MR

Never saw this before ... great insight into the business of the band at the time ...

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/featu ... 612?page=3

Rolie's statement that you can't get too far out ahead of your audience or you lose them would have been wise to consider with their last album.

tj wrote:Rolie's statement that you can't get too far out ahead of your audience or you lose them would have been wise to consider with their last album.

Because playing it safe with earlier albums, like Arrival, worked wonders, right? To date, "Revelation" is the only post-Perry album to be a bonafide hit. To crib a phrase from James Carville, "it's the re-records, stupid!"

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

tj wrote:Rolie's statement that you can't get too far out ahead of your audience or you lose them would have been wise to consider with their last album.

Because playing it safe with earlier albums, like Arrival, worked wonders, right? To date, "Revelation" is the only post-Perry album to be a bonafide hit. To crib a phrase from James Carville, "it's the re-records, stupid!"

I'm not sure if I understand what you are suggesting. Both Arrival and Revelation (new material disk) "played it safe" by sticking pretty close to the classic formula. Revelation having two disks made the sales numbers bigger but I don't think the re-records was why, do you? It could have been a double album of anything, I think, and the numbers would be the same. I like Revelations a lot, but I never listen to the re-records. Do you?

Majestic wrote:Both Arrival and Revelation (new material disk) "played it safe" by sticking pretty close to the classic formula. Revelation having two disks made the sales numbers bigger but I don't think the re-records was why, do you? It could have been a double album of anything, I think, and the numbers would be the same.

Without the hits, the safe sounding Arrival AND the more experimental Eclipse, both crash landed straight into the $1 bargain bin at Walmart. Not to mention Red 13 and Generations. So no, I don't agree with what you're saying. Revelation was released on the heels of Don't Stop Believin mania and capitalized on the popularity of that song. Good on Schon for taking some creative risks on Eclipse, sales figures be damned.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

Majestic wrote:Both Arrival and Revelation (new material disk) "played it safe" by sticking pretty close to the classic formula. Revelation having two disks made the sales numbers bigger but I don't think the re-records was why, do you? It could have been a double album of anything, I think, and the numbers would be the same.

Without the hits, the safe sounding Arrival AND the more experimental Eclipse, both crash landed straight into the $1 bargain bin at Walmart. Not to mention Red 13 and Generations. So no, I don't agree with what you're saying. Revelation was released on the heels of Don't Stop Believin mania and capitalized on the popularity of that song. Good on Schon for taking some creative risks on Eclipse, sales figures be damned.

You're probably right about the Don't Stop Believin' mania being a factor. I don't agree about the inclusion of the hits being a factor. If anyone thought they were getting the hits they would be very disappointed and the word of mouth would have killed it, and I don't think it matters how great Arnel sung them. The hits are cast in stone and set in time, you can't deviate from that and still have a hit. To have current bona fide hit, Journey can't be Journey. Hits these days don't sound like Journey music and so it really doesn't matter how great of a Journey song they crank out. Even Perry wouldn't make much of a difference unless you want to count AC. Journey could still get a bona fide hit in that market same way as Revelations did. Of course everybody said that didn't count. So to get a hit they need to guest hip-hop artists sort of like Santana did with Supernatural. Some dancing sharks, wouldn't hurt either if a hit is what they want. I, for one, am glad Journey is no longer making hits because hit music is....[you know what] music.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:Without the hits, the safe sounding Arrival AND the more experimental Eclipse, both crash landed straight into the $1 bargain bin at Walmart. Not to mention Red 13 and Generations. So no, I don't agree with what you're saying. Revelation was released on the heels of Don't Stop Believin mania and capitalized on the popularity of that song. Good on Schon for taking some creative risks on Eclipse, sales figures be damned.

From whatever small perspective I can add ...

