Thoughts on the SP interview

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Thoughts on the SP interview

Postby annie89509 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:17 am

What a terrific job Andrew did on his talk with SP. Despite the usual skepticism, but knowing that Andrew is such a capable interviewer, there never was a doubt we would get some refreshing new insight on the SP/Journey dynamics. Key moments I got out of this interview were:

--After years of fan debate, I think we can finally lay to rest the “why can’t Perry give the Band his blessings…” topic.

--SP has had an ongoing business relationship with Sony, but that doesn’t seem to constraint him from (occasionally) criticizing them. FTLOSM isn’t included in this new venture, and I think he is irked by the decision.

--It’s been a long hard road for Steve “getting back on the saddle” (not to mention for his legion of faithful fans). Now, we hear he is “committed” to new music. Of course, he’s got to point out that it is at his timetable, not anyone else’s.

And, finally,

--a full conversation where Steve didn’t say “I owe you money” -- haha, I actually always loved that phrase.

And, also,

--Andrew, what will it take for you to post the audio of Steve singing those verses? You know it would put another hot topic of fan debate to rest if you did. Imagine the traffic that would flood this site!!!!!

Anyone else?
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Postby Michigan Girl » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:30 am

No doubt about it, Andrew got some fresh insight/new material ...
probably the best Sp interview I've ever read!!
However, it matters not what he said/says ...nothing
will ever be put to rest, here!! Good try though!! :wink:
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Postby Jana » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:37 am

A really great interview. I still don't feel we will ever see an album. But 100 percent believe we will never see him perform live again.
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Postby Don » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:07 am

I don't see a full album or live appearance anywhere in Perry's future but it doesn't bother me. The stuff that's already out there has given me over 30 years of enjoyment tangled with wonderful memories, can't ask for much more than that.
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Postby Don » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:16 am

I found the mention of outside writers for TBF interesting. That's something we did see on Arrival, Red13 and Generations. One thing I didn't realize until now is that Augeri only has writing credits on 13 of the 34 songs recorded during his tenure with the band. When we see the limited contribution of Pineda on Eclipse, it just seems that Jon and Neal really have had a hard time finding that third spoke to help them write memorable songs.
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Postby onmyjrny » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:58 am

One thing that really sticks out in my mind is how much respect he has for Neal. Still has, after all that has been said and done. He doesn't hold back on his praise at all. That to me shows his class.

I would love to hear little stories on how more of the songs were written or came together. I just love those!
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Postby RossValoryRocks » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:08 am

onmyjrny wrote:One thing that really sticks out in my mind is how much respect he has for Neal. Still has, after all that has been said and done. He doesn't hold back on his praise at all. That to me shows his class.

I would love to hear little stories on how more of the songs were written or came together. I just love those!


Respect for the musician that Neal is definately...don't know about resepect of any other type...
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Postby onmyjrny » Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:55 am

RossValoryRocks wrote:
onmyjrny wrote:One thing that really sticks out in my mind is how much respect he has for Neal. Still has, after all that has been said and done. He doesn't hold back on his praise at all. That to me shows his class.

I would love to hear little stories on how more of the songs were written or came together. I just love those!


Respect for the musician that Neal is definately...don't know about resepect of any other type...


:D Absolutely; should have clarified that a bit!!
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Postby Triple S » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:00 am

RossValoryRocks wrote:
onmyjrny wrote:One thing that really sticks out in my mind is how much respect he has for Neal. Still has, after all that has been said and done. He doesn't hold back on his praise at all. That to me shows his class.

I would love to hear little stories on how more of the songs were written or came together. I just love those!


Respect for the musician that Neal is definately...don't know about resepect of any other type...


Not very respectful to say that Neal was playing with himself :lol:

"As long as he did it in time, then it would just loop and it would allow him to play with himself while we're not there"

(Sorry - I just got a huge chuckle out of that wording when I read it).

