The end of Journey as we know it, or not ... ?

[annie89509]

A month ago, the Journey stone was being fractured into pieces, mainstream newsfeeds picked up on the story. Journey fans all over converged here to get in on the discussion.

Not a peep since. No follow-up article, no updates. Have Ross and Smitty been fired or not? Was it a hoax or some kind of publicity stunt (as a few posters suggested)?

We all know Neal as somewhat of a drama queen. Maybe this was just another instance of him seeking attention … an opportunity to get "his" band in the public conscious during hiatus. I wonder.

[Journey/Survivor]

A month ago, the Journey stone was being fractured into pieces, mainstream newsfeeds picked up on the story. Journey fans all over converged here to get in on the discussion.

Not a peep since. No follow-up article, no updates. Have Ross and Smitty been fired or not? Was it a hoax or some kind of publicity stunt (as a few posters suggested)?

We all know Neal as somewhat of a drama queen. Maybe this was just another instance of him seeking attention … an opportunity to get "his" band in the public conscious during hiatus. I wonder.

Schon, Cain and Journey's management know that with all of the Coronavirus talk that Journey wouldn't get any attention right now, so there's no reason for them to feed the hype machine right now. After the CV scare is over they will probably start feeding the hype machine again. Of course, it's certainly possible that their whole scheduled tour will have to be cancelled? So they may need to come up with a new publicity stunt by the time they eventually tour again?

You know, instead of just dropping the bullshit and acting like true professionals.

[JohnH]

I guess everything that happens is a hoax now, including the virus, Susan Goings legally winning and bringing down Toto-also must be false.
You can’t try out musicians or rehearse the band if you might get sick and die of this hoax virus. They must have spent on lot on real lawyers to concoct those hoax legal moves against Steve and Ross.

[Monker]

Everybody is probably keeping silent for legal reasons, IMO. I still think this will get thrown out of court.

If Journey tours after the virus, I doubt VERY MUCH that Steve Smith will be there. I doubt he will ever be involved in Journey ever again. No way...he doesn't need Journey. Ross may be wanting to retire anyway and there is no sense in prolonging the agony of being in a band that acts like this...so I doubt he would go back, or be asked back.

Some people obviously like the idea of shake up in the band. Some will see it as a Schon/Cain band with hired musicians calling themselves Journey...the lawsuit papers basically admit that. Most people will just stop caring all together.

So, yes, I think this may be the beginning of the true end of Journey. IMO, Eclipse marked the beginning of the end...but I doubt there is any coming back from this.

I watched a couple Beeb Birtles interviews recently. He was a founding member of Little River Band. He wrote a book of his memoirs and is promoting it. Of course he still gets asked about LRB and if there will be a reunion of the original members, etc. His answer is interesting...that he feels that the time has passed for that. The success they had with "Birtles/Shorrock/Goble" (BSG) was as close as they could get. Without using the "Little River Band" name, there is no sense in continuing.

The point I want to get to is, he was asked how the original members lost the rights to the name. Did they sell the rights to it? He said that is why he wrote the book...that people believe they all sold their rights to the name and signed it away. He said it's just not true, he never signed anything giving up his rights to the name. It was the courts who made the decision.

I find that interesting...it all ends up in court with a judge making some decision. It happened with LRB. It happened with Styx. And, now it will happen with Journey - twice. Once when Steve Perry left, and now with Schon's temper tantrum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdD5jIyXkO8

[Journey/Survivor]

I guess everything that happens is a hoax now, including the virus, Susan Goings legally winning and bringing down Toto-also must be false.
You can’t try out musicians or rehearse the band if you might get sick and die of this hoax virus. They must have spent on lot on real lawyers to concoct those hoax legal moves against Steve and Ross.

Do you get that what Schon and Cain are claiming is its-self a conspiracy theory? So there is indeed a conspiracy here. Either Smith and Valory conspired to overthrow Schon and Cain. (Yeah right, really likely )Or Schon and Cain and company have conspired with a publicity stunt to gain attention for the band and to sell more tickets.

[The_Noble_Cause]

IMO, Eclipse marked the beginning of the end...but I doubt there is any coming back from this.

Eclipse came out a decade ago. The band's most recent major tour, with Leppard, was one of the biggest tours of the year. As for Smitty and Ross.....getting Smitty back was a huge win for the band. Overall tho, who cares. Like Ross, he was just there for a paycheck.

[The_Noble_Cause]

A month ago, the Journey stone was being fractured into pieces, mainstream newsfeeds picked up on the story. Journey fans all over converged here to get in on the discussion.

Not a peep since. No follow-up article, no updates. Have Ross and Smitty been fired or not? Was it a hoax or some kind of publicity stunt (as a few posters suggested)?

We all know Neal as somewhat of a drama queen. Maybe this was just another instance of him seeking attention … an opportunity to get "his" band in the public conscious during hiatus. I wonder.

In true Journey dysfunctional fashion, they prolly shit-canned Ross/Smitty without having any replacements lined up yet. I was hoping that some music journalists would have reached out to Neal or Cain for an update by now.

[Andrew]

Management won't return my emails....LOL

[Monker]

IMO, Eclipse marked the beginning of the end...but I doubt there is any coming back from this.

Eclipse came out a decade ago.

Correct, and I said, it is Journey's last album, at least released on any deal like the WalMart deal. No major label will ever release another Journey album. They would have had to release it themselves or go to Frontiers or something B grade like that.

The band's most recent major tour, with Leppard, was one of the biggest tours of the year. As for Smitty and Ross.....getting Smitty back was a huge win for the band. Overall tho, who cares. Like Ross, he was just there for a paycheck.

