N. Schon all guitars

[pf1965]

All guitars? And "backing vocals" my ass! I thought J.C. got to play some guitar on Eclipse? Boy Fro wanted all the spotlight on himself with this one huh? Still love Eclipse but just noticed this in the liner notes.

[conversationpc]

All guitars? And "backing vocals" my ass! I thought J.C. got to play some guitar on Eclipse? Boy Fro wanted all the spotlight on himself with this one huh? Still love Eclipse but just noticed this in the liner notes.

Whoop-de-doo...What difference does it make if it says "guitars" or "all guitars"? Means the same thing if no one else has "guitars" listed next to them.

[steveo777]

All guitars? And "backing vocals" my ass! I thought J.C. got to play some guitar on Eclipse? Boy Fro wanted all the spotlight on himself with this one huh? Still love Eclipse but just noticed this in the liner notes.

I think that comes across without clarity. All guitars is all the various guitars Neal uses. John did play rhythm guitar on much of it,
as has been stated elsewhere.

[pf1965]

All guitars? And "backing vocals" my ass! I thought J.C. got to play some guitar on Eclipse? Boy Fro wanted all the spotlight on himself with this one huh? Still love Eclipse but just noticed this in the liner notes.

Whoop-de-doo...What difference does it make if it says "guitars" or "all guitars"? Means the same thing if no one else has "guitars" listed next to them.

Geez! "Chill" or is it "chill out"?

[Saint John]

My guess is that Neal played lead, rhythm and bass on this album.

[steveo777]

My guess is that Neal played lead, rhythm and bass on this album.

And if he did, who really gives a flying fuck......do you?

I don't give a shit if bozo the clown played bass, as long as the guitars are on the album, which they
are and they sound great.

[San Diego Gary]

My guess is that Neal played lead, rhythm and bass on this album.

That's kinda what I was thinking. And if you think about it, when you have Neal around, why the HELL would you have anyone else doing it?

[Gideon]

My guess is that Neal played lead, rhythm and bass on this album.

That's kinda what I was thinking. And if you think about it, when you have Neal around, why the HELL would you have anyone else doing it?

Because... there's other people in the band besides Neal?

[jrnyjetster]

My guess is that Neal played lead, rhythm and bass on this album.

It gives credit to Ross on bass

[strangegrey]

All guitars? And "backing vocals" my ass! I thought J.C. got to play some guitar on Eclipse? Boy Fro wanted all the spotlight on himself with this one huh? Still love Eclipse but just noticed this in the liner notes.

These sorta things (album jacket credits) may not be as scrutinized by the band as much as you think. For all we know, some poor schmuck working as an intern slapped the album art file together and just assumed Fro did all of the guitar work and that Friga did none. Moreover, the various proof reading cycles it went through may have not included anyone else in the know.

Also, it could have been by design...for reasons we can only speculate (which I'm sure will be continued to do in this thread) ....


Personally, I scratch my head at anyone taking credit for the guitar work on this record. I've not heard worse playing from Schlong and I wouldn't want to advertised it...

[RocknRoll]

All guitars? And "backing vocals" my ass! I thought J.C. got to play some guitar on Eclipse? Boy Fro wanted all the spotlight on himself with this one huh? Still love Eclipse but just noticed this in the liner notes.

These sorta things (album jacket credits) may not be as scrutinized by the band as much as you think. For all we know, some poor schmuck working as an intern slapped the album art file together and just assumed Fro did all of the guitar work and that Friga did none. Moreover, the various proof reading cycles it went through may have not included anyone else in the know.

Also, it could have been by design...for reasons we can only speculate (which I'm sure will be continued to do in this thread) ....


Personally, I scratch my head at anyone taking credit for the guitar work on this record. I've not heard worse playing from Schlong and I wouldn't want to advertised it...

I'm scratching my head here, since these guitars were done in the studio and probably nitpicked to death. I'd say that's how Schon wanted them to sound. I read one comment on Schon making mistakes, there are no mistakes in the studio. That's what he wanted the sound to be!! Now whether you like it is a different story, I'm not a musician so it's OK with me.

[Arkansas]

Are these performance credits or writing credits?


later~

[Tito]

I don't doubt Neal played all the guitars on the album. But it shows how great a guitarist Jon Cain is, as he can duplicate some of Neal's parts no problem live.

[strangegrey]

I'm scratching my head here, since these guitars were done in the studio and probably nitpicked to death. I'd say that's how Schon wanted them to sound. I read one comment on Schon making mistakes, there are no mistakes in the studio. That's what he wanted the sound to be!! Now whether you like it is a different story, I'm not a musician so it's OK with me.

