MR

For those of you who sing professionally (Pelata, Jeremey, Slucero?, etc.), is Arnel's voice toast at this point? It's pitchy as hell; not quite at Augeri levels, but I'm curious what you all think can be done (if anything).

I don't think he's toast.. but I think he's not long for touring Journey songs.. Journey singer history illustrates that he's suffering the same effects any singer would having to tour the DD at his age..

Remember Perry sang and toured Journey at the following ages:

Infinity - age 29
Evolution - age 30
Departure - age 31
Escape - age 32
Frontiers - age 34
ROR - age 37

And sang but did not tour:

TBF - age 47


Augeri departed at 47


Arnel has been touring these songs regularly since age 40, and now at age 46 is in the prime range for issues..

Assume, then, that you are Journey's manager. How would you enable them to tour w/ Arnel and not burn him out in 6 months or a year?

Gideon wrote:Assume, then, that you are Journey's manager. How would you enable them to tour w/ Arnel and not burn him out in 6 months or a year?

More rest between gigs. No more than 3 gigs per week and no back to backs or 3 consecutives. Everyone hates this but original key performances, for Arnel's vocal health, would be eliminated, except for a few occasions per year. I think most people expect that Journey will probably hang it up after 2015, so no need to try and rebuild the band again with a new singer.

I'm no singer. But I think you're all hearing that which you want to hear.
Arnel sounds great to me.

The guy's been there for five years. You've rung out every ounce of sob story material out of this particular hire.
You've cancelled shows, altered your touring schedule the last few years. You've scheduled places specifically because of the ethnicity of your singer ( two being Guam and Manila which sort of blew up in their faces this year). You've stepped down the music.
Journey has done enough for this guy. No need to baby him along anymore. He's lost his luster with his hometown crowd, he's not the third writer you might have wished him to be (though, there never was much chance of that happening to begin with). Enough already, stop making concessions.
Just tour as usual until people stop buying tickets and that is when you will know it's time to hang it up. If Arnel can go another five years, all the power to him. If he blows his voice out in two months, you've had a great 40 year run.
Don't tinker with the shows. Last time you did that shit, You ended up giving your singer (and the one after him) big settlement checks to go away and keep their mouths shut.
Do you really want to go out like that?

Gideon wrote:Assume, then, that you are Journey's manager. How would you enable them to tour w/ Arnel and not burn him out in 6 months or a year?

the only choice is fewer shows, with more rest in-between.. but that may not be economically viable...

slucero wrote:

Gideon wrote:Assume, then, that you are Journey's manager. How would you enable them to tour w/ Arnel and not burn him out in 6 months or a year?

the only choice is fewer shows, with more rest in-between.. but that may not be economically viable...

They've been doing three or at the most four shows a week for the last two tours. They've stepped down the songs. I mean, what else can they do? Their opening acts couldn't survive financially on a schedule slower than that.

That's why no new, younger band wants to tour with these guys, they're already maintaining an AARP pace as it is on the road.

Even if they do 80 shows, they're stretching it over a 200 day period.

Listen to his old youtube video's before he joined Journey. His voice was messed up back then too!

LookthruGlass wrote:Listen to his old youtube video's before he joined Journey. His voice was messed up back then too!

Huh? He wasn't even a trained vocalist then. Once Journey's vocal coaches helped him, he sounded better at 41 years old than Perry did at 37.

Here's the shows totals year by year.. SP and AP..

slucero wrote:Here's the shows totals year by year.. SP and AP..

Can you ad the shows that Augeri did?

Gideon wrote:For those of you who sing professionally (Pelata, Jeremey, Slucero?, etc.), is Arnel's voice toast at this point? It's pitchy as hell; not quite at Augeri levels, but I'm curious what you all think can be done (if anything).

Augeri was WAY worse live and much sooner. His pitch and power was a constant issue from day 1. Sorry, but it's a fact. I always say after making statements like that how much I liked the guy. His recorded stuff was great with Journey. Live, I didn't think he had the stamina.

