MR

With the announcement of the Deen/Blades project, I'm left to wonder... why is all this creative energy being squandered in places other than Journey? You have Neal's solo project (which he works on with Deen), Arnel's been dropping hints he will do some solo project as well, and Jonathan is in Nashville writing and producing country. If these guys have oats they need to sow, why can't they get into a studio together and allow each other the creative freedom to exploit their varied musical tastes? They're practically more prolific now on their own than they are as a band -- seemingly boxed in by the so-called legacy sound. None of these side projects sell that many units or get radio airplay, so why not just do a Journey record that lets them stretch their legs

FamilyMan wrote:With the announcement of the Deen/Blades project, I'm left to wonder... why is all this creative energy being squandered in places other than Journey? You have Neal's solo project (which he works on with Deen), Arnel's been dropping hints he will do some solo project as well, and Jonathan is in Nashville writing and producing country. If these guys have oats they need to sow, why can't they get into a studio together and allow each other the creative freedom to exploit their varied musical tastes? They're practically more prolific now on their own than they are as a band -- seemingly boxed in by the so-called legacy sound. None of these side projects sell that many units or get radio airplay, so why not just do a Journey record that lets them stretch their legs

Because Cain won't participate unless it sounds exactly how he wants....

Eric wrote:

FamilyMan wrote:With the announcement of the Deen/Blades project, I'm left to wonder... why is all this creative energy being squandered in places other than Journey? You have Neal's solo project (which he works on with Deen), Arnel's been dropping hints he will do some solo project as well, and Jonathan is in Nashville writing and producing country. If these guys have oats they need to sow, why can't they get into a studio together and allow each other the creative freedom to exploit their varied musical tastes? They're practically more prolific now on their own than they are as a band -- seemingly boxed in by the so-called legacy sound. None of these side projects sell that many units or get radio airplay, so why not just do a Journey record that lets them stretch their legs

Because Cain won't participate unless it sounds exactly how he wants....

Bingo. We have a winner.

You could ask the same question during 2005, when Neal was obviously spending much more time on Soul Sirkus than he was on Generations. Deen's got a great voice. Jack is a great writer. Should be a winner.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:You could ask the same question during 2005, when Neal was obviously spending much more time on Soul Sirkus than he was on Generations. Deen's got a great voice. Jack is a great writer. Should be a winner.

LOL...critiquing the band for this too often on BT earned me a warning from the moderators...kinda funny.

I think the truth is they can't agree on a direction...AND if they can't get a Wal-Mart type deal (which I doubt they can) then why invest all the effort?

What would really be interesting is if they get Tommy Shaw to add some songs...in a Damn Yankees or Shaw/Blades style. That would take things to an even higher level. And, don't forget Jack Blades can sing, too.

Journey/Survivor wrote:

Eric wrote:

FamilyMan wrote:With the announcement of the Deen/Blades project, I'm left to wonder... why is all this creative energy being squandered in places other than Journey? You have Neal's solo project (which he works on with Deen), Arnel's been dropping hints he will do some solo project as well, and Jonathan is in Nashville writing and producing country. If these guys have oats they need to sow, why can't they get into a studio together and allow each other the creative freedom to exploit their varied musical tastes? They're practically more prolific now on their own than they are as a band -- seemingly boxed in by the so-called legacy sound. None of these side projects sell that many units or get radio airplay, so why not just do a Journey record that lets them stretch their legs

Because Cain won't participate unless it sounds exactly how he wants....

Bingo. We have a winner.

What he is saying is you can't completely ignore your past...which Neal tried to do with Eclipse. He is correct. They can modernize their sound but still allow the past to be an influence. They did that somewhat with Red 13...but that is irrelevant now because they have start completely over with Arnel.

Monker wrote:
What he [Cain] is saying is you can't completely ignore your past...

