MR

DISCLAIMER:
Let me first state for the record for those who may not know me, my genuine admiration and respect for the band, or my relationship with Arnel, that I have been solidly in AP's corner since before he ever uttered a note as the lead singer of this band, all the way through to present day and everything in between. I have written numerous articles about AP, several of which have been picked up by print media outlets (mostly in Asia) and all of which have been nothing but positive in their tenor and subject matter, and finally that AP and I know each other well enough that we consider each other friends.

Now, I felt like I had to state all that so that the question I'm about to ask doesn't get me crucified by those who might otherwise find reason to do so had I not made the previous statements. Still with me? Here we go....

Is it just me or does Arnel's diction and articulation seem to be more pronounced on Eclipse than it did on Revelation? It's not an insult or a dig at him in any way whatsoever. I'm just saying that after listening to the songs enough times now while also reading the lyrics, there seems to be more words that just don't sound like what's printed on the lyrics sheet even though you can tell that what he's saying is the correct word. It's mostly noticeable on Tantra perhaps due to the absence of other distractions (guitars, Deen's bombastic-ness, etc.)

The weird thing is I know his pronunciation has improved sooooo much in the past 3-4 years which is evident in every sound bite I've heard, every conversation I've had with him and of course, the live performances he's done since joining the band. What's weird is that you can take just about any song he recorded prior to getting the gig and compare his diction then to just about anything on Eclipse and he sounds like the improvements never happened.

Anybody else notice this?

And again... I'm not complaining or attacking him - I'm just asking if anyone else has made the same observations.

I think he's using his natural voice more on this album so you're definitely going to get some of that Pinoy twang. Kevin Shirley did say he was pissed when Arnel showed up and seemed to have regressed dramtically with his diction. Even when Jon brought Arnel back to re-record the vocals a second time, it seems they just pulled him in with no vocal prep time.

In some songs yes he sounds weird , even worse than Revelation but i think it's not because of diction/articulation problems, those have been improved a lot since 2008, you can see it on the live clips. I dunno, it seems some of his vocals were recorded in a hurry , maybe unrehearsed or with a tight deadline, that's what i get at least; there is a 'rush' feeling around...

steveo777 wrote:If you were a friend, why would you do this here and now?
Jesus fucking christ! I didn't ever want to believe you were a backstabber, but you essentially just did!

Noooooo! See, that's why I took the time to state what I did and I even chose my words carefully so that I hopefully wouldn't come across that way. I'm not taking a stab at him at all. And I didn't say that I think his vocal abilities and performances on Eclipse were bad or that they were diminished by what I'm hearing. I just think his delivery of certain words is not as polished and "western" in their delivery as they have been on other occasions.

Now, if you want to get me started as a backstabber.... what's the deal with his height? J U S T K I D D I N G !!!!!!

Seriously though, please don't read anything into what I'm asking other than what I wrote. I personally don't have a problem with his diction - never did.

Somebody felt like saying something mean on the internet tonight........

Where did I say that, Steve?

We can't wait until the band is done licking wounds from the debut sales before we start down this avenue again? (okay, that was serious)

steveo777 wrote:Somebody felt like saying something mean on the internet tonight........

Where did I say that, Steve?

We can't wait until the band is done licking wounds from the debut sales before we start down this avenue again? (okay, that was serious)

What wounds? Remember, they don't care about how many records sell.

steveo777 wrote:
Where did I say that, Steve?

Wow, I musta been sleep typing or hallucinating.

We can't wait until the band is done licking wounds from the debut sales before we start down this avenue again? (okay, that was serious)

I guess I've listened to the album enough times now that I wanted to discuss it to see if anyone else noticed it as well. That's the problem with being seemingly the only diehard Journey fan from this fucked up state that I don't get to discuss this kind of shit with anyone locally so my discussion in topics related to Journey are always online in forums like this one. However, your last question in your reply is valid. It probably is a bit early to bring up things which could potentially open big, fat cans of worms given the history of that particular subject.

Seriously, this isn't Arnel's fansite, we don't need to pussy foot around subjects like this, though honestly, I didn't notice many accent problems with the possible exception of Tantra.

JRNYMAN wrote:

steveo777 wrote:
Where did I say that, Steve?

Wow, I musta been sleep typing or hallucinating.

