad wrote:Just like you and JasonD are the exact same creature with the exact same fixation !

I didn't realize Jason was fixated with my dick.

Beshad wrote:I'm not a perry fan. I think Arnel and Perry are great singers if you like cheesy girlie songs.
Rockier songa need more masculine voice. There's female singers out there that could sing Eclipse song better.

Right, but you're a JSS fan. If Steve was going around saying the same thing about JSS/WET that you are about Journey and Eclipse, you'd probably explode with indignation.

That's where you're wrong. I don't give a ratt's ass what Steveo thinks about WET.
One after one , most of you will realize that my initial post in the Eclipse review thread was spot on .

And dont lie about not knowing about JasonD and his intentions/fixations

People don't want a new Journey, nor a new U2, Bon Jovi, Leppard and so on. Bon Jovi and U2 were the top touring acts of the last year but those ticket sales didn't equate to album purchases. Both of their releases barely made Platinum while concert receipts were over 150 million. Roger Waters is touring a show based soley around a 30 year old album and still selling out world wide.

If you are an old artist, the fans want what you created when you (and they) weren't old. They have no care for what you can do while you're in your twilight years.
The majority of Fans go to these concerts to remember their youth, not to listen to new music from old people.

It's only people like us that roam around on '80s music message boards all day that want to see something fresh from these bands and we are definitely in the minority.

Don wrote:People don't want a new Journey, nor a new U2, Bon Jovi, Leppard and so on. Bon Jovi and U2 were the top touring acts of the last year but those ticket sales didn't equate to album purchases. Both of their releases barely made Platinum while concert receipts were over 150 million. Roger Waters is touring a show based soley around a 30 year old album and still selling out world wide.

If you are an old artist, the fans want what you created when you (and they) weren't old. They have no care for what you can do while you're in your twilight years.
The majority of Fans go to these concerts to remember their youth, not to listen to new music from old people.

Bingo

Don wrote:People don't want a new Journey, nor a new U2, Bon Jovi, Leppard and so on. Bon Jovi and U2 were the top touring acts of the last year but those ticket sales didn't equate to album purchases. Both of their releases barely made Platinum while concert receipts were over 150 million. Roger Waters is touring a show based soley around a 30 year old album and still selling out world wide.

If you are an old artist, the fans want what you created when you (and they) weren't old. They have no care for what you can do while you're in your twilight years.
The majority of Fans go to these concerts to remember their youth, not to listen to new music from old people.

It's only people like us that roam around on '80s music message boards all day that want to see something fresh from these bands and we are definitely in the minority.

True, for the most part, but I think U2 does not fall into that category completely. They have a fanbase that spans all age groups. I think people were underwhelmed by their newest album and reviews weren't that great, but they still sold five million worldwide but only went platinum in the U.S..

Their 2005 How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb was a huge hit with 9 million albums sold and they won nine grammys that year and were multi-platinum here.. Pretty impressive for a band from the '80s. If they had pulled out of their hat another album like that with a great single like Vertigo and a more rockier album, I believe the five million would have been much higher and they would have gone higher than just platinum in the U.S, but it would have to be a great album like HTDAAB, which I consider a great album.

Don wrote:People don't want a new Journey, nor a new U2, Bon Jovi, Leppard and so on. Bon Jovi and U2 were the top touring acts of the last year but those ticket sales didn't equate to album purchases. Both of their releases barely made Platinum while concert receipts were over 150 million. Roger Waters is touring a show based soley around a 30 year old album and still selling out world wide.

If you are an old artist, the fans want what you created when you (and they) weren't old. They have no care for what you can do while you're in your twilight years.
The majority of Fans go to these concerts to remember their youth, not to listen to new music from old people.

It's only people like us that roam around on '80s music message boards all day that want to see something fresh from these bands and we are definitely in the minority.

I disagree with this statement. The reason is because when Jovi came out and released Who Says You Can't Go Home, that album/single were huge by todays standards and opened a new generation of fans to Jovi's music. Especially since it came off a below average "Bounce" album. U2 had a similar effect because if I remember correctly How To Dismantle... was a large success that sold triple platinum. New music not selling because 'Insert excuse here' is just that reason, it's an excuse. People will still follow the music they love, but if you put together a string of albums that sucks or are lackluster you're not going to sell. Bands that you mention like Lepp, KISS, Journey, etc., haven't put out continously good selling music to make the label want to get behind the band and push them. I mean look at it this way. Leppard hasn't put out an album that would be considered a hit album since Adrenalize and even then their popularity and overall music production was starting to fade. Granted they've had a few hits in the process of that time, but nothing really worthwhile. Journey hasn't put out an excellent album since Frontiers. Again they've had a few hits in that time with some of the songs off ROR, When You Love A Woman, but what else? KISS hasn't really had a hit since "Forever" in 89.

Another thing you can actually look at is yes Journey sold '800k' in the USA since Revelation was released, but with a 2 disc album that counts as 2 units per sale. If Billboard didn't have that screwed up logic of each 2 discs of certain time counting as 2 units moved Revelation would've sold roughly as much as Arrival sold.

