Cain Interview - New Journey Music

[The_Noble_Cause]

Says the band is working on new music & new album at the 5:40 mark. Here's hoping.

https://myrealfm.com/interview-with-kyl ... f-journey/

[FamilyMan]

Said "probably." Will believe it when I hear it.

[Andrew]

It's going to be an album of Trump approved white supremacist hymns.

[The_Noble_Cause]

It's going to be an album of Trump approved white supremacist hymns.

I think you're in the wrong thread, dude.
For most fans of melodic rock, a new Journey album - especially with Smitty playing - is pretty big news.

[scarab]

Just hoping they bring in Jack Blades and limit Cain to one sappy ballad (Think of Arrival's Loved by You).

And PLAY the songs live.

[Monker]

Said "probably." Will believe it when I hear it.

Yeah, it was almost said in passing, not a very concrete thing.

It was also in the middle of discussing work/life balance, and how the band is more focused on the 'life' part of that balance as they all get older.

It really didn't sound like anything to celebrate just yet...it's just an idea and possibility.

[Andrew]

I can't imagine Cain and Schon working in any close collaborative form required to pump out an album at this stage.

[Memorex]

I can't imagine Cain and Schon working in any close collaborative form required to pump out an album at this stage.

Just 7 or 8 short years ago, Van Halen released their last studio album. Yes, some of it was older stuff, but some was new. If they can do it, anyone can do it. More and more people don't even have to be in the same country to record an album. I imagine Cain says ok, here are my 6 songs and the way I want them played. Neal say here's my 6 songs. Everyone records their parts on their own, and then you have a piece of merchandise that isn't going to sell anyway, and will add nothing to the world of music.

If you take the musicians in this band individually and collectively, they are easily some of the most gifted, talented people in all of music. Truly, these people are the cream of the crop. From an artistic perspective, by any measure, individually and collectively, they have squandered their gifts for more than two decades, while complaining about the lack of progress or opportunity. While they have created some music, they have created nothing new, nothing that pushed art forward, and nothing that should be expected by masters in their field. They are the world's top mathematicians working on Ribet's Theorem.

I will say Steve Smith, as an individual artist, is excluded from this commentary. He is ten times the drummer today than he was in his original Journey days. He studies and pushes and teaches - a true master of his craft in every sense of the word.

By the way, Ribet's Theorem was proof of the Epsilon Conjecture by Ken Ribet in 1986, the year ROR was released.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I can't imagine Cain and Schon working in any close collaborative form required to pump out an album at this stage.

Perhaps. But Neal has gone from attacking Jon daily on Twitter to saying that they are brothers, are back on track, and the future is bright. I wouldn't be surprised if they have already started writing.

[RPM]

I can't imagine Cain and Schon working in any close collaborative form required to pump out an album at this stage.

Perhaps. But Neal has gone from attacking Jon daily on Twitter to saying that they are brothers, are back on track, and the future is bright. I wouldn't be surprised if they have already started writing.

I hope they do it. Jon can still write, Neal can still play & Arnel is on limited time but can bring it for an album.
They don't need to do it having such a wonderful catalog to play from but I hope they do. Think positive Andrew....

[Aaron]

Perfect, just what the market wants.

It's going to be an album of Trump approved white supremacist hymns.

[Aaron]

Agree TNC. I don't think it will be be big but it will be something. Has Mac gone off the deep end?

It's going to be an album of Trump approved white supremacist hymns.

I think you're in the wrong thread, dude.
For most fans of melodic rock, a new Journey album - especially with Smitty playing - is pretty big news.

[Aaron]

And hopefully some ROCK! and agree

Just hoping they bring in Jack Blades and limit Cain to one sappy ballad (Think of Arrival's Loved by You).

And PLAY the songs live.

[Aaron]

Agree 100%. Hopefully Schon will grab Rolie and make new rock!

I can't imagine Cain and Schon working in any close collaborative form required to pump out an album at this stage.