ECLIPES absolutely did NOT ignore their past. Some of the the songs were just a bit more heavier or longer than their bigger hits and it wasn't all "I love you" tunes. Not that big a difference. Hold it up next to "Generations" and as you said "Red 13". THOSE albums were departures from Standard Operating Procedure. Eclipse really wasn't that much different an album than say "Frontiers". Geez, remember "Dream After Dream"? I remember interviews where the band were saying "I think it's the best thing we've ever done". So Eclipse is just a bit different, and because of that, the band loses the entire plot? Ridiculous. I agree with the OP that they're squandering a lot of creative effort to Non-Journey stuff here. Hopefully, it doesn't bring down the whole deal.

brywool wrote:

Monker wrote:
What he [Cain] is saying is you can't completely ignore your past...

ECLIPES absolutely did NOT ignore their past. Some of the the songs were just a bit more heavier or longer than their bigger hits and it wasn't all "I love you" tunes. Not that big a difference. Hold it up next to "Generations" and as you said "Red 13". THOSE albums were departures from Standard Operating Procedure. Eclipse really wasn't that much different an album than say "Frontiers". Geez, remember "Dream After Dream"? I remember interviews where the band were saying "I think it's the best thing we've ever done". So Eclipse is just a bit different, and because of that, the band loses the entire plot? Ridiculous. I agree with the OP that they're squandering a lot of creative effort to Non-Journey stuff here. Hopefully, it doesn't bring down the whole deal.

Maybe better stated as Cain wants everything to sound like SW, DSB, OA, etc.... Generations, Red 13 and Eclipse have elements of classic journey at times, but they all show an intentional departure from the usual formula, which resulted in mediocre sales for the most part. When you listen/read interviews JC is still all about sales and the legacy sound, and if it isn't the legacy sound all the way through, he isn't interested. The bottom line is Journey is what pays the bills, ex-wifes, toys, etc... the "fun" side projects don't pay the bills, but they can do something different than J. It's pretty evident that most in the band are bored with Journey and just go through the motions live, but need that vehicle to keep the lifestyle, not that any of them are hard up in the cash department.

yeah, I suppose. Guess it's not supposed to be a growth project.

brywool wrote:

Monker wrote:
What he [Cain] is saying is you can't completely ignore your past...

ECLIPES absolutely did NOT ignore their past. Some of the the songs were just a bit more heavier or longer than their bigger hits and it wasn't all "I love you" tunes. Not that big a difference. Hold it up next to "Generations" and as you said "Red 13". THOSE albums were departures from Standard Operating Procedure. Eclipse really wasn't that much different an album than say "Frontiers". Geez, remember "Dream After Dream"? I remember interviews where the band were saying "I think it's the best thing we've ever done". So Eclipse is just a bit different, and because of that, the band loses the entire plot? Ridiculous. I agree with the OP that they're squandering a lot of creative effort to Non-Journey stuff here. Hopefully, it doesn't bring down the whole deal.

That is their past... and that's the huge difference for the lay fan.. because that's how and what they remember Journey for.. "less heavy pop I-love-you tunes".

Eclipse has moments of "classic Journey".. but it veers away from a classic Journey sound, way more than it comes near it. So it just remains what it is.

FamilyMan wrote:With the announcement of the Deen/Blades project, I'm left to wonder... why is all this creative energy being squandered in places other than Journey? You have Neal's solo project (which he works on with Deen), Arnel's been dropping hints he will do some solo project as well, and Jonathan is in Nashville writing and producing country. If these guys have oats they need to sow, why can't they get into a studio together and allow each other the creative freedom to exploit their varied musical tastes? They're practically more prolific now on their own than they are as a band -- seemingly boxed in by the so-called legacy sound. None of these side projects sell that many units or get radio airplay, so why not just do a Journey record that lets them stretch their legs

Nobody's going to buy a Journey record, either. They might as well do new things they enjoy....obviously, making a new Journey record isn't one of those things.

