MR

"...when there's so many sounds to choose from?" -- Jim James, My Morning Jacket

Amen to that...and after listening to Eclipse in MP3 form for a week, I like it better than anything they have released since Frontiers too (I think someone else posted a thread about that).

As to chart performance, it seems people care a lot about that and that is fine. Personally, I really don't. Revelation appears to be seen as a success because it sold lots of units, but for me it sounded stale and boring. Maybe this is a very small minority opinion, but I reason that if I want to listen to Journey do Escape or Frontiers, I can listen to those albums...I don't need 8 inferior and contrived variations of the same theme. Personally, I've always found it most fun to listen to this band when they tried something new, even if they threw a brick every once in a while. At least it's better than trying to recreate a snapshot of a moment that is in the past and doesn't exist anymore: "the Past is frozen and no longer flows, and the Present is all lit up with eternal rays." (C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters)

Even so, I do hear a lot of Journey's musical history in this new record...there are many parts that even remind me of releases as diverse as Departure, Dream After Dream, Raised on Radio, Trial By Fire, and even Generations...and I think that is a good and rewarding thing because I think they pulled that off without sounding cliched to my personal ear, which sadly I couldn't say about Revelation or Arrival on the whole, for example. Those releases I grew bored of fairly quickly. Eclipse so far has been growing on me over time.

That doesn't mean I disagree with a lot of the things people say about the record (that it's not as "hooky," that it's not radio-friendly, that it sounds "different" from Journey, etc.). In fact, most of the basis for the criticism of this album I actually do agree with. The difference for me is that I've drawn a different conclusion based on my own tastes and what I was looking for in this release.

To me, Eclipse feels like a breath of fresh air and light in a room that had the drapes drawn and was getting musty. This sounds like a much more honest and comfortable record of where these guys are at, musically, than Revelation, which seemed super-forced and constrained -- and much less interesting -- to me.

Ditto, good take, I have the same vibes about this album. I've been listening to it since it came out, and the more I listened to it, the more I get drawn into it. This album is really awesome. I mean, there's only like two or three songs that are so so okay, but the rest man, I tell ya, I'm so loving it!!! Fuck all the sales and billboard charts.. no one cares about that crap anyway.

I think a better question is, does Neil Schon have a moral obligation to give Walmart a record that has the best possible chance to sell well.

Since he did make it on Walmart's dime with the advanced money deal.

I feel like he was playing with the house's money, and put it all on #37 and let the wheel spin and said "Screw it". Not my money.

Thoughts?

RedWingFan wrote:I think a better question is, does Neil Schon have a moral obligation to give Walmart a record that has the best possible chance to sell well.

Since he did make it on Walmart's dime with the advanced money deal.

I feel like he was playing with the house's money, and put it all on #37 and let the wheel spin and said "Screw it". Not my money.

Thoughts?

You're wrong on this. Great album....poor marketing.
I don't blame Neal for this.

RedWingFan wrote:I think a better question is, does Neil Schon have a moral obligation to give Walmart a record that has the best possible chance to sell well.

Since he did make it on Walmart's dime with the advanced money deal.

I feel like he was playing with the house's money, and put it all on #37 and let the wheel spin and said "Screw it". Not my money.

Thoughts?

Neal's a musician/artist. If there's any obligation, it's to follow his own creativity and not phone something in... you see people just going thru the motions all the time in your work life and it pisses you off. They certainly didn't coast on this one - lots of hard work and an amazing end product.

Cuz it sells, its where your fans are and what they will buy. Ask Angus Young or any other band who have stuck to the same formulae year after year

I have to agree that Neal and Jon do have a moral obligation to write "Journey" records for the sake of making their distributors, management, and themselves money. This wouldn't be so if the band had an average age of 22 years old and had not hit it big yet. But, the band's heyday has been years past, the fortunes and fame have all been achieved years ago. For Journey to keep going, they have to keep churning out records with basically the same formula, because that's what ultimately has the best chance of selling. Even though this is a "different" Journey record, it's still got all the same elements that all other Journey records have. Guitars, keyboards, tenor vocals, 80ish style of AOR. I mean, come on, let's get real. If Schon and company truly had artistic freedom, they wouldn't have needed to grab a "legacy sounding" vocalist.

