A question for Journey

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A question for Journey

Postby Don » Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:57 am

How is it that you failed to inform your fans that Eclipse was available in the U.S. on Amazon and iTunes ?

You guys were asked about iTunes point blank on the radio and reiterated that the album was a Wal-Mart exclusive and might be on iTunes a few months down the road.

The two largest music distributors in America and you fail to mention that they are involved with your product launch?

While I do enjoy Eclipse very much, It definitely won't be on the fans if it's a commercial failure. After all the conspiracy theories back in the day about how Sony sabotaged Arrival's release, who do we blame for screwing up this one?

Unbelievable.

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Postby Saint John » Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:00 pm

As a fan of the band I love the music and the CD is everything I could have expected, but as a consumer I have more than a few gripes. First, the package is embarrassing. It's nothing short of terrible and screams loudly that every measure was taken to make the package is as cheap as possible. Physical CDs are a dying art and giving the consumer something to remember is a key part of continued business. After this particular packaging I can't see anyone getting excited ever again about getting a physical copy of a Journey CD.

Walmart, Anderson and Journey's management all seem to be on different pages. When you have an exclusive deal with Walmart (or not) and they (Anderson) can't even stock it properly under "New Releases," something is very wrong! Moreover, in some instances, it wasn't stocked at all! This debut was a colossal fuck up. The CDs launch was on a HOLIDAY WEEKEND ... the kickoff to the summer. Walmart has foot traffic up the ass. People are buying beer, food and charcoal, in bunches. People have a bit of euphoria running through them, as they anticipate the kickoff to summer and a holiday weekend. This was, in hindsight, the PERFECT weekend to launch your CD. And they fucked it up from A to Z.

After the Revelation debut issues with stocking and availability, one would think that Journey's management would have dotted every I and crossed every T. And perhaps they did, but it sure looks like they didn't. They didn't promote, they didn't advertise, they didn't make sure Anderson and Walmart were crystal clear with the launch, and the numbers showed it. Now, we come to find out that Neal is telling everyone that it will be on iTunes in "a few months" and it's available NOW?!?! That probably cost them a few thousand sales losses in illegal downloads. No one's going to wait a few MONTHS for it to come to iTunes when they can scour the web and download it for free! And they're certainly not going to pay NOW when it's on every torrent site known to man or they simply burned someone else's copy already.

Man, I think if you sat back pre-release and said "Let's try and completely fuck up this release in every way possible" could you come up with as many problems, missed opportunities, incorrect information and overall mixed signals as they did. I sure hope someone's head rolls because this was a disaster. 3 years and a quality product in the making and it absolutely goes south due to nothing more than incompetence. The good news is that the release is still out, but the bad news is that it's gonna be a deep, deep hole to climb out of. Who the fuck manages these guys ... Barnum and Bailey, Cheech and Chong, Starsky and Hutch, or Beavis and Butthead? :?
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Postby jrny84 » Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:42 pm

I agree. I dont think I have ever seen an album released like this without any promotion. Im a huge journey fan and the only way I knew about it was stubbling on their website and seeing a small link. No commericals, no walmart ad, no tv shows...nothing. I gotta say that when Perry was in the band, things like this never happened. I remember Trial By Fire being promoted like crazy with commercials, tv shows...etc.

Journey has gotten worse in two respects: No promotion of their products hardly anymore and mediocre stage designs.
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Postby Gideon » Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:47 pm

jrny84 wrote:mediocre stage designs.


Clarify?

(One pet peeve of mine is Journey's relative lack of interaction with one another on stage; they need to improve that dramatically for this next tour.)
'Nothing was bigger for Journey than 1981’s “Escape” album. “I have to attribute that to Jonathan coming in and joining the writing team,” Steve Perry (Feb 2012).'
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Postby scarab » Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:15 pm

i got it on Napster
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Postby Monker » Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:20 pm

[quote="jrny84"]I agree. I dont think I have ever seen an album released like this without any promotion. Im a huge journey fan and the only way I knew about it was stubbling on their website and seeing a small link. No commericals, no walmart ad, no tv shows...nothing. I gotta say that when Perry was in the band, things like this never happened. I remember Trial By Fire being promoted like crazy with commercials, tv shows...etc.