• Arrival came at a time when Journey once again disappeared without a trace after Perry's rehab and what the band saw as another long hibernation. Azoff, who owned a great deal of pop acts on the Sony roster, convinced the record company to give the band a shot with Augeri and release Arrival (probably to try and recoup some of the production advance from Trial By Fire as well) ... Nobody cared. Perry was gone. As good as Augeri was at that point, there simply was no interest from Sony to plow any more money into the continuing disaster that was Journey and there was no interest from the public in this band that kind of sounded like Journey but didn't really. Lifehouse, Creed, Staind, and Matchbox 20 was the sound in 2001. Journey's sound was dated, and as good as the songs may have been, the entire release was a fiasco. Azoff couldn't help them, Sony wouldn't help them, Herbie had no interest in helping them ... The band instead turns to touring with other 80s acts on the nostalgia circuit to rebuild their fan base and get a solid paycheck again.

• 2004/2005, the band has been touring nonstop and Schon, who is a poster child for ADHD if there ever was one, realizes there's no real light at the end of the tunnel. Creatively he doesn't care to spend any more energy on the band – he took some detours with Red 13 and fans just scratched their heads ... The touring machine doesn't stop despite the loss of Augeri's voice. They are getting by one gig at a time at this point, but to his credit Augeri still thinks they can have a hit and his good friend Jon Cain wants to help make it happen. So they record Generations, some new songs, some remakes, some outtakes from old sessions. Schon does his duty and adds what's required to make the album. It's dead on arrival.

• 2007, Azoff scores the band an exclusive release arrangement with Wal Mart because the retailer wants in on their huge backlog of hits. Even during summer of 2007 though the band has no idea what this release will look like. Pre-Sopranos it appears they'll re-record some of the hits and add a few new tunes to sell the record, but there's no big plan. Suddenly David Chase makes Journey famous again, and the band is left holding their dicks with no singer, no tour, no record, no nothing. DSB sparks a huge resurgence in the band, as does Glee and it takes off from there. Suddenly the public wants to know what is happening with Journey.

When Schon realizes the band has the public's attention again, he wants to put new music out, so the plan turns into making a double CD - the re-releases they promised Wal Mart and a CD of new material. Then lightening strikes again when they pull Pineda out of the hotel bar in Manilla he'd been gigging in and make him the face of the band. They already have the public's attention with the Sopranos stuff, but the story takes on a new angle with the "homeless Filipino" Schon found on YouTube. The re-records take a back seat to Schon's efforts to be relevant again.

Revelation is released in 2008. Wal Mart's interest went from pre-ordering about 50,000 copies to pre-ordering 450,000 copies of a double CD (thanks for the new roof on my house, Wal Mart). Cain marvels that the band is now a "world band" and the filipino community also rallies around the release. Here's the important thing to remember – the re-records didn't play nearly as much a role in the success of that record other than the "platinum math" of a double CD. People wanted to buy new music from Journey, they wanted to hear Pineda, they loved his story and the band actually recorded new material that lived up to their brand.

Understand this: If the band had released a single CD of re-recorded hits with Pineda, or Augeri, or Jeff Scot Soto, Revelations would not have had the success it did. It was the perfect storm of pop culture zeitgeist, Pineda's rags to riches story, and interest in new material from the band. The last time I cared about Revelation sales figures, they were close to 850,000 copies sold. I know they are still selling (though not much) because I still get royalty checks every quarter. So the math is pretty solid – even without a double CD it would have eventually gone platinum but if it were a single CD of re-records the public wouldn't have taken the band or Pineda seriously. The statement of coming out with new music played a huge role in their resurgence.

• 2010/2011 Eclipse: Schon takes creative control of the band at this point. He's won a pretty significant power struggle in the band between himself and Jon Cain with the success of Arnel Pineda, and he wants to go back to the experimental sound of his solo stuff and Red 13, etc. Whether or not he thinks people actually want to hear that style of music, or he just doesn't care, he has no interest in putting out another record based on the Journey formula for success. That, combined with the fact that the public has moved on from Pineda's incredible success story, pretty much means the record lands with a thud. It sounds great, the playing is incredible, the singing is phenomenal, but it has very little resemblance to the Journey the public wants to hear.

