MR

Look at Journey in the post Perry years - there is an interesting cycle at play.

Augeri
Release #1 - Arrival - traditional Journey sound - a few minor hits with HP and ATW
Release #2 - Experimental/non traditional Journey sound in Generations (and also Red 13). Big Flops...Rejected by fan base

Pineda
Release #1 - Revelation - traditional Journey sound - big AC hit with AATY and minor AC hit with WDILYL
Release #2 - Eclipse - non traditional Journey sound - to date seems like a big stiff....no potential hit material

It's almost like they do a traditional record with each new lead singer then let Neal take the wheel and get poor results. Nothing against Neal, but he is not nearly as commercial of a writer as Cain. If you want airplay, records sold, publicity, and the ability to hear these songs in concert in the future (vs. for just this tour), you have to have a album with some longevity....this ain't it.

It's not the album or the band's fault. There's ABSOLUTELY no promotion out there for it.
The album's been out a week. I would bet that with the "less than stellar" numbers, that the band is going to revamp their efforts to promote it. Might not amount to anything. But it might.
It's a better album than Arrival (which was also good) it needs to do better than it is.

This is funny, as most have been bashing Cain for a while on here saying he's cheeseball sappy. And from Jon's interview, I gather he contributed a lot of lyrics and melody on this album, anyway.

Jana wrote:This is funny, as most have been bashing Cain for a while on here saying he's cheeseball sappy. And from Jon's interview, I gather he contributed a lot of lyrics and melody on this album, anyway.

And an otherwise violent man can appear quite calm and serene while attending mass at his church....your point?

Jana wrote:This is funny, as most have been bashing Cain for a while on here saying he's cheeseball sappy. And from Jon's interview, I gather he contributed a lot of lyrics and melody on this album, anyway.

yup.
The POINT is, this band cannot do the right thing by it's fans. Actually, the fans dig the new stuff. The others who can't move ahead with them will never be happy, so why should they try to please them?
For me, I'm SO glad the band has chosen to do something different than "Don't Stop Believing" for a third time.

brywool wrote:

Jana wrote:This is funny, as most have been bashing Cain for a while on here saying he's cheeseball sappy. And from Jon's interview, I gather he contributed a lot of lyrics and melody on this album, anyway.

yup.
The POINT is, this band cannot do the right thing by it's fans. Actually, the fans dig the new stuff. The others who can't move ahead with them will never be happy, so why should they try to please them?
For me, I'm SO glad the band has chosen to do something different than "Don't Stop Believing" for a third time.

The band can do right. It's called write a good album worth of songs, don't write 3 good songs and let the rest of the album be a bunch of filler tracks.

brywool wrote:

Jana wrote:This is funny, as most have been bashing Cain for a while on here saying he's cheeseball sappy. And from Jon's interview, I gather he contributed a lot of lyrics and melody on this album, anyway.

yup.
The POINT is, this band cannot do the right thing by it's fans. Actually, the fans dig the new stuff. The others who can't move ahead with them will never be happy, so why should they try to please them?
For me, I'm SO glad the band has chosen to do something different than "Don't Stop Believing" for a third time.

I find that contradictory...Neal kicked Jeff to the curb because he couldn't handle the D12....and now all of a sudden they want to experiment? I call shenanigans on that crap right there...Journey needs to figure out what's more important....the D12, or experimenting.

S2M wrote:

brywool wrote:

Jana wrote:This is funny, as most have been bashing Cain for a while on here saying he's cheeseball sappy. And from Jon's interview, I gather he contributed a lot of lyrics and melody on this album, anyway.

yup.
The POINT is, this band cannot do the right thing by it's fans. Actually, the fans dig the new stuff. The others who can't move ahead with them will never be happy, so why should they try to please them?
For me, I'm SO glad the band has chosen to do something different than "Don't Stop Believing" for a third time.

I find that contradictory...Neal kicked Jeff to the curb because he couldn't handle the D12....and now all of a sudden they want to experiment? I call shenanigans on that crap right there...Journey needs to figure out what's more important....the D12, or experimenting.