Journey has gotten worse in two respects: No promotion of their products hardly anymore and mediocre stage designs.[/quote

TBF was a reunion album with Sony, of course it is going to be promoted like crazy..by Sony. What exactly did JOURNEY do to promote TBF? A few radio shows, and that was iit.

What did Sony do to promote Arrival? NOTHING. Journey did it all...the BTM, the 2001 DVD, various interviews and talk shows. Journey put forth an effort with TBF.

What promotion was there for Red 13? NONE!

The only promotion for Generations was the tour.

Revelation fed upon itself. The Arnel story, DSB resurgence, songs on the radio, and the Wal-mart package made it a bargain. So, it sold well.

Eclipse is back to the old ways of not promoting at all. I doubt anybody other then Journey really believed this would work and Wal-mart is going to get stuck with a pile of CD's they can't sell no matter how much it is promoted. After spending years with the "returning to the legacy sound" as their main line...they now want to tell the people who bought Revelation that they have a new sound. There really is no good angle to promote Eclipse. The music should do the talking....but radio won't play it and people want the old sound - because of what was said for the past three years.

So, I just do NOT believe that the lack of promotion killed this...this is just not what anybody wants from Journey....at least not in significant numbes.

People pointing to promotion right now are just looking for a scapegoat...and that is just the easiest one. Especially people like SJ who made many lofty predictions over the past six months. Their predictions had very little chance of coming true.,
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Postby escapefan » Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:24 pm

I only knew about it because of this board and wait I got an email from their website the day of the release.. Poor marketing...
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Postby Don » Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:26 pm

Now it's at 43 on iTunes album chart.
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Postby jrny84 » Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:45 pm

Gideon wrote:
jrny84 wrote:mediocre stage designs.


Clarify?

(One pet peeve of mine is Journey's relative lack of interaction with one another on stage; they need to improve that dramatically for this next tour.)


Average lighting setup and no real distinctive stage design. At least on the ROR tour they had the triangular computerized screens that changed colors and moved back and forth. There's no cool theme or lighting design when different songs come on.
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Postby Monker » Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:46 pm

escapefan wrote:I only knew about it because of this board and wait I got an email from their website the day of the release.. Poor marketing...


LOL...the fact is, marketing (the email) is why you knew about it! Seems you just gave evidence that their strategy worked!

Too funny!
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Postby Gideon » Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:48 pm

Monker wrote:LOL...the fact is, marketing (the email) is why you knew about it! Seems you just gave evidence that their strategy worked!

Too funny!


It worked for those who signed up to get Journey's announcements via email, who aren't likely a significant fraction of Journey's total fanbase.
'Nothing was bigger for Journey than 1981’s “Escape” album. “I have to attribute that to Jonathan coming in and joining the writing team,” Steve Perry (Feb 2012).'
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Postby Monker » Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:49 pm

jrny84 wrote:
Gideon wrote:
jrny84 wrote:mediocre stage designs.


Clarify?

(One pet peeve of mine is Journey's relative lack of interaction with one another on stage; they need to improve that dramatically for this next tour.)


Average lighting setup and no real distinctive stage design. At least on the ROR tour they had the triangular computerized screens that changed colors and moved back and forth. There's no cool theme or lighting design when different songs come on.


Come on! ROR tour? You are really comparing today to 1985-7?

Journey after TBF has NOT had a huge stage display...But what 80's AOR band does today?
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Postby Monker » Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:53 pm

Gideon wrote:
Monker wrote:LOL...the fact is, marketing (the email) is why you knew about it! Seems you just gave evidence that their strategy worked!

Too funny!


It worked for those who signed up to get Journey's announcements via email, who aren't likely a significant fraction of Journey's total fanbase.


Correct...a significant fraction of Journey's fanbase are nostalgic 80's music fans....and that is not who this album is aimed at anyway. This album is aimed at people who either like Neal, or who want an updated sound from Journey....and that is obviously not a lot of people.
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Postby jrny84 » Sat Jun 04, 2011 1:59 pm

Monker wrote:
jrny84 wrote:
Gideon wrote:
jrny84 wrote:mediocre stage designs.


Clarify?

(One pet peeve of mine is Journey's relative lack of interaction with one another on stage; they need to improve that dramatically for this next tour.)