[Jana]

I have no faith in a good album being put out by Journey without outside help. Why? Jon has lost the plot. It will be saccharine music full of cliches. Neal needs someone with some musical creative fire in him to help make a Journey album, with minimal lyrics from Jon. Actually, these days I would prefer zero lyrics coming from Jon. And Arnel's lyrics aren't strong enough to offset Jon's. And Jon will have a fit if anything seems too edgy (secular).

[The_Noble_Cause]

I have no faith in a good album being put out by Journey without outside help. Why? Jon has lost the plot. It will be saccharine music full of cliches.

While Revelation and Eclipse are chock-full of cliches, I still think they are pretty good.

[Monker]

I have no faith in a good album being put out by Journey without outside help. Why? Jon has lost the plot. It will be saccharine music full of cliches. Neal needs someone with some musical creative fire in him to help make a Journey album, with minimal lyrics from Jon. Actually, these days I would prefer zero lyrics coming from Jon. And Arnel's lyrics aren't strong enough to offset Jon's. And Jon will have a fit if anything seems too edgy (secular).

Well, I disagree. I think Jonathan could write on a Journey album if he wants to. I think he knows what Journey is and isn't...and he knows that Journey is not a Christian rock band. He also seems to understand that Journey's sound is bigger than just one person. So, if it goes into Neal 'taking the reigns" again, like on Eclipse, I doubt he will do it. If it is a collaborative effort where they ALL have input and are at least considered, then maybe it will happen. If it's not like that, then I don't think it should. None of this 'phoning it in' stuff.

And, BTW, I think Augeri did some of that with Generations...and how did that all turn out? I thought the sound on Generations sucked, and phoning in the vocals is part of the reason why.

[The_Noble_Cause]

And, BTW, I think Augeri did some of that with Generations...and how did that all turn out? I thought the sound on Generations sucked, and phoning in the vocals is part of the reason why.

I don't hear any of that. Generations kicks off with Augeri doing a primal shout on FITH. That same raw energy is maintained on almost the entire album. I wish his performance on Arrival was even half as aggressive and expressive. Even on Generations' ballads, like KTYLM, Augeri sings like his life depended on it.

[Jana]

I have no faith in a good album being put out by Journey without outside help. Why? Jon has lost the plot. It will be saccharine music full of cliches. Neal needs someone with some musical creative fire in him to help make a Journey album, with minimal lyrics from Jon. Actually, these days I would prefer zero lyrics coming from Jon. And Arnel's lyrics aren't strong enough to offset Jon's. And Jon will have a fit if anything seems too edgy (secular).

Well, I disagree. I think Jonathan could write on a Journey album if he wants to. I think he knows what Journey is and isn't...and he knows that Journey is not a Christian rock band. He also seems to understand that Journey's sound is bigger than just one person. So, if it goes into Neal 'taking the reigns" again, like on Eclipse, I doubt he will do it. If it is a collaborative effort where they ALL have input and are at least considered, then maybe it will happen. If it's not like that, then I don't think it should. None of this 'phoning it in' stuff.

And, BTW, I think Augeri did some of that with Generations...and how did that all turn out? I thought the sound on Generations sucked, and phoning in the vocals is part of the reason why.

You are describing Jon before he lost his mind. That was before he was on stage in Paula's mega church helping and supporting Paula in her scam trying to brainwash families into giving a month's salary to the church so that they can get back. Most of those people are living month to month, and here his wife is trying to scam them out of a whole month's salary the first of every year,. And when Jon was on criminal Jim Bakker's show fawning all over him in between Bakker's infomercials it was evident Jon was a lost cause. So, no, I don't know that he is capable of co-writing a full Journey album to my liking. I would like to be proven wrong, but as of right now, I stand by what I've said. I think he's gone down the rabbit hole too far.