We can't wait until the band is done licking wounds from the debut sales before we start down this avenue again? (okay, that was serious)

I guess I've listened to the album enough times now that I wanted to discuss it to see if anyone else noticed it as well. That's the problem with being seemingly the only diehard Journey fan from this fucked up state that I don't get to discuss this kind of shit with anyone locally so my discussion in topics related to Journey are always online in forums like this one. However, your last question in your reply is valid. It probably is a bit early to bring up things which could potentially open big, fat cans of worms given the history of that particular subject.

Thank you. I'm signing off at 5 beeaaaarrrrrss only.

Good night.

Don wrote:Seriously, this isn't Arnel's fansite, we don't need to pussy foot around subjects like this, though honestly, I didn't notice many accent problems with the possible exception of Tantra.

It's actually more noticeable if you're following along with the lyrics - if that even makes any sense. Most are subtle and are just situations where he puts the emphasis on the wrong syllable, etc. But yeah, Tantra, due to Arnel's vocals being so much more focal and clear really shows what I'm talking about.

JRNYMAN wrote:

Don wrote:Seriously, this isn't Arnel's fansite, we don't need to pussy foot around subjects like this, though honestly, I didn't notice many accent problems with the possible exception of Tantra.

It's actually more noticeable if you're following along with the lyrics - if that even makes any sense. Most are subtle and are just situations where he puts the emphasis on the wrong syllable, etc. But yeah, Tantra, due to Arnel's vocals being so much more focal and clear really shows what I'm talking about.

I think the fact that you know he's Pinoy and have heard him speak might color what you hear - that you might be listening too hard. Lots of times on RoR, I have no idea what Perry's singing due in part to the way he emotes Motown and Sam Cooke-isms. WCTNGOF - "Great pretendah here I go wuhhhgehnnnn.... if it weren't for the printed lyrics, I'd get around 20% of the song Raised on Radio

Maybe your ears have been trained to pick apart and look for diction issues with Arnel?

I thought he was much better this time around and only noticed a little bit in Tantra in the beginning I think it was.

koberry wrote:

JRNYMAN wrote:

Don wrote:Seriously, this isn't Arnel's fansite, we don't need to pussy foot around subjects like this, though honestly, I didn't notice many accent problems with the possible exception of Tantra.

It's actually more noticeable if you're following along with the lyrics - if that even makes any sense. Most are subtle and are just situations where he puts the emphasis on the wrong syllable, etc. But yeah, Tantra, due to Arnel's vocals being so much more focal and clear really shows what I'm talking about.

I think the fact that you know he's Pinoy and have heard him speak might color what you hear - that you might be listening too hard. Lots of times on RoR, I have no idea what Perry's singing due in part to the way he emotes Motown and Sam Cooke-isms. WCTNGOF - "Great pretendah here I go wuhhhgehnnnn.... if it weren't for the printed lyrics, I'd get around 20% of the song Raised on Radio

Maybe your ears have been trained to pick apart and look for diction issues with Arnel?

I still don't know a lot of what Steve Augeri was singing in some songs on Arrival. I had to read the lyrics or just listen along enjoying the music sometimes without quite knowing what some lines were.

Maybe it's just me but I haven't noticed any diction issues on "Eclipse".

Don wrote:Seriously, this isn't Arnel's fansite, we don't need to pussy foot around subjects like this, though honestly, I didn't notice many accent problems with the possible exception of Tantra.

Yep, me too ...and it was more the deliberate rooooowwwwnding of the words than anything.
But, JM, I understand where you're coming from and you certainly have a right to express
your thoughts ...a stab in the back?!?! I have no patience for people who insanely believe
that if every little word spoken/thought expressed about AP is not 100%, or even a lie if
necessary, it's a crime ...try as they might, it's a little different here ...ask the previous singers!!

Diction issues were the biggest pet peeve of mine with Arnel. It didn't (and still doesn't) matter to me what he looks like or where he came from. When you're singing, professionally, for an American rock band, you except the singer to sound...well...like he can speak English fluently. I know of singers who have very harsh accents because English wasn't their natural language, but when they sang in English, it sounded natural and it flowed naturally. To me, in my humble opinion, while Arnel has improved on his English, it still doesn't sound natural to me. I don't know any other way to explain it. I realize it isn't a big deal to a few folks here, and that's fine. To me, it is a big deal.

Greg wrote:Diction issues were the biggest pet peeve of mine with Arnel. It didn't (and still doesn't) matter to me what he looks like or where he came from. When you're singing, professionally, for an American rock band, you except the singer to sound...well...like he can speak English fluently. I know of singers who have very harsh accents because English wasn't their natural language, but when they sang in English, it sounded natural and it flowed naturally. To me, in my humble opinion, while Arnel has improved on his English, it still doesn't sound natural to me. I don't know any other way to explain it. I realize it isn't a big deal to a few folks here, and that's fine. To me, it is a big deal.