Average lighting setup and no real distinctive stage design. At least on the ROR tour they had the triangular computerized screens that changed colors and moved back and forth. There's no cool theme or lighting design when different songs come on.


Come on! ROR tour? You are really comparing today to 1985-7?

Journey after TBF has NOT had a huge stage display...But what 80's AOR band does today?


Yup sure am. Lots of rock/pop bands have unique stage designs: Def Leppard, Genesis, Van Halen, Rush..etc. Maybe not 80s aor bands necessarily, but come on Journey was the best selling aor band. Dont you think they could afford a decent stage design?
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Postby ebake02 » Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:07 pm

Don wrote:Now it's at 43 on iTunes album chart.


Now it's dropped to #54.
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Postby jrny84 » Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:12 pm

ebake02 wrote:
Don wrote:Now it's at 43 on iTunes album chart.


Now it's dropped to #54.


Only other country its still charting on is UK itunes #85. No love from Canada for Journey again.
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Postby Monker » Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:12 pm

jrny84 wrote:
Monker wrote:
jrny84 wrote:
Gideon wrote:
jrny84 wrote:mediocre stage designs.


Clarify?

(One pet peeve of mine is Journey's relative lack of interaction with one another on stage; they need to improve that dramatically for this next tour.)


Average lighting setup and no real distinctive stage design. At least on the ROR tour they had the triangular computerized screens that changed colors and moved back and forth. There's no cool theme or lighting design when different songs come on.


Come on! ROR tour? You are really comparing today to 1985-7?

Journey after TBF has NOT had a huge stage display...But what 80's AOR band does today?


Yup sure am. Lots of rock/pop bands have unique stage designs: Def Leppard, Genesis, Van Halen, Rush..etc. Maybe not 80s aor bands necessarily, but come on Journey was the best selling aor band. Dont you think they could afford a decent stage design?


I think Journey can afford a lot of things...but I also think they are greedy bastards who won't spend the money unless they know they are going to somehow turn a profit on it.

But, I do agree with you...Journey should have been embarrassed when they opened for DL. They looked like amateurs..
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Postby ebake02 » Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:17 pm

I know album sales shouldn't matter, it's the quality of the music that counts, but it bugs the hell out of me that a brilliant album like is going virtually unnoticed. If this album was getting some attention, there are enough non kool-aid drinking fans of real rock music out there to push Eclipse to at least gold. Don, that was probably the plan, I have a feeling poor first week sales have something to do with Itunes. Looks to me like Azoff wasn't very impressed with the final numbers either and I wouldn't blame him for feeling that way.
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Postby Saint John » Sat Jun 04, 2011 2:23 pm

ebake02 wrote:I know album sales shouldn't matter, it's the quality of the music that counts


In cases of extremely popular and successful bands like Journey, both matter.
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Postby Memorex » Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:20 pm

I looked for it on itunes day 1 and it was not there, so not sure when it appeared.
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Postby RedWingFan » Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:05 pm

Saint John wrote:... they didn't make sure Anderson and Walmart were crystal clear with the launch, and the numbers showed it.

Dude, if Journey's people go in there trying to tell Walmart what's what, here's what would happen.

Journey mgmt: "Hey where are our displays and where's the promotion for the cd?"

Walmart: "Hey...did your check clear?"

Journey mgmt: "Yeah."

Walmart: "Then shut the fuck up. When people hear it on the radio and like it, they'll come in and buy it. They're not going to buy it because of the bitchin' cd cover art. You don't like it? See if Kmart will cut you a check for the next one."
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Postby steveo777 » Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:20 pm

I get a kick out of how people here think a shitty sewer of a few hardcore fans and non fans on a pesky message board can determine the success or failure of this band.
Laughable! It's way bigger than us folks, hundreds of thousands bigger. :wink: :lol: :lol:
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Postby koberry » Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:10 pm

jrny84 wrote:I agree. I dont think I have ever seen an album released like this without any promotion. Im a huge journey fan and the only way I knew about it was stubbling on their website and seeing a small link. No commericals, no walmart ad, no tv shows...nothing. I gotta say that when Herbie Herbert was in the band, things like this never happened. I remember Trial By Fire being promoted like crazy with commercials, tv shows...etc.

Journey has gotten worse in two respects: No promotion of their products hardly anymore and mediocre stage designs.