It takes a lot of guts to change a band's sound completely away from what they got rich off of, to something completely different and modernistic. I think the only way a band is successful with that is if they still have the majority of their original members. A familiar voice, but completely different sound. Sometimes it works and sparks a renewed interest in the band, sometimes it's a complete failure. I think the only way Journey could have a true modernistic sound is if, yes, they had Steve Perry singing. He would be the only nod to the past that would keep the band's identity while the band traveled in new directions. Unfortunately, having a different lead singer, it's up to Neal and Jon to keep that Journey sound in the music, because the casual fans are not going to know it's Journey from the vocalist.

Greg wrote:I have to agree that Neal and Jon do have a moral obligation to write "Journey" records for the sake of making their distributors, management, and themselves money. This wouldn't be so if the band had an average age of 22 years old and had not hit it big yet. But, the band's heyday has been years past, the fortunes and fame have all been achieved years ago. For Journey to keep going, they have to keep churning out records with basically the same formula, because that's what ultimately has the best chance of selling. Even though this is a "different" Journey record, it's still got all the same elements that all other Journey records have. Guitars, keyboards, tenor vocals, 80ish style of AOR. I mean, come on, let's get real. If Schon and company truly had artistic freedom, they wouldn't have needed to grab a "legacy sounding" vocalist.

It takes a lot of guts to change a band's sound completely away from what they got rich off of, to something completely different and modernistic. I think the only way a band is successful with that is if they still have the majority of their original members. A familiar voice, but completely different sound. Sometimes it works and sparks a renewed interest in the band, sometimes it's a complete failure. I think the only way Journey could have a true modernistic sound is if, yes, they had Steve Perry singing. He would be the only nod to the past that would keep the band's identity while the band traveled in new directions. Unfortunately, having a different lead singer, it's up to Neal and Jon to keep that Journey sound in the music, because the casual fans are not going to know it's Journey from the vocalist.

Agreed. Now to play devil's advocate....If Perry would have stayed in the band (not left after TBF and came back), would they have been able to successfully pull off a concept album today? Hmmmm.

Art Vandelay wrote:

Greg wrote:I have to agree that Neal and Jon do have a moral obligation to write "Journey" records for the sake of making their distributors, management, and themselves money. This wouldn't be so if the band had an average age of 22 years old and had not hit it big yet. But, the band's heyday has been years past, the fortunes and fame have all been achieved years ago. For Journey to keep going, they have to keep churning out records with basically the same formula, because that's what ultimately has the best chance of selling. Even though this is a "different" Journey record, it's still got all the same elements that all other Journey records have. Guitars, keyboards, tenor vocals, 80ish style of AOR. I mean, come on, let's get real. If Schon and company truly had artistic freedom, they wouldn't have needed to grab a "legacy sounding" vocalist.

It takes a lot of guts to change a band's sound completely away from what they got rich off of, to something completely different and modernistic. I think the only way a band is successful with that is if they still have the majority of their original members. A familiar voice, but completely different sound. Sometimes it works and sparks a renewed interest in the band, sometimes it's a complete failure. I think the only way Journey could have a true modernistic sound is if, yes, they had Steve Perry singing. He would be the only nod to the past that would keep the band's identity while the band traveled in new directions. Unfortunately, having a different lead singer, it's up to Neal and Jon to keep that Journey sound in the music, because the casual fans are not going to know it's Journey from the vocalist.

Agreed. Now to play devil's advocate....If Perry would have stayed in the band (not left after TBF and came back), would they have been able to successfully pull off a concept album today? Hmmmm.

It's not even debatable anymore.

Art Vandelay wrote:Agreed. Now to play devil's advocate....If Perry would have stayed in the band (not left after TBF and came back), would they have been able to successfully pull off a concept album today? Hmmmm.

No he would have demanded they make a record that actually sells, gets airplay and makes a profit.