[The_Noble_Cause]

You are describing Jon before he lost his mind. That was before he was on stage in Paula's mega church helping and supporting Paula in her scam trying to brainwash families into giving a month's salary to the church so that they can get back. Most of those people are living month to month, and here his wife is trying to scam them out of a whole month's salary the first of every year,. And when Jon was on criminal Jim Bakker's show fawning all over him in between Bakker's infomercials it was evident Jon was a lost cause. So, no, I don't know that he is capable of co-writing a full Journey album to my liking. I would like to be proven wrong, but as of right now, I stand by what I've said. I think he's gone down the rabbit hole too far.

None of this has anything to do with Jon's songwriting ability.

[Monker]

You are describing Jon before he lost his mind. That was before he was on stage in Paula's mega church helping and supporting Paula in her scam trying to brainwash families into giving a month's salary to the church so that they can get back. Most of those people are living month to month, and here his wife is trying to scam them out of a whole month's salary the first of every year,. And when Jon was on criminal Jim Bakker's show fawning all over him in between Bakker's infomercials it was evident Jon was a lost cause. So, no, I don't know that he is capable of co-writing a full Journey album to my liking. I would like to be proven wrong, but as of right now, I stand by what I've said. I think he's gone down the rabbit hole too far.

That's a very well formed opinion. Thank you for posting it.

Beyond Jonathan's writing, what I am trying to say is that I don't think Jonathan will be a part of Journey where Neal takes over the direction, like on Eclipse. It seems to me that is not the type of thing he would want to be a part of, again. He's said that Neal sorta earned Eclipse...but I doubt he will continue down that path at this point in his life.

[The_Noble_Cause]

That's a very well formed opinion. Thank you for posting it.

Beyond Jonathan's writing, what I am trying to say is that I don't think Jonathan will be a part of Journey where Neal takes over the direction, like on Eclipse. It seems to me that is not the type of thing he would want to be a part of, again. He's said that Neal sorta earned Eclipse...but I doubt he will continue down that path at this point in his life.

Jon wrote 100% of the lyrics for Eclipse. Songs like Tantra sound like Cain through and through. The idea that he was somehow creatively sidelined doesn't seem accurate to me. The only thing confirmed is that Neal wanted a rock direction and vetoed any more romantic ballads. But it's hard to disown a record when you wrote 100% of the lyrics.

[Arkansas]

What about those half dozen songs that Neal recorded in Nashville a year or whenever ago? I imagine any song can be tweaked, redone, etc, at Addiction Sound, especially since Jon and Neal both live in Nashville now.

Btw, didn't DeenC have a tech/roadie once that lives in N'ville? Jim with unmatching high-tops?


later~

[Monker]

That's a very well formed opinion. Thank you for posting it.

Beyond Jonathan's writing, what I am trying to say is that I don't think Jonathan will be a part of Journey where Neal takes over the direction, like on Eclipse. It seems to me that is not the type of thing he would want to be a part of, again. He's said that Neal sorta earned Eclipse...but I doubt he will continue down that path at this point in his life.

Jon wrote 100% of the lyrics for Eclipse. Songs like Tantra sound like Cain through and through. The idea that he was somehow creatively sidelined doesn't seem accurate to me.

Nobody in this thread said Jonathan was creatively sidelined.

The only thing confirmed is that Neal wanted a rock direction and vetoed any more romantic ballads.

Which is EXACTLY what I was saying when I said that Neal took over the direction of the album.

But it's hard to disown a record when you wrote 100% of the lyrics.

Jonathon wrote or cowrote EVERY song on EVERY album from the time he joined the band with Escape up to Arrival where he is not credited on a couple songs. This includeds ROR where Perry took over the direction of the band and dictated everything from the musical direction, members of the band, and even the album cover. So, how one person is directing the band is not the same as who has input on what songs. IMO, what Jonathan has said in some of his past interviews leads me to believe that he wants to return to the classic Journey sound and style...an album more like Revelation than Eclipse. So, if Neal decides to act similar to how Perry did during ROR, again, then I would not expect Jonathan to want to record.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Nobody in this thread said Jonathan was creatively sidelined.

