Trial By Fire - Journey's best album?

[danielb]

The production sounds like a million bucks, the songs are really strong and Perry's delivery is full of melancholy and grace. Their most mature album but possibly also their best?

[Memorex]

The production sounds like a million bucks, the songs are really strong and Perry's delivery is full of melancholy and grace. Their most mature album but possibly also their best?

Agreed.

[Gideon]

Yes, I’ve said so for years. Perry sounds great, but he’s at his weakest vocally, which gives the other four the opportunity to shine. It’s Neal, Jon, Smith, and Ross at their best. Phenomenal musicianship, writing, production. Could’ve used a few more rockers, but otherwise: it’s my favorite Journey album.

[jrnyman28]

Meh. It gets a special place because of the reunion but not their best. Perry did great with what he had but his voice had clearly deteriorated. A few songs are derivative and as good as some songs are, there are just too many mellow tracks. Still, all that is easier to overlook but, to me, there was never any cohesion amongst the band members. It always felt like five individuals just doing their thing.

[Journey/Survivor]

My two main complaints about TBF is that there are too many light songs and Perry's voice had deteriorated drastically. His voice was still good enough to listen to, but it couldn't compare with his voice on Raised On Radio, much less the far superior Escape.

[danielb]

Lead singers are not preserved forever. Perry has his different phases and has adapted well (Traces). His range had lessened by Trial By Fire but his emotional delivery was very much intact in songs like Message of Love, Forever in Blue, Trial By Fire, well, all of them. Strong album and stronger than everything that would follow after, even though Arrival was a great album in its own right.

[yulog]

TBF always seemed more like a Perry solo album than a Journey one.

[Onestepper]

Eh, I've said for years that TBF allowed each of the members to shine individually and as a group. But no where near their best album.

As a reunion piece it was great to hear. But I'd not take it over Escape or even some of the Rolie material.

[Eric]

It's one of my least favorites, but nobody can deny how great the production is.

Bit of napper... I never crave to hear any of the songs. It's somebody else's vision of how Journey should sound like as an aging band. I think Arrival is much more Journey sounding than TBF.

[Monker]

The production sounds like a million bucks, the songs are really strong and Perry's delivery is full of melancholy and grace. Their most mature album but possibly also their best?

Well, IMO, Infinity and obviously Escape take the crown for best Journey album...by a long way over TBF.

TBF is mediocre, IMO. It's a bit better than ROR and I'm glad TBF is Perry's final Journey album instead of ROR. But, to me a large portion of it sounds like "Beyond the Thunder" and "Piano With a View" with vocals. In a way that could be expected because it is the same era...but too many songs all sounding the same is not a good thing to me. Arrival also has some of that but not as bad as TBF...and IMO, Arrival is a much better album. And, I could do without Journey doing Reggae music, LOL..I guess it may be there just for a fun laugh, but still.

[FamilyMan]

Ok, this thread sent me down a rabbit hole - wanting to revisit why this album wasn't better (agreeing it's not their best). I wondered who wrote most of the songs, so I googled it. While every track seems to have "Perry, Cain, Schon" listed as writers, another name is also listed on many tracks as writer: John Bettis. I honestly don't recall his name associated with Journey. And I went back and looked: Cain doesn't mention him in his book when talking about writing TBF. Wikipedia also claims Gregg Rolie said he was "invited and then quickly uninvited" to the TBF sessions - something else I'd never heard.

[jestor92]

I think it’s their best sounding from a production standpoint album by far. Musically it’s the 3rd best album from the Perry-Schon-Cain trio. It suffered from to many slower tracks which is something Traces also was hurt by. I wish they would’ve explored more of the R&B style in the vein of Girl Can’t Help It and I’ll Be Alright Without You instead of what they did. Some great cuts on the album though.

[Memorex]

This album was a God send to me. I was commuting across states and working long hours, having to sleep in my car some nights when I was too tired to drive home. I got an early copy of Message of Love and played it endlessly. I cannot hear that song without thinking about those nights in the car alone. And then the CD was released and I could not get enough. This is my trapped on an island album.

All this talk about Perry losing some of the shine - I feel like he more than made up for it in emotion, melody, etc. To me, all things considered, I far prefer his voice on TBF than any other album. The rest of the band was on fire. I feel like it was their tightest sound.

But I realize each person has their own connection to the various phases of Journey. This just happened to be my strongest.

[Journey/Survivor]

Ok, this thread sent me down a rabbit hole - wanting to revisit why this album wasn't better (agreeing it's not their best). I wondered who wrote most of the songs, so I googled it. While every track seems to have "Perry, Cain, Schon" listed as writers, another name is also listed on many tracks as writer: John Bettis. I honestly don't recall his name associated with Journey. And I went back and looked: Cain doesn't mention him in his book when talking about writing TBF. Wikipedia also claims Gregg Rolie said he was "invited and then quickly uninvited" to the TBF sessions - something else I'd never heard.