That's the point I'm trying to make....but maybe I didn't explain myself.

I think Neal's playing on this record is fucking awful. There's parts where he sounds out of time. There are parts where he's pick attack is sloppy....it's like the guy is suffering from arthritis.

Also, one of Fro's calling card was very structured solos, which have a beginning, middle and ending. His solos were works of art. Songs within songs....Not so much on this record, where it's just senseless jerking off on the guitar, without any structure. Very little of his solo work on eclipse complements the songs. Granted, the songs are fucking awful to begin with....but if they didn't let Neal ruin the songs with these extended solo sections, we might have had a better overall record and better solos, to boot.

Giving someone free reign in the studio to be creative, sometimes is a double edged sword. In this case, Fro wasn't held in check on this record. They found some no name guy (to replace Shirley) that didn't tell Fro to dial it back.....and the result is a fucking mess. Poor playing, all over the place, no structure to the songs and solo sections that take away from the quality of the record.


This is the first record Fro has released, where I actually cringe at his crappy playing, instead of listen, jaw on the floor, awe-struck by what he's playing.

[RocknRoll]

I'm scratching my head here, since these guitars were done in the studio and probably nitpicked to death. I'd say that's how Schon wanted them to sound. I read one comment on Schon making mistakes, there are no mistakes in the studio. That's what he wanted the sound to be!! Now whether you like it is a different story, I'm not a musician so it's OK with me.

That's the point I'm trying to make....but maybe I didn't explain myself.

I think Neal's playing on this record is fucking awful. There's parts where he sounds out of time. There are parts where he's pick attack is sloppy....it's like the guy is suffering from arthritis.

Also, one of Fro's calling card was very structured solos, which have a beginning, middle and ending. His solos were works of art. Songs within songs....Not so much on this record, where it's just senseless jerking off on the guitar, without any structure. Very little of his solo work on eclipse complements the songs. Granted, the songs are fucking awful to begin with....but if they didn't let Neal ruin the songs with these extended solo sections, we might have had a better overall record and better solos, to boot.

Giving someone free reign in the studio to be creative, sometimes is a double edged sword. In this case, Fro wasn't held in check on this record. They found some no name guy (to replace Shirley) that didn't tell Fro to dial it back.....and the result is a fucking mess. Poor playing, all over the place, no structure to the songs and solo sections that take away from the quality of the record.


This is the first record Fro has released, where I actually cringe at his crappy playing, instead of listen, jaw on the floor, awe-struck by what he's playing.

You're one of the guys on this forum, I've always respected a lot. but you're saying Neal was in the studio and Neal deliberately put out piss poor music?

[Ehwmatt]

I'm scratching my head here, since these guitars were done in the studio and probably nitpicked to death. I'd say that's how Schon wanted them to sound. I read one comment on Schon making mistakes, there are no mistakes in the studio. That's what he wanted the sound to be!! Now whether you like it is a different story, I'm not a musician so it's OK with me.

That's the point I'm trying to make....but maybe I didn't explain myself.

I think Neal's playing on this record is fucking awful. There's parts where he sounds out of time. There are parts where he's pick attack is sloppy....it's like the guy is suffering from arthritis.

Also, one of Fro's calling card was very structured solos, which have a beginning, middle and ending. His solos were works of art. Songs within songs....Not so much on this record, where it's just senseless jerking off on the guitar, without any structure. Very little of his solo work on eclipse complements the songs. Granted, the songs are fucking awful to begin with....but if they didn't let Neal ruin the songs with these extended solo sections, we might have had a better overall record and better solos, to boot.

Giving someone free reign in the studio to be creative, sometimes is a double edged sword. In this case, Fro wasn't held in check on this record. They found some no name guy (to replace Shirley) that didn't tell Fro to dial it back.....and the result is a fucking mess. Poor playing, all over the place, no structure to the songs and solo sections that take away from the quality of the record.


This is the first record Fro has released, where I actually cringe at his crappy playing, instead of listen, jaw on the floor, awe-struck by what he's playing.

I don't totally agree with your opinion about his playing on the record, but if that's the way you feel, doesn't it kinda remind you of someone who has a big vocabulary who just can't write worth a shit? All they're worried about is throwing in big, obscure synonyms in every place that a simple word would do.

[strangegrey]

I'm scratching my head here, since these guitars were done in the studio and probably nitpicked to death. I'd say that's how Schon wanted them to sound. I read one comment on Schon making mistakes, there are no mistakes in the studio. That's what he wanted the sound to be!! Now whether you like it is a different story, I'm not a musician so it's OK with me.