Great job Andrew, very enjoyable read!
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Re: Thoughts on the SP interview

Postby froy » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:07 am

annie89509 wrote:What a terrific job Andrew did on his talk with SP. Despite the usual skepticism, but knowing that Andrew is such a capable interviewer,


Good interview but to many missing questions
The dreaming thing is ridiculous Its been 14 years of dreaming and nothing has come out of it.
He's setting up drums in his house to start his dreaming sessions?
He sounds like a lost soul with no direction.
He was pissed of at the JRNY guys during TBF? Why they waited 2 years for him to do whatever he needed to do. It was his fault and his way out of touring that is not hard to see.
To say he has 50 songs is ridiculous he has 50 1 liners with nobody to collaborate with them on, He should call Neil up and those songs would be done in 1 week, He is a voice with out a band and he should be calling up Cain
to put those sketches into action.

I would have asked why didn't you release Happy To Give it's the best song on the cd Why didn't you play it live?
It's time for Steve Perry to stop telling us all of these crazy stories about dreaming and time to sing with Journey again. His life is wasting away and its really a huge shame that all he has left is to tell us stories.
He loves the guys in JRNY so do we than what the hell is the problem? What's the problem Steve its been 14 years you think anyone gives a damn about the 2nd break up? All they want to hear about is the 3rd reunion we are stuck in life with
negative bullshit everywhere we turn , It would be nice if Perry had the balls to step up and say Im ready to close this one out for me for the fans and for the world, We are done hearing we went our separate ways thats bullshit,
We are on this earth to bring joy to our fello man not here to tell stories.

Lets go Steve Perry wake up man
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Re: Thoughts on the SP interview

Postby Arianddu » Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:43 am

froy wrote:We are on this earth to bring joy to our fello man not here to tell stories.


Nope. We are here to live our lives as best we can; if we leave a mark on others that makes their lives better, fantastic, but it's not our reason for living.

Steve Perry owes no one anything (except, apparently, a lot of money to people who say nice things about him on air.) In a relatively short time he went through breaking a hip, several years of pain, knowing if he made the wrong choice the pain was never going to go away, AND watching the band he loved and tied his life and sense of self worth into walk away from him, plus throw in maybe some vocal health issues (he'd had pneumonia only shortly before; that can wreck a singer and leave them much more vulnerable to further problems) - hell, I can understand it taking ten, twenty years to get over it. He was pretty honest about it and about why he hasn't put out new music: there isn't a label pushing for a deadline and his perfectionist streak makes him his own worst enemy.
Why treat life as a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving in an attractive & well-preserved body? Get there by skidding in sideways, a glass of wine in one hand, chocolate in the other, body totally worn out, screaming WOOHOO! What a ride!
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Re: Thoughts on the SP interview

Postby onmyjrny » Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:49 am

froy wrote:
annie89509 wrote:What a terrific job Andrew did on his talk with SP. Despite the usual skepticism, but knowing that Andrew is such a capable interviewer,


Good interview but to many missing questions
The dreaming thing is ridiculous Its been 14 years of dreaming and nothing has come out of it.
He's setting up drums in his house to start his dreaming sessions?
He sounds like a lost soul with no direction.
He was pissed of at the JRNY guys during TBF? Why they waited 2 years for him to do whatever he needed to do. It was his fault and his way out of touring that is not hard to see.
To say he has 50 songs is ridiculous he has 50 1 liners with nobody to collaborate with them on, He should call Neil up and those songs would be done in 1 week, He is a voice with out a band and he should be calling up Cain
to put those sketches into action.
I would have asked why didn't you release Happy To Give it's the best song on the cd Why didn't you play it live?
It's time for Steve Perry to stop telling us all of these crazy stories about dreaming and time to sing with Journey again. His life is wasting away and its really a huge shame that all he has left is to tell us stories.
He loves the guys in JRNY so do we than what the hell is the problem? What's the problem Steve its been 14 years you think anyone gives a damn about the 2nd break up? All they want to hear about is the 3rd reunion we are stuck in life with
negative bullshit everywhere we turn , It would be nice if Perry had the balls to step up and say Im ready to close this one out for me for the fans and for the world, We are done hearing we went our separate ways thats bullshit,
We are on this earth to bring joy to our fello man not here to tell stories.

Lets go Steve Perry wake up man


Why SHOULD he be doing any of this? People work because a. they need the money or b. they need the fulfillment. No one works because other people think they should. Perry doesn't need the money and it sounds to me like he is finding his fulfillment on his own terms. If he wants to sing into his laptop for the rest of his life, he has that right.