Art Vandelay wrote:

Greg wrote:I have to agree that Neal and Jon do have a moral obligation to write "Journey" records for the sake of making their distributors, management, and themselves money. This wouldn't be so if the band had an average age of 22 years old and had not hit it big yet. But, the band's heyday has been years past, the fortunes and fame have all been achieved years ago. For Journey to keep going, they have to keep churning out records with basically the same formula, because that's what ultimately has the best chance of selling. Even though this is a "different" Journey record, it's still got all the same elements that all other Journey records have. Guitars, keyboards, tenor vocals, 80ish style of AOR. I mean, come on, let's get real. If Schon and company truly had artistic freedom, they wouldn't have needed to grab a "legacy sounding" vocalist.

It takes a lot of guts to change a band's sound completely away from what they got rich off of, to something completely different and modernistic. I think the only way a band is successful with that is if they still have the majority of their original members. A familiar voice, but completely different sound. Sometimes it works and sparks a renewed interest in the band, sometimes it's a complete failure. I think the only way Journey could have a true modernistic sound is if, yes, they had Steve Perry singing. He would be the only nod to the past that would keep the band's identity while the band traveled in new directions. Unfortunately, having a different lead singer, it's up to Neal and Jon to keep that Journey sound in the music, because the casual fans are not going to know it's Journey from the vocalist.

Agreed. Now to play devil's advocate....If Perry would have stayed in the band (not left after TBF and came back), would they have been able to successfully pull off a concept album today? Hmmmm.

Well, the question would be, why would they even want to do a concept album? To be honest, I kind of cringe when I hear about bands making concept albums. Very few bands seem to make it work. I think the better question is, in what ways or which avenues would this band travel to in order to stay relevant and be commercially successful? While a lot of fans here didn't like Trial By Fire because it was "soft", it was actually the right kind of album to make for the time period in which Journey came back. If they had made another Escape album or Frontiers album, it wouldn't have sold in the 90's, because music like that just wouldn't have sold. Their sound was mature, very well put together, and that album certainly could have been huge if of course Perry had stuck with the band and toured. But, fast forward to today, if Perry was still in the band, I have a feeling the band would have continued on the path that Trial By Fire set, because stuff like that sells more than hardcore AOR sounding melodic rock. However, I think they could have maybe pulled off a "Thirty Seconds To Mars" type of sound. That would have been very interesting.

There's a difference between making the same album over and over and going a different direction. Making the same album over and over is what this band has done since Arrival and each album has continuously gotten worse. The new album is a different direction musically, but it doesn't have anything that is worth remembering. The album sans for a few tracks is weak. You want to go in a different direction, that's awesome. You better make sure as a band you have a good chunk of music and not 3 good tracks and a bunch of filler.

Art Vandelay wrote:

Greg wrote:I have to agree that Neal and Jon do have a moral obligation to write "Journey" records for the sake of making their distributors, management, and themselves money. This wouldn't be so if the band had an average age of 22 years old and had not hit it big yet. But, the band's heyday has been years past, the fortunes and fame have all been achieved years ago. For Journey to keep going, they have to keep churning out records with basically the same formula, because that's what ultimately has the best chance of selling. Even though this is a "different" Journey record, it's still got all the same elements that all other Journey records have. Guitars, keyboards, tenor vocals, 80ish style of AOR. I mean, come on, let's get real. If Schon and company truly had artistic freedom, they wouldn't have needed to grab a "legacy sounding" vocalist.

It takes a lot of guts to change a band's sound completely away from what they got rich off of, to something completely different and modernistic. I think the only way a band is successful with that is if they still have the majority of their original members. A familiar voice, but completely different sound. Sometimes it works and sparks a renewed interest in the band, sometimes it's a complete failure. I think the only way Journey could have a true modernistic sound is if, yes, they had Steve Perry singing. He would be the only nod to the past that would keep the band's identity while the band traveled in new directions. Unfortunately, having a different lead singer, it's up to Neal and Jon to keep that Journey sound in the music, because the casual fans are not going to know it's Journey from the vocalist.

Agreed. Now to play devil's advocate....If Perry would have stayed in the band (not left after TBF and came back), would they have been able to successfully pull off a concept album today? Hmmmm.