That's the point I'm trying to make....but maybe I didn't explain myself.

I think Neal's playing on this record is fucking awful. There's parts where he sounds out of time. There are parts where he's pick attack is sloppy....it's like the guy is suffering from arthritis.

Also, one of Fro's calling card was very structured solos, which have a beginning, middle and ending. His solos were works of art. Songs within songs....Not so much on this record, where it's just senseless jerking off on the guitar, without any structure. Very little of his solo work on eclipse complements the songs. Granted, the songs are fucking awful to begin with....but if they didn't let Neal ruin the songs with these extended solo sections, we might have had a better overall record and better solos, to boot.

Giving someone free reign in the studio to be creative, sometimes is a double edged sword. In this case, Fro wasn't held in check on this record. They found some no name guy (to replace Shirley) that didn't tell Fro to dial it back.....and the result is a fucking mess. Poor playing, all over the place, no structure to the songs and solo sections that take away from the quality of the record.


This is the first record Fro has released, where I actually cringe at his crappy playing, instead of listen, jaw on the floor, awe-struck by what he's playing.

You're one of the guys on this forum, I've always respected a lot. but you're saying Neal was in the studio and Neal deliberately put out piss poor music?

I didn't say that. I don't know how you're inferring that from what i'm writing. He obviously thinks its good....judging by the piss poor record sales of eclipse, most people disagree with him.

I really do believe that some musicians out there can fuck up the creative process if left to their own devices. Especially ones that have a monster ego and don't listen to other people....and Fro has viewed Journey since the Perry days, as something that he could've made better if "Perry, Cain, another singer or a damn producer didn't get in his fucking way."

In fact, I firmly believe that was the reason he wanted Arnel over say, a Jeremy Hunsicker.....(Jeremy who is just as much the singer Arnel is) is a creative guy, who as we all know, isn't afraid to speak his mind. Take one look at Arnel in my avatar, and his body language shows you all you need to know with how he defers to Neal. Neal wants full control....a true Napoleonic character he is.

So in this context, Neal thinks its great. In a true Michael Eisner/Jeff Skilling kind of way, he eliminated anyone who would have creative dissent (i.e. singers, producers, etc) ....or neutralized them (i.e. Friga) and forced this album into a wank-fest....the problem being, his wanking isn't what it used to be...and appears he's refused to allow Friga to structure these songs into more palatable entities.

[Rick]

I'm scratching my head here, since these guitars were done in the studio and probably nitpicked to death. I'd say that's how Schon wanted them to sound. I read one comment on Schon making mistakes, there are no mistakes in the studio. That's what he wanted the sound to be!! Now whether you like it is a different story, I'm not a musician so it's OK with me.

That's the point I'm trying to make....but maybe I didn't explain myself.

I think Neal's playing on this record is fucking awful. There's parts where he sounds out of time. There are parts where he's pick attack is sloppy....it's like the guy is suffering from arthritis.

Also, one of Fro's calling card was very structured solos, which have a beginning, middle and ending. His solos were works of art. Songs within songs....Not so much on this record, where it's just senseless jerking off on the guitar, without any structure. Very little of his solo work on eclipse complements the songs. Granted, the songs are fucking awful to begin with....but if they didn't let Neal ruin the songs with these extended solo sections, we might have had a better overall record and better solos, to boot.

Giving someone free reign in the studio to be creative, sometimes is a double edged sword. In this case, Fro wasn't held in check on this record. They found some no name guy (to replace Shirley) that didn't tell Fro to dial it back.....and the result is a fucking mess. Poor playing, all over the place, no structure to the songs and solo sections that take away from the quality of the record.


This is the first record Fro has released, where I actually cringe at his crappy playing, instead of listen, jaw on the floor, awe-struck by what he's playing.

You're one of the guys on this forum, I've always respected a lot. but you're saying Neal was in the studio and Neal deliberately put out piss poor music?

I didn't say that. I don't know how you're inferring that from what i'm writing. He obviously thinks its good....judging by the piss poor record sales of eclipse, most people disagree with him.

I really do believe that some musicians out there can fuck up the creative process if left to their own devices. Especially ones that have a monster ego and don't listen to other people....and Fro has viewed Journey since the Perry days, as something that he could've made better if "Perry, Cain, another singer or a damn producer didn't get in his fucking way."

In fact, I firmly believe that was the reason he wanted Arnel over say, a Jeremy Hunsicker.....(Jeremy who is just as much the singer Arnel is) is a creative guy, who as we all know, isn't afraid to speak his mind. Take one look at Arnel in my avatar, and his body language shows you all you need to know with how he defers to Neal. Neal wants full control....a true Napoleonic character he is.

