MR

For all that Arnel has brought to the band it appears that he (and really no one else) can sing these tunes for a whole tour without at least dropping the key. I didnt get out the guitar and check but it sounds LOW. Like a whole step instead of 1/2 on open arms.

Schon was right when he said, "Journey breaks singers. Arnel will be another casualty at some point and if they keep going after that I would be surprised. Even the new album is being sung down 1/2 step and it sounds heavier but it doesnt lift off. Same with the back catalog. Would have been neat to see what would have happened had they found Arnel in 98.

I hope to god he isnt shooting steroids to make it through tough shows. Then he will end up like Perry.

Liquid_Drummer wrote:Then he will end up like Perry.

And SA.

So how did Perry do it all those years. I know he was younger than the others starting off. But damn... Of course AP has been singing the songs for who knows how long prior to Journey.. Truely sad that it can do the damage it does.

They've been stepping down, then stepping back up on other concerts this year. I think they do this sometimes as a relief when they have gigs close together.

I just can't be overly critical of that. It just shows they are trying to take care of Arnel to some degree.

Here is a decent partial clip of Ask The Lonely from Graspop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnWfvNpatgc

If they play a full step down in August I will walk out. Half a step is one thing, but even the most casual listener would notice something "off" about a full step. That's absurd.

Perry shined on this in '86

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJTM1J-H ... re=related

scarab wrote:Perry shined on this in '86

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJTM1J-H ... re=related

Holy fuck! That was awful!

I'm sure they'll be stepped down the whole U.S. tour. Foreigner does it with Kelly too (granted, he's five years older than Pineda).
There is no album to push (Eclipse is DOA), there's really nothing worth blowing out Arnel's voice over. These festival shows have shortened setlists to boot. Going up and down doesn't seem feasible. Just leave it it down half a step and move on.
I read a few comments elsewhere where AP was getting props over Kelly because Hanson sings low. Well, guess what, it happens to everybody and that's why stage presence and other variables are important to compensate for those type of shortcomings. When you're performing live, it's more than just being a voice and it goes a long ways to explaining why Foreigner has gotten such a high score card so far this tour

scarab wrote:Perry shined on this in '86

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJTM1J-H ... re=related

The dude was speedballing through that tour. Don't embarrass the man by posting those kinds of clips.

Don wrote:

scarab wrote:Perry shined on this in '86

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJTM1J-H ... re=related

The dude was speedballing through that tour. Don't embarrass the man by posting those kinds of clips.

Sarcasm, since I don't recall you ever being overly concern with embarrassing anyone, right?

Don wrote:

scarab wrote:Perry shined on this in '86

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJTM1J-H ... re=related

The dude was speedballing through that tour. Don't embarrass the man by posting those kinds of clips.

I think Perry was pretty fucked up on that tour, emotionally and vocally, and it shows when you hear clips like this. Swearing at shows and stuff was never like the Perry of earlier years, so even that tells me that it wasn't the same guy from previous years. Is it any wonder he cut the tour stone dead.

steveo777 wrote:

Don wrote:

scarab wrote:Perry shined on this in '86

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJTM1J-H ... re=related

The dude was speedballing through that tour. Don't embarrass the man by posting those kinds of clips.

Sarcasm, since I don't recall you ever being overly concern with embarrassing anyone, right?

I'm obviously saying it' a shit clip and promoting it as a shining moment is a disservice to the artist.

Oh who cares! What's important it where did Arnel get that coat?! I want it!!!

Perry is making my ears bleed

youkeepmewaiting wrote:Perry is making my ears bleed

Go listen to Journey from 77 to 83 and then you'll be better

When did Perry do I Stand Alone?

Don wrote:

scarab wrote:Perry shined on this in '86

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJTM1J-H ... re=related

The dude was speedballing through that tour. Don't embarrass the man by posting those kinds of clips.

The only thing awful about that was that it was awful fast. The vocal notes were right on, proving his voice was just fine in 1986. The tempo was lightning fast and would have required insane breathing technique to even pull that off.

Not sure why they played the songs that fast on that tour, but the vocals are spot on. All the notes were hit even on the Infinity stuff they did on that tour in the original key. Maybe SP preferred to speed up the tempo rather than drop tune in order to preserve his voice.