No chance in hell Perry would've even considered making a concept album.

ebake02 wrote:No chance in hell Perry would've even considered making a concept album.

I'm not so sure. Trial By Fire was definitely as much of a departure from conventional Journey as Raised on Radio was. Perhaps, given that Perry's voice was faltering, Schon could pressure him into leaning in a heavier direction.

Greg wrote:I have to agree that Neal and Jon do have a moral obligation to write "Journey" records for the sake of making their distributors, management, and themselves money. This wouldn't be so if the band had an average age of 22 years old and had not hit it big yet. But, the band's heyday has been years past, the fortunes and fame have all been achieved years ago. For Journey to keep going, they have to keep churning out records with basically the same formula, because that's what ultimately has the best chance of selling. Even though this is a "different" Journey record, it's still got all the same elements that all other Journey records have. Guitars, keyboards, tenor vocals, 80ish style of AOR. I mean, come on, let's get real. If Schon and company truly had artistic freedom, they wouldn't have needed to grab a "legacy sounding" vocalist.

It takes a lot of guts to change a band's sound completely away from what they got rich off of, to something completely different and modernistic. I think the only way a band is successful with that is if they still have the majority of their original members. A familiar voice, but completely different sound. Sometimes it works and sparks a renewed interest in the band, sometimes it's a complete failure. I think the only way Journey could have a true modernistic sound is if, yes, they had Steve Perry singing. He would be the only nod to the past that would keep the band's identity while the band traveled in new directions. Unfortunately, having a different lead singer, it's up to Neal and Jon to keep that Journey sound in the music, because the casual fans are not going to know it's Journey from the vocalist.

Going back to Time 3, With a Tear and Into Your Arms have no Perry, they're instrumentals. And they sound like Journey to me. Much of the stuff post-Perry appeals to me in the same way - still Journey. Perry is an awesome, but not required, ingredient. And see RoR for an example where more than a dash of Perry makes the cake taste (mostly) bad

RedWingFan wrote:

Art Vandelay wrote:Agreed. Now to play devil's advocate....If Perry would have stayed in the band (not left after TBF and came back), would they have been able to successfully pull off a concept album today? Hmmmm.

No he would have demanded they make a record that actually sells, gets airplay and makes a profit.

Dang, it is so easy for some people to ignore the facts in front of their faces. Wake up Johnny, time to go to school...

koberry wrote:

Greg wrote:I have to agree that Neal and Jon do have a moral obligation to write "Journey" records for the sake of making their distributors, management, and themselves money. This wouldn't be so if the band had an average age of 22 years old and had not hit it big yet. But, the band's heyday has been years past, the fortunes and fame have all been achieved years ago. For Journey to keep going, they have to keep churning out records with basically the same formula, because that's what ultimately has the best chance of selling. Even though this is a "different" Journey record, it's still got all the same elements that all other Journey records have. Guitars, keyboards, tenor vocals, 80ish style of AOR. I mean, come on, let's get real. If Schon and company truly had artistic freedom, they wouldn't have needed to grab a "legacy sounding" vocalist.

It takes a lot of guts to change a band's sound completely away from what they got rich off of, to something completely different and modernistic. I think the only way a band is successful with that is if they still have the majority of their original members. A familiar voice, but completely different sound. Sometimes it works and sparks a renewed interest in the band, sometimes it's a complete failure. I think the only way Journey could have a true modernistic sound is if, yes, they had Steve Perry singing. He would be the only nod to the past that would keep the band's identity while the band traveled in new directions. Unfortunately, having a different lead singer, it's up to Neal and Jon to keep that Journey sound in the music, because the casual fans are not going to know it's Journey from the vocalist.

Going back to Time 3, With a Tear and Into Your Arms have no Perry, they're instrumentals. And they sound like Journey to me. Much of the stuff post-Perry appeals to me in the same way - still Journey. Perry is an awesome, but not required, ingredient. And see RoR for an example where more than a dash of Perry makes the cake taste (mostly) bad

Those instrumentals were written during the Raised on Radio sessions to my understanding. Just didn't make it on the record. In fact, there is a version of With A Tear floating around in cyberspace that has Perry's vocals. As far as Perry not being a required ingredient, I would disagree. You just simply have to look at what the band accomplished with Perry and what they have accomplished without Perry. I would say Perry is, indeed, a required ingredient if Journey truly wanted to be the huge band they were years ago.

koberry wrote:

RedWingFan wrote:I think a better question is, does Neil Schon have a moral obligation to give Walmart a record that has the best possible chance to sell well.