• So 2014/2015 ... the band pretty much goes back to where they were in the early 2000s. Touring each summer for the paycheck, Schon's interests have moved off into more creative directions again and a possible reunion with Santana (who has had an incredible decade of success himself). Cain's pragmatism leads him into a different direction entirely – he knows if the public doesn't want another big Journey record, he's going to spend his time in more profitable directions. Deen is branching out with Revolution Saints. Pineda is tired of the road and probably contemplating a move that will allow him to enjoy his family and stay active in the business. Maybe a new Journey record in 2016 or 2017, but nobody in the band really knows for sure.

What's certain is that people still love those songs - that "dirty dozen" that shaped the brand of Journey. Die hard fans claim they want something "new and different," but deep down, what we really love is the sound that originally brought us into the band, whether it was Perry's Frontiers-era command of the band, or the pre-Cain years, or even the experimental early days ... it's just human nature. We carry that little piece of the band with us forever and ever – no matter what the future holds, there will always be those songs.

Jeremey wrote:Here's the important thing to remember – the re-records didn't play nearly as much a role in the success of that record other than the "platinum math" of a double CD. People wanted to buy new music from Journey, they wanted to hear Pineda, they loved his story and the band actually recorded new material that lived up to their brand.

Understand this: If the band had released a single CD of re-recorded hits with Pineda, or Augeri, or Jeff Scot Soto, Revelations would not have had the success it did.

That's an eloquent historical recap, Jeremey. I always enjoy your posts. Unfortunately, five releases and counting, I don't think there is ANY proof that there is a demand in the marketplace, beyond die-hard fans, for new Journey music (not during the Augeri or the Pineda years). As I mentioned, Revelation DID come out during the DSB-mania and the band enjoyed a nice spike in publicity. No denying that. The Revelation combo package included a cd of hits, a DVD of mostly hits, and a cd of new tunes - all sold at the affordable Walmart "nice price." Take away the new tunes and, in my opinion, it would have sold just as well. After all, the initial deal with Walmart was to re-record the hits - that pretty much says it all. As a totally non-scientific example, I was at a BBQ in the summer of 2008. An old friend of mine, who happened to be a regular viewer of Sopranos, purchased the Revelation package and was blaring the re-records loudly in his backyard patio. When I tried to get him to spin the disc of new material, he wouldn't. No interest. AT ALL. He later admitted he lost it or threw it out! None of this should be surprising. This is similar to casual concertgoers who hit the beer tent anytime the band plays something new. Obviously, this is not to diminish your writing contributions. I enjoy Revelation, and most of the post-Perry releases. I just don't see any evidence of the band succeeding based on new material. Journey and Arnel were hot in the same way as Psy and Gangnam Style or that really annoying Friday song on YouTube. A blip on the zeitgeist radar. Nothing more. Neal and the band mistook this fleeting pop-cultural hype for reality and overestimated the American public's embrace of this lineup. So they released Eclipse expecting Revelation-like sales figures. Instead, they now find themselves right back in Arrival low ranking purgatory hell. And no amount of "playing it safe" or including more Cain ballads on the next cd is likely to change that.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

Jeremey wrote:Here's the important thing to remember – the re-records didn't play nearly as much a role in the success of that record other than the "platinum math" of a double CD. People wanted to buy new music from Journey, they wanted to hear Pineda, they loved his story and the band actually recorded new material that lived up to their brand.

Understand this: If the band had released a single CD of re-recorded hits with Pineda, or Augeri, or Jeff Scot Soto, Revelations would not have had the success it did.