Not only that, the "FANS" who say they would've
quit following Journey if JSS were at the helm ...the same "FANS" who say~ you're not a fan of the
band, you're a fan of the singer ... ...The worst comes out in folks when the chips are down!!

jestor92 wrote:The band can do right. It's called write a good album worth of songs, don't write 3 good songs and let the rest of the album be a bunch of filler tracks.

I think you have Eclipse confused with Generations.

Michigan Girl wrote:

S2M wrote:

brywool wrote:

Jana wrote:This is funny, as most have been bashing Cain for a while on here saying he's cheeseball sappy. And from Jon's interview, I gather he contributed a lot of lyrics and melody on this album, anyway.

yup.
The POINT is, this band cannot do the right thing by it's fans. Actually, the fans dig the new stuff. The others who can't move ahead with them will never be happy, so why should they try to please them?
For me, I'm SO glad the band has chosen to do something different than "Don't Stop Believing" for a third time.

I find that contradictory...Neal kicked Jeff to the curb because he couldn't handle the D12....and now all of a sudden they want to experiment? I call shenanigans on that crap right there...Journey needs to figure out what's more important....the D12, or experimenting.

Not only that, the "FANS" who say they would've
quit following Journey if JSS were at the helm ...the same "FANS" who say~ you're not a fan of the
band, you're a fan of the singer ... ...The worst comes out in folks when the chips are down!!

BS. You know I'm the one that said I would have move on with JSS at the helm, and I've never dissed anyone who lost interest in the band because of Augeri, JSS or Arnel and never ever called them not a fan of the band, as you say, because of it. I never write anything hateful about JSS, though, except his voice isn't for me tonewise for Journey songs, but that he shines on most of what he does outside of Journey, even if most of his music isn't for me or vocal tone doesn't move me (just a personal preference) I have even complimented him on a few Journey performances.

Many on here have stated very concise points for not caring for Arnel's voice for certain reasons, like Deb, and I have no issue with that. She certainly doesn't make vengeful comments. Why would I fault her, if I didn't like JSS? In fact, I have many friends who lost interest in Journey after Perry left. They just enjoy other music now and the classics. I may have loved loved loved Arrival and Augeri's contribution to it, but I have stated before Augeri was lackluster for a good part of his Journey tenure towards the second half. I wasn't some died-in-the-wool fan for that part of the band's career. I barely followed them, especially after the travesty of Generations. But I never go there re JSS and Jeremey on detailed reasons I didn't prefer them for the band because it would be hurtful and serve no purpose.

I am a huge Neal fan, and now that he has a singer that I feel he shines with musically I am onboard again. It doesn't mean everyone has to be. And I don't even consider the "chips" down. I get to see Journey this year with some new music I like and enjoy the album. Well, if the album doesn't sell well, that's their problem re promotion or whatever, not mine. And we will all have fun debating it. Arrival didn't sell huge either, but I so glad they made it as it is way at the top for me of favorite Journey albums.

I debate many other things on there, though, like albums, band decisions, etc. comments that I take issue with, performances, on and on. And yes they experimented, but with a great tenor voice which sounds like Journey to me.

[quote="Toph"]Look at Journey in the post Perry years - there is an interesting cycle at play.

Augeri
Release #1 - Arrival - traditional Journey sound - a few minor hits with HP and ATW
Release #2 - Experimental/non traditional Journey sound in Generations (and also Red 13). Big Flops...Rejected by fan base

Pineda
Release #1 - Revelation - traditional Journey sound - big AC hit with AATY and minor AC hit with WDILYL
Release #2 - Eclipse - non traditional Journey sound - to date seems like a big stiff....no potential hit material

It's almost like they do a traditional record with each new lead singer then let Neal take the wheel and get poor results. Nothing against Neal, but he is not nearly as commercial of a writer as Cain. If you want airplay, records sold, publicity, and the ability to hear these songs in concert in the future (vs. for just this tour), you have to have a album with some longevity....this ain't it.[/quote]


I have been through Eclipse at least 3 times now and it is about to go up on the rack to basically be never listened to again. That is sad for me after reading Andrew's glowing reviews.

I agree 100% with what Toph has just posted.

I thought the new material on Revelation was GREAT! I thought the album was GREAT!!

