MR

For all the dissing that TBF has gotten, unlike eclipse, it was a move in a new direction that still sounds like Journey. The tunes are hummable and Perry, while not at his vocal peak, still manages to sing them with a lot of emotion. Their is very much a spiritual element going on in the lyrics of TBF that isn't as "hit you over the head" as that in Eclipse. Beyond, Castles Burning, there are no overly obnoxious guitar shreds. And even in CB, it fits there. Had Perry been able to tour, this album would have given us 3-4 more Journey classics (DD) - and it is too bad Perry walked out on that one. That being said, it blows Eclipse out of the water. I think it proves that Perry's influence and songwriting skills are clearly missing from today's version of Journey.

Don made a great point with his preliminary review that TBF and Eclipse could be sister albums and one can definitely see the continuity there.
I'm putting together a playlist on my iPod of 6 tunes from each album and it's a truly superior hybrid.

Trial By Fire remains my favorite Journey album. The production was slightly superior and the songs were better crafted because of Perry's abilities as an artist that Arnel simply lacks.

It certainly does

Gideon wrote:Don made a great point with his preliminary review that TBF and Eclipse could be sister albums and one can definitely see the continuity there.
I'm putting together a playlist on my iPod of 6 tunes from each album and it's a truly superior hybrid.

Trial By Fire remains my favorite Journey album. The production was slightly superior and the songs were better crafted because of Perry's abilities as an artist that Arnel simply lacks.

Let us know the 12 you pick. Could be interesting.

Memorex wrote:Let us know the 12 you pick. Could be interesting.

Message of Love
One More
Colors of the Spirit
Edge of the Moment
Chain of Love
Resonate

They're definitely going in because, in addition to being great songs with a harder edge, they also are thematically relevant to one another. The other 6 are a little more troublesome.

Toph wrote:For all the dissing that TBF has gotten, unlike eclipse, it was a move in a new direction that still sounds like Journey. The tunes are hummable and Perry, while not at his vocal peak, still manages to sing them with a lot of emotion. Their is very much a spiritual element going on in the lyrics of TBF that isn't as "hit you over the head" as that in Eclipse. Beyond, Castles Burning, there are no overly obnoxious guitar shreds. And even in CB, it fits there. Had Perry been able to tour, this album would have given us 3-4 more Journey classics (DD) - and it is too bad Perry walked out on that one. That being said, it blows Eclipse out of the water. I think it proves that Perry's influence and songwriting skills are clearly missing from today's version of Journey.

Totally Agree.

TBF is Steve Smith's, Neal's and Friga's album.

Toph wrote:For all the dissing that TBF has gotten, unlike eclipse, it was a move in a new direction that still sounds like Journey. The tunes are hummable and Perry, while not at his vocal peak, still manages to sing them with a lot of emotion. Their is very much a spiritual element going on in the lyrics of TBF that isn't as "hit you over the head" as that in Eclipse. Beyond, Castles Burning, there are no overly obnoxious guitar shreds. And even in CB, it fits there. Had Perry been able to tour, this album would have given us 3-4 more Journey classics (DD) - and it is too bad Perry walked out on that one. That being said, it blows Eclipse out of the water. I think it proves that Perry's influence and songwriting skills are clearly missing from today's version of Journey.

One problem: It's boring. Eclipse tries to tackle similar themes of spirituality, while still managing to rock. TBF would be a masterpiece if it was more balanced. If anything TBF needed way more "obnoxious guitar shreds." Of the limited rockers on offer, (MOL, OM, CB, CTTL, ICSIIYE), I agree they are better written than most Cain/Schon stuff in the post-Perry era. But Perry is retired, so whaddya gonna do?

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

Toph wrote:For all the dissing that TBF has gotten, unlike eclipse, it was a move in a new direction that still sounds like Journey. The tunes are hummable and Perry, while not at his vocal peak, still manages to sing them with a lot of emotion. Their is very much a spiritual element going on in the lyrics of TBF that isn't as "hit you over the head" as that in Eclipse. Beyond, Castles Burning, there are no overly obnoxious guitar shreds. And even in CB, it fits there. Had Perry been able to tour, this album would have given us 3-4 more Journey classics (DD) - and it is too bad Perry walked out on that one. That being said, it blows Eclipse out of the water. I think it proves that Perry's influence and songwriting skills are clearly missing from today's version of Journey.