You seem to believe that Cain was not allowed to collaborate and not allowed to have input, so what else would you call that? Sounds like being creatively sidelined to me. The truth is, Cain wrote 100% of the lyrics, played on the album, and was even responsible for the theme of the album - based on a book "The Power of Intention" Cain was reading at the time.

Which is EXACTLY what I was saying when I said that Neal took over the direction of the album.

Cain only distanced himself from Eclipse when it failed to sell like Revelation. It's the old saying 'success has many fathers, failure is an orphan.' Up to the release, he was all about it.

Jonathon wrote or cowrote EVERY song on EVERY album from the time he joined the band with Escape up to Arrival where he is not credited on a couple songs. This includeds ROR where Perry took over the direction of the band and dictated everything from the musical direction, members of the band, and even the album cover.

I've never denied Cain's influence on ROR. The music of ROR, much like the music of Eclipse, was a collaborative effort. If anyone got sidelined it was Neal and obviously Smitty/Ross.

IMO, what Jonathan has said in some of his past interviews leads me to believe that he wants to return to the classic Journey sound and style...an album more like Revelation than Eclipse.

The only member that has specifically discussed the sound of the next Journey album is Neal. He said he wants it to be "heavy rock mode Motown ala like Separate Ways." Cain has only spoken in more general terms.

So, if Neal decides to act similar to how Perry did during ROR, again, then I would not expect Jonathan to want to record.

This would only make sense if Neal fired Cain and replaced him with session players.
In reality, Cain wrote 100% of the Eclipse lyrics, played on the album, and came up with the album concept.
Then he disowned it after it didn't live up to sales expectations.

[Monker]

You seem to believe that Cain was not allowed to collaborate and not allowed to have input

That is absolutely not true. I have not said that. I have not implied that. I have not argued that in this thread and in nearly 30yrs of posting to Journey forums I have not said that about Jonathan regarding Eclipse or any other Journey album.

All I am saying is that if Neal wants to control the direction of an album, AS YOU DESCRIBE he did with Eclipse, then I don't think he'll participate.

Jonathon wrote or cowrote EVERY song on EVERY album from the time he joined the band with Escape up to Arrival where he is not credited on a couple songs. This includeds ROR where Perry took over the direction of the band and dictated everything from the musical direction, members of the band, and even the album cover.

I've never denied Cain's influence on ROR. The music of ROR, much like the music of Eclipse, was a collaborative effort. If anyone got sidelined it was Neal and obviously Smitty/Ross.[/quote]

The point is that one member directing the direction of the band does NOT equate to Jonathan not having input on the album. If he could have a hand in EVERY song on ROR under the dictatorship of Steve Perry, then OF COURSE he could have input under the direction of Neal Schon. BUT, I don't think he will be willing to do it again.

[The_Noble_Cause]

You seem to believe that Cain was not allowed to collaborate and not allowed to have input

That is absolutely not true. I have not said that. I have not implied that.

Sigh. Your gas-lighting act is getting so old.
You literally said in this thread (quote below) that Cain will only participate if the next album is collaborative and band members have their input considered.

"So, if it goes into Neal 'taking the reigns" again, like on Eclipse, I doubt he will do it. If it is a collaborative effort where they ALL have input and are at least considered, then maybe it will happen. If it's not like that, then I don't think it should. None of this 'phoning it in' stuff."

All I am saying is that if Neal wants to control the direction of an album, AS YOU DESCRIBE he did with Eclipse, then I don't think he'll participate.

Again - Cain wrote 100% of Eclipse's lyrics. He said he was inspired to write City of Hope after visiting Manila. He came up with the album concept from a book he was reading. He played on it. He hired the guy, Dave Kalmusky, who ended up recording vocals and mastering the entire album. It's a joke to pretend that Cain didn't have some MAJOR degree of control.