I sure wish that I felt the same about Eclipse.

brywool wrote:

Jana wrote:This is funny, as most have been bashing Cain for a while on here saying he's cheeseball sappy. And from Jon's interview, I gather he contributed a lot of lyrics and melody on this album, anyway.

yup.
The POINT is, this band cannot do the right thing by it's fans. Actually, the fans dig the new stuff. The others who can't move ahead with them will never be happy, so why should they try to please them?
For me, I'm SO glad the band has chosen to do something different than "Don't Stop Believing" for a third time.

Yet, that song is EXACTLY what they will be centered on when they do the CBS morning show in July. It's going to be all about The 30th Anniversary of Escape and DSB. Basically you will have the interview airing around the beginning of the US tour, so I look for the Greatest Hits, once again to be the benefactor here. They embraced DSB so hard with the Oprah episode the song has become all that Journey is. To the general public, Don't Stop Believin' will forever overshadow any new material they do now.

S2M wrote:

brywool wrote:

Jana wrote:This is funny, as most have been bashing Cain for a while on here saying he's cheeseball sappy. And from Jon's interview, I gather he contributed a lot of lyrics and melody on this album, anyway.

yup.
The POINT is, this band cannot do the right thing by it's fans. Actually, the fans dig the new stuff. The others who can't move ahead with them will never be happy, so why should they try to please them?
For me, I'm SO glad the band has chosen to do something different than "Don't Stop Believing" for a third time.

I find that contradictory...Neal kicked Jeff to the curb because he couldn't handle the D12....and now all of a sudden they want to experiment? I call shenanigans on that crap right there...Journey needs to figure out what's more important....the D12, or experimenting.

Seriously... you can't expect them to go with a guy that can't sing their greatest hits. That'd be suicide for them. If it was just "hey, we're going to be a recording band now and only tour our newest stuff" then that's fine. But if they gotta go out there and do the old stuff-- JSS sounded nothing like the old stuff and they'd have been better off handing those songs to Deen. I LIKED Soul Sirkus quite a bit and still play it a lot. It's a great record. But for Journey to tour ONLY on new stuff with something that doesn't have that Journey sound, won't work. They needed a singer that could do it all and they've found one. If they had recorded Eclipse with JSS, I'm sure it would've been decent. But it wouldn't have sounded like Journey. I'm a fan of the band... but only if they have a TENOR vocalist that can hit the high notes. If they have a baritone in there that's limiting and they can only go so far with that. With all due respect to JSS. I like him, just not with this band. As far as "kicking him to the curb"- that was obviously a business decision. They reconsidered. It happens all the time in the job market. I'm not sure why Journey fans have such a hard time with this. It sucked for JSS, but in the music business, this stuff happens. The way they did it wasn't great though, I'll give you that for sure.

jestor92 wrote:

brywool wrote:

Jana wrote:This is funny, as most have been bashing Cain for a while on here saying he's cheeseball sappy. And from Jon's interview, I gather he contributed a lot of lyrics and melody on this album, anyway.

yup.
The POINT is, this band cannot do the right thing by it's fans. Actually, the fans dig the new stuff. The others who can't move ahead with them will never be happy, so why should they try to please them?
For me, I'm SO glad the band has chosen to do something different than "Don't Stop Believing" for a third time.

The band can do right. It's called write a good album worth of songs, don't write 3 good songs and let the rest of the album be a bunch of filler tracks.

Eclipse is a brilliant album. I don't get what you think is lacking. But don't really care either.

Don wrote:Yet, that song is EXACTLY what they will be centered on when they do the CBS morning show in July. It's going to be all about The 30th Anniversary of Escape and DSB. Basically you will have the interview airing around the beginning of the US tour, so I look for the Greatest Hits, once again to be the benefactor here. They embraced DSB so hard with the Oprah episode the song has become all that Journey is. To the general public, Don't Stop Believin' will forever overshadow any new material they do now.

TRUST ME DON- This doesn't excite me and just seems dopey as hell.
Why promote something that's getting enough promotion and sales already?
They run the risk of over exposure with that song (and it IS over exposed) and a backlash of people going "Jeez Journey, is this all you can do?"

Betchya Perry won't be there for the 30th... but he'll think about it, every day...