Since he did make it on Walmart's dime with the advanced money deal.

I feel like he was playing with the house's money, and put it all on #37 and let the wheel spin and said "Screw it". Not my money.

Thoughts?

Neal's a musician/artist. If there's any obligation, it's to follow his own creativity and not phone something in... you see people just going thru the motions all the time in your work life and it pisses you off. They certainly didn't coast on this one - lots of hard work and an amazing end product.

So based on this comment, I take it you don't think they should tour on the DD, since Neal has been on record talking about how much he hates some of those songs and is therefore "phoning it in". If that's the case, Neal and Co. might be in trouble, cause I think their careers might now be over...

donnaplease wrote:

koberry wrote:

RedWingFan wrote:I think a better question is, does Neil Schon have a moral obligation to give Walmart a record that has the best possible chance to sell well.

Since he did make it on Walmart's dime with the advanced money deal.

I feel like he was playing with the house's money, and put it all on #37 and let the wheel spin and said "Screw it". Not my money.

Thoughts?

Neal's a musician/artist. If there's any obligation, it's to follow his own creativity and not phone something in... you see people just going thru the motions all the time in your work life and it pisses you off. They certainly didn't coast on this one - lots of hard work and an amazing end product.

So based on this comment, I take it you don't think they should tour on the DD, since Neal has been on record talking about how much he hates some of those songs and is therefore "phoning it in". If that's the case, Neal and Co. might be in trouble, cause I think their careers might now be over...

I'm not saying they should abandon the DD. I'm saying it's great to have new music from my favorite band. And it's great to hear them explore new directions while still remaining generally true to the Journey sound. They should be free to create. The past can't necessarily be recaptured and I think it's better to evolve and take chances than to try to adhere rigidly to a formula that unfortunately isn't as relevant anymore. They'll make 'mistakes', but it's not like Infinity through Frontiers are all radio-friendly sing-alongs and I think some people forget how deep are most of the tracks on those releases.

I like the sprinkling of new stuff in with classics like paprika, some of the new songs are great and add seasoning to the DD in the setlist. I hope that makes sense in some way. I have open ears and an open heart to all eras of the band and music still to come.

Greg wrote:

koberry wrote:

Greg wrote:I have to agree that Neal and Jon do have a moral obligation to write "Journey" records for the sake of making their distributors, management, and themselves money. This wouldn't be so if the band had an average age of 22 years old and had not hit it big yet. But, the band's heyday has been years past, the fortunes and fame have all been achieved years ago. For Journey to keep going, they have to keep churning out records with basically the same formula, because that's what ultimately has the best chance of selling. Even though this is a "different" Journey record, it's still got all the same elements that all other Journey records have. Guitars, keyboards, tenor vocals, 80ish style of AOR. I mean, come on, let's get real. If Schon and company truly had artistic freedom, they wouldn't have needed to grab a "legacy sounding" vocalist.

It takes a lot of guts to change a band's sound completely away from what they got rich off of, to something completely different and modernistic. I think the only way a band is successful with that is if they still have the majority of their original members. A familiar voice, but completely different sound. Sometimes it works and sparks a renewed interest in the band, sometimes it's a complete failure. I think the only way Journey could have a true modernistic sound is if, yes, they had Steve Perry singing. He would be the only nod to the past that would keep the band's identity while the band traveled in new directions. Unfortunately, having a different lead singer, it's up to Neal and Jon to keep that Journey sound in the music, because the casual fans are not going to know it's Journey from the vocalist.