Fixed it for you :lol:
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Postby Rockindeano » Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:29 pm

Saint John wrote:As a fan of the band I love the music and the CD is everything I could have expected, but as a consumer I have more than a few gripes. First, the package is embarrassing. It's nothing short of terrible and screams loudly that every measure was taken to make the package is as cheap as possible. Physical CDs are a dying art and giving the consumer something to remember is a key part of continued business. After this particular packaging I can't see anyone getting excited ever again about getting a physical copy of a Journey CD.

Walmart, Anderson and Journey's management all seem to be on different pages. When you have an exclusive deal with Walmart (or not) and they (Anderson) can't even stock it properly under "New Releases," something is very wrong! Moreover, in some instances, it wasn't stocked at all! This debut was a colossal fuck up. The CDs launch was on a HOLIDAY WEEKEND ... the kickoff to the summer. Walmart has foot traffic up the ass. People are buying beer, food and charcoal, in bunches. People have a bit of euphoria running through them, as they anticipate the kickoff to summer and a holiday weekend. This was, in hindsight, the PERFECT weekend to launch your CD. And they fucked it up from A to Z.

After the Revelation debut issues with stocking and availability, one would think that Journey's management would have dotted every I and crossed every T. And perhaps they did, but it sure looks like they didn't. They didn't promote, they didn't advertise, they didn't make sure Anderson and Walmart were crystal clear with the launch, and the numbers showed it. Now, we come to find out that Neal is telling everyone that it will be on iTunes in "a few months" and it's available NOW?!?! That probably cost them a few thousand sales losses in illegal downloads. No one's going to wait a few MONTHS for it to come to iTunes when they can scour the web and download it for free! And they're certainly not going to pay NOW when it's on every torrent site known to man or they simply burned someone else's copy already.

Man, I think if you sat back pre-release and said "Let's try and completely fuck up this release in every way possible" could you come up with as many problems, missed opportunities, incorrect information and overall mixed signals as they did. I sure hope someone's head rolls because this was a disaster. 3 years and a quality product in the making and it absolutely goes south due to nothing more than incompetence. The good news is that the release is still out, but the bad news is that it's gonna be a deep, deep hole to climb out of. Who the fuck manages these guys ... Barnum and Bailey, Cheech and Chong, Starsky and Hutch, or Beavis and Butthead? :?


This is a damned good post; well thought out. Nicely done Daniel.

I have a few questions and thoughts brought out by your post.

1) Was Journey allowed to also sell Eclipse on their own website, or when they say it is an all exclusive Walmart deal, what exactly does that mean?

And you know what else? It charted so poorly, and still nobody even knows about it's very existence, how about re-promoting it? Just pretend that last week never happened. It's not too late to spend a hundred thousand to promote this and try to save the release and well, save face too. If they are truly proud of this cd, and I agree it is well done, and it looks like they took the effort to bring about a solid product. It's not too late for Nomota to cut a check to WM or whomever, and get the cardboard cutouts in ALL the Wally World's, posters, whatever. Spend a few dimes, make a lot of quarters. Man, there is a giant void in rock n roll right now (sorry Deb, we don't count Mr Big)...there is NOBODY in RocknRoll putting anything out right now. One exception is that shit Def Lippard crap they are putting out, Mirrorball. I can tell you that is a POS without even listenig to it. What Journey the band did was IMHO, a very nice effort for it's fans. Journey Mgt(i.e. incompetent asshole Jews), basically plunger raped the band and its' effort. I would be pissed as all Hell if I were Schon or any of the band members. Seriously, they actually sit and try- something they didn't do for Generations or Red-13...they tried and came up with a pretty good release this time. I am convinced this cd tanked not because of the music or direction they took...not at all. This tanked because of management and management only. There should be a fist fight in the offices of Irving Azoff with Neal Schon v the Old Man himself.