Jana wrote:

Michigan Girl wrote:

S2M wrote:

brywool wrote:

Jana wrote:This is funny, as most have been bashing Cain for a while on here saying he's cheeseball sappy. And from Jon's interview, I gather he contributed a lot of lyrics and melody on this album, anyway.

yup.
The POINT is, this band cannot do the right thing by it's fans. Actually, the fans dig the new stuff. The others who can't move ahead with them will never be happy, so why should they try to please them?
For me, I'm SO glad the band has chosen to do something different than "Don't Stop Believing" for a third time.

I find that contradictory...Neal kicked Jeff to the curb because he couldn't handle the D12....and now all of a sudden they want to experiment? I call shenanigans on that crap right there...Journey needs to figure out what's more important....the D12, or experimenting.

Not only that, the "FANS" who say they would've
quit following Journey if JSS were at the helm ...the same "FANS" who say~ you're not a fan of the
band, you're a fan of the singer ... ...The worst comes out in folks when the chips are down!!

BS. You know I'm the one that said I would have move on with JSS at the helm,

And I'm the ONE that said I was all for this new direction ...please!!

brywool wrote:

Don wrote:Yet, that song is EXACTLY what they will be centered on when they do the CBS morning show in July. It's going to be all about The 30th Anniversary of Escape and DSB. Basically you will have the interview airing around the beginning of the US tour, so I look for the Greatest Hits, once again to be the benefactor here. They embraced DSB so hard with the Oprah episode the song has become all that Journey is. To the general public, Don't Stop Believin' will forever overshadow any new material they do now.

TRUST ME DON- This doesn't excite me and just seems dopey as hell.
Why promote something that's getting enough promotion and sales already?
They run the risk of over exposure with that song (and it IS over exposed) and a backlash of people going "Jeez Journey, is this all you can do?"

Betchya Perry won't be there for the 30th... but he'll think about it, every day...

He won't be. It was already taped and Arnel was there, not really having much to contribute to the conversation because basically it's someone elses story, not his. Just like the radio interviews where I heard Neal and Jon almost yelling at Arnel to say something. Arnel is along for the ride on all this old stuff. The new stuff is where it's his turn to have a voice but as we see, no one in the media really cares about the Journey catalog post Escape.

I don't think Perry is losing sleep over it at all. He got his royalties and partial platinum award with Revelation and all the praise from DSB being on Glee. Now that Journey has an album out without his name anywhere in the credits and the album appears to be not selling well, SP could probably care less.

They had the 20th Anniversary interviews, the 25th anniversary interviews and now this one. Nothing new to be added that hasn't been said before.

Basically, you're getting free promo for the Greatest Hits and that's about it.

Don wrote:

brywool wrote:

Don wrote:Yet, that song is EXACTLY what they will be centered on when they do the CBS morning show in July. It's going to be all about The 30th Anniversary of Escape and DSB. Basically you will have the interview airing around the beginning of the US tour, so I look for the Greatest Hits, once again to be the benefactor here. They embraced DSB so hard with the Oprah episode the song has become all that Journey is. To the general public, Don't Stop Believin' will forever overshadow any new material they do now.

TRUST ME DON- This doesn't excite me and just seems dopey as hell.
Why promote something that's getting enough promotion and sales already?
They run the risk of over exposure with that song (and it IS over exposed) and a backlash of people going "Jeez Journey, is this all you can do?"

Betchya Perry won't be there for the 30th... but he'll think about it, every day...

He won't be. It was already taped and Arnel was there, not really having much to contribute to the conversation because basically it's someone elses story, not his. Just like the radio interviews where I heard Neal and Jon almost yelling at Arnel to say something. Arnel is along for the ride on all this old stuff. The new stuff is where it's his turn to have a voice but as we see, no one in the media really cares about the Journey catalog post Escape.

I don't think Perry is losing sleep over it at all. He got his royalties and partial platinum award with Revelation and all the praise from DSB being on Glee. Now that Journey has an album out without his name anywhere in the credits and the album appears to be not selling well, SP could probably care less.

They had the 20th Anniversary interviews, the 25th anniversary interviews and now this one. Nothing new to be added that hasn't been said before.