Never heard anyone ask him or Neal or Jon why that was done, but of course that would be blamed on SP too.
Everyone now bitches about his actions back then, but every one of them were cashing multi-million dollar checks that his voice was writing for them.

Oh well, at least they can't blame the embarrasing flop of Eclipse on him, although I'm sure they would try if given the chance.

escapefan wrote:When did Perry do I Stand Alone?

1998. Last thing from him, solo-wise. He sounds great on that. If he had that voice today, he could still be mega-successful on new stuff and still do a ton of the back catalog. But Andrew has told us that even if he can sing like that, it's uncomfortable for him.

That sucks.

Most concert goers aren't going to have a clue, because they're going to be waving their beers and singing along. People on this board analyze a concert. Most people go to experience a concert. As long as Arnel hits the notes, most won't know or care what key it's in.

steveo777 wrote:They've been stepping down, then stepping back up on other concerts this year. I think they do this sometimes as a relief when they have gigs close together.

I just can't be overly critical of that. It just shows they are trying to take care of Arnel to some degree.

Here is a decent partial clip of Ask The Lonely from Graspop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnWfvNpatgc

YUP.

When the gigs are close together, there's not enough time for Arnel to recover. 3 Day shows with this range are tough to do.
It's obviously a preventative measure. Doesn't mean the guy is washed up and that he'll be ruined after the tour and that Journey's done.
Journey has obviously learned their lesson and are doing what they can to help Arnel get through the tour intact. Not sure why to some this is a bad thing. I have heard Arnel mention steroids, but I don't think it was the shots which every singer knows is detrimental.
I think back in Perry's day, that was seen as a 'magic bullet' and it wasn't known that in the end his voice would be wrecked. It was still relatively new back then (wasn't it?)

Regarding the 86 and later 83 tours, the band played things in the same key but about 5 times the speed of the original recordings so SP didn't have to hold the notes long. Was not a good thing to do, sounded ridiculous.

I think Journey should be commended for doing what they have to do and Arnel should be commended because the show must go on.
Could be worse, could be using tapes...

Saint John wrote:

scarab wrote:Perry shined on this in '86

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJTM1J-H ... re=related

Holy fuck! That was awful!

He sounds bombed out there. I don;t think it has anything to do with his voice.

I know this is the journey forum, but since steve was a major ingredient of their success need I remind you of "Daydream"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PSdcJX-s6E&feature=related

Talent never dies; it just becomes scratched and worn like our favorite records.

escapefan wrote:So how did Perry do it all those years. I know he was younger than the others starting off. But damn... Of course AP has been singing the songs for who knows how long prior to Journey.. Truely sad that it can do the damage it does.

excerpt from: One In A Million, A Vocal Analysis Of "The Voice"

Steve Perry was a Countertenor, which is the name given to male vocalists who sing in the highest musical register. Soprano is the female equivalent (although not an exact parallel) whose natural voices usually carry to a higher register than their male counterparts (but not always).

Male sopranos are usually boys whose voices have not yet broken (there are male ‘sopranists’ but extremely rare). Males usually go beyond their normal range (modal/ full voice) by using falsetto, although ‘head voice’ is a similar vocal category usually defined as the voice in a natural high pitch.

Perry used falsetto for the notes at the very top of his range, but whereas many rock countertenors use some form of head voice or falsetto once beyond the ‘tenor high C’, Perry produced most of his countertenor range in full voice before using any form of falsetto.

Men are usually divided into four groups:

1. Countertenor (equivalent to that of a contralto, mezzo-soprano, or a soprano)
2. Tenor
3. Baritone
4. Bass

IMHO, Journey singers would be listed as follows in the above list:

1. Countertenor - SP
2. Tenor - SA, JSS, AP
3. Baritone
4. Bass

This graphic should also help...



IMHO, the real reason Perry lasted so much longer is that his base range, i.e. his starting point was higher. This, in concert with good vocal technique (watch him sing, its effortless) and rest regimen (remember the distant, aloof Perry?) allowed SP to last as long as he did... yet even still, in the end the wear and tear of the endless touring still damaged his voice, as it did to SA...

I think you're right about all except that JSS is really a baritone. He can get into the tenor ranges using whatever method he does but his natural range is a baritone. It's probably why he's singing in his natural range in TSO.

I am no voice expert, far from it..so I base my opinion on listening to his speaking voice... the resting voice... and where its naturally at and when he talks his voice is clearly baritone.