One problem: It's boring. Eclipse tries to tackle similar themes of spirituality, while still managing to rock. TBF would be a masterpiece if it was more balanced. If anything TBF needed way more "obnoxious guitar shreds." Of the limited rockers on offer, (MOL, OM, CB, CTTL, ICSIIYE), I agree they are better written than most Cain/Schon stuff in the post-Perry era. But Perry is retired, so whaddya gonna do?

I don't find it boring at all. I guess it all depends on the person. I think it's their best album.

Memorex wrote:I don't find it boring at all. I guess it all depends on the person. I think it's their best album.

Compare the ballad-to-rock ratio of TBF to Escape or Frontiers...overall, the disc is a downer.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

Toph wrote:For all the dissing that TBF has gotten, unlike eclipse, it was a move in a new direction that still sounds like Journey. The tunes are hummable and Perry, while not at his vocal peak, still manages to sing them with a lot of emotion. Their is very much a spiritual element going on in the lyrics of TBF that isn't as "hit you over the head" as that in Eclipse. Beyond, Castles Burning, there are no overly obnoxious guitar shreds. And even in CB, it fits there. Had Perry been able to tour, this album would have given us 3-4 more Journey classics (DD) - and it is too bad Perry walked out on that one. That being said, it blows Eclipse out of the water. I think it proves that Perry's influence and songwriting skills are clearly missing from today's version of Journey.

One problem: It's boring. Eclipse tries to tackle similar themes of spirituality, while still managing to rock. TBF would be a masterpiece if it was more balanced. If anything TBF needed way more "obnoxious guitar shreds." Of the limited rockers on offer, (MOL, OM, CB, CTTL, ICSIIYE), I agree they are better written than most Cain/Schon stuff in the post-Perry era. But Perry is retired, so whaddya gonna do?

It can be a bit boring, sure - but it could've also been a lot better if they've just cut some of the shit on it. They should've reduced it down to 8-9 songs

Message of Love
One More
When You Love a Woman
If He Should Break Your Heart
Forever in Blue
Colors of the Spirit
Easy to Fall
Can't Tame the Lion
Trial by Fire

Maybe change out Colors of the Spirit with something a bit less navajo.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:Of the limited rockers on offer, (MOL, OM, CB, CTTL, ICSIIYE), I agree they are better written than most Cain/Schon stuff in the post-Perry era. But Perry is retired, so whaddya gonna do?

While I agree to an extent, I'd say that neither 'Castles Burning' or 'Can't Tame the Lion' hold their own against Eclipse's best.

Gideon wrote:

The_Noble_Cause wrote:Of the limited rockers on offer, (MOL, OM, CB, CTTL, ICSIIYE), I agree they are better written than most Cain/Schon stuff in the post-Perry era. But Perry is retired, so whaddya gonna do?

While I agree to an extent, I'd say that neither 'Castles Burning' or 'Can't Tame the Lion' hold their own against Eclipse's best.

I like both tunes, but ur right. There's some stronger stuff on Eclipse.

parfait wrote:

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

Toph wrote:For all the dissing that TBF has gotten, unlike eclipse, it was a move in a new direction that still sounds like Journey. The tunes are hummable and Perry, while not at his vocal peak, still manages to sing them with a lot of emotion. Their is very much a spiritual element going on in the lyrics of TBF that isn't as "hit you over the head" as that in Eclipse. Beyond, Castles Burning, there are no overly obnoxious guitar shreds. And even in CB, it fits there. Had Perry been able to tour, this album would have given us 3-4 more Journey classics (DD) - and it is too bad Perry walked out on that one. That being said, it blows Eclipse out of the water. I think it proves that Perry's influence and songwriting skills are clearly missing from today's version of Journey.

One problem: It's boring. Eclipse tries to tackle similar themes of spirituality, while still managing to rock. TBF would be a masterpiece if it was more balanced. If anything TBF needed way more "obnoxious guitar shreds." Of the limited rockers on offer, (MOL, OM, CB, CTTL, ICSIIYE), I agree they are better written than most Cain/Schon stuff in the post-Perry era. But Perry is retired, so whaddya gonna do?

It can be a bit boring, sure - but it could've also been a lot better if they've just cut some of the shit on it. They should've reduced it down to 8-9 songs

Message of Love
One More
When You Love a Woman
If He Should Break Your Heart
Forever in Blue
Colors of the Spirit
Easy to Fall
Can't Tame the Lion
Trial by Fire

Maybe change out Colors of the Spirit with something a bit less navajo.

'Colors of the Spirit' is great. Nice eclectic song. 'Forever In Blue', 'Castles Burning', and 'Can't Tame the Lion' are all meh.