I think a lot of people care, which is probably another reason why Schon/Cain hasn't said anything else. This lawsuit explicitly says that THEY are Journey. There are going to be a lot of people who believe Journey is more than just Schon and Cain. They are now, according to the lawsuit, Schon/Cain with three people who are replaceable and are not really part of the band, they really don't contribute anything creatively and are completely replaceable - according to the lawsuit.

The fact is that the past few years Journey was the Escape lineup without Perry. The closest version of 80's Journey you can get, considering the state of Steve Perry. That is an exciting thing for many people. Today, they are not even what they were with Augeri. Good luck with that.

I have to wonder what Herbie thinks of this...that is who someone needs to interview, not Neal or Jonathan. If he doesn't believe that Neal Schon threw away the rest of his career by being sue-happy, I would be shocked.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Correct, and I said, it is Journey's last album, at least released on any deal like the WalMart deal. No major label will ever release another Journey album. They would have had to release it themselves or go to Frontiers or something B grade like that.

So pretty much where they were before Arnel?

Both Red 13 and Generations were released independently. Eventually, Gens was released in the US by the now defunct Sanctuary label and performed terribly. Having no major label isn't a new low point for Journey - it's deja vu, it's groundhog day. It's how the band existed for the majority of the post-Perry era.

I think a lot of people care, which is probably another reason why Schon/Cain hasn't said anything else.

1) Cain these days only talks religion on his social media accounts.
2) Neal has mentioned the firing a few times on social media. Saying that they are going "to reform the mothership."

This lawsuit explicitly says that THEY are Journey.

Well, yea, they have been in charge since 1998.
When they auditioned singers, do you think Ross, Deen, or Smitty, had any role in that?
Do you think those guys were involved in the Arrival writing sessions? What exactly are you saying?

There are going to be a lot of people who believe Journey is more than just Schon and Cain.

Oh please. The idea that audiences could get over losing Perry, but not Ross and Smitty is just nonsense. Smitty's name means something to musicians, but not much to the casual listener. And Ross's name doesn't hold much stock with casual audiences or musicians.

They are now, according to the lawsuit, Schon/Cain with three people who are replaceable and are not really part of the band, they really don't contribute anything creatively and are completely replaceable - according to the lawsuit.

The band's most recent resurgence with Arnel didn't involve Smitty at all. How many writing credits involve Ross and Smitty since 1998? Smitty himself is a replacement for Deen and Omar Hakim. You are pretending like both these guys have been there constantly since the 70s.

The fact is that the past few years Journey was the Escape lineup without Perry. The closest version of 80's Journey you can get, considering the state of Steve Perry. That is an exciting thing for many people.

The truth is, if the band could replace a legendary one of a kind vocalist like SP, they can replace a mediocre bassist and a jazz drummer collecting an easy paycheck. Most people don't even know about the lawsuit and frankly, don't care.

Today, they are not even what they were with Augeri. Good luck with that.

You just said the current band is nearing the end because they have no major label. Now you are wistfully looking back on the Augeri days through rose-colored glasses when they had NO label (among other problems). Please be consistent. As already mentioned, the Leppard/Journey tour was one of the biggest tours of 2019. There's really no end in sight.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Management won't return my emails....LOL

Thanks Drew. What about just reaching out to Neal? He seems to be up 24/7 noodling on his guitars and just responding to fans on FB. Unless it's his wife.

[Eric]

The fact is that the past few years Journey was the Escape lineup without Perry.

The last few years have been the worst active years in Journey's history. And honestly worse than some of their inactive years considering they were writing during that off time.

[Eric]

Management won't return my emails....LOL

Thanks Drew. What about just reaching out to Neal? He seems to be up 24/7 noodling on his guitars and just responding to fans on FB. Unless it's his wife.

Yeah, I would just reach out to him on Twitter and ask him how's it going...

[Monker]

Correct, and I said, it is Journey's last album, at least released on any deal like the WalMart deal. No major label will ever release another Journey album. They would have had to release it themselves or go to Frontiers or something B grade like that.

So pretty much where they were before Arnel?

Both Red 13 and Generations were released independently. Eventually, Gens was released in the US by the now defunct Sanctuary label and performed terribly. Having no major label isn't a new low point for Journey - it's deja vu, it's groundhog day. It's how the band existed for the majority of the post-Perry era.

Except they do not even take the time to record for a B label now.

The point is, they went from the high of Revelation, and all of the DSB exposure, to releasing Eclipse which obviously under performed and probably lost money for Wal-mart. That part of Journey's career is over...they will never have another deal like that again.

I think a lot of people care, which is probably another reason why Schon/Cain hasn't said anything else.

1) Cain these days only talks religion on his social media accounts.
2) Neal has mentioned the firing a few times on social media. Saying that they are going "to reform the mothership."

That doesn't change the fact that Neal views Journey as a two man band with non-creative side members.

This lawsuit explicitly says that THEY are Journey.

Well, yea, they have been in charge since 1998.

That is not the same thing as saying Neal and Jon are Journey and the rest of the players do not contribute creatively and are replaceable.

When they auditioned singers, do you think Ross, Deen, or Smitty, had any role in that?
Do you think those guys were involved in the Arrival writing sessions? What exactly are you saying?

I am saying Neal Schon and Jonathan Cain do not equate to "Journey"....Just as I have argued for decades that Steve Perry does not equate to Journey. Even Neal Schon said in an interview after the Bill Graham tribute that "Journey is Steve Perry, Neal Schon, Jonathan Cain, AND Steve Smith, AND Ross Valory". He didn't even want to call it "Journey" for the tribute. How things change...where now he thinks that ONLY Neal Schon, and Jonathan Cain are Journey...and Steve Smith, Ross Valory, and Arnel Pineda are sidemen who do not contribute to the band.

There are going to be a lot of people who believe Journey is more than just Schon and Cain.

Oh please. The idea that audiences could get over losing Perry, but not Ross and Smitty is just nonsense.