The point is that one member directing the direction of the band does NOT equate to Jonathan not having input on the album. If he could have a hand in EVERY song on ROR under the dictatorship of Steve Perry, then OF COURSE he could have input under the direction of Neal Schon. BUT, I don't think he will be willing to do it again.

Cain described it as a partnership initially. He only made it sound like a Schon dictatorship once it disappointed. For those paying attention, Cain had a negative attitude after Arrival also failed on the charts. Whatever Cain thinks, the music of Arrival and Eclipse speaks for itself.

[Monker]

Sigh. Your gas-lighting act is getting so old.
You literally said in this thread (quote below) that Cain will only participate if the next album is collaborative and band members have their input considered.

"So, if it goes into Neal 'taking the reigns" again, like on Eclipse, I doubt he will do it. If it is a collaborative effort where they ALL have input and are at least considered, then maybe it will happen. If it's not like that, then I don't think it should. None of this 'phoning it in' stuff."

Yes, I am talking about NEAL above and his general attitude towards the writing and recording of Eclipse. How, AS YOU SAID, he wanted a specific musical direction and would not allow ballads. What I am saying is that is bullshit. If somebody brings in a ballad, that idea should be considered and not dismissed. If someone brings in a reggae song, the idea should be considered and not dismissed....and I am not talking specifically about Jonathan, but ANY member of the band. Neal should not be able to dictate those things. If that is what he wants to do with the next album, then I doubt Jonathan will participate....and frankly, I don't think the album should be recorded with that type of attitude in the band.

I am not 'gaslighting'....you simply get something stuck in your head and want to argue about it and no matter how many times you are told that is NOT their opinion, you are argue about it anyway.

All I am saying is that if Neal wants to control the direction of an album, AS YOU DESCRIBE he did with Eclipse, then I don't think he'll participate.

Again - Cain wrote 100% of Eclipse's lyrics.

I don't care. He cowrote every song on ROR. Neither ROR nor Eclipse is as good as Journey COULD BE when they act like a band and allow ideas and creativity to freely flow.

He said he was inspired to write City of Hope after visiting Manila.

Yeah, and "Open Arms" was greeted by Neal with "what am I supposed to do on this?" And, the entire band mocked Perry during the recording. "Sounds kinda Mary Poppins to me."

Faithfully was inspired by a dream Jonathan had.
Send Her My Love was inspired by a conversation Jonathan had with somebody about an ex girlfriend.

Some of Journey's most popular songs and biggest hits...none would have been recorded by Neal under his "no ballad" rule during Eclipse.

The point is that one member directing the direction of the band does NOT equate to Jonathan not having input on the album. If he could have a hand in EVERY song on ROR under the dictatorship of Steve Perry, then OF COURSE he could have input under the direction of Neal Schon. BUT, I don't think he will be willing to do it again.

Cain described it as a partnership initially. He only made it sound like a Schon dictatorship once it disappointed. For those paying attention, Cain had a negative attitude after Arrival also failed on the charts. Whatever Cain thinks, the music of Arrival and Eclipse speaks for itself.

I am not even talking about this bullshit. In a Force interview, Jonathan went on about Bad English and how he had to negotiate with John Waite and the label to get songs on the album, like "Ghost In My Heart"...and they (both Waite and the label) insisted on "When I See You Smile" being recorded. Jonathan said something like "Neal Schon, Ricky Phillips, John Waite, and Jonathan Cain can't write songs good enough to be on the album? Wrong." He said John Waite wanted to be a rock star and had that mentality...essentially saying that is what caused so much chaos in the band. A band born from uniting the Babys and Journey - that should get along. He said a band has a fate, a life, an existence, and that he knew what it took to be in a band. He said they had a number one song, but couldn't sell 2000 seats...and that told him all that he needed to know.

And, he has repeated bits of the above over the years as well.

