So.....

[RyanHippFTW]

The band is coming to town two weeks from Wednesday and they've already dropped City Of Hope and Never Walk Away. Thanks guys.

[Yoda]

The band is coming to town two weeks from Wednesday and they've already dropped City Of Hope and Never Walk Away. Thanks guys.

You live in the Piedmont Triad of NC?

[RyanHippFTW]

yes, why?

[Yoda]

yes, why?

I just know they're heading to Greensboro on the 3rd. Me and a few friends are supposed to be heading to the concert.

[RyanHippFTW]

oh, cool dooood be on the look out for the tall, creepy looking ginger

[scarab]

dropping City of Hope is the best thing this band has done since getting JSS.
The worst song from Eclipse and releasing it over some more radio friendly, killed the CD.

[Monker]

dropping City of Hope is the best thing this band has done since getting JSS.
The worst song from Eclipse and releasing it over some more radio friendly, killed the CD.

What killed the CD is Revolution being retro and nostalgic and Eclipse trying to be modern. Journey alienated their audience, all of them. Journey will never have another successful new CD because of it....if they ever do have another CD of new music.

"City of Hope" is NOT that bad of a song. It seems to me that if it were released on Arrival with Augeri singing it, you'd probably like it.

[Ehwmatt]

dropping City of Hope is the best thing this band has done since getting JSS.
The worst song from Eclipse and releasing it over some more radio friendly, killed the CD.

Yeah, you're not missing anything by missing the City of Hope.

[kgdjpubs]

dropping City of Hope is the best thing this band has done since getting JSS.
The worst song from Eclipse and releasing it over some more radio friendly, killed the CD.

What killed the CD is Revolution being retro and nostalgic and Eclipse trying to be modern. Journey alienated their audience, all of them.

You're probably right here. Honestly, I think Eclipse is a good cd. I enjoyed it when it came out, and still find a lot of stuff to like on that cd. That said, it's as much of a departure from "classic Journey" as Raised on Radio was....just in the opposite direction.

The better option for Journey's sake was to follow the Journey formula, expand on what worked on Revelation and push towards Arnel's strong points, and see what happens. When you are trying to make a comeback, the plan of attack is not to go experimental as the follow-up to the first commercially successful cd that you've had in years.

[Gideon]

I doubt the CD was ever going to do well; too eclectic in a lot of ways and, as every review under the sun noted, oriented for musicians rather than the standard fan.
That said, had they actually bothered to promote the thing and put RESONATE front and center, I'm convinced it would have done a lot better commercially.

Though that really isn't saying much, now is it?

Great album, gets as much spins on my iPod as Frontiers and TBF.

[RyanHippFTW]

But ya see City Of Hope is one of my favorites off Eclipse, and even if they didn't do that one seeing a show on The Eclipse Tour I'm hoping to hear something off of that album. And I love Never Walk Away too. So, yeah, this kinda blows.

[Aaron]

Monker,

Nice analysis and I couldn't agree more. Revelation was a decent effort but not as rocking as I expected.

Eclipse was a total turd. Neal was pandering to the "modern" crowd with detuning and it sucked.

I'd vote Journey go back to their roots, focus on vocals, good hooks and great riffs and quit pandering to what they think the audience wants. Follow in Night Ranger's footsteps and get back to your roots with a great, straight forward cd (and yes NR kicked your ass in Indy on the last tour. They kicked your ASS) like Somewhere in California.

dropping City of Hope is the best thing this band has done since getting JSS.
The worst song from Eclipse and releasing it over some more radio friendly, killed the CD.

What killed the CD is Revolution being retro and nostalgic and Eclipse trying to be modern. Journey alienated their audience, all of them. Journey will never have another successful new CD because of it....if they ever do have another CD of new music.

"City of Hope" is NOT that bad of a song. It seems to me that if it were released on Arrival with Augeri singing it, you'd probably like it.

[slucero]

Monker,

Nice analysis and I couldn't agree more. Revelation was a decent effort but not as rocking as I expected.

Eclipse was a total turd. Neal was pandering to the "modern" crowd with detuning and it sucked.

I'd vote Journey go back to their roots, focus on vocals, good hooks and great riffs and quit pandering to what they think the audience wants. Follow in Night Ranger's footsteps and get back to your roots with a great, straight forward cd (and yes NR kicked your ass in Indy on the last tour. They kicked your ASS) like Somewhere in California.

dropping City of Hope is the best thing this band has done since getting JSS.
The worst song from Eclipse and releasing it over some more radio friendly, killed the CD.