They have lost Perry. The have lost Steve Smith. They have lost Ross Valory. In addition, they have lost Deen, and Augeri, and JSS. It gets to a point where all of the shuffling of members is too much...and that is where they are now.

They are now, according to the lawsuit, Schon/Cain with three people who are replaceable and are not really part of the band, they really don't contribute anything creatively and are completely replaceable - according to the lawsuit.

The band's most recent resurgence with Arnel didn't involve Smitty at all. How many writing credits involve Ross and Smitty since 1998? Smitty himself is a replacement for Deen and Omar Hakim. You are pretending like both these guys have been there constantly since the 70s.

No, I'm not saying that at all. I am saying Journey has ridden a wave of nostalgia the past few years. Regardless of all of these arguments that you are making, they are admitting that Journey is nothing more than a duo now. That is not going to go over very well at this point in their careers. This isn't 1985 where they could get by with advertising it as "Journey with Randy Jackson and Michael Baird".

The truth is, if the band could replace a legendary one of a kind vocalist like SP, they can replace a mediocre bassist and a jazz drummer collecting an easy paycheck. Most people don't even know about the lawsuit and frankly, don't care.

Even if people do not know about the lawsuit, and I think many more know than you will admit, they will find out when they start touring next year....if they even get to that point.

Today, they are not even what they were with Augeri. Good luck with that.

You just said the current band is nearing the end because they have no major label.

That is NOT what I said. NOWHERE did a say anything of the sort.

I said I felt that Eclipse was the beginning of the end of Journey. But, this is truly the beginning of the end because there is no coming back from this. They had opportunities after Eclipse to make a true come back. They had success touring. They had the HoF where they could have taken advantage of and released new songs. Eclipse ruined their recording career but firing and suing Smith and Valory is going to ruin their touring career, too.

Now you are wistfully looking back on the Augeri days through rose-colored glasses when they had NO label (among other problems). Please be consistent.

That is not what I am doing at all. My point is they treated each other with a bit of respect. And, they had Ross as another founding member. The truth is that the band was as close as you could get to Journey without Steve Perry, at that time. Today, all Journey is is Cain/Schon. That's not good enough.

As already mentioned, the Leppard/Journey tour was one of the biggest tours of 2019. There's really no end in sight.

Yeah, I'm sure many fans felt a similar way in 1986, too.

[Eric]

Eclipse ruined their recording career

How did making a brilliant album that debuted at #13 on the billboard charts ruin their recording career? What has stopped their recording career is Schon+Cain not seeing eye-to-eye and not having enough support from the rest of the band or management. That has now changed... well... or maybe not with Coronavirus.

[Monker]

Eclipse ruined their recording career

How did making a brilliant album that debuted at #13 on the billboard charts ruin their recording career? What has stopped their recording career is Schon+Cain not seeing eye-to-eye and not having enough support from the rest of the band or management. That has now changed... well... or maybe not with Coronavirus.

First of all, opinions of Eclipse are irrelevant. I'm not even going to argue the merits of the album. Secondly, according to the lawsuit, there is no "rest of the band". Thirdly, Jonathan and Neal can record...but there is no way Wal-Mart or Sony will make a deal to release it.

Revelation was a huge success with its sales...even without doubling the count for the extra CD and DVD. Obviously Wal-Mart felt Eclipse would sell in good numbers. In the months that followed, you could go to Wal-Mart and find many copies of Eclipse, sometimes dozens. It obviously did not sell nearly what Wal-Mart expected. They paid to have all of those CD's created. They paid to have all of those CD's in their warehouse(s). They paid to have those CD's sit on the shelf. Unsold CD's on the shelf and in the warehouse(s) cost Wal-Mart a lot of money. There is no way any Wal-Mart deal will happen ever again. Selling 100,000 CD's through Frontiers is not the same as selling 100,000 through Wal-Mart when the expected to sell 1,000,000 or more.

[Andrew]

Management won't return my emails....LOL

Thanks Drew. What about just reaching out to Neal? He seems to be up 24/7 noodling on his guitars and just responding to fans on FB. Unless it's his wife.

Already done....no reply.

[wednesday's child]

Management won't return my emails....LOL

Thanks Drew. What about just reaching out to Neal? He seems to be up 24/7 noodling on his guitars and just responding to fans on FB. Unless it's his wife.

Already done....no reply.

How about Monker's idea to sound out Herbie for perspective?
I'd be very interested in his take

[The_Noble_Cause]

Ross's countersuit makes it seem like Neal's Journey spin-off band started the legal in-fighting. After a quick read through, Nightmare's attorneys got involved as JTT could possibly dilute the official Journey brand (translation - hurt the main cash cow). In response to that, Neal tried to replace Nightmare's legal counsel and also refused to go along with the Arnel WB biopic. Because of this, Arnel threatened not to perform. Quite a doozy.

However, if Ross was actually interested in recording and playing something besides the dirty dozen, Neal would never had been compelled to create JTT to begin with.

[The_Noble_Cause]

First of all, opinions of Eclipse are irrelevant. I'm not even going to argue the merits of the album. Secondly, according to the lawsuit, there is no "rest of the band". Thirdly, Jonathan and Neal can record...but there is no way Wal-Mart or Sony will make a deal to release it.

Aside from Journey, I'm not familiar of any rock bands getting multiple exclusive deals from Walmart. Most Walmart exclusive rock releases were one and done. In fact, if I recall correctly, the Wmart executive behind all those music releases was fired. As for Sony..... they recently reconciled with Toto. So anything is possible.