In conclusions yes the music industry is down, but after a certain amount of time these 'old bands' have to also start pointing their fingers of failure at themselves for not having the chops to write music that is good that the general public likes. Had Revelation actually been a decent album who knows this album might have had more success and would've sold more. Now because of how it's probably going to do in the charts you're going to hear Schon and Cain cry that people aren't buying music and all that crap. You write continuous good music it will get noticed and people will buy it.

A quick point about the 800k number. From all accounts, Revelation sold around 880,000 packages, not discs. The double count was done by the RIAA, not Billboard, hence the album receiving a Platinum award for 1.6 Million discs sold. Billboard counts one sale as one disc, regardless if it's one or five discs inside the package. When Billboard showed Revelation with 105,000 sales on its debut, those were legit numbers, no double count used.

I guess the ball will be in Journey's court if the first week numbers are poor. They may have to scramble and do some promotion they hadn't planned on doing. But the problem with that is they'll be on the road. Will be interesting to see how the next few weeks play out.

The industry being down shouldn't really hurt album debuts.
Tom Petty sold 125,000 copies during the debut week of his album, Mojo less than a year ago. Some older bands still have that huge hardcore camp that can get them great results during the first week. The weeks after though usually tell the tell. Despite the hot start, Mojo never did get above 300k sold (295,183).

Saint John wrote:I guess the ball will be in Journey's court if the first week numbers are poor. They may have to scramble and do some promotion they hadn't planned on doing. But the problem with that is they'll be on the road. Will be interesting to see how the next few weeks play out.

I bet Journey doesnt do a thing about it. They almost come across to me like they really dont care all that much about selling their album and promoting their work. Again I know many people may disagree, but when Perry was in the band the stage designs were 100 times better and their albums were always promoted.

I do hope they find some way to do a little promotion of some sort.

Don, 800,000+ for Revelation sounds high to me. I was reading where the official numbers as of april 2011 where somewhere around 760,000. Just curious what site you got 800,000+ from?

Saint John wrote:I guess the ball will be in Journey's court if the first week numbers are poor. They may have to scramble and do some promotion they hadn't planned on doing. But the problem with that is they'll be on the road. Will be interesting to see how the next few weeks play out.

Just getting decent results in the overseas market might make the band take the low sales here in stride. If they can come up with a couple hundred thousand sales in Europe and Asia by the time the tour is over, that might be enough for them to see Eclipse as a big success, even if it doesn't get any US certifications. We know no matter what, they'll still end up with at least three to four hundred thousand sales in America anyway.
Bands like Night Ranger, Mr. Big, Rick Springfield, etc. seem pretty happy to have any Country's Awards plaque on their wall, regardless of the numbers. Journey could probably learn to live with it as part of their new mantra of being a 'world' band.

Whatever their sales are, they can attribute any shortcomings to (I'd like to say failed marketing, but) no marketing. I just do not get that. Why put so much effort into making such a great sounding CD and then not market it? Herbie would have done wonderful things with this record.

Rick wrote:Whatever their sales are, they can attribute any shortcomings to (I'd like to say failed marketing, but) no marketing. I just do not get that. Why put so much effort into making such a great sounding CD and then not market it? Herbie would have done wonderful things with this record.

My thoughts exactly. Journey has a really good product with this CD. Yet no marketing? Missed opportunity, if you ask me. I hope they're placing all their marketing eggs in one basket and relying on word of mouth to drive sales. It's too easy to get lost in the shuffle. There are too many choices & too few dollars. HH understood how to market the band and, heck he even invented a few new ways.

IDK, this whole thing seems very strange...

Hey guys I just found some information on Eclipse on an itunes chart website. These are numbers for the top 100 itunes albums in a few different countries. Keep in mind these all ALL albums, not just rock albums.

In Germany it debuted #20 on Itunes Music Albums, currently it is #30
In the UK it debuted #58, currently it is way down to #85
In Italy it debuted #69, currently it is way down to #97
In Norway its sitting at #47

I noticed that every album that was released the same week as Journey's is seen on the US top 100 itunes albums, except Eclipse. It also did not chart in Canada either. Journey's greatest hits is #95 on the US top 100 albums.

There is one strong attribute I noticed about this Eclipse...it seems to have no staying power. After its debut in every country, it drops like a rocket way down the charts. These itunes chart positions maybe a good indicator of how Eclipse is doing on each countries official music charts.

jrny84 wrote:Hey guys I just found some information on Eclipse on an itunes chart website. These are numbers for the top 100 itunes albums in a few different countries. Keep in mind these all ALL albums, not just rock albums.

In Germany it debuted #20 on Itunes Music Albums, currently it is #30
In the UK it debuted #58, currently it is way down to #85
In Italy it debuted #69, currently it is way down to #97
In Norway its sitting at #47

I noticed that every album that was released the same week as Journey's is seen on the US top 100 itunes albums, except Eclipse. It also did not chart in Canada either. Journey's greatest hits is #95 on the US top 100 albums.