AP, SA and SP are clearly natural tenors when they speak.

Thanks for the explanation..

He made it all seem effortless.

madsplash wrote:

escapefan wrote:When did Perry do I Stand Alone?

1998. Last thing from him, solo-wise. He sounds great on that. If he had that voice today, he could still be mega-successful on new stuff and still do a ton of the back catalog. But Andrew has told us that even if he can sing like that, it's uncomfortable for him.

That sucks.

You expect us to believe that he WAS able to change album art work, liquidate their assets and fire members, but he was NOT able to dictate song tempo?!?! The lightning tempo was to mask a failing voice and there are plenty of bootlegs from that tour that captured him cracking for the first time ever. Escape tour was carried by medicine, the Frontiers album showed the radical change in voice, ROR saw the last desperate attempt to sing in the original key, FTLOSM showed a half step down with many songs no longer in his wheel house even a half step down and TBF showed us he could no longer tour at all. It's right there if you care to accept the facts. Or you could run around jizzing all over yourself and believe Steve Lipkather, Uncle Joe Benson and Randy Jackson when they say that he still sounds like he did in the mid 80's.

Saint John wrote:

madsplash wrote:

escapefan wrote:When did Perry do I Stand Alone?

1998. Last thing from him, solo-wise. He sounds great on that. If he had that voice today, he could still be mega-successful on new stuff and still do a ton of the back catalog. But Andrew has told us that even if he can sing like that, it's uncomfortable for him.

That sucks.

You expect us to believe that he WAS able to change album art work, liquidate their assets and fire members, but he was NOT able to dictate song tempo?!?! The lightning tempo was to mask a failing voice and there are plenty of bootlegs from that tour that captured him cracking for the first time ever. Escape tour was carried by medicine, the Frontiers album showed the radical change in voice, ROR saw the last desperate attempt to sing in the original key, FTLOSM showed a half step down with many songs no longer in his wheel house even a half step down and TBF showed us he could no longer tour at all. It's right there if you care to accept the facts. Or you could run around jizzing all over yourself and believe Steve Lipkather, Uncle Joe Benson and Randy Jackson when they say that he still sounds like he did in the mid 80's.

On the solo tour, many tunes were more than a half step down, by the way
Hey, whatever you have to do to get through the shows as long as you're really doing it.

Pineda doesn't sing stepped down on his solo tours though. It's obviously a catalog issue.

Saint John wrote:

madsplash wrote:

escapefan wrote:When did Perry do I Stand Alone?

1998. Last thing from him, solo-wise. He sounds great on that. If he had that voice today, he could still be mega-successful on new stuff and still do a ton of the back catalog. But Andrew has told us that even if he can sing like that, it's uncomfortable for him.

That sucks.

You expect us to believe that he WAS able to change album art work, liquidate their assets and fire members, but he was NOT able to dictate song tempo?!?! The lightning tempo was to mask a failing voice and there are plenty of bootlegs from that tour that captured him cracking for the first time ever. Escape tour was carried by medicine, the Frontiers album showed the radical change in voice, ROR saw the last desperate attempt to sing in the original key, FTLOSM showed a half step down with many songs no longer in his wheel house even a half step down and TBF showed us he could no longer tour at all. It's right there if you care to accept the facts. Or you could run around jizzing all over yourself and believe Steve Lipkather, Uncle Joe Benson and Randy Jackson when they say that he still sounds like he did in the mid 80's.

I have to agree with you. When he said he was toast he wasn't kidding. He completely burnt out during the ROR tour both emotionally and vocally to where he had to finally just quit altogether. I think he recovered quite a bit over time to do FTLOSM and the brief tour but that even took a bit of toll on his voice again. He then did TBF but I think he realized he would not be able to tour and sing the dirty dozen as required by the audience. Shame, though because even though his voice was damaged and different he could have continued singing in lower tenor ranges.....probably still can too...but he can't sing in Journey. I think he would have liked to sing in Journey again and tour, he just couldn't.

Don wrote:Pineda doesn't sing stepped down on his solo tours though. It's obviously a catalog issue.

I agree. Eclipse songs are difficult to sing night after night also. As a female, I can't reach many of the notes SP and AP reach when I try to sing along to the songs and singing along to an entire album is tiring even sitting down. lol I really admire these guys for what they could do in SP's case and AP for what he does now.