I think you nailed it ...so much effort being put into pronunciation and you lose
a little depth and heartfelt emotion!!

koberry wrote:I think the fact that you know he's Pinoy and have heard him speak might color what you hear - that you might be listening too hard. Lots of times on RoR, I have no idea what Perry's singing due in part to the way he emotes Motown and Sam Cooke-isms. WCTNGOF - "Great pretendah here I go wuhhhgehnnnn.... if it weren't for the printed lyrics, I'd get around 20% of the song Raised on Radio

Maybe your ears have been trained to pick apart and look for diction issues with Arnel?

Are you referring to the song Raised on Radio? "Tha Great Pretendah, return to sendah, I wonder why fools fall in love...."

The thing is, if you didn't know what that song was about, then it's true that the lyrics might not be so clear. But, if you know about our American culture in Rock and Roll, then the lyrics makes perfect sense and are easily understood. Those lyrics are lifted from old song titles from 50's / 60's rock and roll songs and phrases from some of those songs as well. "Be Bop a Lu La"..."She Loved Me Tender"....

I think there is a huge difference from not understanding song content and simply not understanding certain regular English words being sung or spoken.

Greg wrote:

koberry wrote:I think the fact that you know he's Pinoy and have heard him speak might color what you hear - that you might be listening too hard. Lots of times on RoR, I have no idea what Perry's singing due in part to the way he emotes Motown and Sam Cooke-isms. WCTNGOF - "Great pretendah here I go wuhhhgehnnnn.... if it weren't for the printed lyrics, I'd get around 20% of the song Raised on Radio

Maybe your ears have been trained to pick apart and look for diction issues with Arnel?

Are you referring to the song Raised on Radio? "Tha Great Pretendah, return to sendah, I wonder why fools fall in love...."

The thing is, if you didn't know what that song was about, then it's true that the lyrics might not be so clear. But, if you know about our American culture in Rock and Roll, then the lyrics makes perfect sense and are easily understood. Those lyrics are lifted from old song titles from 50's / 60's rock and roll songs and phrases from some of those songs as well. "Be Bop a Lu La"..."She Loved Me Tender"....

I think there is a huge difference from not understanding song content and simply not understanding certain regular English words being sung or spoken.

You're both wrong it's from I'll Be Alright W/O You.

RedWingFan wrote:

Greg wrote:

koberry wrote:I think the fact that you know he's Pinoy and have heard him speak might color what you hear - that you might be listening too hard. Lots of times on RoR, I have no idea what Perry's singing due in part to the way he emotes Motown and Sam Cooke-isms. WCTNGOF - "Great pretendah here I go wuhhhgehnnnn.... if it weren't for the printed lyrics, I'd get around 20% of the song Raised on Radio

Maybe your ears have been trained to pick apart and look for diction issues with Arnel?

Are you referring to the song Raised on Radio? "Tha Great Pretendah, return to sendah, I wonder why fools fall in love...."

The thing is, if you didn't know what that song was about, then it's true that the lyrics might not be so clear. But, if you know about our American culture in Rock and Roll, then the lyrics makes perfect sense and are easily understood. Those lyrics are lifted from old song titles from 50's / 60's rock and roll songs and phrases from some of those songs as well. "Be Bop a Lu La"..."She Loved Me Tender"....

I think there is a huge difference from not understanding song content and simply not understanding certain regular English words being sung or spoken.

You're both wrong it's from I'll Be Alright W/O You.

Ah, OK! I was confused on the his long abbreviation. I was trying to remember what WCTNGOF was? That part he's referring to in "I"ll Be Alright" made perfect sense to me. I knew right away what the phrase stated. Not sure how anybody could not know what was being sung?

Greg wrote:Are you referring to the song Raised on Radio? "Tha Great Pretendah, return to sendah, I wonder why fools fall in love...."

The thing is, if you didn't know what that song was about, then it's true that the lyrics might not be so clear. But, if you know about our American culture in Rock and Roll, then the lyrics makes perfect sense and are easily understood. Those lyrics are lifted from old song titles from 50's / 60's rock and roll songs and phrases from some of those songs as well. "Be Bop a Lu La"..."She Loved Me Tender"....

I think there is a huge difference from not understanding song content and simply not understanding certain regular English words being sung or spoken.