Again, I don't think Jonathan will participate if Neal has the same attitude of wanting to control the direction and sound of the band.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Yes, I am talking about NEAL above and his general attitude towards the writing and recording of Eclipse. How, AS YOU SAID, he wanted a specific musical direction and would not allow ballads. What I am saying is that is bullshit. If somebody brings in a ballad, that idea should be considered and not dismissed. If someone brings in a reggae song, the idea should be considered and not dismissed....and I am not talking specifically about Jonathan, but ANY member of the band. Neal should not be able to dictate those things. If that is what he wants to do with the next album, then I doubt Jonathan will participate....and frankly, I don't think the album should be recorded with that type of attitude in the band.

And now you are contradicting yourself. After denying you stated/implied that Cain wasn't allowed to collaborate or have input, you are now saying that Cain was not allowed to collaborate or have any input. With all due respect, it's basically impossible to have any sort of conversation with you. It's not productive. All you do is gaslight. When someone references one of your posts or even quotes it directly, you deny saying it.

Yeah, and "Open Arms" was greeted by Neal with "what am I supposed to do on this?" And, the entire band mocked Perry during the recording. "Sounds kinda Mary Poppins to me."

Glad you brought this up. When Cain was promoting he Eclipse he actually cited Open Arms as an example of their creative kinship.

"Neal had my back all these years, man. When I brought in "Faithfully," he pulled out a guitar. When I brought in "Open Arms," he played guitar. So I had his back, too. I said, 'I'm there for you, bro.' That's how we roll. That's why we're partners.

Some of Journey's most popular songs and biggest hits...none would have been recorded by Neal under his "no ballad" rule during Eclipse.

There was no reason to enforce that rule back then. The band was still largely known as a rock band. Since that time, every album has been ballad heavy. Were you also against Neal fighting with Sony to add rockers to Arrival? Without Herbie, someone has to make creative decisions and I trust Neal much more than Azoff or Baruck.

Also saying "no" to any more bubble-gum wedding ballads is different from not letting Cain have ANY input and ballads were allowed (see "To Whom It May Concern") - they just couldn't be the typical boy-meets-girl radio friendly pablum.

I am not even talking about this bullshit.

It's not bullshit to point out that Cain promoted Eclipse until it failed to live up to sales expectations.
You just want to call this "bullshit" because it undermines your claim that Cain had no creative input.

In a Force interview, Jonathan went on about Bad English and how he had to negotiate with John Waite and the label to get songs on the album, like "Ghost In My Heart"...and they (both Waite and the label) insisted on "When I See You Smile" being recorded. Jonathan said something like "Neal Schon, Ricky Phillips, John Waite, and Jonathan Cain can't write songs good enough to be on the album? Wrong." He said John Waite wanted to be a rock star and had that mentality...essentially saying that is what caused so much chaos in the band. A band born from uniting the Babys and Journey - that should get along. He said a band has a fate, a life, an existence, and that he knew what it took to be in a band. He said they had a number one song, but couldn't sell 2000 seats...and that told him all that he needed to know.

And, he has repeated bits of the above over the years as well.

Talk about irrelevant bullshit. What does this have to do with anything? Neal didn't use outside writers like Diane Warren on Eclipse. He used Jonathan Cain!
Cain wrote it, Cain played on it, Cain hired the guy (Kalmusky) who mastered it and did re-dubs, Cain come up with the album idea etc. etc.

Again, I don't think Jonathan will participate if Neal has the same attitude of wanting to control the direction and sound of the band.

One way or another, new Journey music is happening. Jon can either be a part of it or keep singing about the baby Jesus.

[Monker]

Yes, I am talking about NEAL above and his general attitude towards the writing and recording of Eclipse. How, AS YOU SAID, he wanted a specific musical direction and would not allow ballads. What I am saying is that is bullshit. If somebody brings in a ballad, that idea should be considered and not dismissed. If someone brings in a reggae song, the idea should be considered and not dismissed....and I am not talking specifically about Jonathan, but ANY member of the band. Neal should not be able to dictate those things. If that is what he wants to do with the next album, then I doubt Jonathan will participate....and frankly, I don't think the album should be recorded with that type of attitude in the band.