What killed the CD is Revolution being retro and nostalgic and Eclipse trying to be modern. Journey alienated their audience, all of them. Journey will never have another successful new CD because of it....if they ever do have another CD of new music.

"City of Hope" is NOT that bad of a song. It seems to me that if it were released on Arrival with Augeri singing it, you'd probably like it.

Never happen... They'd need a 3rd writer, and their only hope of that is outside writers.. which when they use one.. like Blades.. deliver good material.. but it still isn't the same as a whole album with the cohesive witing genius of JC/SP/NS....

Sad to say those days are over.

[Aaron]

I agree with you man. They need a third writer in the mix to drive back to that magic they had. I think Perry/Schon/Rolie was better than Perry/Schon/Cain. They need something else in the mix to be great again.

I have a ton of respect for Mac and his reviews. I think Eclipse was a huge POS. NR's Somewhere in California was one of the best cd's of the decade. Journey need to come up with a similar approach to deserve a 100 from Mac. Eclipse was pure pandering to the current flavor of the day. It sucked!

Monker,

Nice analysis and I couldn't agree more. Revelation was a decent effort but not as rocking as I expected.

Eclipse was a total turd. Neal was pandering to the "modern" crowd with detuning and it sucked.

I'd vote Journey go back to their roots, focus on vocals, good hooks and great riffs and quit pandering to what they think the audience wants. Follow in Night Ranger's footsteps and get back to your roots with a great, straight forward cd (and yes NR kicked your ass in Indy on the last tour. They kicked your ASS) like Somewhere in California.

dropping City of Hope is the best thing this band has done since getting JSS.
The worst song from Eclipse and releasing it over some more radio friendly, killed the CD.

What killed the CD is Revolution being retro and nostalgic and Eclipse trying to be modern. Journey alienated their audience, all of them. Journey will never have another successful new CD because of it....if they ever do have another CD of new music.

"City of Hope" is NOT that bad of a song. It seems to me that if it were released on Arrival with Augeri singing it, you'd probably like it.

Never happen... They'd need a 3rd writer, and their only hope of that is outside writers.. which when they use one.. like Blades.. deliver good material.. but it still isn't the same as a whole album with the cohesive witing genius of JC/SP/NS....

Sad to say those days are over.

[slucero]

Eclipse was a well recorded, well mixed album.

But the songs just plain old sucked.

[Gideon]

Perry probably brought something to the writing table melodically and structurally, but lyrically? They're doing just fine without him; I can't remember anything written by Perry that was as mature or ambitious as TWIMC.

[slucero]

Perry probably brought something to the writing table melodically and structurally, but lyrically? They're doing just fine without him; I can't remember anything written by Perry that was as mature or ambitious as TWIMC.

I think Cain said it best in this interview.... http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2009/au ... n-journey/

McKinneyNews.net: You and Steve Perry penned many of the famous songs. What was that relationship like?

Cain: We liked writing hit records. He said to me that he got a genuine high hearing his voice on the radio. Our goal was getting our music on the radio and to the people. We wanted it played over and over again. There’s nothing more intoxicating. Radio really was king back then. When we wrote singles, we tried to construct songs that would last. Steve’s voice was in its prime. I was sort of the middle man, the guy who would take Neal’s [Neal Schon – guitarist] rock-n-roll ideas – I would sift through Neal’s ideas and present them to Steve in a more nuanced way. Neal had a lot of melody in his head – unstructured melody ideas. [Neal and Steve] were on the same page a lot of the time, but I think there was some stuff that wasn’t totally getting translated. Neal had more progressive stuff that he wanted to do that Steve probably didn’t know what to do with. I made suggestions that helped things click. It’s funny. I was hired to bring an edge to the band, but ironically I brought the love songs. But one of Steve’s main things was to sing more ballads. He loves singing ballads. Bringing me into the band sort of turbo-charged things. It added another element, another musical mind. I think I enhanced the band, made it deeper.

McKinneyNews.net: I remember hearing "Open Arms" on the radio. That song really seemed to propel Journey into the radio stratosphere. Every thirty minutes somebody was playing it.