With Arnel, I'm not hearing much pitchiness and I'm not hearing any roughness. No more pitchiness than a lot of live singers and no roughness at all really. However, I am hearing much different pronunciation than before. A much more darker sound. Not sure what that's about unless it's just vowel modification to make things easier on him, but that's not what I'm hearing there. If you look at a guy like Freddie Mercury- his live shows were super pitchy and he ALWAYS ducked the high notes. And yet, he was a brilliant singer.

As far as touring places based on his nationality- geez, why not? There's money to be made, might as well do it.
On Manilla backing off of him, I think that had more to do with the timing and promotion of that show. It really remains to be seen what that was all about.

Everyone here is so quick to say he's done. You guys have been saying the same thing since day one. He's not going anywhere. To the poster above who said "You're hearing what you want to hear"- I agree with that.

He has cancelled shows, but you guys know the crap that's going around the US. EVERYBODY has it. Ever tried to sing with that crap in your lungs? It ain't easy. Better to cancel then to go out and do irreparable harm to the band's rep and Arnel's voice.

yulog wrote:

slucero wrote:Here's the shows totals year by year.. SP and AP..

Can you ad the shows that Augeri did?

I'd love to.. if I could find a listing of them to use..

brywool wrote:

Gideon wrote:For those of you who sing professionally (Pelata, Jeremey, Slucero?, etc.), is Arnel's voice toast at this point? It's pitchy as hell; not quite at Augeri levels, but I'm curious what you all think can be done (if anything).

Augeri was WAY worse live and much sooner. His pitch and power was a constant issue from day 1. Sorry, but it's a fact. I always say after making statements like that how much I liked the guy. His recorded stuff was great with Journey. Live, I didn't think he had the stamina.

I know I'm repeating myself, but when I saw Augeri in '98 and '99 he was dead on and damn near perfect all night. In '98, they played 20+ songs and even at the end of the encore he was kicking ass.

So, I don't know how accurate "Day 1" is...I do know he hit a wall afterwards...which sucks AND which I think could have been avoided or corrected without kicking him to the curb...but I digress.

Pelata wrote:

brywool wrote:

Gideon wrote:For those of you who sing professionally (Pelata, Jeremey, Slucero?, etc.), is Arnel's voice toast at this point? It's pitchy as hell; not quite at Augeri levels, but I'm curious what you all think can be done (if anything).

Augeri was WAY worse live and much sooner. His pitch and power was a constant issue from day 1. Sorry, but it's a fact. I always say after making statements like that how much I liked the guy. His recorded stuff was great with Journey. Live, I didn't think he had the stamina.

I know I'm repeating myself, but when I saw Augeri in '98 and '99 he was dead on and damn near perfect all night. In '98, they played 20+ songs and even at the end of the encore he was kicking ass.

So, I don't know how accurate "Day 1" is...I do know he hit a wall afterwards...which sucks AND which I think could have been avoided or corrected without kicking him to the curb...but I digress.

When I saw Augeri at the gorge in 98(?), he was pitchy and I remember when he did the money notes in DSB (the high B) he did them with airy and weak FALSETTO. Not head voice. FALSETTO. Having said that, it's a tough gig, probably the toughest gig for a rock singer. But I know what I saw that night and I know what I've heard on bootlegs and seen on videos ever since. Trust me, I followed the guy, just like I have each consecutive singer. Even on those early recordings, there was power missing from his delivery. Some guys have big voices (JSS is one- though his voice was too big for Journey) and there are guys that have a much more subtle approach going (Perry, Arnel, and Augueri fall into this camp). SA had a difficult time in the band live and it's too bad. Had he had a little more power and resilience, he'd have been great, but he just didn't. Arnel is the better singer of the two. His voice is more powerful. He's more consistent. His pitch is better. He seems to have more technique going for him than SA did. That's my perception, you may see it differently. You're allowed.

I'm surprised you don't hear struggle, Bry. Have you listened to the Crossroads event and/or their televised gig in Japan?

I hear ya.

Arnel probably does have better pitch, vocal technique, etc. But, as talented as he is in that department, I prefer Augeri...Augeri (for me) had better vibe and presence. Listening to Arnel live, it may as well have been a keyboard...he was hitting most of the notes, but it was kinda lifeless...not an ounce of "rock and roll" in him.