So in this context, Neal thinks its great. In a true Michael Eisner/Jeff Skilling kind of way, he eliminated anyone who would have creative dissent (i.e. singers, producers, etc) ....or neutralized them (i.e. Friga) and forced this album into a wank-fest....the problem being, his wanking isn't what it used to be...and appears he's refused to allow Friga to structure these songs into more palatable entities.

I'm not a guitarist, although it's my favorite instrument in rock, so I defer that to you, respectfully, but I don't find his playing on this record bad at all. Actually, I love it. With that said, your post makes tons of sense. He pretty much told Shirley to keep his hands off of his songs, in so many words. Now, while Kevin Shirley has produced some outstanding records, he's also produced some absolute duds, as well. I'm sure he would agree with that, being the straight forward kind of guy he is. It's no secret that Schon took all control of this album, and in my estimation, moved away from Shirley because he was trying to make it something he thought would be successful, while Schon felt like he was changing what he wanted his record to be.

Maybe in the end, the more educated people of guitar and music, like yourself, might find this record reprehensible, while people like my self, casual fans of same said, don't see the faults you see in it.

I did get a copy of the Night Ranger CD, and you're 100% on the money with this one. Just a great record.

[strangegrey]

My big problem with Shirley, is that every record where he is involved with mixing, is VERY muddy.....and lacks stereo separation.

However, with a meathead egomaniac like Fro, there's no mistaking the fact that a producer...any producer....is a good thing, compared to no producer at all.

Fro drummed Shirley out of this record, in all likelihood, because Shirley tried to get Neal to dial back....he probably said "Neal, you can't shred like you used to. Lets make these songs palatable"......Fro said 'fuck you, you're fired....waaaaaaa.....where's my pacifier!'

and then proceeded to record a bunch of self-indulgent crap all over these songs.....He then locked friga's chastity belt, forcing friga to get distracted/frustrated over the fact that he couldn't pat his vagina with a warm furry mitten.....and when friga was trying to break the lock on the belt, Fro yanked back the faders on the keyboard tracks.

Instant mess.....overindulgent guitar crap, with no structure....with a second helping of crap, by making the guitars 2x as loud as everything else on the record.

[The_Noble_Cause]

My guess is that Neal played lead, rhythm and bass on this album.

That was my hunch.

[strangegrey]

My guess is that Neal played lead, rhythm and bass on this album.

That was my hunch.

Wow....
If that indeed is the case, then Fro has sunken to an all time low, equalled only by Eddie Van Halen...I often wondered outloud why you didn't see evh and Schon together in pictures....now I know why....there isn't a camera lense in the world wide enough to capture Fro, evh and both their egos all at once....

TNC, just curious...how do you know Fro recorded the bass tracks too?

[The_Noble_Cause]

Wow....
If that indeed is the case, then Fro has sunken to an all time low, equalled only by Eddie Van Halen...I often wondered outloud why you didn't see evh and Schon together in pictures....now I know why....there isn't a camera lense in the world wide enough to capture Fro, evh and both their egos all at once....

TNC, just curious...how do you know Fro recorded the bass tracks too?

SJ has previously said that Neal lays down the bass tracks on Journey demos and whatnot. Wouldn't surprise me that Neal does it in the studio too. His mentality is that of a spoiled guitar child prodigy whose genius has never been properly recognized - if it has strings, he's playing it. At a minimum, I wouldn't be surprised if he writes the bass lines for Ross. The writing unit is Jon and Neal. Is Ross there with them adding his own suggestions. Who knows? This just sounds very plausible to me.

[Centaure]

My guess is that Neal played lead, rhythm and bass on this album.

It gives credit to Ross on bass

Yeah but it also gave credits to Ross for backing vocals on Arrival and Kevin Shirley said that he didn't do any.

[slucero]

I'm scratching my head here, since these guitars were done in the studio and probably nitpicked to death. I'd say that's how Schon wanted them to sound. I read one comment on Schon making mistakes, there are no mistakes in the studio. That's what he wanted the sound to be!! Now whether you like it is a different story, I'm not a musician so it's OK with me.

That's the point I'm trying to make....but maybe I didn't explain myself.

I think Neal's playing on this record is fucking awful. There's parts where he sounds out of time. There are parts where he's pick attack is sloppy....it's like the guy is suffering from arthritis.