Cain: I had the melody and chorus to "Open Arms" finished before I joined the band. It needed lyrics for the verses. I took it to Steve’s house and Steve listened to it and we finished it that day. I had to transpose the song about four steps up. Steve brought "Who’s Crying Now" – that was his idea – over to my house. We wrote that in an afternoon. There was sort of this chemistry that clicked. I had no idea that I would be clicking with Steve and Neal like I was. This wasn’t an accident. You wait a whole lifetime for something like that. Playing in Journey for me was like flying with the Blue Angels. There was a lot of trust. Neal trusted me with his stuff. Steve trusted me with his stuff. And I trusted them. They gave me confidence. I learned to find that swagger which I still walk with because of the caliber of talent that was already in place when I joined the band.

McKinneyNews.net: Many, if not most, of the songwriting credits are attributed to either you and Steve Perry or you and Perry and Schon. Was it pretty much an equal songwriting partnership or did any one of you provide the lion’s share of ideas?

Cain: I don’t think you can quantify songwriting contributions. "Don’t Stop Believin'" – I brought in the title and the end piece and certainly the lyrics. I did a lot but it wasn’t without sitting there with Steve. We wrote together. There was a lot of arranging we did together. Neal brought the fire and the rock-n-roll attitude you want to have in a rock-n-roll band. Without the three of us, it just wasn’t Journey. "Stone In Love" was Neal’s idea. He had a different chorus pinned on it and Steve and I couldn’t find anything – a melody – to sing over it. So we changed it. Neal was miffed. But then after he heard it he decided it was cool. The writing was like that. You’ve got to be able to listen to others’ input and give some things up. But then again, there are times when you’ve got to stick up for your own ideas.

McKinneyNews.net: What about "Faithfully?" That was your song, right?

Cain: Yeah. It was a road song I wrote in Saratoga Springs, New York. That one began on the tour bus on a napkin. I took it to the hotel room and finished it up the next morning. I had this cheap Casio keyboard in the room and plunked around on it. I took it to sound check and thought it was a pretty good song. We – the crew and everybody, there was something like 70 of us on tour – we were all missing our families and I wrote it for everybody. I recorded a demo and played it for Steve and he wanted it for his solo record. I told him the song was about me and Journey, not about his solo record. Later, when we were recording Frontiers, the producer asked me if I had a ballad and I pulled out this song. And Steve was like, “Oh, that song.” Steve put his brand of special magic on it. We did three takes. We never even rehearsed the darn thing. It took about 40 minutes to write, honest to God. Not many of them came that easily. It’s funny. You got to live your life and feel the feelings and identify them. If you can do that, it just flows.

[The Sushi Hunter]

If Perry is a good lyrics writer but the voice is completely shot, why isn't he at least writing lyrics anymore for another band or artist?

As for that article posted above, I'd love to hear the Stone In Love chorus before they changed it, just out of sheer curiosity really.

[Pelata]

Eclipse was a well recorded, well mixed album.

But the songs just plain old sucked.

They needed a producer to trim the fat (ie; Neal's over-soloing)...boil those songs down to 3-4 minutes each and they'd be a lot better.

[slucero]

If Perry is a good lyrics writer but the voice is completely shot, why isn't he at least writing lyrics anymore for another band or artist?

Based on Perry's actions (or inaction):

Maybe the chemistry he had with Cain and Schon was "it" for him.... he wasn't interested in writing collaboration after his solo career....
Maybe Perry isn't interested in writing for other artists..
Maybe he's just retired..

[slucero]

Eclipse was a well recorded, well mixed album.

But the songs just plain old sucked.

They needed a producer to trim the fat (ie; Neal's over-soloing)...boil those songs down to 3-4 minutes each and they'd be a lot better.

Shirley tried to do that.... but Schon shot him down...

[kgdjpubs]

I have a ton of respect for Mac and his reviews. I think Eclipse was a huge POS. NR's Somewhere in California was one of the best cd's of the decade. Journey need to come up with a similar approach to deserve a 100 from Mac. Eclipse was pure pandering to the current flavor of the day. It sucked!

