Neal wasn't the first to hire a clone

[Voyager]

Watch this lead guitar solo starting at 2:38 and tell me that this didn't piss Neal off when he saw it. Neal wasn't the first to hire a clone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxQsbaBpjto

[Ehwmatt]

Watch this lead guitar solo starting at 2:38 and tell me that this didn't piss Neal off when he saw it. Neal wasn't the first to hire a clone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxQsbaBpjto

Comparing Lincoln Brewster to Arnel is pretty damn insulting to Lincoln.

The guy is a dynamite writer with a style all his own. He was playing a Journey song with a particularly soulful solo here--what do you want him to do? Work some tapping and sweep arpeggios in there? How about some country chicken-pickin?

[Jeremey]

The work Lincoln did on FTLOSM, considering his age and maturity as a player and writer at the time, was pretty damned amazing. I consider him a prodigy; since he chose to channel his abilities into a different avenue/genre of music, most of us haven't heard much else from him, but he's maintained a successful solo career for nearly 20 years now. When I hear FTLSOM I hear very little, if anything, that is derivative of Schon's work. Honestly felt that Brewster was a much more progressive and technical player where Schon was more of a melodic and soulful player in that Perry-era Journey material. That being said, he's covering Journey songs in a Perry concert here, so not sure what else he should have been doing on those numbers.

[yandtguy]

While Lincoln shied away from shredding on his early solo albums (though there is still some tasty stuff), his last few have had some flashy guitar playing. I recommend his Today Is The Day album ("Salvation Is Here" or "Let Your Glory Shine" specifically) to get a taste of how his guitar playing has progressed. One thing about Lincoln, he has cleaner, faster runs than Schon. His legato is much better. Of course, if you are turned off by Christian lyrics, you might not enjoy his solo stuff very much.

[yandtguy]

"Salvation Is Here" live:
http://youtu.be/GiL6xqmMQoc

[Gideon]

Watch this lead guitar solo starting at 2:38 and tell me that this didn't piss Neal off when he saw it. Neal wasn't the first to hire a clone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxQsbaBpjto

Comparing Lincoln Brewster to Arnel is pretty damn insulting to Lincoln.

The guy is a dynamite writer with a style all his own. He was playing a Journey song with a particularly soulful solo here--what do you want him to do? Work some tapping and sweep arpeggios in there? How about some country chicken-pickin?

I think Voyager's point is that people bitch about Arnel singing Journey songs the same way as Perry, but Perry didn't exactly break new ground with the Journey covers bar the inclusion of Sam Cooke's "Cupid" in IBAWY.

[Voyager]

The guy is a dynamite writer with a style all his own. He was playing a Journey song with a particularly soulful solo here--what do you want him to do? Work some tapping and sweep arpeggios in there? How about some country chicken-pickin?

I agree. I wasn't commenting negatively on his playing ability, which is amazing. I'm just saying that if Steve can hire a Neal, why was it so wrong for Neal to hire a Steve?

If you listen to Steve's voice at the end of that song you can see why he stopped singing. He knew he couldn't nail those high parts anymore. Without vocal chord surgery, it would have been impossible for him to not go out the hard way like Augeri did.

[Voyager]

I think Voyager's point is that people bitch about Arnel singing Journey songs the same way as Perry, but Perry didn't exactly break new ground with the Journey covers bar the inclusion of Sam Cooke's "Cupid" in IBAWY.

Exactly. People were lamblasting Neal, Jon, Steve Augeri, Arnel, etc. on message boards everywhere for replacing "The Voice" and defending Perry like he was a saint. Remember the attacks on YouTube when Arnel first joined the band? It was crazy the way people were so hateful... but not one harsh word was launched against the vocal god Steve Perry, who had basically been running a "Journey Lite" show on the side whenever he couldn't get his way with Journey members. Remember these days: "What? Ross and Smitty are bitching? Replace them! Get Randy Jackson on the phone! Oh nevermind, I will just replace all of you and go on tour with my Journey Lite band. But don't you dare fracture the Journey name."

[steveo777]

The guy is a dynamite writer with a style all his own. He was playing a Journey song with a particularly soulful solo here--what do you want him to do? Work some tapping and sweep arpeggios in there? How about some country chicken-pickin?

I agree. I wasn't commenting negatively on his playing ability, which is amazing. I'm just saying that if Steve can hire a Neal, why was it so wrong for Neal to hire a Steve?