Just get over it! Enjoy what he gave us and be glad that we have what we do.
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Re: Thoughts on the SP interview

Postby Navarro » Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:55 am

onmyjrny wrote:
froy wrote:
annie89509 wrote:What a terrific job Andrew did on his talk with SP. Despite the usual skepticism, but knowing that Andrew is such a capable interviewer,


Good interview but to many missing questions
The dreaming thing is ridiculous Its been 14 years of dreaming and nothing has come out of it.
He's setting up drums in his house to start his dreaming sessions?
He sounds like a lost soul with no direction.
He was pissed of at the JRNY guys during TBF? Why they waited 2 years for him to do whatever he needed to do. It was his fault and his way out of touring that is not hard to see.
To say he has 50 songs is ridiculous he has 50 1 liners with nobody to collaborate with them on, He should call Neil up and those songs would be done in 1 week, He is a voice with out a band and he should be calling up Cain
to put those sketches into action.
I would have asked why didn't you release Happy To Give it's the best song on the cd Why didn't you play it live?
It's time for Steve Perry to stop telling us all of these crazy stories about dreaming and time to sing with Journey again. His life is wasting away and its really a huge shame that all he has left is to tell us stories.
He loves the guys in JRNY so do we than what the hell is the problem? What's the problem Steve its been 14 years you think anyone gives a damn about the 2nd break up? All they want to hear about is the 3rd reunion we are stuck in life with
negative bullshit everywhere we turn , It would be nice if Perry had the balls to step up and say Im ready to close this one out for me for the fans and for the world, We are done hearing we went our separate ways thats bullshit,
We are on this earth to bring joy to our fello man not here to tell stories.

Lets go Steve Perry wake up man


Why SHOULD he be doing any of this? People work because a. they need the money or b. they need the fulfillment. No one works because other people think they should. Perry doesn't need the money and it sounds to me like he is finding his fulfillment on his own terms. If he wants to sing into his laptop for the rest of his life, he has that right.

Just get over it! Enjoy what he gave us and be glad that we have what we do.


Amen!
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Re: Thoughts on the SP interview

Postby Monker » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:20 pm

froy wrote:
annie89509 wrote:What a terrific job Andrew did on his talk with SP. Despite the usual skepticism, but knowing that Andrew is such a capable interviewer,


Good interview but to many missing questions
The dreaming thing is ridiculous Its been 14 years of dreaming and nothing has come out of it.
He's setting up drums in his house to start his dreaming sessions?
He sounds like a lost soul with no direction.
He was pissed of at the JRNY guys during TBF? Why they waited 2 years for him to do whatever he needed to do. It was his fault and his way out of touring that is not hard to see.
To say he has 50 songs is ridiculous he has 50 1 liners with nobody to collaborate with them on, He should call Neil up and those songs would be done in 1 week, He is a voice with out a band and he should be calling up Cain
to put those sketches into action.

I would have asked why didn't you release Happy To Give it's the best song on the cd Why didn't you play it live?
It's time for Steve Perry to stop telling us all of these crazy stories about dreaming and time to sing with Journey again. His life is wasting away and its really a huge shame that all he has left is to tell us stories.
He loves the guys in JRNY so do we than what the hell is the problem? What's the problem Steve its been 14 years you think anyone gives a damn about the 2nd break up? All they want to hear about is the 3rd reunion we are stuck in life with
negative bullshit everywhere we turn , It would be nice if Perry had the balls to step up and say Im ready to close this one out for me for the fans and for the world, We are done hearing we went our separate ways thats bullshit,
We are on this earth to bring joy to our fello man not here to tell stories.

Lets go Steve Perry wake up man


You know, some of the best songs 'tell stories'. And, "Faithfully" was inspired from a dream. And, I think both have brought a lot of joy to people.

So, obviously, you have no idea what you are blabbing about.

I think he has already closed his book on Journey...and it is up to people to figure out when they want to do that for themselves. It's interesting that after so many years, you still have the selfish view that Perry should be in Journey and Dennis should be in Styx, even if it is NOT what the band members themselves want, or feel is best for themselves.
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Postby slucero » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:52 pm

lol froy...

its been 14 years... ya think its gonna happen now?



time to move on man...