That is what I believe the reason why most of you here will not be able to feel what Arnel is emoting. And to the extent do not understand what he is singing. He has its own way in expressing his emotions and I can certainly feel that and to some here but it is just different. It has something to do with the culture. Living with the culture is the best way to understand and it goes both ways. If Arnel stays longer overseas, he might be able to adapt faster.

EDIT: And oh, I noticed the change in his vocals when they started the Hawaii tour. He is taking time to sing the songs removing the feel of rushing.

I think Arnel's diction on Eclipse is better than some American singers I've heard.

SYNCH wrote:That is what I believe the reason why most of you here will not be able to feel what Arnel is emoting. And to the extent do not understand what he is singing. He has its own way in expressing his emotions and I can certainly feel that and to some here but it is just different. It has something to do with the culture. Living with the culture is the best way to understand and it goes both ways. If Arnel stays longer overseas, he might be able to adapt faster.

Actually I would tend to disagree with that. Emoting is emoting, whether it be in english, spanish, etc. Emoting is in the delivery not the lyrics or pronounciation. I think you either got it or you don't. A great emoter can be singing about anything, hell even toilet paper doesn't matter, if done with enough great R&B vocal runs and soulful delivery. IMO heartfelt emoting of a song is not in the lyrics, but in the delivery of them. I have no problem whatsoever with Arnel's diction, I just don't hear the depth, tone, and raw emotion that make a vocalist my favorite.

Deb wrote:

SYNCH wrote:That is what I believe the reason why most of you here will not be able to feel what Arnel is emoting. And to the extent do not understand what he is singing. He has its own way in expressing his emotions and I can certainly feel that and to some here but it is just different. It has something to do with the culture. Living with the culture is the best way to understand and it goes both ways. If Arnel stays longer overseas, he might be able to adapt faster.

Actually I would tend to disagree with that. Emoting is emoting, whether it be in english, spanish, etc. Emoting is in the delivery not the lyrics or pronounciation. I think you either got it or you don't. A great emoter can be singing about anything, hell even toilet paper doesn't matter, if done with enough great R&B vocal runs and soulful delivery. IMO heartfelt emoting of a song is not in the lyrics, but in the delivery of them. I have no problem whatsoever with Arnel's diction, I just don't hear the depth, tone, and raw emotion that make a vocalist my favorite.

+1 I love the way you're using our brain today!! Primary example ...ever heard Enrique Iglesias?!?! I sometimes can't understand one word he's saying, but dude can emote!!

Michigan Girl wrote:

Deb wrote:

SYNCH wrote:That is what I believe the reason why most of you here will not be able to feel what Arnel is emoting. And to the extent do not understand what he is singing. He has its own way in expressing his emotions and I can certainly feel that and to some here but it is just different. It has something to do with the culture. Living with the culture is the best way to understand and it goes both ways. If Arnel stays longer overseas, he might be able to adapt faster.

Actually I would tend to disagree with that. Emoting is emoting, whether it be in english, spanish, etc. Emoting is in the delivery not the lyrics or pronounciation. I think you either got it or you don't. A great emoter can be singing about anything, hell even toilet paper doesn't matter, if done with enough great R&B vocal runs and soulful delivery. IMO heartfelt emoting of a song is not in the lyrics, but in the delivery of them. I have no problem whatsoever with Arnel's diction, I just don't hear the depth, tone, and raw emotion that make a vocalist my favorite.

+1 I love the way you're using our brain today!! Primary example ...ever heard Enrique Iglesias, sometimes
can't understand one word he's saying, but dude can emote!!

We're seriously using the same brain today! I was thisclose to using him and Mark Anthony as an example in my post there. How freaky is that?!

Deb wrote:

SYNCH wrote:That is what I believe the reason why most of you here will not be able to feel what Arnel is emoting. And to the extent do not understand what he is singing. He has its own way in expressing his emotions and I can certainly feel that and to some here but it is just different. It has something to do with the culture. Living with the culture is the best way to understand and it goes both ways. If Arnel stays longer overseas, he might be able to adapt faster.

Actually I would tend to disagree with that. Emoting is emoting, whether it be in english, spanish, etc. Emoting is in the delivery not the lyrics or pronounciation. I think you either got it or you don't. A great emoter can be singing about anything, hell even toilet paper doesn't matter, if done with enough great R&B vocal runs and soulful delivery. IMO heartfelt emoting of a song is not in the lyrics, but in the delivery of them. I have no problem whatsoever with Arnel's diction, I just don't hear the depth, tone, and raw emotion that make a vocalist my favorite.