There is one strong attribute I noticed about this Eclipse...it seems to have no staying power. After its debut in every country, it drops like a rocket way down the charts. These itunes chart positions maybe a good indicator of how Eclipse is doing on each countries official music charts.

The album is not available on iTunes in the US. I think the drop in second day numbers comes from all the hardcore purchases the first day, people who have been waiting for it to debut.

I wonder if the tour will help sales seeing that is probably going to be the only promotion this disc will receive outside of this site or the bands official site!

pf1965 wrote:I wonder if the tour will help sales seeing that is probably going to be the only promotion this disc will receive outside of this site or the bands official site!

Maybe an extra thousand or so sales a week, once the U.S. leg starts. Unfortunately, there are no do over with album launches. Journey's Greatest Hits is usually the only thing that gets a sales bump when ever the band gets on TV, so look for that in the charts at the end of July when Journey goes on CBS to talk about ESCAPE'S 3Oth anniversary.

Personally, I blame Dokken for all of this.

No major record label has really been interested in Journey post Perry. Sony was involved with Arrival, but the fact that it was Augeri and not Perry and being leaked didn't help anything there. I also believe the WalMart deal was in the works pre-Arnel, and the GH disc is what they really wanted, and certainly they had that in the can with Augeri and probably Soto, and had they held it to 4 new tracks, I am sure that Augeri, even with his vocal troubles and the help of some studio magic, could pulled off the requested tracks for Walmart. No offense to Arnel, but I don't think him being the frontman made any difference with that deal or makes the band anymore relative than they ever have been post-Perry. Certainly, he has helped attract a certain demographic that they didn't have before, and may have helped open the door to more overseas touring, but that is hard to quantify. At least at the end of Augeri/Soto time frame, efforts were being made to tour more extensively worldwide. Like it or not, I am still of the opinion that it was a PR/media phenomenon with DSB being in Glee and the ending of the Sorpranos that sparked people's interest. It just so happened that at that time Arnel was brand new to the band, and add to that his story, and it was media gold. That has long since worn off, and what likely will result is pretty much the same result they saw with Arrival and Generations.... minimal to no promotion = low sales, and they will end up making all their money touring.

Don wrote:

Majestic wrote:I'm not so sure, Don. Afterall, the retreads on Revelation were not very good. In fact, I think they were dreadful, for the most part, and not because of Arnel. Besides, why, if it were the legacy sound and hits you were after, would one not simply pick up the remastered Greatest Hits? It doesn't add up, to me.

People buy stuff on impulse. As a casual music fan, you can't actually take the retreads for a spin when you see the Rev package sitting in the endcap at the store. You look at price, the songs, the free DVD and then you just make a quick decision and move on. Familiarity with songs on the track listing probably makes the purchasing decision in the case of Revelation a lot easier and for that killer price, what's to lose?

Eclipse is head and shoulders the superior product IF you're a big fan of Journey. If you were just somene looking to relive some old memories with a new twist, Revelation would be the obvious choice.

Maybe they made the impulse purchase, as you said, and low Eclipse sales is due to buyers remorse over Revelations. Anyone who bought it for the classics and only gave the retreads a spin, for lack of interest in new stuff, would no doubt be disappointed. I'm a die hard Journey fan, and the last time I tried to listen to the retread disk--it was just too painful. Some OK moments here or there, but it's mostly just awful, and a terrible idea.

Just wondering will a record company let a band's record flop ..so they can write it off as a tax write off?

I could honestly care less how many copies this album sales,
Where it places on the charts, or how much money it generates.
I don't benefit from any of that.

I got my copy, and I am THRILLED with the outcome,
So being the selfish person I am, I'm happy

marco17 wrote:No major record label has really been interested in Journey post Perry. Sony was involved with Arrival, but the fact that it was Augeri and not Perry and being leaked didn't help anything there. I also believe the WalMart deal was in the works pre-Arnel, and the GH disc is what they really wanted, and certainly they had that in the can with Augeri and probably Soto, and had they held it to 4 new tracks, I am sure that Augeri, even with his vocal troubles and the help of some studio magic, could pulled off the requested tracks for Walmart. No offense to Arnel, but I don't think him being the frontman made any difference with that deal or makes the band anymore relative than they ever have been post-Perry. Certainly, he has helped attract a certain demographic that they didn't have before, and may have helped open the door to more overseas touring, but that is hard to quantify. At least at the end of Augeri/Soto time frame, efforts were being made to tour more extensively worldwide. Like it or not, I am still of the opinion that it was a PR/media phenomenon with DSB being in Glee and the ending of the Sorpranos that sparked people's interest. It just so happened that at that time Arnel was brand new to the band, and add to that his story, and it was media gold. That has long since worn off, and what likely will result is pretty much the same result they saw with Arrival and Generations.... minimal to no promotion = low sales, and they will end up making all their money touring.

I think the Arnel story helped as much as anything else. He's definitely the goose that laid the golden egg in that band. They made him a full member. If I were Castronovo, I'd go on strike. He's got the perfect backing vocals and is a great drummer for that band.