Revelation was a huge success with its sales...even without doubling the count for the extra CD and DVD. Obviously Wal-Mart felt Eclipse would sell in good numbers. In the months that followed, you could go to Wal-Mart and find many copies of Eclipse, sometimes dozens. It obviously did not sell nearly what Wal-Mart expected. They paid to have all of those CD's created. They paid to have all of those CD's in their warehouse(s). They paid to have those CD's sit on the shelf. Unsold CD's on the shelf and in the warehouse(s) cost Wal-Mart a lot of money. There is no way any Wal-Mart deal will happen ever again. Selling 100,000 CD's through Frontiers is not the same as selling 100,000 through Wal-Mart when the expected to sell 1,000,000 or more.

Revelation sold as well as it did because it was an album of hits. I have friends that threw the CD of new songs right in the trash. Journey was very fortunate to get a second deal from Walmart. I'm glad they used that small window of opportunity to do something as sonically ambitious as Eclipse. Touting the underperforming sales of Eclipse as some harbinger of the end makes zero sense. The album made more of an impact than the 2 cds (Red 13, Gens) preceding it. You sound exactly like the doom and gloom Perryheads claiming that Arrival's chart performance signaled the immediate end.

[Monker]

Aside from Journey, I'm not familiar of any rock bands getting multiple exclusive deals from Walmart. Most Walmart exclusive rock releases were one and done. In fact, if I recall correctly, the Wmart executive behind all those music releases was fired. As for Sony..... they recently reconciled with Toto. So anything is possible.

They'll never have another deal like Wal-Mart again. They will never be signed to a major label ever again. That's just the way it is.

Revelation sold as well as it did because it was an album of hits. I have friends that threw the CD of new songs right in the trash.

So what. He bought the CD's. I don't think Wal-Mart cares why he bought them or what he did with them after he gave them his money. The fact is that Revelation sold in its debut week the same as Eclipse did in an entire YEAR. THAT is what Wal-Mart cares about, and the fact that they ordered a bunch of CD's that nobody wanted to buy.

Journey was very fortunate to get a second deal from Walmart. I'm glad they used that small window of opportunity to do something as sonically ambitious as Eclipse.[/qoute]

I'm sure you are glad they have not released anything since because that is the result of it.

Touting the underperforming sales of Eclipse as some harbinger of the end makes zero sense.

You are misrepresenting what I said, again. It is the end of releasing albums with any major deal like Wal-Mart, or signing with any major label like Sony. This latest fiasco will eventually end their touring success as well.

The album made more of an impact than the 2 cds (Red 13, Gens) preceding it.

So what. You didn't have Wal-Mart ordering a million copies of the CD that were never sold either.

You sound exactly like the doom and gloom Perryheads claiming that Arrival's chart performance signaled the immediate end.

Yeah, except I have years and years of being right. Journey has not released ANYTHING since Eclipse. I'm right. Perryheads were wrong, Journey continued on. Eclipse was a huge financial failure for Wal-Mart, there is no denying that. Also, this is not the first time I've said this about Eclipse. I said it way back when Eclipse came out, Andrew even said I was wrong, that Journey would keep recording. Well, I wasn't wrong.

[The_Noble_Cause]

They'll never have another deal like Wal-Mart again. They will never be signed to a major label ever again. That's just the way it is.

So pretty much exactly where they were before Arnel and the fluke one-off success of Revelation. Got it.

So what. He bought the CD's. I don't think Wal-Mart cares why he bought them or what he did with them after he gave them his money. The fact is that Revelation sold in its debut week the same as Eclipse did in an entire YEAR. THAT is what Wal-Mart cares about, and the fact that they ordered a bunch of CD's that nobody wanted to buy.

Wal-Mart's quarterly profits are not indicative of anything. Several classic rock bands - like Loverboy - never even got invited back to the table for a second Walmart exclusive release.

Personally, I'm glad Wal-Mart lost their ass on Eclipse. Terrible company.

I'm sure you are glad they have not released anything since because that is the result of it.

There's many variables as to why there hasn't been a new album since Eclipse. Jon's been vocally reluctant to release new full length albums ever since Arrival. He also seems to take his cues from other rock bands, like The Stones, which have not released original new material since the early 2000s.

You are misrepresenting what I said, again. It is the end of releasing albums with any major deal like Wal-Mart, or signing with any major label like Sony.

So pretty much exactly where they were before Arnel and the fluke success of Revelation. Got it.

So what. You didn't have Wal-Mart ordering a million copies of the CD that were never sold either.

Nearly all of the post-Perry releases have been financial disappointments in one way or another. You are acting as if every album prior to Eclipse was a smash success. Generations barely cracked the Billboard 200 and the US label, Sanctuary, closed shop.

Yeah, except I have years and years of being right.

Your track record of predictions makes Madame Cleo look good. I recall you on here openly doubting JSS's ability to cover the material. You were wrong on that. When it came to TapeGate, which nearly destroyed the band from within, you completely missed it. It goes on and on.

Journey has not released ANYTHING since Eclipse. I'm right. Perryheads were wrong, Journey continued on. Eclipse was a huge financial failure for Wal-Mart, there is no denying that. Also, this is not the first time I've said this about Eclipse. I said it way back when Eclipse came out, Andrew even said I was wrong, that Journey would keep recording. Well, I wasn't wrong.

New music is coming. Get ready.

[Monker]

They'll never have another deal like Wal-Mart again. They will never be signed to a major label ever again. That's just the way it is.

So pretty much exactly where they were before Arnel and the fluke one-off success of Revelation. Got it.

Exactly. They lost all of the traction they gained after releasing a #1 platinum album with Revelation. They will never have that type of deal again, nor will they be on a label like Sony.

Wal-Mart's quarterly profits are not indicative of anything. Several classic rock bands - like Loverboy - never even got invited back to the table for a second Walmart exclusive release.

Loverboy's sales and contracts have nothing to do with Journey's.

I'm sure you are glad they have not released anything since because that is the result of it.