Eric wrote:

FamilyMan wrote:With the announcement of the Deen/Blades project, I'm left to wonder... why is all this creative energy being squandered in places other than Journey? You have Neal's solo project (which he works on with Deen), Arnel's been dropping hints he will do some solo project as well, and Jonathan is in Nashville writing and producing country. If these guys have oats they need to sow, why can't they get into a studio together and allow each other the creative freedom to exploit their varied musical tastes? They're practically more prolific now on their own than they are as a band -- seemingly boxed in by the so-called legacy sound. None of these side projects sell that many units or get radio airplay, so why not just do a Journey record that lets them stretch their legs

Because Cain won't participate unless it sounds exactly how he wants....

In other words, Cain is a spoiled rotten baby. It almost sounds like Perry circa Raised on Radio.

ebake02 wrote:

Eric wrote:

FamilyMan wrote:With the announcement of the Deen/Blades project, I'm left to wonder... why is all this creative energy being squandered in places other than Journey? You have Neal's solo project (which he works on with Deen), Arnel's been dropping hints he will do some solo project as well, and Jonathan is in Nashville writing and producing country. If these guys have oats they need to sow, why can't they get into a studio together and allow each other the creative freedom to exploit their varied musical tastes? They're practically more prolific now on their own than they are as a band -- seemingly boxed in by the so-called legacy sound. None of these side projects sell that many units or get radio airplay, so why not just do a Journey record that lets them stretch their legs

Because Cain won't participate unless it sounds exactly how he wants....

In other words, Cain is a spoiled rotten baby. It almost sounds like Perry circa Raised on Radio.

Well, they can all take their turn. The last spoiled rotten baby who cried to get his way on an album was Neal Schon. Eclipise is Neal's version of ROR.

Monker wrote:
Well, they can all take their turn. The last spoiled rotten baby who cried to get his way on an album was Neal Schon. Eclipise is Neal's version of ROR.

Eh, I don't know if you can call someone spoiled for wanting HIS band to grow a little?

Eric wrote:

Monker wrote:
Well, they can all take their turn. The last spoiled rotten baby who cried to get his way on an album was Neal Schon. Eclipise is Neal's version of ROR.

Eh, I don't know if you can call someone spoiled for wanting HIS band to grow a little?

Journey isn't Night Ranger... where people EXPECT serious soloing and shredding...

That's the problem with Journey... they're pigeon-holed by their classic sound... clearly Neal's direction of "rocking more" wasn't the right one... prolly too far off the safe path considering how much music distribution has changed, and how single's oriented the market is now.

The best testament is all the people still buying tix and showing up at their shows.. because they expect to hear the classics...


Journey was the 1st band accused of "selling out" when it wasn't cool... now it is, EVERYBODY does it....so why not do just that. Give the people what they want to buy.

... except Neal won't do that... because he wants to "rock" more...

This could be a great project. I know nothing about the guitarist but Deen and Jack could be a force to be reckoned with. Jack's writing ability with Deen's vocals and rhythm may just be the ticket.

I'm a bit sad for Night Ranger as I see NR as the best band in America at the moment. Their last two cd's are great song to song and as good as any of their classic records. I hope this project does not take away from NR.

Regardless, Journey should take in a couple of NR shows. They are the best live band at the moment. Journey has been my favorite band since '82 but I now have a new favorite band. Night Ranger has the best live show and new material going!

I hope this is not the end of Journey but someone once said (paraphrasing) “Go out and do whatever you want, with whomever you want, but don’t crack the stone. Don’t call it Journey”. Of course, that stone has long been cracked BUT, by each remaining member not being able to agree on a direction (and the legacy fans not allowing a change, anyway) and each going out and doing his own thing but with other people and each calling it something else, that long forgotten statement has, more or less, come to pass. I just hope we are never subjected to two bands, both touring as Journey. Perish the thought.