Also, one of Fro's calling card was very structured solos, which have a beginning, middle and ending. His solos were works of art. Songs within songs....Not so much on this record, where it's just senseless jerking off on the guitar, without any structure. Very little of his solo work on eclipse complements the songs. Granted, the songs are fucking awful to begin with....but if they didn't let Neal ruin the songs with these extended solo sections, we might have had a better overall record and better solos, to boot.

Giving someone free reign in the studio to be creative, sometimes is a double edged sword. In this case, Fro wasn't held in check on this record. They found some no name guy (to replace Shirley) that didn't tell Fro to dial it back.....and the result is a fucking mess. Poor playing, all over the place, no structure to the songs and solo sections that take away from the quality of the record.


This is the first record Fro has released, where I actually cringe at his crappy playing, instead of listen, jaw on the floor, awe-struck by what he's playing.

You're one of the guys on this forum, I've always respected a lot. but you're saying Neal was in the studio and Neal deliberately put out piss poor music?

Neal's on record saying he likes to wing his solos.... that he doesn't like to comp them...

"comp"... is studio speak for composite - like writing 10 of the same sentences, each with mistakes in different spots... and cut~n~pasting the best parts together...

What this means in Neals case... would be Neal replaying (and recording) the solo over and over then "comping" the best parts of all the takes together into the final solo... as I said Neal prefers to wing it..

.,,, and this is how we get what we get on Eclipse...

[parfait]

My big problem with Shirley, is that every record where he is involved with mixing, is VERY muddy.....and lacks stereo separation.

However, with a meathead egomaniac like Fro, there's no mistaking the fact that a producer...any producer....is a good thing, compared to no producer at all.

Fro drummed Shirley out of this record, in all likelihood, because Shirley tried to get Neal to dial back....he probably said "Neal, you can't shred like you used to. Lets make these songs palatable"......Fro said 'fuck you, you're fired....waaaaaaa.....where's my pacifier!'

and then proceeded to record a bunch of self-indulgent crap all over these songs.....He then locked friga's chastity belt, forcing friga to get distracted/frustrated over the fact that he couldn't pat his vagina with a warm furry mitten.....and when friga was trying to break the lock on the belt, Fro yanked back the faders on the keyboard tracks.

Instant mess.....overindulgent guitar crap, with no structure....with a second helping of crap, by making the guitars 2x as loud as everything else on the record.

This pretty much nails it. The guitar parts just comes off as indulgent and tasteless. We all know Neal can play, but would it hurt him to lay off the crazy ass, digital sounding shredding on every song? It's either smooth, soulful slow stuff or full on shredding with him; nothing inbetween.

[slucero]

[strangegrey]

Im not sure I had said that Neal has or should comp's his solos....but composing them? yes, definitely.
He has said that he wings them...and IIRC, solos as early in his career as lights were 'winged' solos.

However, even when you wing a solo, you're composing it. For example. He plays a solo....and goes "wait a minute, rewind that, I'm on the right track, lets do it again"....and he overdubs a second complete solo. Eventually, you nail down the right sound, feel and composition you want to go onto tape.

For me, the solos on eclipse are all over the place. There's no melodic value to most of them...Just a whole bunch of off the wall soloing without any palatable qualities to them.


Also, just a random thought.....we all talk about how Neal wanted to take this record in a more progressive, raw direction? Did everyone forget about the abortion that was Red 13? I normally call it Dead13, because that's about as bad as you can get......until this record.

[slucero]

Ya I get ya Frank.. what I meant was that Neal doesn't like to splice his solo's together... using ProTools...

IIRC he actually said (it was a recent interview too) he only likes to play it once or twice and he's done.. he doesn't like to do things over and over and over...

IMHO the best Journey work Neal does is when he is restrained by the song arrangement... that forces him to be play economically and for the song... on Eclipse I get and sense just the opposite...



Something from an interview with Schon, kinda to your point about song length... Schon cops to KS saying they were too long:

http://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/ ... r-455206/2

"Kevin and I went around and around on the radio edits. He felt that a lot of the songs were too long, and after a while I had to tell him, 'Enough. You're not touchin' my shit anymore. If you do, the record will sound like all the other ones. I'm not interested in that.'"

[conversationpc]

Also, just a random thought.....we all talk about how Neal wanted to take this record in a more progressive, raw direction? Did everyone forget about the abortion that was Red 13? I normally call it Dead13, because that's about as bad as you can get......until this record.

I actually really like three of the four songs on "Red 13".

[The_Noble_Cause]

I actually really like three of the four songs on "Red 13".

Same here. SOG is sorta lame. Eclipse reminds me of Red13, but Cain has added a few melodic touches.