Going back to Time 3, With a Tear and Into Your Arms have no Perry, they're instrumentals. And they sound like Journey to me. Much of the stuff post-Perry appeals to me in the same way - still Journey. Perry is an awesome, but not required, ingredient. And see RoR for an example where more than a dash of Perry makes the cake taste (mostly) bad

Those instrumentals were written during the Raised on Radio sessions to my understanding. Just didn't make it on the record. In fact, there is a version of With A Tear floating around in cyberspace that has Perry's vocals. As far as Perry not being a required ingredient, I would disagree. You just simply have to look at what the band accomplished with Perry and what they have accomplished without Perry. I would say Perry is, indeed, a required ingredient if Journey truly wanted to be the huge band they were years ago.

Dood, but move on. Perry ain't comin' back.

I, for one, am glad they they continue to create new music. Some people want to live in a time warp where the band shuts it down to preserve a legacy that doesn't really exist. I continue to hear great themes like those found in WAT & IYA in the work since SP left. While he means/meant so much to the band, there's life after, ya know?

koberry wrote:Dood, but move on. Perry ain't comin' back.

I, for one, am glad they they continue to create new music. Some people want to live in a time warp where the band shuts it down to preserve a legacy that doesn't really exist. I continue to hear great themes like those found in WAT & IYA in the work since SP left. While he means/meant so much to the band, there's life after, ya know?

Seriously? Ya might wanna let Friga in on that one, because his own words told us that the reason for Arnel's hiring was to continue the "legacy" sound, because that's what the people want to hear. They realize this, yet they create something outside out that 'legacy sound' and we wonder why people are not fawning all over it... They're trying to have it both ways, but unfortunately for them as of now it doesn't seem to be working. Whether it's marketing or simply the direction is debatable. And maybe things will turn around for them. IDK.

Regarding Perry, he may or may not be coming back (most likely not), but as long as they sing the DD and refer to that 'legacy sound' he will always be in the equation. Comin' back or not, he will always be the measuring stick for any effort by the band.

donnaplease wrote:

koberry wrote:Dood, but move on. Perry ain't comin' back.

I, for one, am glad they they continue to create new music. Some people want to live in a time warp where the band shuts it down to preserve a legacy that doesn't really exist. I continue to hear great themes like those found in WAT & IYA in the work since SP left. While he means/meant so much to the band, there's life after, ya know?

Seriously? Ya might wanna let Friga in on that one, because his own words told us that the reason for Arnel's hiring was to continue the "legacy" sound, because that's what the people want to hear. They realize this, yet they create something outside out that 'legacy sound' and we wonder why people are not fawning all over it... They're trying to have it both ways, but unfortunately for them as of now it doesn't seem to be working. Whether it's marketing or simply the direction is debatable. And maybe things will turn around for them. IDK.

Regarding Perry, he may or may not be coming back (most likely not), but as long as they sing the DD and refer to that 'legacy sound' he will always be in the equation. Comin' back or not, he will always be the measuring stick for any effort by the band.

My point is that there are 12 songs in the dirty dozen... maybe 25 on any given night that they'd choose to throw into the set list from Infinity thru TBF. That means that 65% - 85% of their body of music is not what the common concert-goer will consider classic. Everyone here seems to measure the new disc against the DD, without considering that these tracks came from 7 different albums. People seem to have their ears closed and minds set, believing that nothing can live up to the DD. I don't think the new stuff has to.

For instance, compare most Frontiers:

Chain Reaction
Edge of the Blade
Troubled Child
Back Talk
Frontiers
Rubicon

I hear material on Eclipse that every bit as strong if not stronger than these tracks from Frontiers (which I do love btw). I also hear songs on Eclipse that are as enjoyable to me as SW, ATF, SHML, Faithfully, though I understand they may not be quite as strong.

Similarly, on Escape:

Keep on Runnin
Still They Ride
Escape
Lay It Down
Dead or Alive
Open Arms
Mother, Father

I hear material on Eclipse that's as strong as these tracks. Surely not DSB, SIL, WCN, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so I don't expect anyone here to agree with me. I just think there are lots of people have a false sense of Journey's legacy, at least according to the comments on the disc and how I hear/see it.

I'd rather have a closed mind, than an open ass......

S2M wrote:I'd rather have a closed mind, than an open ass......

You're a homo and this is not one of your most brilliant posts, not that there ever were any.