Monker wrote: The last spoiled rotten baby who cried to get his way on an album was Neal Schon. Eclipise is Neal's version of ROR.

Considering that Cain bragged that he came up with the concept of the Eclipse album and wrote 100% of the lyrics, I call bull. How was he left out in the cold? It's guitar driven, and the keyboards take a backseat.

slucero wrote:... clearly Neal's direction of "rocking more" wasn't the right one...

Based on what? "Arrival", the direction of the safe easy-listening Air Supply-lite cd, flopped hard. Maybe harder.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

slucero wrote:... clearly Neal's direction of "rocking more" wasn't the right one...

Based on what? "Arrival", the direction of the safe easy-listening Air Supply-lite cd, flopped hard. Maybe harder.

I never said Arrival was a better path, did I?

I did say in my previous post.. .music distribution has changed and its a singles market now... and as horribly as Arrival failed in 2001, being distributed through Columbia, during the time when traditional distribution was failing... and the market was moving towards singles... Eclipse has also failed miserably in a market that is pretty much solely a singles market..

I also never said Night Ranger was selling boat loads of their 2 last CDS.. just that they are consistent in their sound. Night Ranger is essentially the same, original band. No one misses Jeff Watson.

So it really isn't the about measuring unit sales anymore... especially in the case of a band like Journey or Night Ranger.... who aren't going to re-climb the ladder to top tier fame again... their markets are niche.

Night Ranger is giving their fans exactly what they want, live and recorded.

Journey is doing it on the live front. Not so much on the recorded one.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

Monker wrote: The last spoiled rotten baby who cried to get his way on an album was Neal Schon. Eclipise is Neal's version of ROR.

Considering that Cain bragged that he came up with the concept of the Eclipse album and wrote 100% of the lyrics, I call bull. How was he left out in the cold? It's guitar driven, and the keyboards take a backseat.

Funny, you can say the EXACT SAME THING about ROR. If Ross and Deen had gotten out of line, I bet they would have fired, too....LOL.

Eclipse is Neal's ROR. Neal had been wanting to do a concept album even back shortly after Arrival...and he has always envisioned Journey as being more like Van Halen with a rockier guitar sound. Before it came out, we all knew what it was going to be...and everybody on this forum was drooling over the idea of it. At least that's how it seemed.

Completely turning your back on who you are and what got you there is STOOPID. You can argue all you want about similar songs here and there...again, the same could be said about ROR (Girl Can't Help It, I'll Be Alright Without You, and Why Can't This Night Go On Forever). In the end the over-all idea was to turn Journey into an in your face guitar band. One of my biggest critiques is at times I can hear AT LEAST three Neal's playing at once. That's not Journey to me.

And, I LIKE Eclipse...but given the choice, I would choose Arrival every time.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

slucero wrote:... clearly Neal's direction of "rocking more" wasn't the right one...

Based on what? "Arrival", the direction of the safe easy-listening Air Supply-lite cd, flopped hard. Maybe harder.

YES. The issue with Arrival was not good songs...it was a label who didn't give a damn. They could have built out Red 13 to a full album and continued down the path of change...and maybe eventually Journey could have been more like the band Neal had always wanted. But, throwing it all at the fans at once was NOT what most people wanted. Now Neal will never get it...unless he goes outside of Journey...which won't surprise me if he does.

Gina3008 wrote:I hope this is not the end of Journey but someone once said (paraphrasing) “Go out and do whatever you want, with whomever you want, but don’t crack the stone. Don’t call it Journey”. Of course, that stone has long been cracked BUT, by each remaining member not being able to agree on a direction (and the legacy fans not allowing a change, anyway) and each going out and doing his own thing but with other people and each calling it something else, that long forgotten statement has, more or less, come to pass. I just hope we are never subjected to two bands, both touring as Journey. Perish the thought.

Hasn't this been argued to death? STEVE PERRY cracked the stone when he fired Ross and Steve Smith and recorded ROR. Neal threw away that stone and tried to carve a new one when he went forward with Augeri and Deen.