If you listen to Steve's voice at the end of that song you can see why he stopped singing. He knew he couldn't nail those high parts anymore. Without vocal chord surgery, it would have been impossible for him to not go out the hard way like Augeri did.

Lincoln Brewster rocks......just a really good soul. From all indications he is doing just fine and has a good following. One of Heaven's best guitarists....to my ears. His work was almost the only good thing on the FTLOSM album. Perry was clearly almost shot during that. I'm glad Steve left it when he did, so he can be remembered for his great vocals. He is no pretender and I hope he keeps the treasure chest closed, if he can't do it or doesn't want to.

[Eric]

I think the point is Perry put a band together to play Journey songs on the road before Journey hired a singer to go sing Journey songs on the road.

[Gideon]

I think Voyager's point is that people bitch about Arnel singing Journey songs the same way as Perry, but Perry didn't exactly break new ground with the Journey covers bar the inclusion of Sam Cooke's "Cupid" in IBAWY.

Exactly. People were lamblasting Neal, Jon, Steve Augeri, Arnel, etc. on message boards everywhere for replacing "The Voice" and defending Perry like he was a saint. Remember the attacks on YouTube when Arnel first joined the band? It was crazy the way people were so hateful... but not one harsh word was launched against the vocal god Steve Perry, who had basically been running a "Journey Lite" show on the side whenever he couldn't get his way with Journey members. Remember these days: "What? Ross and Smitty are bitching? Replace them! Get Randy Jackson on the phone! Oh nevermind, I will just replace all of you and go on tour with my Journey Lite band. But don't you dare fracture the Journey name."

This has been one of my chief complaints with SP and the idea that Journey cracked the stone.
In reality, it was SP who cracked the stone. First, by orchestrating the removal of SS and RV. Second, by touring with a Journey cover band doing Journey covers, after claiming to be absolute toast.

As co-creator of those songs, he had the right to do so, but there's no getting around it: the 'stone' was cracked cleanly by Perry twice, then its remnants shattered by the others.

[Jeremey]

I still can't connect the dots that some of you are here - That Perry, by virtue of recording a solo CD and touring behind it, essentially was doing a Journey tribute show with clone players. He made a solo CD that sounded very little like Journey (aside from his voice), and then toured behind it....Can anyone imagine the mayhem that would have ensued had Perry gone on tour and not played any Journey songs? Perry's solo material has never sounded like Journey to me, save the sound of his voice. Calling Brewster a clone of Neal Schon is just wrong - Stylistically he is miles apart from Schon. So the only argument being made here, I guess, is that by playing Journey songs in the style of how they were recorded while doing a solo tour was degrading the name of Journey.

I don't get it, LOL. Perry simply did not write solo material that sounded like "Journey lite," and to criticize him for playing Journey songs while touring to support his solo CD just seems bizarre to me.

RE Perry firing Valory and Smith during Raised On Radio - I still wasn't in that room, and don't know of any here who were either. I do know that Cain and Schon were a part of that decision and while Perry historically gets the blame (as producer of ROR I guess), I think it's just as much of a travesty that Schon and Cain were a part of Raised on Radio at all, LOL, a record that also sounded very little like Journey. But they did wave goodbye to Smitty and Ross and turn around and get on that tour bus and played those songs, and pose for pictures with just the three of them, and go on talk shows and talk about how Journey was now a 3 piece band basically. To me it doesn't make sense to argue that Cain and Schon were just doing what Perry did when they replaced Perry in the band - When they showed 10 years earlier that they were capable of the very same thing by sending Smith and Valory packing. If anything that just shows a reference point ten years prior that Cain and Schon were VERY capable of putting business decisions above the sanctity and integrity of "the stone."

[Eric]

I still can't connect the dots that some of you are here - That Perry, by virtue of recording a solo CD and touring behind it, essentially was doing a Journey tribute show with clone players. He made a solo CD that sounded very little like Journey (aside from his voice), and then toured behind it....Can anyone imagine the mayhem that would have ensued had Perry gone on tour and not played any Journey songs? Perry's solo material has never sounded like Journey to me, save the sound of his voice. Calling Brewster a clone of Neal Schon is just wrong - Stylistically he is miles apart from Schon. So the only argument being made here, I guess, is that by playing Journey songs in the style of how they were recorded while doing a solo tour was degrading the name of Journey.

I don't get it, LOL. Perry simply did not write solo material that sounded like "Journey lite," and to criticize him for playing Journey songs while touring to support his solo CD just seems bizarre to me.