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


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Postby tammy » Sat Oct 29, 2011 2:26 pm

Triple S wrote:
RossValoryRocks wrote:
onmyjrny wrote:One thing that really sticks out in my mind is how much respect he has for Neal. Still has, after all that has been said and done. He doesn't hold back on his praise at all. That to me shows his class.

I would love to hear little stories on how more of the songs were written or came together. I just love those!


Respect for the musician that Neal is definately...don't know about resepect of any other type...


Not very respectful to say that Neal was playing with himself :lol:

"As long as he did it in time, then it would just loop and it would allow him to play with himself while we're not there"

(Sorry - I just got a huge chuckle out of that wording when I read it).

Great job Andrew, very enjoyable read!


Lol...missed that, too funny. Today at a stoplight I looked over at the marquee for Wendy's (when did they get a marquee?) and it flashed: "Dave's hot and juicy"...pause...then it flashed: "thicker meat on toasted buns". Had to laugh.

I think I was pleasantly surprised that there was much more open-ness in this interview than I expected. I guess I was thinking he would be a bit more guarded with Andrew. I like how Andrew let Steve do the talking (I dislike intensely when interviewers blabber on and on and leave no time for the celebrity to talk)...it is great that Andrew is more than an interviewer but lives and breathes music so even 'tho I didn't understand all the sound engineer speak I think it was cool to hear about it...yeah, it's sexy, all that smartness. There was a lot crammed in the interview but as always I could listen forever and hate when I scroll down and see the end.
Now, I didn't know that "Oh, Sherrie" was a massive hit down under until now (btw, I was in a thrift store today and it came on the radio..hadn't heard it in a long while) and it was great for Andrew to finally tell SP how much his music means to him.
I don't think that I am feeling any different about the "possibility" of new music coming our way...I still sense that he has those ghosts to wrestle, but that's okay...still love him, always will. He continues to be a classy guy and all the hard, heart-bleeding work and emotion he poured out to millions is nothing but a continuing gift. He deserves to just be.
But, ya know I think he would make a great film editor...he is a storyteller. He could easily fit the music selection to the pictures...that would be exciting!
(ugh, I just read the above post by negativity guy...geez, what do you think life is about?! STORIES. I bet the universe designed it that way...if we aren't watching stories on t.v./film, we are reading them or we are being them. Just like it is said, "all the world is a stage".
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Postby annie89509 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:48 pm

Don wrote:I don't see a full album or live appearance anywhere in Perry's future but it doesn't bother me. The stuff that's already out there has given me over 30 years of enjoyment tangled with wonderful memories, can't ask for much more than that.

I have my doubts on a full album, also...but certainly optimistic on a song or 2, downloadable to the public. Steve is a sensitive guy, I think he feels for the fans desperately wanting to hear something new from him. As he said in an earlier interviewer, nobody is getting any younger.
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Postby annie89509 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:58 pm

Don wrote:I found the mention of outside writers for TBF interesting. That's something we did see on Arrival, Red13 and Generations. One thing I didn't realize until now is that Augeri only has writing credits on 13 of the 34 songs recorded during his tenure with the band. When we see the limited contribution of Pineda on Eclipse, it just seems that Jon and Neal really have had a hard time finding that third spoke to help them write memorable songs.

I did, too, Don. We know, with the exception of a few songs from their 1st album together(Infinity), and Jon's song Faithfully, SP had a hand in writing every one of the songs he sang with Journey. Hard to see which member would suggest calling in outside writers for their reunion album...the Label, maybe.
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Postby annie89509 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:19 pm

RossValoryRocks wrote:
onmyjrny wrote:One thing that really sticks out in my mind is how much respect he has for Neal. Still has, after all that has been said and done. He doesn't hold back on his praise at all. That to me shows his class.

I would love to hear little stories on how more of the songs were written or came together. I just love those!


Respect for the musician that Neal is definately...don't know about resepect of any other type...