I see TBF and Eclipse as different albums and can't really say TBF blows Eclipse away. Sonically Eclipse is a better album.

I have 3 songs I like on TBF.

MOL
OM
WYLAW

That's it.

On Eclipse I like:
EOM
COL
Resonate
SAM
AIP
Someone
Tantra (most of it)

For me that makes Eclipse twice as good.

parfait wrote:

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

Toph wrote:For all the dissing that TBF has gotten, unlike eclipse, it was a move in a new direction that still sounds like Journey. The tunes are hummable and Perry, while not at his vocal peak, still manages to sing them with a lot of emotion. Their is very much a spiritual element going on in the lyrics of TBF that isn't as "hit you over the head" as that in Eclipse. Beyond, Castles Burning, there are no overly obnoxious guitar shreds. And even in CB, it fits there. Had Perry been able to tour, this album would have given us 3-4 more Journey classics (DD) - and it is too bad Perry walked out on that one. That being said, it blows Eclipse out of the water. I think it proves that Perry's influence and songwriting skills are clearly missing from today's version of Journey.

One problem: It's boring. Eclipse tries to tackle similar themes of spirituality, while still managing to rock. TBF would be a masterpiece if it was more balanced. If anything TBF needed way more "obnoxious guitar shreds." Of the limited rockers on offer, (MOL, OM, CB, CTTL, ICSIIYE), I agree they are better written than most Cain/Schon stuff in the post-Perry era. But Perry is retired, so whaddya gonna do?

It can be a bit boring, sure - but it could've also been a lot better if they've just cut some of the shit on it. They should've reduced it down to 8-9 songs

Message of Love
One More
When You Love a Woman
If He Should Break Your Heart
Forever in Blue
Colors of the Spirit
Easy to Fall
Can't Tame the Lion
Trial by Fire

Maybe change out Colors of the Spirit with something a bit less navajo.

Oh yeah. Arrival also could've been the best Journey album ever if it was tighter. Imagine an album of nuthin but-

Higher Place
All the Way
Signs of Life
World Gone Wild
I Got A Reason
Walking Away from the Edge (written for Arrival)
Nothin' Comes Close
Never Too Late (written for Arrival)
Lifetime of Dreams
I Can Breathe (written for arrival)
To Be Alive Again
Bonus Track - Remember Me

I think without the success of WYLAW, Trial By Fire would have gone by the wayside and Journey may very well have ended then and there.
Reputation, along with the prior week's re-release of a remastered back catalog helped propel the album to #3 on its debut.
With When You Love A Woman, the album stayed above the surface at least through the Grammys that year.
Without that one song, I think it suffers the same fate we are seeing with Eclipse. Initial sales surge because of the brand name but then, a very steep decline at retail and subsequently the charts.

The quality of Journey's albums was undermined slightly when they made albums over 11 tracks long.

TBF:

Message of Love
One More
When You Love A Woman
If He Should Break Your Heart
Forever In Blue
Still She Cries
Colors of the Spirit
Easy to Fall
Can't Tame the Lion
I Can See It In Your Eyes
Trial By Fire

Arrival:

Higher Place
All the Way
Signs of Life
Loved By You
Livin' To Do
World Gone Wild
I Got A Reason
Live And Breathe
Nothin' Comes Close
To Be Alive Again
Kiss Me Softly
We Will Meet Again

Generations:

Faith in the Heartland
State of Grace
The Place In Your Heart
A Better Life
Walking Away From the Edge
Every Generation
Out Of Harm's Way
The Time
I Can Breathe
Beyond the Clouds
Never Too Late

Revelation:

Never Walk Away
Change For the Better
Wildest Dream
Where Did I Lose Your Love
Let It Take You Back
After All These Years
Turn Down the World Tonight
What I Needed
What It Takes To Win
Like A Sunshower

TBF was the beneficiary of some great promo.


One week prior to the release of "Trial By Fire," Columbia will issue remastered versions of Journey's eight top-selling albums and Perry's double-platinum 1984 solo effort, "Street Talk."

"The whole point is to highlight the catalog and give them a week to breathe before the coming Journey album," says VP of marketing (U.S.) Tom Corson. "We built a stand-up floor piece for retail, with artwork from the new album and with space for every Journey record and the (1993) boxed set."

There are also plans for a radio special the day of release, as well as launch parties the night before at all 26 Hard Rock Cafes nationwide.

Ahh, back when executives cared.

Don wrote:TBF was the beneficiary of some great promo.