Ya know, I don't think that Journey needs to put out a big stadium rock album to deserve a 100% rating. I don't think Eclipse is a 100% cd by any stretch, but I was ok with the style and songs. Honestly, I think it's pretty good, although it's obvious that they would lose a lot of fans by going down that route. It's certainly not the 80s regurgitation safe album that Revelation was. Commercial viableness in the current marketplace notwithstanding, I'd prefer to hear a band take some chances and evolve their sound a bit rather than spitting out duplicates of the same album over and over again. Take any 3 albums in the Journey catalog, and they don't sound alike. Change should be expected with this band.

I'll be the first to admit that the scores on Andrew's reviews have risen over the past several years, and a shoe-in for a 100% now used to get about a 90-94%. I believe the original intent was to take into account the production, but the best-produced cd with bad songs is still a bad cd. Likewise, good songs horribly recorded are still good songs. I can understand taking points away from a bad production, but not adding to them. Either way, the current system leaves no room at all for the all-time-classic, whenever that happens to come around. Of course, it would be a gargantuan mess to "fix" it now, so it stands as is.

Either way, style shouldn't determine the rating. I've got some big stadium rock cds that I thought were done very well. I've also got some introspective cds done by stadium rock bands that I like just as much, if not more, than the big rock cd. In the end, it's the songs, and the style itself shouldn't matter in assigning the rating.

[The Sushi Hunter]

If Perry is a good lyrics writer but the voice is completely shot, why isn't he at least writing lyrics anymore for another band or artist?

Based on Perry's actions (or inaction):

Maybe the chemistry he had with Cain and Schon was "it" for him.... he wasn't interested in writing collaboration after his solo career....
Maybe Perry isn't interested in writing for other artists..
Maybe he's just retired..

Could be, however everyone's first love is very hard to quit regardless of the circumstance.

[Monker]

If Perry is a good lyrics writer but the voice is completely shot, why isn't he at least writing lyrics anymore for another band or artist?

Based on Perry's actions (or inaction):

Maybe the chemistry he had with Cain and Schon was "it" for him.... he wasn't interested in writing collaboration after his solo career....
Maybe Perry isn't interested in writing for other artists..
Maybe he's just retired..

Based on the catalog, both Journey's preCain and Perry's solo, he is a very mediocre songwriter, both lyrics and music, and needs somebody to collaborate with to make great songs.

[Monker]

Eclipse was a well recorded, well mixed album.

But the songs just plain old sucked.

They needed a producer to trim the fat (ie; Neal's over-soloing)...boil those songs down to 3-4 minutes each and they'd be a lot better.

I would agree with that...but it's not just Neal. Jonathan has some instrumental bits that are way too long or unnecessary as well...especially in the intros.

But, the problem with Eclipse is not the songs. The problem is nobody wants a modern version of Journey any longer. They turned their back on those fans with Revelation and I don't see them coming back now.

[Monker]

I think the 'pandering' happened with Revelation. Being a nostalgia band was never what Neal wanted Journey to be from the time they got back together Augeri, until Revelation. Revelation was simply a money grab with the band catering to what Wal-mart wanted...but, I do NOT believe that is what Neal wanted. Well, OK, he wanted the money. He ALWAYS follows the $'s. But, what he wanted for the band was not to be a nostalgia act.

What Neal has always wanted was to move past 1986 and bring the band into today's rock scene with new music. So, I see Eclipse as Neal's rebuttal to the success of Revelation. The problem is he alienated those fans who wanted a modern Journey by constantly saying Journey was all about the retro sound. That is why Arnel was hired...not because he brought in anything new, but because he could sing like Steve Perry. That is why they recorded Revelation. That is why the rerecordings were done...because Journey was all for capitalizing on being retro. The backlash was, and is, all those fans that stuck with the band through the Augeri years and even Soto year no longer care so much. That is why Eclipse failed. This is not the sound the retro crowd wants, and the "modern Journey" crowd have mostly moved on. So, all you have are those who buy the CD for the Journey name alone.

If Eclipse has been released instead of Revelation, I think you would see a completely different Journey then you have today. It would be a lot easier to release new music with a modern sound.

As for what Journey should do now, I don't think it really matters. They are a nostalgia band....a popular one. But, that is all they will be until the band breaks up.

Monker,

Nice analysis and I couldn't agree more. Revelation was a decent effort but not as rocking as I expected.

Eclipse was a total turd. Neal was pandering to the "modern" crowd with detuning and it sucked.