Basically, you're getting free promo for the Greatest Hits and that's about it.

yup!

When can we expect the 20th anniversary celebration for "Baby I'm a Leaving You"? THAT will be something I can't miss!
I think that Arnel being quiet about the DSB stuff is respectful of him. He wasn't there for that.

The biggest problem for this album is that there is nothing for Azoff to exploit this time around. With Revelation, he took advantage of the rags to riches feel good story, knowing that people would suck it up like a sponge. It seems to me that he just doesn't care about how well this album does and there is no incentive to, not when you manage
a Van Halen who has a new album with Diamond Dave coming out in the near future, he'll push that album until he's blue in the face. Journey needs to take a page from Lady Gaga's book and whore themselves out to every morning & late night talk show under the sun. Maybe fire Azoff too and hire somebody who actually gives a damn too.

ebake02 wrote:The biggest problem for this album is that there is nothing for Azoff to exploit this time around. With Revelation, he took advantage of the rags to riches feel good story, knowing that people would suck it up like a sponge. It seems to me that he just doesn't care about how well this album does and there is no incentive to, not when you manage
a Van Halen who has a new album with Diamond Dave coming out in the near future, he'll push that album until he's blue in the face. Journey needs to take a page from Lady Gaga's book and whore themselves out to every morning & late night talk show under the sun. Maybe fire Azoff too and hire somebody who actually gives a damn too.

They need Azoff because of the venues. Live Nation owns half of the venues out there. You tell Azoff to take a fuck and then you're playing state fairs from here on out. The guy is like the God Father; once he takes care you up (Lucrative Wal-Mart deal), you owe him for life.

Don wrote:

brywool wrote:

Jana wrote:This is funny, as most have been bashing Cain for a while on here saying he's cheeseball sappy. And from Jon's interview, I gather he contributed a lot of lyrics and melody on this album, anyway.

yup.
The POINT is, this band cannot do the right thing by it's fans. Actually, the fans dig the new stuff. The others who can't move ahead with them will never be happy, so why should they try to please them?
For me, I'm SO glad the band has chosen to do something different than "Don't Stop Believing" for a third time.

Yet, that song is EXACTLY what they will be centered on when they do the CBS morning show in July. It's going to be all about The 30th Anniversary of Escape and DSB. Basically you will have the interview airing around the beginning of the US tour, so I look for the Greatest Hits, once again to be the benefactor here. They embraced DSB so hard with the Oprah episode the song has become all that Journey is. To the general public, Don't Stop Believin' will forever overshadow any new material they do now.

Don wrote:

ebake02 wrote:The biggest problem for this album is that there is nothing for Azoff to exploit this time around. With Revelation, he took advantage of the rags to riches feel good story, knowing that people would suck it up like a sponge. It seems to me that he just doesn't care about how well this album does and there is no incentive to, not when you manage
a Van Halen who has a new album with Diamond Dave coming out in the near future, he'll push that album until he's blue in the face. Journey needs to take a page from Lady Gaga's book and whore themselves out to every morning & late night talk show under the sun. Maybe fire Azoff too and hire somebody who actually gives a damn too.

They need Azoff because of the venues. Live Nation owns half of the venues out there. You tell Azoff to take a fuck and then you're playing state fairs from here on out. The guy is like the God Father; once he takes care you up (Lucrative Wal-Mart deal), you owe him for life.

Agreed and that explains why they draw 10,000-20,000 a show but album sales are half the battle and it seems that Azoff doesn't really give a rat's ass.

ebake02 wrote:

Don wrote:

ebake02 wrote:The biggest problem for this album is that there is nothing for Azoff to exploit this time around. With Revelation, he took advantage of the rags to riches feel good story, knowing that people would suck it up like a sponge. It seems to me that he just doesn't care about how well this album does and there is no incentive to, not when you manage
a Van Halen who has a new album with Diamond Dave coming out in the near future, he'll push that album until he's blue in the face. Journey needs to take a page from Lady Gaga's book and whore themselves out to every morning & late night talk show under the sun. Maybe fire Azoff too and hire somebody who actually gives a damn too.