Originally the reunion lineup was going to be.....

Kevin Chalfant: Lead Vocals
Neal Schon: Guitar
Jonathan Cain: Keyboards
Gregg Rolie: Keyboards & I assume Lead Vocals
Ross Valory: Bass
Steve Smith: Drums

Then Perry found out about that lineup planning on doing an album, and then he suddenly wanted to get back with Journey, so Chalfant was out.

I assume that Perry did not want Rolie to be part of the band. And Cain probably didn't want Rolie back either?

It's a shame that Rolie wasn't part of the reunion also.

[UrbanCoyote]

I recall seeing an interview with Steve Perry 1994, FTLOSM tour, Toronto, where the interviewer asks Steve about Journey getting back together. You can tell this was the first he had heard of it and was taken back. The look on his hace was pretty funny. Makes me wonder who he called after that interview was over.

[Art Vandelay]

I do remember the interview with Much Music in Canada. When I saw it, I thought it would have been a good thing at the time, with a Chalfont led Journey and a Steve Perry solo career both happening. Best of both worlds.

But this did end up being one of my favorite albums for a number of personal reasons.

I kind of remember talks of Aynsley Dunbar being in the original Chalfont reunion talks as well. Having two drummers on stage. I could be wrong, but that sounds like something I've heard more than once.

[Monker]

Ok, this thread sent me down a rabbit hole - wanting to revisit why this album wasn't better (agreeing it's not their best). I wondered who wrote most of the songs, so I googled it. While every track seems to have "Perry, Cain, Schon" listed as writers, another name is also listed on many tracks as writer: John Bettis. I honestly don't recall his name associated with Journey. And I went back and looked: Cain doesn't mention him in his book when talking about writing TBF. Wikipedia also claims Gregg Rolie said he was "invited and then quickly uninvited" to the TBF sessions - something else I'd never heard.

Originally the reunion lineup was going to be.....

Kevin Chalfant: Lead Vocals
Neal Schon: Guitar
Jonathan Cain: Keyboards
Gregg Rolie: Keyboards & I assume Lead Vocals
Ross Valory: Bass
Steve Smith: Drums

Then Perry found out about that lineup planning on doing an album, and then he suddenly wanted to get back with Journey, so Chalfant was out.

I assume that Perry did not want Rolie to be part of the band. And Cain probably didn't want Rolie back either?

It's a shame that Rolie wasn't part of the reunion also.

Close, but not exactly right. On one of Perry's canceled FTLOSM dates in Florida, they held a band meeting to decide the future of Journey. The lineup you said above was ready to start recording an album...this is where the songs in Chalfant's underwear drawer come from. But, Sony wanted the Escape lineup. But, Perry did not want to work with Herbie. So, eventually enough money was put on the table by Sony to convince the band to axe Herbie and take Perry back, and let Chalfant and Gregg go. Sony got their Escape lineup for a reunion.

Then Neal goes on interviews saying that they were going to get Perry back even if they have to hold him down and torture him...he was already back and Neal knew it. They just did not want to make it public because Perry was still trying to finish his tour...which he eventually canceled remaining dates.

[Monker]

I do remember the interview with Much Music in Canada. When I saw it, I thought it would have been a good thing at the time, with a Chalfont led Journey and a Steve Perry solo career both happening. Best of both worlds.

But this did end up being one of my favorite albums for a number of personal reasons.

I kind of remember talks of Aynsley Dunbar being in the original Chalfont reunion talks as well. Having two drummers on stage. I could be wrong, but that sounds like something I've heard more than once.

I never heard about Aynsley being a part of this. What I understand is this came from The VU and then The Storm, then Chalfant taking the mic for Journey at the Herbie roast. That planted the idea. That prompted Herbie to get the Journey name back from Elmo Brothers LLC (as shown in the recent Valory/Smith law suites) and putting together a new version of Journey with Gregg and Chalfant and no Steve Perry. Then Perry went on tour. That pushed things a bit more...why tour small venues like theaters when they could be touring stadiums as Journey? That got Kalodner and Sony involved.

There is also an interview with a magazine ("Karrang!", I think) where Perry was asked if he knew about the reunion with Chalfant and Gregg. He said he had heard the rumors. They pushed him on what he thought about it and he said they all had their time to go out and do other projects and solo things and he felt this was his time to do the same and what they were now doing did not concern him...and he was kinda angry answering the question.