I'd vote Journey go back to their roots, focus on vocals, good hooks and great riffs and quit pandering to what they think the audience wants. Follow in Night Ranger's footsteps and get back to your roots with a great, straight forward cd (and yes NR kicked your ass in Indy on the last tour. They kicked your ASS) like Somewhere in California.

dropping City of Hope is the best thing this band has done since getting JSS.
The worst song from Eclipse and releasing it over some more radio friendly, killed the CD.

What killed the CD is Revolution being retro and nostalgic and Eclipse trying to be modern. Journey alienated their audience, all of them. Journey will never have another successful new CD because of it....if they ever do have another CD of new music.

"City of Hope" is NOT that bad of a song. It seems to me that if it were released on Arrival with Augeri singing it, you'd probably like it.

[Monker]

dropping City of Hope is the best thing this band has done since getting JSS.
The worst song from Eclipse and releasing it over some more radio friendly, killed the CD.

What killed the CD is Revolution being retro and nostalgic and Eclipse trying to be modern. Journey alienated their audience, all of them.

You're probably right here. Honestly, I think Eclipse is a good cd. I enjoyed it when it came out, and still find a lot of stuff to like on that cd. That said, it's as much of a departure from "classic Journey" as Raised on Radio was....just in the opposite direction.

The better option for Journey's sake was to follow the Journey formula, expand on what worked on Revelation and push towards Arnel's strong points, and see what happens. When you are trying to make a comeback, the plan of attack is not to go experimental as the follow-up to the first commercially successful cd that you've had in years.

EXACTLY....I agree with everything you said.

I think Revelation was a mistake....even if it was successful and made them tons of money. It was not the future Neal wanted...and therefore, it really killed any FUTURE success.

The other point is, if they had continued down the path of Revelation, I doubt Neal would have ever been happy. Playing a bunch of pop songs is not what Neal wants to do. It would have been like continuing down the path of ROR. It's just not musically fulfilling for Neal. He would have been looking for another Soul Sirkus. Maybe he would be in Chickenfoot.

[The Sushi Hunter]

Eclipse was a well recorded, well mixed album.

But the songs just plain old sucked.

They needed a producer to trim the fat (ie; Neal's over-soloing)...boil those songs down to 3-4 minutes each and they'd be a lot better.

I would agree with that...but it's not just Neal. Jonathan has some instrumental bits that are way too long or unnecessary as well...especially in the intros.

But, the problem with Eclipse is not the songs. The problem is nobody wants a modern version of Journey any longer. They turned their back on those fans with Revelation and I don't see them coming back now.

Sign of the times. Everything changes including music as well. If the music they are creating keeps them on the board throughout the progression of the eras, I'd say they are doing what it takes to keep the band moving forward. When the masses continuously changing, so does the music if they wish to remain competative. Nothing personal, it's just part of the entertainment industry.

Precisely why this scene is so special (and true):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1i5coU-0_Q

[slucero]

If Perry is a good lyrics writer but the voice is completely shot, why isn't he at least writing lyrics anymore for another band or artist?

Based on Perry's actions (or inaction):

Maybe the chemistry he had with Cain and Schon was "it" for him.... he wasn't interested in writing collaboration after his solo career....
Maybe Perry isn't interested in writing for other artists..
Maybe he's just retired..

Based on the catalog, both Journey's preCain and Perry's solo, he is a very mediocre songwriter, both lyrics and music, and needs somebody to collaborate with to make great songs.

I can agree that what makes Perry a good (not great) songwriter is collaboration. Same to some degree for Cain with Journey. Outside of Journey Cain has done well as a songwriter for other artists... Perry is absent in that regard.

[kgdjpubs]

If Eclipse has been released instead of Revelation, I think you would see a completely different Journey then you have today. It would be a lot easier to release new music with a modern sound.

let me change that....

If Eclipse has been released instead of Arrival, I think you would see a completely different Journey then you have today. If you were going to make the change, the time to do it was the first cd without Perry. I don't think it would have worked then any better than it did now, but 14 years later you are stuck with the classic sound and it's too little too late. You can either try to capture the Journey fanbase and give them what they want (Arrival, Revelation) with some amount of success, or you go experimental with questionable results (see everything else released).

In the end, it's either playing safe and maybe you get back to a solid headliner, or you go experimental and you are stuck on 80s-band-revival packages. There's simply no way of knowing how a reasonable followup to Revelation would have sold. I doubt it would have been any worse than where they are now.