That's an eloquent historical recap, Jeremey. I always enjoy your posts. Unfortunately, five releases and counting, I don't think there is ANY proof that there is a demand in the marketplace, beyond die-hard fans, for new Journey music (not during the Augeri or the Pineda years). As I mentioned, Revelation DID come out during the DSB-mania and the band enjoyed a nice spike in publicity. No denying that. The Revelation combo package included a cd of hits, a DVD of mostly hits, and a cd of new tunes - all sold at the affordable Walmart "nice price." Take away the new tunes and, in my opinion, it would have sold just as well. After all, the initial deal with Walmart was to re-record the hits - that pretty much says it all. As a totally non-scientific example, I was at a BBQ in the summer of 2008. An old friend of mine, who happened to be a regular viewer of Sopranos, purchased the Revelation package and was blaring the re-records loudly in his backyard patio. When I tried to get him to spin the disc of new material, he wouldn't. No interest. AT ALL. He later admitted he lost it or threw it out! None of this should be surprising. This is similar to casual concertgoers who hit the beer tent anytime the band plays something new. Obviously, this is not to diminish your writing contributions. I enjoy Revelation, and most of the post-Perry releases. I just don't see any evidence of the band succeeding based on new material. Journey and Arnel were hot in the same way as Psy and Gangnam Style or that really annoying Friday song on YouTube. A blip on the zeitgeist radar. Nothing more. Neal and the band mistook this fleeting pop-cultural hype for reality and overestimated the American public's embrace of this lineup. So they released Eclipse expecting Revelation-like sales figures. Instead, they now find themselves right back in Arrival low ranking purgatory hell. And no amount of "playing it safe" or including more Cain ballads on the next cd is likely to change that.

I think both you boys are correct in your assessments. One anecdote I can share: When Eclipse was coming out, the band's publicist reached out to me (I was at CBS News) and asked if we could do a sequel of sorts to the CBS Sunday Morning piece on the new Journey lineup. We both agreed that the new album wasn't enough to sell the story. I can't remember now if it was her idea or mine to peg the story to the 30th Anniversary of "Don't Stop Believin'" which had now become a stadium anthem for the SF Giants and other franchises. But we agreed that the journey (pardon the pun) of that song was a fun new prism through which we could look at the band, and retell Arnel's story of triumph - because by 2011, they'd already played Manila and the band's trip to the Philippines had been documented by Ramona Diaz. We booked Neal, Jon and Arnel for the new interview, which was centered around "DSB." After the shoot, Neal complained to the publicist that we didn't ask enough about Eclipse. He seemed to be genuinely dumbfounded that we were more interested in a 30 year-old song rather than a new fresh project. Neal was really jazzed about Eclipse. He thought it was the best thing they'd done in years - perhaps since Perry. I think the public's rejection of it came as a complete surprise and hit him hard.

FamilyMan wrote:I think both you boys are correct in your assessments. One anecdote I can share: When Eclipse was coming out, the band's publicist reached out to me (I was at CBS News) and asked if we could do a sequel of sorts to the CBS Sunday Morning piece on the new Journey lineup. We both agreed that the new album wasn't enough to sell the story. I can't remember now if it was her idea or mine to peg the story to the 30th Anniversary of "Don't Stop Believin'" which had now become a stadium anthem for the SF Giants and other franchises. But we agreed that the journey (pardon the pun) of that song was a fun new prism through which we could look at the band, and retell Arnel's story of triumph - because by 2011, they'd already played Manila and the band's trip to the Philippines had been documented by Ramona Diaz. We booked Neal, Jon and Arnel for the new interview, which was centered around "DSB." After the shoot, Neal complained to the publicist that we didn't ask enough about Eclipse. He seemed to be genuinely dumbfounded that we were more interested in a 30 year-old song rather than a new fresh project. Neal was really jazzed about Eclipse. He thought it was the best thing they'd done in years - perhaps since Perry. I think the public's rejection of it came as a complete surprise and hit him hard.