There's many variables as to why there hasn't been a new album since Eclipse. Jon's been vocally reluctant to release new full length albums ever since Arrival. He also seems to take his cues from other rock bands, like The Stones, which have not released original new material since the early 2000s.

And, I never said this kinda stuff until the complete failure of Eclipse.

You are misrepresenting what I said, again. It is the end of releasing albums with any major deal like Wal-Mart, or signing with any major label like Sony.

So pretty much exactly where they were before Arnel and the fluke success of Revelation. Got it.

Yep.

So what. You didn't have Wal-Mart ordering a million copies of the CD that were never sold either.

Nearly all of the post-Perry releases have been financial disappointments in one way or another. You are acting as if every album prior to Eclipse was a smash success. Generations barely cracked the Billboard 200 and the US label, Sanctuary, closed shop.

Those previous releases were not following a huge comeback success like Revelation and a huge investment like what Walmart had, and huge expectations like Walmart had. I remember this forum playing guessing games on how long it would take Eclipse to go platinum (never), how many hit singles it would have (0), etc. It went NOWHERE.

Yeah, except I have years and years of being right.

Your track record of predictions makes Madame Cleo look good.[/quote]

You can try to distract with weird arguments like that all you want. But, it doesn't change the fact that Journey has not released an album with deal similar to Walmart, and they are not releasing an album on a label like Sony. I am right, and I have been for almost ten years. Those are just the facts.

New music is coming. Get ready.

You have been saying that for years now, and you have been consistently wrong. With Neal's lawsuit and Ross' counter lawsuit, I will not be surprised if Nightmare asks the courts to stop Neal from releasing any new music, or touring, using the name "Journey" until these things are settled. Don't know how the court will react, because Neal can argue that is how he and others make a living...but I think Nightmare would have a good argument to stop any album being released...since they have not released one in nearly 10yrs.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Exactly. They lost all of the traction they gained after releasing a #1 platinum album with Revelation.

If Eclipse also came packaged with another cd of hits and a dvd of hits, like Revelation did, you might have a point here.
There was never any proof that consumers were clamoring for new standalone Journey music.

They will never have that type of deal again,

Most band don't.
Other Walmart original material exclusives - Foreigner, Loverboy, etc.- were one and done.
The framing that Journey is failing because they no longer have a Walmart deal is just not based in any sort of reality whatsoever.

...nor will they be on a label like Sony.

Again, if Sony can reconcile with TOTO, they can certainly make amends with an even bigger U.S. band like Journey. Question is, would Journey even want to?

Loveryboy's sales and contracts have nothing to do with Journey's.

Context matters. Most successful rock bands do not have ongoing Walmart deals - including bands, like The Eagles, that had successful releases with Walmart.

And, I never said this kinda stuff until the complete failure of Eclipse.

So if you remained silent as Red 13 and Generations were given away as coasters, why should anyone take you seriously now? You obviously have an ulterior agenda.

Those previous releases were not following a huge comeback success like Revelation and a huge investment like what Walmart had, and huge expectations like Walmart had. I remember this forum playing guessing games on how long it would take Eclipse to go platinum (never), how many hit singles it would have (0), etc. It went NOWHERE.

Arrival didn't follow a huge comeback success? Try again. Even after the Grammy nominated platinum TBF, Arrival still failed to crack the top 20.

You can try to distract with weird arguments like that all you want. But, it doesn't change the fact that Journey has not released an album with deal similar to Walmart, and they are not releasing an album on a label like Sony. I am right, and I have been for almost ten years. Those are just the facts.

You are the one who boasted about having multiple years of being right.
Well, on the biggest issue since the band reformed (TapeGate), you were not only wrong, you were fucking clueless.
Your prescient powers don't mean JACK.

You have been saying that for years now, and you have been consistently wrong. With Neal's lawsuit and Ross' counter lawsuit, I will not be surprised if Nightmare asks the courts to stop Neal from releasing any new music, or touring, using the name "Journey" until these things are settled. Don't know how the court will react, because Neal can argue that is how he and others make a living...but I think Nightmare would have a good argument to stop any album being released...since they have not released one in nearly 10yrs.

Can't wait to have a shiny new Journey cd in my hands. It's going to be a good one.

[Monker]

Exactly. They lost all of the traction they gained after releasing a #1 platinum album with Revelation.

If Eclipse also came packaged with another cd of hits and a dvd of hits, like Revelation did, you might have a point here.
There was never any proof that consumers were clamoring for new standalone Journey music.

You keep making this very out of place arguments. Do you really think Walmart cares WHY somebody bought the Revelation package? Don't you not believe that all they care about is getting your money? Evolution was a platinum album, even if you don't double the sales due to a multi disc set. Eclipse sold 1/8 the number of copies of Revelation. Walmart expected a near platinum album and not 1/8 of that so they ordered that many CD's. They lost a huge amount of money. That is historical fact. Journey will never get another Walmart deal, or be on a label like Sony.

They will never have that type of deal again,

Most band don't.
Other Walmart original material exclusives - Foreigner, Loverboy, etc.- were one and done.
The framing that Journey is failing because they no longer have a Walmart deal is just not based in any sort of reality whatsoever.

And, Journey isn't Foreigner or Loverboy, or even REO. Journey will never again have a deal like Walmart, or be on a label like Sony ever again.

...nor will they be on a label like Sony.

Again, if Sony can reconcile with TOTO, they can certainly make amends with an even bigger U.S. band like Journey. Question is, would Journey even want to?

Journey will never be signed to Sony ever again.

Context matters. Most successful rock bands do not have ongoing Walmart deals - including bands, like The Eagles, that had successful releases with Walmart.

Journey will never have another deal like Walmart ever again.

And, I never said this kinda stuff until the complete failure of Eclipse.