One week prior to the release of "Trial By Fire," Columbia will issue remastered versions of Journey's eight top-selling albums and Perry's double-platinum 1984 solo effort, "Street Talk."

"The whole point is to highlight the catalog and give them a week to breathe before the coming Journey album," says VP of marketing (U.S.) Tom Corson. "We built a stand-up floor piece for retail, with artwork from the new album and with space for every Journey record and the (1993) boxed set."

There are also plans for a radio special the day of release, as well as launch parties the night before at all 26 Hard Rock Cafes nationwide.

Trial by fire had actual commercials on tv as well just before its release date , it was the only way i knew that it existed.

Gideon wrote:

The_Noble_Cause wrote:Of the limited rockers on offer, (MOL, OM, CB, CTTL, ICSIIYE), I agree they are better written than most Cain/Schon stuff in the post-Perry era. But Perry is retired, so whaddya gonna do?

While I agree to an extent, I'd say that neither 'Castles Burning' or 'Can't Tame the Lion' hold their own against Eclipse's best.

I'll agree on Castles Burning (song kinda bugs me). But Can't Tame the Lion is one of my faves. I'd take that over anything on Eclipse.

TBF even with its below par songs much better than Eclipse, Dont go down on me baby, The magic moments songs ACK!, and the pan the magic flute song, oh yeah that GOD awful (bonus) song.
Get rid of those and and add ICSIIYE (song rocks) and TBF is a masterpiece.

Still, AIP, Ritual, the very journey sounding Love someone, and prob the best song sing Sep Ways, Resonate makes Eclipse
I just dont get much of the rest...Especially COH.

TBF is a napper....

Toph wrote:Beyond, Castles Burning, there are no overly obnoxious guitar shreds.

OK.... we get it, you can't appreciate a very talented rock guitarist and Neal Schon's playing is irritating to your ears. Let me guess, you are for the most part, a Perry only fan, and will only be satisfied if Journey pumps out an album full of sappy ballads, am I correct?

I have always said both TBF and Arrival suffered from being too lengthy. They should have made it normal album size of 10-11 songs, instead of giving fans more with 14-15. As much as I love TBF and SP, Don't be Down on Me...It's just the rain...When I think of you...sound too much like SP solo songs and could have been excluded. Also, Colors of the Spirit sounds weird to me, so take that out. This leaves a 10-song album + the bonus (Baby...which a lot of people hate, though I think it's a fun, change-of-pace tune). Yes, then it's a Journey masterpiece!

Now, Arrival, I have listened to it over the years....just too long, too many ballads...most seeming to have "love" in the titles. After the first 6 tracks (all good, btw), my mind starts to wander and I have never fully "digested" all the songs in the album (can't recite the titles like I could with TBF).

The_Noble_Cause wrote:One problem: It's boring.

The magic word....boring. TBF has some good songs, but by the end of the cd, if I make it there, I'm ready to sleep or chill out. Cut about 3 or four songs from it, or listen to in parts I like it better. But it is boring, good call on the WORD

My favourites TBF has

Still She Cries
Message of Love
IHSBYH
WYLAW
Colour of the Spirit
TBF
Forever in Blue
Easy to Fall
When I Think Of You

What a great selection of songs. Just together as an album it's too mellow but I'm ok with that now, it's a bit of a masterpiece

TBF sounds better to me. It's got a nice wall of sound - cleaner bluesy guitar, haunting voice-like keys, stong bottom hitting bass, different drum sounds for different songs, and oh yeah, that Perry guy singing.

I will say that Eclipse is starting to grow on me a bit, but as much as I love a rocking Schon guitar, it seems like there are constant layers of fog rolling through a tunnel. And that's what I meant when I said in another post about being overprocessed. There's nothing loose, raw, or crunchy. The guitars are kinda contrived...as if Schon worked too hard to outdo himself, felt he had something to prove.

Now then, if you could take the width & breathe of TBF and decorate it with a few Eclipse guitar parts, then you might really have something. Or, go the other way. Give Eclipse to Perry to cleanup, add some heart & soul, and actually emote the lyrics, then we'd definitely have something.


later~

Arkansas wrote:...and actually emote the lyrics, then we'd definitely have something.

later~

I think Arnel internalizes the lyrics and emotes just fine. Would be nice if he has a little rough edge and late-Perry rasp going on, but he sounds more like young Perry. Awesome performance either way. Can't imagine Perry, Chalfant, or anyone else hitting alot of these soaring highs.