Now, NEAL cracked the stone again by firing Augeri and JSS...and is trying to carve yet another with Arnel.

The problem right now is Neal's stones are just not big enough to allow Journey to be what it should.

Monker wrote:

Gina3008 wrote:I hope this is not the end of Journey but someone once said (paraphrasing) “Go out and do whatever you want, with whomever you want, but don’t crack the stone. Don’t call it Journey”. Of course, that stone has long been cracked BUT, by each remaining member not being able to agree on a direction (and the legacy fans not allowing a change, anyway) and each going out and doing his own thing but with other people and each calling it something else, that long forgotten statement has, more or less, come to pass. I just hope we are never subjected to two bands, both touring as Journey. Perish the thought.

Hasn't this been argued to death? STEVE PERRY cracked the stone when he fired Ross and Steve Smith and recorded ROR. Neal threw away that stone and tried to carve a new one when he went forward with Augeri and Deen.

Now, NEAL cracked the stone again by firing Augeri and JSS...and is trying to carve yet another with Arnel.

The problem right now is Neal's stones are just not big enough to allow Journey to be what it should.

Geez. Listen to yourself. Can’t you see that some here do agree with what you are saying, to a point, anyway?

Neal does want to take his band further via guitar, has tried very hard, but since recording studios or Wal-Mart or whoever else COULD be involved, is NOT INVOLVED and no one in the group seems to agree with Neal (well, Deen, maybe), he is playing that sound with others. He has “the stones” but is throwing them in with new musicians. Neal’s new sound, via ever how many guitars he chooses to play, will be what some want to hear, just not called Journey.

It appears that the others in Journey are going to take their “stones” to go play with others, also. Cain’s sound will perhaps appease those in a legacy frame of mind, regardless of what his band may be called.

Yes, the main fan base prefers the Dirty Dozen, seen via concert ticket sales. So, of course, they would want Journey to continue in this vein of music. But, whether EVERYONE wished for the band to change it up TOGETHER as Journey or EVERYONE wished them to stay the same as Journey, it is an impossibility for both to happen. So relax.The change Journey is going thru really is what it is. Whether it is with Neal or Jon, we may ALL still get to listen to our favorite of the two sounds. It just may not be called Journey. Or two bands touring as Journey.

given Neal's legacy with bands outside of Journey.. any jaunt will be short-lived..

Gina3008 wrote:Neal does want to take his band further via guitar, has tried very hard, but since recording studios or Wal-Mart or whoever else COULD be involved, is NOT INVOLVED and no one in the group seems to agree with Neal (well, Deen, maybe), he is playing that sound with others. He has “the stones” but is throwing them in with new musicians. Neal’s new sound, via ever how many guitars he chooses to play, will be what some want to hear, just not called Journey.

The point is Journey is a BAND. If they all can't compromise and allow the BAND to be the best it can be then there is no point in making new music. Jonathan said that Eclipse was Neal's album. It is what he wanted. But, it is at the price of others, especially Jonathan, compromising their vision for the band. No one person should have that much control in Journey...not Steve Perry, and not Neal Schon.

It appears that the others in Journey are going to take their “stones” to go play with others, also. Cain’s sound will perhaps appease those in a legacy frame of mind, regardless of what his band may be called.

I doubt very much that Jonathan will join another band, except maybe the Babys "reunion" or maybe some type of project with John Waite....but I doubt all that. He seems much more into writing music and production. I would think he would put most of his efforts into his daughter's career...if she is to have one.

Yes, the main fan base prefers the Dirty Dozen, seen via concert ticket sales. So, of course, they would want Journey to continue in this vein of music. But, whether EVERYONE wished for the band to change it up TOGETHER as Journey or EVERYONE wished them to stay the same as Journey, it is an impossibility for both to happen. So relax.The change Journey is going thru really is what it is. Whether it is with Neal or Jon, we may ALL still get to listen to our favorite of the two sounds. It just may not be called Journey. Or two bands touring as Journey.