So if you remained silent as Red 13 and Generations were given away as coasters, why should anyone take you seriously now? You obviously have an ulterior agenda.

I didn't remain silent. I always said that Journey would release more music, prior to Eclipse. But, after Eclipse I have consistently said that Journey will not have another Walmart deal or be signed to a label like Sony ever again.

Those previous releases were not following a huge comeback success like Revelation and a huge investment like what Walmart had, and huge expectations like Walmart had. I remember this forum playing guessing games on how long it would take Eclipse to go platinum (never), how many hit singles it would have (0), etc. It went NOWHERE.

Arrival didn't follow a huge comeback success? Try again. Even after the Grammy nominated platinum TBF, Arrival still failed to crack the top 20.

Sony did not invest in Arrival. Even Kevin Shirley said that Sony expected Arrival to sell a certain number of copies, and no more. Sony did not lose anything with Arrival, not the way that Walmart did. Arrival was also a different lineup, a new start. TBF was an ending.

TBF was not nominated for a Grammy. "When You Love a Woman" was.

You have been saying that for years now, and you have been consistently wrong. With Neal's lawsuit and Ross' counter lawsuit, I will not be surprised if Nightmare asks the courts to stop Neal from releasing any new music, or touring, using the name "Journey" until these things are settled. Don't know how the court will react, because Neal can argue that is how he and others make a living...but I think Nightmare would have a good argument to stop any album being released...since they have not released one in nearly 10yrs.

Can't wait to have a shiny new Journey cd in my hands. It's going to be a good one.

[/quote]

Yeah, and a lot of Steve Perry fans can't wait to buy a concert ticket.

[The_Noble_Cause]

You keep making this very out of place arguments. Do you really think Walmart cares WHY somebody bought the Revelation package? Don't you not believe that all they care about is getting your money?

Not sure what to tell you. Maybe go join a Walton Bros. forum? I’m passionate about Journey – not Wal-Mart’s poor business decisions.

Evolution was a platinum album, even if you don't double the sales due to a multi disc set. Eclipse sold 1/8 the number of copies of Revelation.

I never said anything about inflating the # of units sold. I simply said Revelation sold as well as it did because it contained free shit – both a cd of hits and a DVD of hits.
If consumers didn’t come back for more with Eclipse, it’s also entirely possible they weren’t overly impressed with Revelation.

Walmart expected a near platinum album and not 1/8 of that so they ordered that many CD's. They lost a huge amount of money.

Walmart is one of the richest companies in the world. I could not give less of a shit.

That is historical fact. Journey will never get another Walmart deal, or be on a label like Sony.

According to the band, Sony did make an offer after Arrival and they walked. Given the state of the industry, I think many labels would be quick to sign them. I would like to see them either stay indie or sign with "Inside Out" as they have done a great job with Kansas.

And, Journey isn't Foreigner or Loverboy, or even REO. Journey will never again have a deal like Walmart, or be on a label like Sony ever again.

Classic rock bands aren’t being offered Walmart deals anymore. Your whole point is moot.

Journey will never be signed to Sony ever again.

Maybe. Maybe not. It doesn’t really matter to me anyway.

Journey will never have another deal like Walmart ever again.

This would only mean something if other bands (ex. The Eagles, Bruce, Foreigner) were still signed up with WalMart. They aren’t.
If Journey’s lack of another Wal-Mart deal had any value, then surely you could point to bands that maintained ties with Walmart, right?

Sony did not invest in Arrival. Even Kevin Shirley said that Sony expected Arrival to sell a certain number of copies, and no more.

And who do you think paid Kevin Shirley?
Unlike subsequent releases, Arrival wasn’t produced independently by Nomota. Sony was on the hook for all of the costs. You don’t have a clue.

Sony did not lose anything with Arrival, not the way that Walmart did.

My understanding is, and Drew can correct me if I'm wrong, Walmart only handled the distribution end of Revelation and Eclipse.
Everything from the recording, mixing, and packaging was handled independently by Nomotoa.

Arrival was also a different lineup, a new start. TBF was an ending.

Excuses...excuses...excuses.

Yeah, and a lot of Steve Perry fans can't wait to buy a concert ticket.

No comparison whatsoever. Schon/Cain are still actively writing and touring on a regular basis.

[Memorex]

Some one with massive amounts of patience and stability should really comb this board and write a book about the interactions between the two of you. If would have to be 27 volumes, no doubt.

[Monker]

The dates of Steve Perry coming back to the fold differ a little from folklore. Strange Medicine was released mid-1994. The legend was that he fell ill toward the end of the tour, Journey was looking to move on, he then decided to come back in order to remain in Journey. Or some version of those things.

My God, I've been arguing for DECADES that this was not true. I have said there was a meeting in 1994 that determined the lineup of Journey, and not too long after Perry canceled his tour dates. This confirms that I was right. It happened MUCH earlier than was believed.

I just don't know really. Going back and reading it, it could be that all the moves made in 1994 were about Herbie revoking the license, thereby putting it back solely in the hands of Nightmare so that Steve Perry could no longer control it via Elmo Partners and only have his say as a member of Nightmare. Especially when the language of the initial action in Feb is pretty negative towards Perry (which I didn't see till just a moment ago).

EXACTLY. Journey was together with: Neal Schon, Gregg Rolie, Kevin Chalfant, Jonathan Cain and Steve Smith

THAT is the lineup Herbie wanted to move forward with. So, Herbie ended the agreement with Elmo partners by using the clause about being an active band. This version of the band even started writing songs together. Chalfant has released at least one. It started hitting the news that this lineup was together...it was not a well kept secret. Then in November they had a meeting to decide the lineup. Steve Perry was there, Kalodner was there. Kalodner wanted the Escape lineup. Perry would only join if Herbie was no longer managing. So, Herbie, Chalfant, and Gregg were out...and Perry was in. The December meeting finalized and formalized things.