Agreed 100%! I think the issue with Journey fans today is that they are confusing being able to hit every note on every song in the Journey catalog as being able to provide emotion and feeling. I would much rather hear a singer singing the lyrics as if he/she is pouring her heart out to someone, I just don't hear that with Arnel.

Greg wrote:

koberry wrote:I think the fact that you know he's Pinoy and have heard him speak might color what you hear - that you might be listening too hard. Lots of times on RoR, I have no idea what Perry's singing due in part to the way he emotes Motown and Sam Cooke-isms. WCTNGOF - "Great pretendah here I go wuhhhgehnnnn.... if it weren't for the printed lyrics, I'd get around 20% of the song Raised on Radio

Maybe your ears have been trained to pick apart and look for diction issues with Arnel?

Are you referring to the song Raised on Radio? "Tha Great Pretendah, return to sendah, I wonder why fools fall in love...."

The thing is, if you didn't know what that song was about, then it's true that the lyrics might not be so clear. But, if you know about our American culture in Rock and Roll, then the lyrics makes perfect sense and are easily understood. Those lyrics are lifted from old song titles from 50's / 60's rock and roll songs and phrases from some of those songs as well. "Be Bop a Lu La"..."She Loved Me Tender"....

I think there is a huge difference from not understanding song content and simply not understanding certain regular English words being sung or spoken.

Believe me, I know and love all those old 50's/60's hits. That's my parents' era and I grew up on it all. I saw the Four Tops & Temptations just a month or two ago...

Listening to RoR (the album) now and stand by my statement. It was quite hard to cypher Mr. P on most of that song and lots of others, too.

I definitely hear more of the accent on this album than the last. Especially in "Tantra". I mentioned this early on when people were saying it was "better". When he says "Colors" you can really hear it. He says some other words in that song too and you can hear it. MichiganGirl commented on the 'over roundness' of the vowels. I heard it more as as the accent. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. With a voice like that, the guy could read the friggin' financial news to me and I'd get off on it. Plus, with all the stuff that he does for kids and in every interview I've seen, he just seems like one incredibly cool little MoFo. Love the guy. PLUS- To hear Neal and Jon talk about how great it is to work with him speaks volumes too.

As a wannabe singer myself, I'm in constant amazement of what he can do as a singer. He's got range for days and balls. You don't usually find those two together. Even "great" singers like Robert Plant didn't have both. (not one of my favorites, but many others dig him) It's usually one of the other. Range and no Power (Hugo) or Power and No Range (lots of others, but I can't think of one this early). The diction might bother some because it's "different" than what they're used to. I didn't notice it AT ALL on Revelation and was kind of wondering what people were talking about. I DID notice it on a few of the live clips (The SuperBowl for sure and the Chile dvd, but mostly when he was talking). When I saw him in Seattle the last tour, the guy blew me away and I didn't notice any trace of accent during his vocals (I was in the front- Thanks again Dan!).

As far as Emoting- I hear plenty. Listen to him on "She's a Mystery". You can hear the guy smile as he's doing the Ooh Lah Lah line and other places. Also, "Turn Down the World Tonight" has TONS of emotion and I'm not sure how people are missing that at all.

I just think that the guy is amazing and I've thought so ever since I saw the first Youtubes. On THOSE clips, I was thinking "Wow, his pronunciation is really off, and he's really butchering the lyrics on some of the songs". However, he's for a guy where English is his second language, he was doing okay. It was more "his instrument" that I was just going "Fuuuuuu****!- This guy could be great!". Anyone can learn to control their accent. Look at the guy on House. Look at the guy that plays Batman (Do I dare post the Christian Bale takes David to the Dentist Clip again?- God, I love that clip!).

Um, okay, it's 7:22 in the morning. Guess who's on their second Mt. Dew!?

Ah, what the hell! Does anyone else laugh their ass off as much as I do when they watch this???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70r-Ca8wcVg

The_Noble_Cause wrote:I think Arnel's diction on Eclipse is better than some American singers I've heard.

DING DING DING!!!!

brywool wrote: With a voice like that, the guy could read the friggin' financial news to me and I'd get off on it.

Love that vocal appreciation, no matter who the singer may be. Nothin' like a great toe curling vocal.

brywool wrote: As a wannabe singer myself, I'm in constant amazement of what he can do as a singer. He's got range for days and balls.

Beginning to see a pattern. I see posted here, more times than not, it seems to be the guys that care much more about the range and us gals care more about the delivery/tone. Hmmm interesting.