I disagree. I think they were on the right path with Arrival and were making the adjustments slowly. Then they through all of that away and had to start over when they fired Augeri and then JSS. They had to start completely over. But, instead of promoting change, they promoted "legacy sound" with Revelation...and then they threw in Eclipse to confuse everybody.

I doubt many people really care now...they are back where they were when they released Generations...and they know it.

Monker wrote:I disagree. I think they were on the right path with Arrival and were making the adjustments slowly.

No idea what the hell this means. After Arrival, Cain was publicly saying in interviews that the band was DONE with full length LPs. Does that sound like a positive adjustment to you? 1/2 of Red 13 was previously recorded unused material. And the less said about the slapdash Generations, the better. No, they were not on the right path post-Arrival. As far as new material, they were officially done. With Arnel, the band has put out 2 solid albums. If nothing else, that's better than nothing.

Monker wrote:No one person should have that much control in Journey...not Steve Perry, and not Neal Schon.

None of us really know how the votes are counted among the band members regarding changes in their music so it is pure speculation for ANYONE to say who makes the final decisions OR who SHOULD make the final decisions. It is Neal who started the band. That, alone, should give him more say so than anyone. I would certainly want to be in charge if I had started the business. Wouldn’t you if it were your business? Whether anyone agrees with him or not, our opinions (mine, yours, or whoever’s) will NEVER change that.

Monker wrote:I doubt very much that Jonathan will join another band, except maybe the Babys "reunion" or maybe some type of project with John Waite....but I doubt all that. He seems much more into writing music and production. I would think he would put most of his efforts into his daughter's career...if she is to have one..

I do tend to agree with this but would love it if Jon chose to use his writing skills to put out some music similar to the legacy sound.

Monker wrote:
I disagree. I think they were on the right path with Arrival and were making the adjustments slowly. Then they through all of that away and had to start over when they fired Augeri and then JSS. They had to start completely over. But, instead of promoting change, they promoted "legacy sound" with Revelation...and then they threw in Eclipse to confuse everybody.

I personally loved several songs on Arrival with Steve Augeri, even still like some of his new music, was not so much into the guitar shredding on post Arrival music wth Journey but could accept some of it, will always love the ballads but think I would have still liked or could have accepted more progressive sounds.

Monker wrote:I doubt many people really care now...

People do care or we wouldn't be on a forum spouting our views.

Personally, I wish Steve Perry had stayed with Journey and that he and the others were still together, still changing it up.

For a more rocking sound, JSS would definitely have been the one to take them there.

Arnel has done a good job that was given to him by Neal but I do not think he, personally, has taken them further, because he is only doing what was allowed him by Neal, to sound like Steve Perry. I believe Arnel could do well out on his own with his own music, though.

Would I change Journey history if I could? A resounding YES. But the operative word here is Could (if I COULD). I, like you and others, CANNOT bring about the changes we want, will never be able to bring about these changes, no matter how much we fight for the changes or how much we spout our views.

The one and only thing we can really do is agree to disagree. But, then, we really wouldn't need a forum, would we?

First, I would say Perry had ROR.
Jon had Revelation. (After all, JSS was in, then out, and Jon was talking up the legacy sound. Seemed like Jon pushed JSS and forcing the legacy sound.)
Neal got Eclipse.

Jon is sitting in a position feel superior since "his" album did better than Neal's.

Aaron wrote:Regardless, Journey should take in a couple of NR shows. They are the best live band at the moment.

Aaron, Journey toured with Night Ranger 2 years ago.

As for Night Ranger giving fans what they want, true...now. But Hole In The Sun was sort of NRs Eclipse.


And MONKER, you should know just how unlikely it is that Jon will EVER work with Waite again.