They need Azoff because of the venues. Live Nation owns half of the venues out there. You tell Azoff to take a fuck and then you're playing state fairs from here on out. The guy is like the God Father; once he takes care you up (Lucrative Wal-Mart deal), you owe him for life.

Agreed and that explains why they draw 10,000-20,000 a show but album sales are half the battle and it seems that Azoff doesn't really give a rat's ass.

That's probably why he lets Neal experiment. He knows he will more than make it up on the tours.

ebake02 wrote:The biggest problem for this album is that there is nothing for Azoff to exploit this time around. With Revelation, he took advantage of the rags to riches feel good story, knowing that people would suck it up like a sponge. It seems to me that he just doesn't care about how well this album does and there is no incentive to, not when you manage
a Van Halen who has a new album with Diamond Dave coming out in the near future, he'll push that album until he's blue in the face. Journey needs to take a page from Lady Gaga's book and whore themselves out to every morning & late night talk show under the sun. Maybe fire Azoff too and hire somebody who actually gives a damn too.

Troy Carter is pretty good http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/lady-gaga-album-zooms-to-megahit-status/

Sales of “Born This Way” were also helped by a blitz of marketing through big-box retailers, traditional media outlets like HBO and lots of new media partnerships, and by a strategy of stocking the album at thousands of nontraditional retail outlets, like Hudson News, Walgreens and CVS. The idea was to make the album available everywhere, Troy Carter, Lady Gaga’s manager, said in an interview on Tuesday.

“To purchase a CD now, there aren’t a lot of places you can go,” Mr. Carter said. “It’s Best Buy, it’s Target, it’s Wal-Mart. So our thing was, with Gaga being such a household name, being able to put her in places where people shop. To be on an endcap at Whole Foods, if you see a Gaga CD, you might be familiar with her as an artist, and you might give it a chance.”

...with Gaga being such a household name,

instant demographic to sell to...

Journey doesn't have a demographic anymore... unless it includes "He WHo SHall Not Be Named"

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

jestor92 wrote:The band can do right. It's called write a good album worth of songs, don't write 3 good songs and let the rest of the album be a bunch of filler tracks.

I think you have Eclipse confused with Generations.

Always the voice of reason, T_N_C. How can one say that about Eclipse? Every song is total rockout. Even Tantra and She's a Mystery has many edgier surprises.

slucero wrote:

...with Gaga being such a household name,

instant demographic to sell to...

Journey doesn't have a demographic anymore... unless it includes "He WHo SHall Not Be Named"

Oh, they have a demographic, but 400lb people don't get out much.

YoungJRNY wrote:

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

jestor92 wrote:The band can do right. It's called write a good album worth of songs, don't write 3 good songs and let the rest of the album be a bunch of filler tracks.

I think you have Eclipse confused with Generations.

Always the voice of reason, T_N_C. How can one say that about Eclipse? Every song is total rockout. Even Tantra and She's a Mystery has many edgier surprises.

It doesn't mean people LIKE them.

steveo777 wrote:

slucero wrote:

...with Gaga being such a household name,

instant demographic to sell to...

Journey doesn't have a demographic anymore... unless it includes "He WHo SHall Not Be Named"

Oh, they have a demographic, but 400lb people don't get out much.

LOL!

Toph wrote:Look at Journey in the post Perry years - there is an interesting cycle at play.

Augeri
Release #1 - Arrival - traditional Journey sound - a few minor hits with HP and ATW
Release #2 - Experimental/non traditional Journey sound in Generations (and also Red 13). Big Flops...Rejected by fan base

Pineda
Release #1 - Revelation - traditional Journey sound - big AC hit with AATY and minor AC hit with WDILYL
Release #2 - Eclipse - non traditional Journey sound - to date seems like a big stiff....no potential hit material

It's almost like they do a traditional record with each new lead singer then let Neal take the wheel and get poor results. Nothing against Neal, but he is not nearly as commercial of a writer as Cain. If you want airplay, records sold, publicity, and the ability to hear these songs in concert in the future (vs. for just this tour), you have to have a album with some longevity....this ain't it.

I would say that these numbers are not statistically significant based on the small sample size. I suggest you conduct this research with a much larger sample size. Based on what we know about the turnover in this organization, you should be able to complete your reasearch in a few years.

Best of luck!