But again, that's just me...a lot of people obviously like him and he's very talented...it just leaves me cold. It's like some of these kids I see on the American Idol commercials...they're hitting the notes...but it's so colorless and bland that it doesn't matter.

Gideon wrote:I'm surprised you don't hear struggle, Bry. Have you listened to the Crossroads event and/or their televised gig in Japan?

I don't hear struggle, I hear weird pronunciation in the Journey tunes from that show. Not diction issues related to language, just a strange darkness in the vowels and really changing the vowels from what they should be and even what they used to be with Arnel. I'm thinking that if he's seeing a teacher at this point, they may be advising him to do that. OR that the show was filmed awhile back when he was still getting over whatever he was dealing with- but it doesn't sound like that to me at all. And yet, in the Rascal Flatts stuff, I don't hear it. That stuff sounds fine, great even. Certainly better than the RF singer who is the most nasal singer I think I've ever heard. Live shows are not going to be absolutely perfect. They're just not. If he was struggling, you'd hear him avoid the high notes and changing them to something lower. You'd hear gravel in his speaking voice and his singing voice. I don't think I've heard either. The televised Japan thing, I've not seen. I saw Separate Ways and again, there was that weirdness with the vowels. Almost like he's chewing them. That's not struggle that's intentional for some reason. Like I said before, he wasn't doing that before. Listen to his Zoo stuff or his shows from the last tour. It wasn't there. Now, he's adopted this new way of singing them and I think it has to be on someone's advice.
The guy has been singing since he was a kid for his living. I really think that he's got the goods and the stamina and experience in his back pocket to do the gig. The last I heard of canceled shows was when he had his reflux issue. That's been a few months. I stand by the dude. I think he's done a heckuva job. We'll see what develops. I'm hoping things are ok with him, he's a good dude and deserves to do well.

EDIT: Just listened to these tunes from the Japan thing- I'm strictly LISTENING by the way.:
Separate Ways- Tuned down a half step. I noticed a couple of pitchy notes, but it's live and it's NOTHING like Augeri's pitch was. You know, not to make excuses, but sometimes In Ears can screw with your pitch. It's true. I don't hear him struggling, but I hear him using a lot of air in some spots. Kind of adds to the emotion of the tune. The parts where he's pitchy aren't the higher notes, this is what's making me think it's just hearing himself. For example, the end notes "And if he ever hurts you, true love won't desert you" highest note in the tune. He nails it.

Any Way You Want It- It's fine. There's that darkening of the vowels that I mentioned, but his pitch, power, and delivery are fine. Nice of the sound guy to leave his mic off during the first vocal scat. Sound guys piss me off and Journey's appears to be just a complete screwup. Ugh. I'd forgotten about that from the first time I saw it- pissed me off then too.

I don't know where the other Budokan videos are.

At this stage of the game, age could be the biggest challenge. Just ask AP about the years he was continuously singing 4 to 6 nights a week, 4 to 6 hours per night this type of "catalog" and sounding just as good on the 5th and 6th nights as he did all the previous. That was....roughly 25 years ago. For AP to now still be able to sing Journey songs that SP sang 30 plus years ago, that's quite an ongoing accomplishment. I don't know of too many other bands that are coninuously playing the same songs 30 plus years later like Journey is doing.

Bry, I'm not anti-Pineda by any means, I just call it like I see it. (Or in this case, hear it.)

He doesn't sound good to me at all on Separate Ways in either the Crossroads or Japan clip. My friend pointed out that Arnel's posture might have something to do with the obvious strain; when he lifts his chin off his chest and lengthens his throat, he seems to have a much easier time with the money notes.

Faithfully also sounds rough. I'm not saying he's at Augeri levels, he's clearly got a stronger voice than Augeri ever did, but this is not the same guy I heard in 2008.

Gideon wrote:Bry, I'm not anti-Pineda by any means, I just call it like I see it. (Or in this case, hear it.)