Thanks for inside insight, FM. Almost sounds like a self-fulfilling prophesy. Journey's PR people think Eclipse doesn't merit a CBS news story. CBS News doesn't think Eclipse merits a story. And then the band is shocked, positively shocked, when Eclipse barely gets mentioned on CBS News. Now, to be fair, over the years, I have seen ALOT of artists covered by CBS Sunday Morning and these features usually coincide with a new project. But, of course, most of these acts were not already on their third replacement singer...

A well-written piece. One wouldn't expect anything else from the likes of Ben Fong-Torres.

That said, you just have to laugh at the constant inclusions of words such as "game plan," "business," "calculations," "money-smart," etc., as if Journey were plotting their songwriting, albums and tour plans with protractors, compasses and abacuses.

It's almost as if the Rolling Stone editors forced Torres to find the angle that jived with their beloved "corporate rock" tag.

In reading the piece, what strikes me as evident -- aside from the not-so-subtle attempt to disparage Journey as some sort of concocted cash cow -- is that Herbie Herbert would today be lauded as an industry power player. That type of acumen -- scoring commercials, endorsements, finding ways to get an artist airplay, keeping creative control with the artist -- in 2015 would put him on Billboard's Power 100 list and he'd be giving keynote speeches at industry conferences. But in 1980, all that "scheming" meant that he was the John Madden-esque puppeteer of some "corporate rock" band that was obviously more interested in business as opposed to music.

What a sick joke.

To this day, I wholeheartedly believe that Journey cared deeply about the music they were writing AND, yes, obviously they were mindful of taking care of business. They could play their asses off AND write songs that affected millions. That's called striking gold and having your cake and eating it too. Perry's voice was like no other; Schon could rip your heart out with either a sharp riff or heart-aching melody; Rollie and Cain were fantastic musicians/capable songwriters; Steve Smith an understated powerhouse behind the drums; and Ross, I guess ... was Ross.

The aging Deadheads at Rolling Stone somehow interpreted all this as an affront to rock and roll, and obviously were clueless (or just didn't care to pay attention) as to the brimming musicality of Journey. The music business has always been about business -- Herbie Herbert was just extremely smart and wise, and frankly way ahead of his time.

Meanwhile, all these years later, RS' beloved heroes -- from Springsteen to McCartney to Dylan -- charge $50 for a "limited-edition Born In The USA glass," record disposable singles with Kanye West and Rihanna in a "calculated" bid to get a hit, and participate in million-dollar Super Bowl commercials for Chrysler, respectively. Nothing "corporate" there ... LOL. Meanwhile, the rag today dedicates its "musical editorial" to glowing five-reviews for bubble-gum codswallop like Katy Perry, Taylor Swift and Fall Out Boy -- acts that have far less talent than Jonathan Cain's fingernails, let alone Journey.

Gotta love how the world turns with touches of comedy and hypocrisy.

The unfortunate truth is that it wasn't Herbie who tore apart the corporate structure that existed under the umbrella of the Journey name...

It was the other 5 board members who were willingly complicit in its creation.

Steve Perry
Neil Schon
Jon Cain
Ross Valory
Steve Smith

The band.

The very reason for Journey's success is the combination of the songs, with everything else that WAS plotted.... from their album covers to their tour plans marketing etc... likely all measured with with protractors, compasses and abacuses. All the precursor for today's music industry... Journey & Herbie were just "ahead of their time"... And Journey WAS a cash cow.. and still is to some degree... saying so is simply telling the truth..

This article i what I'd expect from any writer from RS... and the hard on the RS founders had for Journey permeated through the old guard RS writers.. of whom Fong Torres is...

so it's not surprising... in fact its sort of predictable... which is about as UN-rock & roll as it gets...

The_Noble_Cause wrote: Take away the new tunes and, in my opinion, it would have sold just as well.

Without expending a lot of digital ink, this is where we disagree, and that's cool. I also have no delusions that my writing contributions had anything to do with the success of that package. I like Never Walk Away and I'm proud of my uncredited contributions to WDILYL – I think they're two of the best moments on that CD, regardless of my involvement. But they didn't sell the record. It was a combination of all the things discussed above.