Knowing their backstories like we hardcores do, through fansite archived interviews, articles, audio tapes, one could speculate that the Steve/Neal bond started to strain with Jon joining the band. Wasn't it said that by ROR, Neal was practically left out of everything? Jon has said many times he and Steve had a writing chemistry...an affinity for love ballads...one old quote was "we're old romantics at heart." I think Neal was thought of as the wild child.
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Postby annie89509 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:25 pm

Triple S wrote:
RossValoryRocks wrote:
onmyjrny wrote:One thing that really sticks out in my mind is how much respect he has for Neal. Still has, after all that has been said and done. He doesn't hold back on his praise at all. That to me shows his class.

I would love to hear little stories on how more of the songs were written or came together. I just love those!


Respect for the musician that Neal is definately...don't know about resepect of any other type...


Not very respectful to say that Neal was playing with himself :lol:

"As long as he did it in time, then it would just loop and it would allow him to play with himself while we're not there"

(Sorry - I just got a huge chuckle out of that wording when I read it).

Great job Andrew, very enjoyable read!

Haha...I got a kick out of Steve saying Neal was always "noodling" with his guitar...which is exactly what some posters are saying Neal is doing too much of in concert now. I have never heard of that term used before, prior to reading here. Exactly, what is the guitarist doing when he is "noodling?" Someone, explain that to me...
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Re: Thoughts on the SP interview

Postby annie89509 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:31 pm

[quote="froyGood interview but to many missing questions
The dreaming thing is ridiculous Its been 14 years of dreaming and nothing has come out of it.
He's setting up drums in his house to start his dreaming sessions?
He sounds like a lost soul with no direction.
He was pissed of at the JRNY guys during TBF? Why they waited 2 years for him to do whatever he needed to do. It was his fault and his way out of touring that is not hard to see.
To say he has 50 songs is ridiculous he has 50 1 liners with nobody to collaborate with them on, He should call Neil up and those songs would be done in 1 week, He is a voice with out a band and he should be calling up Cain
to put those sketches into action.

I would have asked why didn't you release Happy To Give it's the best song on the cd Why didn't you play it live?
It's time for Steve Perry to stop telling us all of these crazy stories about dreaming and time to sing with Journey again. His life is wasting away and its really a huge shame that all he has left is to tell us stories.
He loves the guys in JRNY so do we than what the hell is the problem? What's the problem Steve its been 14 years you think anyone gives a damn about the 2nd break up? All they want to hear about is the 3rd reunion we are stuck in life with
negative bullshit everywhere we turn , It would be nice if Perry had the balls to step up and say Im ready to close this one out for me for the fans and for the world, We are done hearing we went our separate ways thats bullshit,
We are on this earth to bring joy to our fello man not here to tell stories.
Lets go Steve Perry wake up man[/quote]
Froy, that would be the 2nd reunion.... :wink:
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Postby annie89509 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:34 pm

Thanks, guys, always like to hear what other posters think.
New poster Navarro, are you the Dave Navarro?
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Postby marco17 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:30 pm

Don wrote:I found the mention of outside writers for TBF interesting. That's something we did see on Arrival, Red13 and Generations. One thing I didn't realize until now is that Augeri only has writing credits on 13 of the 34 songs recorded during his tenure with the band. When we see the limited contribution of Pineda on Eclipse, it just seems that Jon and Neal really have had a hard time finding that third spoke to help them write memorable songs.


In all honesty, I am pretty surprised that SA is credited with 13 out of only 2 full length releases and an EP. There isn't a lot of original material out there that we know about with Arnel, so he may not be the worlds best songwriter in comparison to Neal and Jon, just due to lack of experience, and that is no knock on him. Neal made comments at one time that he did have some chemistry with Augeri, but it was implied that it wasn't great. That is not all that surprising when you listen to Tall Stories or some of Augeri's new solo material. It isn't Journey sounding material, so simply, they may not be on the same wavelength. I know a couple people who have mentioned they like SA's new solo stuff, but it's taking some time to get used to, because they are so used to him singing Journey material. I think that songwriting relationships like the 3 guys had during the heyday are really special and don't come along very often. There was just some magic there when the 3 wrote something that hasn't been there since Perry left Journey (although they have done some good stuff with Augeri and Arnel) or Perry's solo efforts.
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Re: Thoughts on the SP interview

Postby froy » Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:54 pm

"Monker""froy



You know, some of the best songs 'tell stories'. And, "Faithfully" was inspired from a dream. And, I think both have brought a lot of joy to people.


