MR

Gotta give it to Butterfly.

What do you say?

Can't stand "Tantra"...Believe it or not, I like "Butterfly" a lot better.

I absolutely love Tantra. The meaning as well as musically. It's structured similarly like some Queen/ Trans Siberian Orchestra songs.

Two very different songs. Two of the most non-sounding Journey songs.

I like them both. Tantra is more dramatic and Butterfly is more atmospheric.

Honestly, I think the main reason most Journey fans claim to hate "Butterfly" is simply because of its title because, honestly and musically-speaking, "Butterfly" is not that bad a tune.

I've actually come around on tantra....and greatly prefer it to almost everything on the record...when I listen to eclipse, I start at track 4 and go through to 7 and then skip to 11

The rest of the record is elephant dung

Take the beginning and end off of Tantra and you're left with a much better song. Take the beginning, middle and end off of Butterfly and the same applies.

They played Tantra in Dublin. Live it was absolutely stunning. I loved it and it looked like the audience was liking it as well.

No contest. Tantra by seven zillion miles.

'Tantra' comes across as too pointedly theatrical...too blocked & presented. It tries too hard to grab you & take you somewhere, rather than just picking you up for the ride.

'Butterfly' builds, but fades & only partially resolves...to keep you floating, more like an interlude in a melancholy movie scene. I think it's more Augeri than Journey, but at the same time, very much like 'Send Her My Love'. It's in a minor and takes you emotionally. Good strings, and Schon's guitar hauntingly soars...like some mythical bird, or in fact, the strength of a butterfly in the breeze.

Interesing comparison. The breathy softness of Augeri's voice has lilt, and is complimented by the music taking flight. I think with 'Tantra', Pineda sings it too upright & structured...like some high school recital.

I also go back to echo, reverb, & sustain. Not crazy about Generations as a whole, but this song has a great enveloping sonic to it. There's not enough of that (for me) on Eclipse.



later~

People hating Tantra just don't have a fuckin clue about music in general...

tanga wrote:People hating Tantra just don't have a fuckin clue about music in general...

Don't think anyone really 'hates' it. That's a bit extreme.
It's a very strong song...or rather 'piece'. Some of us just don't see it as Journey. For example, I hear Josh Groban.

For those that proclaim to get it, perhaps you can enlighten those of us that seem to not get it.
Tell us exactly why you like it...as Journey. If it's your goal to win us over, then do so. If not, then you're 'hating' on us, no?


later~

Arkansas wrote:

tanga wrote:People hating Tantra just don't have a fuckin clue about music in general...

Don't think anyone really 'hates' it. That's a bit extreme.
It's a very strong song...or rather 'piece'. Some of us just don't see it as Journey. For example, I hear Josh Groban.

For those that proclaim to get it, perhaps you can enlighten those of us that seem to not get it.
Tell us exactly why you like it...as Journey. If it's your goal to win us over, then do so. If not, then you're 'hating' on us, no?


later~

Wait a minute, I'm one of those fans who've been around and still love the pre-Perry music. Personally, I love this song, not sure what it is maybe a little reminiscent of Patiently. For me, it doesn't have to just sound like Journey, it just has to be a song I like. Journey's music hasn't been exactly consistent over the years.

Anyway, here's a youtube from Dublin...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fItfvzZqUFk

RocknRoll wrote: ... maybe a little reminiscent of Patiently.

Totally agree. For lack of better desc, Perry makes love to 'Patiently'. I think Augeri does the same to 'Butterfly'. All of the notes are flowing in & out. The emotional waves take you drifting like a boat on open water. And all the supporting music builds & fades complimentary.

'Tantra' maybe tries to do that, but there's no emotional flow word to word, syllable to syllable. It's as if the music was recorded in a very precise way, and then Pineda just sang words on top of it. 'Tantra', as much of this album, just has something emotionally missing...to me.


later~

Andrew wrote:No contest. Tantra by seven zillion miles.

Agreed. "Butterfly" is total amateur hour.

conversationpc wrote:Honestly, I think the main reason most Journey fans claim to hate "Butterfly" is simply because of its title because, honestly and musically-speaking, "Butterfly" is not that bad a tune.

I agree. Kind of reminds me of a vague recollection of a review of the song Hustler off of Next. Way back in Guitar for the Practicing Musician, I remember someone saying something like - It'd be better if it was someone else singing about something different

Arkansas wrote:'Tantra' comes across as too pointedly theatrical...too blocked & presented. It tries too hard to grab you & take you somewhere, rather than just picking you up for the ride.

'Butterfly' builds, but fades & only partially resolves...to keep you floating, more like an interlude in a melancholy movie scene. I think it's more Augeri than Journey, but at the same time, very much like 'Send Her My Love'. It's in a minor and takes you emotionally. Good strings, and Schon's guitar hauntingly soars...like some mythical bird, or in fact, the strength of a butterfly in the breeze.

Interesing comparison. The breathy softness of Augeri's voice has lilt, and is complimented by the music taking flight. I think with 'Tantra', Pineda sings it too upright & structured...like some high school recital.

I also go back to echo, reverb, & sustain. Not crazy about Generations as a whole, but this song has a great enveloping sonic to it. There's not enough of that (for me) on Eclipse.



later~

Wow, amazing way to describe these songs. I couldn't have articulated it myself, but I totally get what you mean on both counts.

How can people just not get into Tantra? It is amazing.

Butterfly is a good song, but Tantra is better...

Tantra is a pretty amazing song.

koberry wrote:

Arkansas wrote:'Tantra' comes across as too pointedly theatrical...too blocked & presented. It tries too hard to grab you & take you somewhere, rather than just picking you up for the ride.