And that could include the actions in December as well. The complaint does say that it was unanimous in December that Journey would reform, which is why I assumed Perry had already agreed to be a member.

If you read the minutes from the 12/30 meeting, it's really short. It's like they met, had a vote, meeting over. That why I am saying it was just to formalize things. At that point they knew the Journey lineup...they just had to get everybody to sign on to it.

Funny how common this stuff probably is and we just don't hear much from other bands. I guess if you are around for 47 years and all the main members are still living and have a hand in it, and it's still making massive amounts of money, there are bound to be issues. I bet LRB wish their fights could have been over this kind of money. In 2020!

When all the issues with LRB start, they had already went through their reunion years earlier. Azoff was involved in that, too.
Like Journey, he wanted the original singers and as close to the most popular version who could get - and he got it. Then, one by one, members started leaving and being replaced. Eventually, all of the "original" members of the band had left: Glen Shorrock, Beeb Birtles, Graeham Goble, Derek Pellucci. That left Stephen Housden as the longest serving member. So, he assumed control of the name.

Here is where similarities start...When Birtles, Shorrock and Goble wanted to get together, they called themselves "The Voices of Littler River Band", or "The Original Little River Band". Housden started suing because he owned the rights to the LRB name. He won...they had to call themselves "Birtles Shorrock and Goble" or "BSG", and have no references to the LRB name. In fact, they had to change the cover of their live album/DVD because it had a marquee pic that read "The Original Voices of the Little River Band", They left the marquee pic but put X's over "The Little River Band "..."XXX XXXXXX XXXXX XXXX". It's pretty funny to look at....it was to spite Housden who sued them over it because it was in too big of a font or something ridiculous.

Anyway, I don't see how Neal wins this...he looks foolish, IMO.

[Monker]

I'm not going to reply to all of this...

First of all, I have consistently said, "like a Walmart deal..." and "or a label like Sony". I know they are not the same thing, or do the same thing.

As for classic rock bands still getting deals like the Walmart deal....Steve Perry had an exclusive deal with Target to release Traces with extra songs, and various packages. So, yes, they do still happen.

Walmart had to order and pay for the CD's, and do all the advertising. That is how Journey made their money...they did not lose anything. See article posted after this post for details on how these things work.

Steve Perry will never tour again, and Journey will not have another deal like the Walmart deal, or be signed to a label like Sony.

You keep making this very out of place arguments. Do you really think Walmart cares WHY somebody bought the Revelation package? Don't you not believe that all they care about is getting your money?

Not sure what to tell you. Maybe go join a Walton Bros. forum? I’m passionate about Journey – not Wal-Mart’s poor business decisions.

Evolution was a platinum album, even if you don't double the sales due to a multi disc set. Eclipse sold 1/8 the number of copies of Revelation.

I never said anything about inflating the # of units sold. I simply said Revelation sold as well as it did because it contained free shit – both a cd of hits and a DVD of hits.
If consumers didn’t come back for more with Eclipse, it’s also entirely possible they weren’t overly impressed with Revelation.

Walmart expected a near platinum album and not 1/8 of that so they ordered that many CD's. They lost a huge amount of money.

Walmart is one of the richest companies in the world. I could not give less of a shit.

That is historical fact. Journey will never get another Walmart deal, or be on a label like Sony.

According to the band, Sony did make an offer after Arrival and they walked. Given the state of the industry, I think many labels would be quick to sign them. I would like to see them either stay indie or sign with "Inside Out" as they have done a great job with Kansas.

And, Journey isn't Foreigner or Loverboy, or even REO. Journey will never again have a deal like Walmart, or be on a label like Sony ever again.

Classic rock bands aren’t being offered Walmart deals anymore. Your whole point is moot.

Journey will never be signed to Sony ever again.

Maybe. Maybe not. It doesn’t really matter to me anyway.

Journey will never have another deal like Walmart ever again.

This would only mean something if other bands (ex. The Eagles, Bruce, Foreigner) were still signed up with WalMart. They aren’t.
If Journey’s lack of another Wal-Mart deal had any value, then surely you could point to bands that maintained ties with Walmart, right?

Sony did not invest in Arrival. Even Kevin Shirley said that Sony expected Arrival to sell a certain number of copies, and no more.

And who do you think paid Kevin Shirley?
Unlike subsequent releases, Arrival wasn’t produced independently by Nomota. Sony was on the hook for all of the costs. You don’t have a clue.

Sony did not lose anything with Arrival, not the way that Walmart did.

My understanding is, and Drew can correct me if I'm wrong, Walmart only handled the distribution end of Revelation and Eclipse.
Everything from the recording, mixing, and packaging was handled independently by Nomotoa.

Arrival was also a different lineup, a new start. TBF was an ending.

Excuses...excuses...excuses.

Yeah, and a lot of Steve Perry fans can't wait to buy a concert ticket.

No comparison whatsoever. Schon/Cain are still actively writing and touring on a regular basis.

[Monker]

From the NY Times:

For Some Music, It Has to Be Wal-Mart and Nowhere Else
By Robert Levine
June 9, 2008

One of the biggest music events of the summer has already taken place in Fayetteville, Ark. From Tuesday through Thursday last week, the Bud Walton Arena at the University of Arkansas presented shows by Journey, the country singer Keith Urban, the “American Idol” personality Carrie Underwood and the alternative rock group All-American Rejects.

The occasion that brought this all-star line-up together? Not a festival or cause but Wal-Mart Stores’ annual shareholders meeting. Wal-Mart was the largest music retailer in the country last year, so musicians (and their labels) are eager to maintain good relationships, appearing in the special concerts for the chain, which are also open to the public.