Boy are you a kiss ass . You want to tell us about Dreams ? Dennis Deyoung talked about dreams for 35 years and all you do is blast the guy,
Your a 2 face Monker


I think he has already closed his book on Journey.


He's closed the book on his entire career and that was the entire purpose of my post, the guy is wasting his life away banging on his drums in the corner of his house and singing into his computer. That to me a lost soul.

It's interesting that after so many years, you still have the selfish view that Perry should be in Journey and Dennis should be in Styx,


It's even more interesting that you are so dumb not to agree.


even if it is NOT what the band members themselves want, or feel is best for themselves.


JRNY takes Perry back in a snap Tommy Shaw lives with spite and is to stupid to see the light he would rather see 900 boozers in the crowd instead
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Postby onmyjrny » Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:35 am

annie89509 wrote:
Don wrote:I found the mention of outside writers for TBF interesting. That's something we did see on Arrival, Red13 and Generations. One thing I didn't realize until now is that Augeri only has writing credits on 13 of the 34 songs recorded during his tenure with the band. When we see the limited contribution of Pineda on Eclipse, it just seems that Jon and Neal really have had a hard time finding that third spoke to help them write memorable songs.

I did, too, Don. We know, with the exception of a few songs from their 1st album together(Infinity), and Jon's song Faithfully, SP had a hand in writing every one of the songs he sang with Journey. Hard to see which member would suggest calling in outside writers for their reunion album...the Label, maybe.


That got me wondering too...I remember Jon did an interview after Bad English broke up and he was really really PO'ed that the #1 song they had was written by an outsider. So no way Jon would suggest bringing in anyone else. Maybe Neal? If he felt there were too many ballads he might have wanted someone to crank out some more rock songs with him.
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Re: Thoughts on the SP interview

Postby onmyjrny » Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:52 am

froy wrote:
"Monker""froy



You know, some of the best songs 'tell stories'. And, "Faithfully" was inspired from a dream. And, I think both have brought a lot of joy to people.


Boy are you a kiss ass . You want to tell us about Dreams ? Dennis Deyoung talked about dreams for 35 years and all you do is blast the guy,
Your a 2 face Monker


I think he has already closed his book on Journey.


He's closed the book on his entire career and that was the entire purpose of my post, the guy is wasting his life away banging on his drums in the corner of his house and singing into his computer. That to me a lost soul.

It's interesting that after so many years, you still have the selfish view that Perry should be in Journey and Dennis should be in Styx,


It's even more interesting that you are so dumb not to agree.


even if it is NOT what the band members themselves want, or feel is best for themselves.


JRNY takes Perry back in a snap Tommy Shaw lives with spite and is to stupid to see the light he would rather see 900 boozers in the crowd instead



Come on, be fair. Wasting his life according to who? Do you really call going to movie premieres, having a beautiful girlfriend, learning film editing, producing music for people, and reworking past projects wasting his life? The man is 62 years old. He has lived an incredible life and has had his fair share of success. By all indications, he never particularly liked the limelight and doesn't want to be in it. He is living his life the way he wants. If only I could be so lucky!!
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Postby Navarro » Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:19 am

annie89509 wrote:Thanks, guys, always like to hear what other posters think.
New poster Navarro, are you the Dave Navarro?


LOL! No, I am not THE Dave Navarro. I like his playing sometimes. Navarro the luthier of one of my nylon string guitars!:) I'm just a closet Journey/SP fanatic.
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Postby Tito » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:46 am

Don wrote:I found the mention of outside writers for TBF interesting. That's something we did see on Arrival, Red13 and Generations. One thing I didn't realize until now is that Augeri only has writing credits on 13 of the 34 songs recorded during his tenure with the band. When we see the limited contribution of Pineda on Eclipse, it just seems that Jon and Neal really have had a hard time finding that third spoke to help them write memorable songs.


I didn't realize it was even that much.
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