RE Perry firing Valory and Smith during Raised On Radio - I still wasn't in that room, and don't know of any here who were either. I do know that Cain and Schon were a part of that decision and while Perry historically gets the blame (as producer of ROR I guess), I think it's just as much of a travesty that Schon and Cain were a part of Raised on Radio at all, LOL, a record that also sounded very little like Journey. But they did wave goodbye to Smitty and Ross and turn around and get on that tour bus and played those songs, and pose for pictures with just the three of them, and go on talk shows and talk about how Journey was now a 3 piece band basically. To me it doesn't make sense to argue that Cain and Schon were just doing what Perry did when they replaced Perry in the band - When they showed 10 years earlier that they were capable of the very same thing by sending Smith and Valory packing. If anything that just shows a reference point ten years prior that Cain and Schon were VERY capable of putting business decisions above the sanctity and integrity of "the stone."

For the record, I have no problem with him touring and doing Journey songs...just like I don't have a problem with Journey touring and doing Journey songs (can't believe I had to say that). I just don't think Perry put himself in the band's shoes when he criticized them for cracking the stone is all. Journey has toured on new albums themselves. So, what's the difference? Except Journey sound more like Journey than the Perry solo tour did to me, which they should.

[Jeremey]

For the record, I have no problem with him touring and doing Journey songs...just like I don't have a problem with Journey touring and doing Journey songs (can't believe I had to say that). I just don't think Perry put himself in the band's shoes when he criticized them for cracking the stone is all. Journey has toured on new albums themselves. So, what's the difference? Except Journey sound more like Journey than the Perry solo tour did to me, which they should.

I see your point - My interpretation of "cracking the stone" may be different which is why I've butt in here, LOL. I always took it to mean, not that they are cracking the integrity of the name of the band, but that once they "fracture" that partnership between Cain, Perry, and Schon, there's no going back - Meaning, "do you understand that if you move forward, there will never be a time again when we are onstage together as Journey," which I think Perry also elaborated on, saying "there's no going back," or something to that effect.

[KenTheDude]

ROR sounded like a SP solo CD. That's not a bad thing, I like ROR, just making an observation.

[Gideon]

?
FLTOSM wasn't a Journey tribute show, though I think you'd be hard pressed to deny the similarities between Brewster and Schon, regardless of the former's diversity as a solo musician.
The tour, on the other hand, was definitely a tribute to Journey.

With regards to clone players vs. clone singers, the fact is that whatever criticisms can be leveled at modern!Journey for not touring with a singer whose approach differs radically from Perry's can also be leveled at Perry's decision to recruit players who, when playing Journey songs, play them nigh-identically to the members of Journey. I've never been one to actually subscribe to this criticism, since Perry's voice and Journey's musicianship are what defined those songs to begin with and to stray too far from that would change the songs too much for my liking. That said, what's good for the goose is good for the gander and there's no logical reason why both sides shouldn't catch heat if and when this criticism arises. But as with most things, historically, Perry gets a pass.

Lastly, regarding the stone comment, I've always interpreted the stone to be Journey itself. Perry had no compunction about cracking it when it suited his artistic vision nor did he resist temptation to tour with Journey soundalikes when it suited his finances. He cracked the stone first, but again, Perry always gets a pass.

[SF-Dano]

I think the difference is that Perry went out and played Journey tunes on his "Solo" tour. It can be argued that he had to do Journey songs on this tour and it is definitely also valid to argue that with 2 solo albums to draw from and a penchant for doing cover tunes, Perry could have easily provided a show without touching Journey material. He was the first, to my knowledge, to do a full tour outside of the band and feature "Journey" songs. Did he have the right? I suppose so. Should he have, when in the future he was going to be so critical of the other band memebers in their desire to move forward? I can only come up with an answer of NO.

At the time of this video, Neal had gotten back with Gregg and was doing the Abraxas Pool thing with other former Santana cast outs. In fact, both groups were playing San Francisco on the same night. Perry's at the Warfield I believe, and Abraxas at the Filmore. Neal and Gregg could have very well played a few Journey songs also, yet they did not. For what ever reason, I do not know, but that is a fact. I was there. This can all be argued forever by fans (and has been) as to who was right and who was wrong, and who did what to whom. However, Perry's comment of "Don't crack the stone" at the time he made it was highly hypocritical.