'Butterfly' builds, but fades & only partially resolves...to keep you floating, more like an interlude in a melancholy movie scene. I think it's more Augeri than Journey, but at the same time, very much like 'Send Her My Love'. It's in a minor and takes you emotionally. Good strings, and Schon's guitar hauntingly soars...like some mythical bird, or in fact, the strength of a butterfly in the breeze.

Interesing comparison. The breathy softness of Augeri's voice has lilt, and is complimented by the music taking flight. I think with 'Tantra', Pineda sings it too upright & structured...like some high school recital.I also go back to echo, reverb, & sustain. Not crazy about Generations as a whole, but this song has a great enveloping sonic to it. There's not enough of that (for me) on Eclipse.



later~

Wow, amazing way to describe these songs. I couldn't have articulated it myself, but I totally get what you mean on both counts.

Absolutely!! Good Job, AR!!

Just because one does not like Tantra, for whatever reason, does not mean one
doesn't get it ...or doesn't understand music in general ...WTH?!? AP's take does not
touch me on this one, at all ...AR hit it ^^^^^

tanga wrote:People hating Tantra just don't have a fuckin clue about music in general...

Or perhaps just a different opinion, asshole.

Michigan Girl wrote:

koberry wrote:

Arkansas wrote:'Tantra' comes across as too pointedly theatrical...too blocked & presented. It tries too hard to grab you & take you somewhere, rather than just picking you up for the ride.

'Butterfly' builds, but fades & only partially resolves...to keep you floating, more like an interlude in a melancholy movie scene. I think it's more Augeri than Journey, but at the same time, very much like 'Send Her My Love'. It's in a minor and takes you emotionally. Good strings, and Schon's guitar hauntingly soars...like some mythical bird, or in fact, the strength of a butterfly in the breeze.

Interesing comparison. The breathy softness of Augeri's voice has lilt, and is complimented by the music taking flight. I think with 'Tantra', Pineda sings it too upright & structured...like some high school recital.I also go back to echo, reverb, & sustain. Not crazy about Generations as a whole, but this song has a great enveloping sonic to it. There's not enough of that (for me) on Eclipse.



later~

Wow, amazing way to describe these songs. I couldn't have articulated it myself, but I totally get what you mean on both counts.

Absolutely!! Good Job, AR!!

Just because one does not like Tantra, for whatever reason, does not mean one
doesn't get it ...or doesn't understand music in general ...WTH?!? AP's take does not
touch me on this one, at all ...AR hit it ^^^^^

x2. Reminds me too much of a local theater company musical to move my soul. I'd rather go listen to a church choir get jiggy about the baby Jesus.

Tantra over Butterfly anytime for my tastes.

I don't see any similarities between the two songs. I find Butterfly closer to She's A Mystery if anything.

Tantra is an album killer. If you're going to do a ballad, do it right or don't do one at all. That Rodgers & Hammerstein shtick adds major damage points to an otherwise decent record.

Don wrote:Tantra is an album killer. If you're going to do a ballad, do it right or don't do one at all. That Rodgers & Hammerstein shtick adds major damage points to an otherwise decent record.

I think Tantra is an album highlight, but whether it should have been on a Journey album is maybe open for debate. I like it for what it is, but I'm not exactly wishing for a repeat if/when there is a next album.

I think this is apples to oranges... Butterfly is an Augeri ballad with a Journey twist and certainly not the depth musically or lyrically that Tantra is. Tantra is Cain and Schon trying a totally different musical approach than Butterfly. The music-minded types on the board may love it for it's theatrical presentation and complexities, and that's great, but I hit skip everytime if comes on, and would take Butterfly any day. That said, to each his own, so I would never insult those who think it's pure gold, and understand that others dislike Butterfly as much or more. And, agree with conversationpc, with a different title I think some of the criticism disappears.

I don't think Butterfly is a bad song. Really, if the bad stuff on Generations wasn't so very bad, you would have a decent album. It's just that the shitty tracks overwhelm everything to the point where the entire project doesn't seem salvageable.

Don wrote:Tantra is an album killer. If you're going to do a ballad, do it right or don't do one at all.

Says who? And what is a Journey ballad "done right"? Grown men writing about boy meets girl, boy and girl enjoying hot summer nights of reckless youthful abandon, and then getting married, rings of golds, faded photographs, etc. etc. "Arrival" is full of such bubblegum tracks and they mostly suck ass. Can't believe the outpouring of love for "Butterfly", which is lyrically and musically pedestrian. It's as far removed from what Journey should be as a Menudo song. What the hell is wrong with you people? Neal's solo is its only saving grace, and even that can't save it. Judging by the opinions expressed in this thread, one gets the impression that if Bad English came out today, many of you would be urging for more Diane Warren tracks. Unreal.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

Don wrote:Tantra is an album killer. If you're going to do a ballad, do it right or don't do one at all.

Says who? And what is a Journey ballad "done right"? Grown men writing about boy meets girl, boy and girl enjoying hot summer nights of reckless youthful abandon, and then getting married, rings of golds, faded photographs, etc. etc. "Arrival" is full of such bubblegum tracks and they mostly suck ass. Can't believe the outpouring of love for "Butterfly", which is lyrically and musically pedestrian. It's as far removed from what Journey should be as a Menudo song. What the hell is wrong with you people? Neal's solo is its only saving grace, and even that can't save it. Judging by the opinions expressed in this thread, one gets the impression that if Bad English came out today, many of you would be urging for more Diane Warren tracks. Unreal.

"Butterfly" isn't a favorite at all but, sorry, it's better than "Tantra", in my opinion, in almost every way.