Tito PM'ed me and rightfully pointed out that the band simply cannot depart the clutched arms and claws of Azoff Inc. They own rights to arenas and tickets etc....I told all of you people 2 years ago when Bruce Springsteen and Jon Landau(Bruce's Mgr), fought Azoff tooth and nail, and were against the merger of Live Nation and Ticketmaster, that it was a big deal. No one said a word and everyone simply shrugged their shoulders. I wish Bruce would have done more, and fought harder, because the result is killing Journey and probably a lot of other bands too, that we haven't heard about. We can blame Bruce for this I guess...although not his responsibility, he was the only guy in music who could have stopped this bullshit from happening. Of course he has excellent Mgt, and isn't affected, but well, like I said, He and only he could have had a chance to stop this horrible merger/monopoly. Too late now though, eh?

So what you think? Is it ridiculous to even think it's too late to "re-promote" this release? Monker, correct as usual(sorry Dan, he knows his stuff), was on top of this 2 months ago, when promotion should have commenced. He was also correct to say that the only people who know about Eclipse are readers of this fine site. I am serious, I know Schon reads here. Neal has to be absorbing some of these thoughts, and he may just talk to the smarter Cain about this, and take some of these ideas, thoughts, complaints, bitches, and everything else to Mgt for a little conference. Something has to give. Either re-promote it, or just begin the process of lopping off Azoff from the organization known as Journey. Or God forbid, throw your arms up and after this tour, just quit. If I were still an avid, passionate fan, I would be so pissed right now. You think Azoff does this, or lack thereof for Christina, the Eagles, or any of his other bands in the stable save for REO? No way. This was a direct lack of respect for an institutional American Pop/rock music icon, Journey. Think back to Azoff's words in the BTM on VH1. He said there was a "huge void out there...people missed the music, and Journey was coming back in a big way to fill that void."(Or something to that effect). I would love to hear his thoughts now.

I am sincerely sorry to you hardcores of Journey, and actually to the Band itself. They deserved better than this.

PS- I would LOVE to know Herbie Herbert's POV on this clusterfuck.

PPS- What's really ironic is Azoff does NOTHING to aid in the sale of a pretty damned good product, yet sits back and rakes in the dough on a tour, built around a structure that Irv himself put in place with the Ticketmaster/Live Nation garbage. He is making millions upon millions, and didn't spend a fucking dime to help his band. Man this stinks to high heaven.
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Postby steveo777 » Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:29 pm

Well, fuck, Dean. Very interesting post. If I weren't at the bottom of a 12 pack plus, I'd look much closer at what you said. There's a lot of good content in there.
I'll revisit this tomorrow / later today.
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Postby george_g » Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:43 pm

Deano is very right. Re-promotion (or continuous promotion) is quite the best thing they could do and it doesn't need so much time these says...
As for the exclusive Wal mart, would they mean that you only buy it there physically i.e. it's only Wal-mart or electronic buy?
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Postby Abitaman » Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:50 pm

I bought the download off Amazon. I searched for it on I tunes the day it came out and never found it... Saved $3.00 too!
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Postby jrny84 » Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:32 am

Eclipse Itunes Singles:

Mexico: Anything is possible- highest position #18, current position #44
Germany: Chain of Love- highest position #32, as of 6/01/11 #48
Resonate- highest position #100
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Wallmart lack of promotion, etc.

Postby infinityplusone » Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:45 am

I went to the Wallmart in Alexandria, VA the day _after_ the official release. Their computer said they were 'in stock'. But there was no display, and no copies of the CD out. The salesgirl and I started opening boxes of pre-stock inventory, no luck. She called another Wallmart 3-4 miles away, but noone answered the phone.

Next day, donwloaded it from Amazon. Later, saw my brother's CD and agree with what others have said, the art/packaging is appalling. They could've gotten that artist dude who used to post here who has all those cool 'alternate album covers', paid him peanuts, and ended up with something 100x more appealing.

The whole experience was sad.

Only bright spot is the music itself. I'm still getting used to it, but love 'City of Hope' and the instrumental, so far. Really, it's an album made for Neal-o-philes.. Arnel finally singing songs that truly reflect his involvement (some decidely non-Perryesque), so that's cool.

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Postby koberry » Sun Jun 05, 2011 12:59 am

steveo777 wrote:Well, fuck, Dean. Very interesting post. If I weren't at the bottom of a 12 pack plus, I'd look much closer at what you said. There's a lot of good content in there.
I'll revisit this tomorrow / later today.


Check back when you're at the bottom of a Saturday morning Bloody Mary :lol: I'm starting the day with a mimosa (sans orange juice)...
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