And now you are contradicting yourself. After denying you stated/implied that Cain wasn't allowed to collaborate or have input, you are now saying that Cain was not allowed to collaborate or have any input.

You don't even read what you are replying to. I said, "...and I am not talking specifically about Jonathan, but ANY member of the band." I am talking about Neal and his attitude of directing the music and writing of the BAND.

With all due respect, it's basically impossible to have any sort of conversation with you.

For you, yes, because you get ideas stuck in your head of what you want to argue about and regardless of how many times I repeat myself, you believe only what you want to believe because you want to argue about specific things.

It's not productive. All you do is gaslight. When someone references one of your posts or even quotes it directly, you deny saying it.

Dude, in what you quoted in your previous post to prove that I believe Jonathan was not allowed to collaborate, etc, I DID NOT EVEN MENTION HIS NAME.

Yeah, and "Open Arms" was greeted by Neal with "what am I supposed to do on this?" And, the entire band mocked Perry during the recording. "Sounds kinda Mary Poppins to me."

Glad you brought this up. When Cain was promoting he Eclipse he actually cited Open Arms as an example of their creative kinship.

Irrelevant because that song would never have been presented to Neal because he said no ballads.

Were you also against Neal fighting with Sony to add rockers to Arrival?

That was so long ago that I don't remember. I probably didn't care much one way or the other. I could probably go and look it up on alt.music.journey and find out what I was arguing at that time.

Without Herbie, someone has to make creative decisions and I trust Neal much more than Azoff or Baruck.

I don't think Herbie made decision about the music...telling them they can't write certain types of songs or styles.

Also saying "no" to any more bubble-gum wedding ballads is different from not letting Cain have ANY input and ballads were allowed (see "To Whom It May Concern") - they just couldn't be the typical boy-meets-girl radio friendly pablum.

Yes...like Open Arms, Faithfully, and Send Her My Love....perfect examples of wedding/boy meets girl radio friendly 'pablum'.

It's not bullshit to point out that Cain promoted Eclipse until it failed to live up to sales expectations.

It is bullshit to me because I really don't care.

You just want to call this "bullshit" because it undermines your claim that Cain had no creative input.

I'm not claiming that AT ALL. For whatever reason, you just want to argue about why Jonathan wasn't creatively sideline, a claim I have never made.

In a Force interview, Jonathan went on about Bad English and how he had to negotiate with John Waite and the label to get songs on the album, like "Ghost In My Heart"...and they (both Waite and the label) insisted on "When I See You Smile" being recorded. Jonathan said something like "Neal Schon, Ricky Phillips, John Waite, and Jonathan Cain can't write songs good enough to be on the album? Wrong." He said John Waite wanted to be a rock star and had that mentality...essentially saying that is what caused so much chaos in the band. A band born from uniting the Babys and Journey - that should get along. He said a band has a fate, a life, an existence, and that he knew what it took to be in a band. He said they had a number one song, but couldn't sell 2000 seats...and that told him all that he needed to know.

And, he has repeated bits of the above over the years as well.

Talk about irrelevant bullshit. What does this have to do with anything?

It explains Jonathan's attitude about how a band is supposed to function and what happens when one member wants to take over the direction of the band. He KNOWS that is not what a BAND is.

Again, I don't think Jonathan will participate if Neal has the same attitude of wanting to control the direction and sound of the band.

One way or another, new Journey music is happening. Jon can either be a part of it or keep singing about the baby Jesus.

[/quote]

It seems to me that the reason why Journey Through Time even existed was to get around Journey's stagnation. It seems to me that in order to get Steve Perry out after the TBF debacle, they had to negotiate his departure with attorneys, Neal didn't fire him. It seems to me that getting rid of Jonathan will be no where near as simple as you seem to think.....if it were, Neal would have done that a long time ago during one his pouty moments on Twitter. And, at this point in his life, I really don't think Jonathan would mind putting Journey on permanent hiatus and concentrating on Christian music.