During her performance, Ms. Underwood volunteered that a Wal-Mart had recently opened in her hometown, Checotah, Okla., and Keith Urban changed his lyrics from “Goodbye, city, I’m country-bound” to “I’m Wal-Mart-bound.” And the retailer is using its leverage to aggressively pursue new deals.

On Tuesday Wal-Mart started selling on an exclusive basis a three-disc collection by the popular 1980s band Journey called “Revelation.” The difference, however, is that there is no middleman: the album was bought directly from the band without the help of a record label. Journey went right to Wal-Mart and kept most of the money a record company would normally take as profit for the group. Last year Wal-Mart made a similar deal with the Eagles, who like Journey are represented by Front Line Management, the nation’s largest music management company.

The deals highlight the changing dynamics of the music industry as once-powerful labels decline because of the migration to digital downloads. To fill the gap, musicians are scrambling to connect with fans, and Wal-Mart is using these exclusive deals to assume a new role: hit maker.

The Eagles’ double disc, “Long Road Out of Eden,” sold 711,000 copies in its first week and three million since its release, according to Nielsen SoundScan, impressive numbers at a time when CD sales are declining. Journey sold 45,000 albums in its first three days on sale, and Irving Azoff, founder and chief executive of Front Line Management and a music industry veteran who ran MCA Records in the ’80s, predicted that it would sell more than 80,000 copies in its first week. That is probably enough to debut in the top five, and significantly more than its last album sold in total.

“With the downturn, the labels couldn’t match the marketing commitments that Wal-Mart could make,” Mr. Azoff said. “It was well in excess of anything a label could do.”

Front Line took on some of the traditional work of a record label, producing a video and promoting songs to radio. But most of the marketing was done at Wal-Mart itself. The chain ran print, radio and television advertisements that promoted the exclusive availability of the Eagles album. Stores display the Eagles and Journey albums in several locations, not just the music department, and this week some stores had the Journey DVD playing on their big-screen televisions.

In some ways, the arrangements that Wal-Mart has made with Journey and the Eagles represent the mainstream equivalent of the path that artists like Radiohead and Nine Inch Nails have taken by releasing albums on the Internet without a traditional label.

“It just goes to show you that fewer artists need to be associated with record companies,” said Larry Mestel, chief executive of Primary Wave Music Publishing and former chief operating officer of Virgin Records. “They don’t need to give up a big chunk of money to the record companies when they’re iconic. They can go direct to Wal-Mart and make four to five dollars per CD.”

It’s hard to tell how much traditional labels are threatened by the prospect of artists’ selling directly to retailers. New albums from more established acts can be less profitable if they have negotiated a higher royalty rate. And although the Eagles are reliable sellers, Journey is what industry executives delicately refer to as a “heritage act,” a steady summer concert attraction that sells relatively few albums of new material.

One reason the Eagles and Journey albums have sold so many copies is their price: $11.98. That’s an unusually low retail price, especially for “Revelation,” which consists of one CD of new songs, one CD of new renditions of Journey classics and one DVD of a recent concert performance. But one of Wal-Mart’s goals in promoting such releases is drawing customers into stores with a bargain they can’t find anywhere else.

“The goal with almost everything we do is to figure out how to make some kind of a profit,” said Gary Severson, Wal-Mart’s head of home entertainment. “But this can also give us the opportunity to add to the brand, and I hope we’ve accomplished that as well.”

Exclusive album deals have been happening for some time with that goal in mind. Wal-Mart and Best Buy, the two largest physical retailers of music, often get special editions of albums, with exclusive songs or video footage. In 2005, Wal-Mart made a deal to become the exclusive distributor of Garth Brooks albums, including a new collection of outtakes. But the Eagles and Journey are the first two major acts that have released albums of new material that are available at only one retailer. And although record labels tread carefully around such deals, for fear of upsetting rival stores, bands need not be so sensitive.

This summer Wal-Mart will carry an exclusive release by the young country singer Taylor Swift in a promotion that also calls for Ms. Swift to promote L.E.I. jeans. (In this case, Ms. Swift’s label was part of the deal.) And Mr. Azoff said that he was already talking to Wal-Mart about an exclusive deal for Fleetwood Mac’s next release. “Classic rock really works there,” Mr. Azoff said.

Front Line is only one of the major management companies that are trying to take on roles that have traditionally been filled by labels. The Nettwerk Music Group, which manages Avril Lavigne and Sarah McLachlan, has set up custom labels for some small artists. And Q-Prime, which manages Metallica, recently hired an executive to start an independent label of sorts.

The idea of treating the label as a middleman that can be cut out fits Wal-Mart’s approach to cost-cutting. In the past the chain has pushed record labels to lower their wholesale prices, arguing that customers would buy more CDs if they were less expensive.

“I think that with any product, when the price goes up, the demand goes down,” said Mr. Severson. “Sometimes it’s about the right artist with the right product at the right price.”

For Journey, some of the success of “Revelation” is also about the right timing. For a band that hit its commercial peak in the early ’80s, Journey has enjoyed an unlikely revival in the last few years. The song “Don’t Stop Believin’ ” has been licensed for “Family Guy,” “Scrubs,” “Laguna Beach” and, most famously, the last episode of “The Sopranos,” and the exposure increased the song’s sales on Apple’s iTunes store. Journey, which has gone through several vocalists, recently hired a new singer, Arnel Pineda, whom Journey’s guitarist, Neal Schon, discovered singing the band’s covers on YouTube.

But Journey would almost certainly not be selling as many albums without the support of Wal-Mart.

“Shelf space has shrunk so much over the last five years that for anyone to give you shelf space and exposure is a big deal,” said Terry McBride, chief executive of Nettwerk Music Group. “Should the labels be worried? There’s been a move away from the labels for a number of years now. And it’s not necessarily their fault. The shelf space to have those records sell just isn’t there. That’s the market reality.”