[Michigan Girl]

For the record, I have no problem with him touring and doing Journey songs...just like I don't have a problem with Journey touring and doing Journey songs (can't believe I had to say that). I just don't think Perry put himself in the band's shoes when he criticized them for cracking the stone is all. Journey has toured on new albums themselves. So, what's the difference? Except Journey sound more like Journey than the Perry solo tour did to me, which they should.

I see your point - My interpretation of "cracking the stone" may be different which is why I've butt in here, LOL. I always took it to mean, not that they are cracking the integrity of the name of the band, but that once they "fracture" that partnership between Cain, Perry, and Schon, there's no going back - Meaning, "do you understand that if you move forward, there will never be a time again when we are onstage together as Journey," which I think Perry also elaborated on, saying "there's no going back," or something to that effect.

I'm w/you, Jeremey ...
it wasn't about any one of them singing/playing Journey music ...it was being Journey w/out him.
Not really a hard thing to figure out. I've never understood why anyone would think it was about singing
the songs ...

[Eric]

For the record, I have no problem with him touring and doing Journey songs...just like I don't have a problem with Journey touring and doing Journey songs (can't believe I had to say that). I just don't think Perry put himself in the band's shoes when he criticized them for cracking the stone is all. Journey has toured on new albums themselves. So, what's the difference? Except Journey sound more like Journey than the Perry solo tour did to me, which they should.

I see your point - My interpretation of "cracking the stone" may be different which is why I've butt in here, LOL. I always took it to mean, not that they are cracking the integrity of the name of the band, but that once they "fracture" that partnership between Cain, Perry, and Schon, there's no going back - Meaning, "do you understand that if you move forward, there will never be a time again when we are onstage together as Journey," which I think Perry also elaborated on, saying "there's no going back," or something to that effect.

I gotcha...some of us may have misunderstood his statement.

[Don]

Even Gregg plays a few Journey tunes now when he tours. All water under the bridge.
The licensing success of DSB and other songs over the last few years in TV and films (over 10 million Disney DVDs sold over the last two years have featured Journey music) and what not seems to have tempered some of the rhetoric of who did what.
All the players seem pretty happy at this point with what they created three decades ago and with the exception of a few interviews it's all been good the last year or so when it comes to giving each other praise for the magic that was created back in the day.

[maverick218]

ROR sounded like a SP solo CD. That's not a bad thing, I like ROR, just making an observation.

I totally agree with you about sounding like a solo CD. The songs that I listen to today from ROR are the ones that are "Journeyesque"...

[Red13JoePa]

They should all be allowed to play they want.

It is funny that Cain said perry barred him from the building or something when Cain tried to show up to see him at a San Francisco FTLOSM stop.

[Michigan Girl]

Even Gregg plays a few Journey tunes now when he tours. All water under the bridge.
The licensing success of DSB and other songs over the last few years in TV and films (over 10 million Disney DVDs sold over the last two years have featured Journey music) and what not seems to have tempered some of the rhetoric of who did what.
All the players seem pretty happy at this point with what they created three decades ago and with the exception of a few interviews it's all been good the last year or so when it comes to giving each other praise for the magic that was created back in the day.

Absolutely ...

[Gideon]

I think the difference is that Perry went out and played Journey tunes on his "Solo" tour. It can be argued that he had to do Journey songs on this tour and it is definitely also valid to argue that with 2 solo albums to draw from and a penchant for doing cover tunes, Perry could have easily provided a show without touching Journey material. He was the first, to my knowledge, to do a full tour outside of the band and feature "Journey" songs. Did he have the right? I suppose so. Should he have, when in the future he was going to be so critical of the other band memebers in their desire to move forward? I can only come up with an answer of NO.

At the time of this video, Neal had gotten back with Gregg and was doing the Abraxas Pool thing with other former Santana cast outs. In fact, both groups were playing San Francisco on the same night. Perry's at the Warfield I believe, and Abraxas at the Filmore. Neal and Gregg could have very well played a few Journey songs also, yet they did not. For what ever reason, I do not know, but that is a fact. I was there. This can all be argued forever by fans (and has been) as to who was right and who was wrong, and who did what to whom. However, Perry's comment of "Don't crack the stone" at the time he made it was highly hypocritical.

+1

[Jeremey]

Again, I think it's just the way you interpret the phrase "don't crack the stone." where I take it to mean "If you carry on under the Journey name without me, there is no going back - we will never perform together as Journey again," some may interpret it to mean "don't use another singer and play Journey songs," in which case yes, Perry did play Journey songs on his solo tour with other guitar/keyboard players etc.