He doesn't sound good to me at all on Separate Ways in either the Crossroads or Japan clip. My friend pointed out that Arnel's posture might have something to do with the obvious strain; when he lifts his chin off his chest and lengthens his throat, he seems to have a much easier time with the money notes.

Faithfully also sounds rough. I'm not saying he's at Augeri levels, he's clearly got a stronger voice than Augeri ever did, but this is not the same guy I heard in 2008.

The guy was at his best in 2008. Faithfully went to shit in 2009 when they down-tuned and has stayed that way. As crappy as he might sound on the classic stuff these days If he goes to shit singing the Eclipse material that was written specifically for him, live, then there is a problem. Of course they haven't been playing it anymore so who knows.

I can only judge him on the stuff that is his, not the karaoke tribute act he and Augeri had to partake in every show to make their paychecks. Let's hear Chain Of Love or Tantra this tour on a regular basis live; then we will know if the guy is really going off the cliff or not.

Don wrote:

Gideon wrote:Bry, I'm not anti-Pineda by any means, I just call it like I see it. (Or in this case, hear it.)

He doesn't sound good to me at all on Separate Ways in either the Crossroads or Japan clip. My friend pointed out that Arnel's posture might have something to do with the obvious strain; when he lifts his chin off his chest and lengthens his throat, he seems to have a much easier time with the money notes.

Faithfully also sounds rough. I'm not saying he's at Augeri levels, he's clearly got a stronger voice than Augeri ever did, but this is not the same guy I heard in 2008.

The guy was at his best in 2008. Faithfully went to shit in 2009 when they down-tuned and has stayed that way. As crappy as he might sound on the classic stuff these days If he goes to shit singing the Eclipse material that was written specifically for him, live, then there is a problem. Of course they haven't been playing it anymore so who knows.

I can only judge him on the stuff that is his, not the karaoke tribute act he and Augeri had to partake in every show to make their paychecks. Let's hear Chain Of Love or Tantra this tour on a regular basis live; then we will know if the guy is really going off the cliff or not.

I judge him by the material I'll see in concert. I know his voice isn't completely in the shitter; he sounds great on lower stuff, unlike Augeri who seems to struggle and croak every time he opens his mouth. All this is in reference to the Perry era stuff.

I can also hear his accent.

LookthruGlass wrote:I can also hear his accent.

I remember when I was growing up listening to the Beatles. I could hear Paul McCartney's accent too....damn it!

Pelata wrote:I hear ya.

Arnel probably does have better pitch, vocal technique, etc. But, as talented as he is in that department, I prefer Augeri...Augeri (for me) had better vibe and presence. Listening to Arnel live, it may as well have been a keyboard...he was hitting most of the notes, but it was kinda lifeless...not an ounce of "rock and roll" in him.

But again, that's just me...a lot of people obviously like him and he's very talented...it just leaves me cold. It's like some of these kids I see on the American Idol commercials...they're hitting the notes...but it's so colorless and bland that it doesn't matter.

It's not just you.

slucero wrote:

yulog wrote:

slucero wrote:Here's the shows totals year by year.. SP and AP..

Can you ad the shows that Augeri did?

I'd love to.. if I could find a listing of them to use..

I found some info

1998= 59 shows from oct10-dec 31
1999=60 shows from june 2-sept 6
2000=15 shows (could not find any info on a summer tour) the 15 shows were mostly abroad
2001=55 shows from june 2-aug 18
2002-48 shows from april 20-sept 29
2003=60 shows from april 26-oct 4
2004 from june11-sept 18 (could not find the tour dates)
2005=54 shows from june26-dec 1

where'd you find that info?

in various places on the net it wasn't on one page , i had to type in each year and then search through a plethera of pages for each one. i think at one time i saw a grid like you have for perry and augeri but i can't remember where i saw it.

yulog wrote:in various places on the net it wasn't on one page , i had to type in each year and then search through a plethera of pages for each one. i think at one time i saw a grid like you have for perry and augeri but i can't remember where i saw it.

I get mine from here: http://www.journey-tribute.com/journey/ ... _past.html

and Wikipedia