I think it's a big distinction though, but we will have to agree to disagree

[Navarro]

?
FLTOSM wasn't a Journey tribute show, though I think you'd be hard pressed to deny the similarities between Brewster and Schon, regardless of the former's diversity as a solo musician.
The tour, on the other hand, was definitely a tribute to Journey.


I was at the FLOSM show in Buffalo in 1995. I was lucky. It was a good show for SP and I certainly wouldn't call it a tribute show. At least half of what he played was off his two solo albums. I am glad he played the Journey tunes. In a different key or not, I finally got to see the man himself sing Journey tunes. As far as LB, he was doing his job imitating NS on the Journey stuff. His playing on FTLOSM is definitely not Schon cloning. Some of his playing is closer to Petrucci than Schon.

[steveo777]

Again, I think it's just the way you interpret the phrase "don't crack the stone." where I take it to mean "If you carry on under the Journey name without me, there is no going back - we will never perform together as Journey again," some may interpret it to mean "don't use another singer and play Journey songs," in which case yes, Perry did play Journey songs on his solo tour with other guitar/keyboard players etc.

I think it's a big distinction though, but we will have to agree to disagree

I think Perry was the one out of line for telling them "don't crack the stone", afterall, he is the one who left. My feeling is he shouldn't be giving directives that would determine the future of a band he left. (twice) There were four of them to think of, who still wanted to work and make a living.

[Don]

Over the last few years, the general public is favorable towards Perry and Schon as far as the press is concerned. Neal had tried to beat a dead horse about past events a few times during the initial Eclipse interviews but that got him nowhere.
Perry, meanwhile has successfully ingratiated himself with the Glee Demographic and what happened in Journey's past means nothing to those fans.
DSB has in essence become so much bigger than the creators of the song themselves and became its own brand versus being just a small component in the Journey canon that old band-mate squabbles are no longer relevant at this point.

[Jeremey]

Again, I think it's just the way you interpret the phrase "don't crack the stone." where I take it to mean "If you carry on under the Journey name without me, there is no going back - we will never perform together as Journey again," some may interpret it to mean "don't use another singer and play Journey songs," in which case yes, Perry did play Journey songs on his solo tour with other guitar/keyboard players etc.

I think it's a big distinction though, but we will have to agree to disagree

I think Perry was the one out of line for telling them "don't crack the stone", afterall, he is the one who left. My feeling is he shouldn't be giving directives that would determine the future of a band he left. (twice) There were four of them to think of, who still wanted to work and make a living.

I see your point but again I believe Perry simply meant "don't use the name Journey, or there will never be a chance for us to share a stage again." not that he was forbidding them to do it, he definitely "allowed" the band to continue without him, and didn't mount any legal campaigns to stop them. I don't really even recall an instance of him being critical of the band (aside from generally ignoring them). Just that, hey if you do this you are permanently closing the door on any future there may have been. With regard to the original post tho, I still don't think Lincoln Brewster is a Neal clone. Perry found a guitarist very different in style and approach than Schon, very similar to what people have observed about JSS not being a Perry clone.

[Ritchie]

Again, I think it's just the way you interpret the phrase "don't crack the stone." where I take it to mean "If you carry on under the Journey name without me, there is no going back - we will never perform together as Journey again," some may interpret it to mean "don't use another singer and play Journey songs," in which case yes, Perry did play Journey songs on his solo tour with other guitar/keyboard players etc.

I think it's a big distinction though, but we will have to agree to disagree

I think Perry was the one out of line for telling them "don't crack the stone", afterall, he is the one who left. My feeling is he shouldn't be giving directives that would determine the future of a band he left. (twice) There were four of them to think of, who still wanted to work and make a living.

I see your point but again I believe Perry simply meant "don't use the name Journey, or there will never be a chance for us to share a stage again." not that he was forbidding them to do it, he definitely "allowed" the band to continue without him, and didn't mount any legal campaigns to stop them. I don't really even recall an instance of him being critical of the band (aside from generally ignoring them). Just that, hey if you do this you are permanently closing the door on any future there may have been. With regard to the original post tho, I still don't think Lincoln Brewster is a Neal clone. Perry found a guitarist very different in style and approach than Schon, very similar to what people have observed about JSS not being a Perry clone.

If an artists job is to stay true to the original music he will do so ,and Lincoln Brewster did an outstanding job covering those Journey songs on the FTLOSM tour.
To call him a clone is an insult just as it is an insult to call Arnel a clone...because he does exactly the same... staying true to the originals.