There are also other interviews with FTLOSM band members which imply Perry wanted to continue being solo and just needed to "get this Journey thing out of the way" first. I never believed he was particularly enthused by the reunion and really wanted to concentrate on FTLOSM and continuing his solo career. The debacle on both sides of this, IMO, could be why he became so turned off by the music "business"...he was manipulated into joining the reunion, felt pressured into getting hip surgery, had singles promised for FTLOSM but they were not promoted, etc...it would definitely turn me off, too.

[OlHoag]

Not sure I'd say it was their best album. However, it was by far their best album to put on, while relaxing in a dark room and fully absorbing and consuming what was being played.

[youkeepmewaiting]

For me, it's their best album. It's certainly my favourite and is probably the album i've listened to 2nd to most ever by any band

Still She Cries is a master piece

I'll happily always skip Castles Burning though

[Journey/Survivor]

For me, it's their best album. It's certainly my favourite and is probably the album i've listened to 2nd to most ever by any band

Still She Cries is a master piece

I'll happily always skip Castles Burning though

To Me, it was vitally important that the band did put Castles Burning, One More, Can't Tame The Lion and in the case of the Japanese release of the album, I Can See It In Your Eyes on the album to save it from too many ballads overall.

Still She Cries is a great song. But there are too many soft songs like that on the album overall.

[Journey/Survivor]

I kind of remember talks of Aynsley Dunbar being in the original Chalfont reunion talks as well. Having two drummers on stage. I could be wrong, but that sounds like something I've heard more than once.

I was told back in the late 1990s that if the Trial By Fire tour had happened that Prairie Prince was going to be the drummer on the tour. I don't know for sure if that is true or not?

[Art Vandelay]

I kind of remember talks of Aynsley Dunbar being in the original Chalfont reunion talks as well. Having two drummers on stage. I could be wrong, but that sounds like something I've heard more than once.

I was told back in the late 1990s that if the Trial By Fire tour had happened that Prairie Prince was going to be the drummer on the tour. I don't know for sure if that is true or not?

I don't believe that at all. Steve Smith would have been the touring drummer, no questions asked. That was the idea behind the reunion, bringing the Escape lineup together again. Prairie Prince is a very small blip in Journey's history. Aside from being involved in the formation, I don't even see the reason to associate him with the band.

[Journey/Survivor]

I kind of remember talks of Aynsley Dunbar being in the original Chalfont reunion talks as well. Having two drummers on stage. I could be wrong, but that sounds like something I've heard more than once.

I was told back in the late 1990s that if the Trial By Fire tour had happened that Prairie Prince was going to be the drummer on the tour. I don't know for sure if that is true or not?

I don't believe that at all. Steve Smith would have been the touring drummer, no questions asked. That was the idea behind the reunion, bringing the Escape lineup together again. Prairie Prince is a very small blip in Journey's history. Aside from being involved in the formation, I don't even see the reason to associate him with the band.

What I was told at the time was that Smith's intention for Trial By Fire was the same as it was with The Storm, to perform on the album but not the tour.

And if that's true, they would have needed a drummer for the tour.

I would have thought that if Smith was not going to tour that they would have just asked Castronovo at that point?

It was a friend of mine who was a huge fan of Prairie Prince's drumming from The Tubes who told me that about PP being the drummer on the tour. He had read it or heard it from some source who was connected to Prairie Prince, or at least CLAIMED to be connected to PP.

So, I don't know if it was true or not? But that's what I was told at the time.

[Journey/Survivor]

Aynsley Dunbar was at the Walk Of Fame ceremony with Journey. But so were Smith and Castronovo.

[Monker]

What I was told at the time was that Smith's intention for Trial By Fire was the same as it was with The Storm, to perform on the album but not the tour.

And if that's true, they would have needed a drummer for the tour.

I would have thought that if Smith was not going to tour that they would have just asked Castronovo at that point?

It was a friend of mine who was a huge fan of Prairie Prince's drumming from The Tubes who told me that about PP being the drummer on the tour. He had read it or heard it from some source who was connected to Prairie Prince, or at least CLAIMED to be connected to PP.

So, I don't know if it was true or not? But that's what I was told at the time.

It's not true. It's pretty documented that Steve Smith had a specific amount of time carved out to do the Journey reunion. He, along with the rest of the band, waited for Steve Perry to do "something'" to be able to tour. After his time expired, he went back to doing his Jazz thing. Then he turned down joining for the Vacations Over tour and Arrival because he said if there was no reunion, then there was no point. And, being inactive during that time damaged his Jazz career.

So, why would he sit around doing NOTHING, waiting for Steve Perry, if he had no intentions of touring anyway? It makes no sense.

There also a band debate on whether to tour first or do an album first. So, either way, Steve Smith was going to do both.

I could see Prairie Prince or Aynsley being considered for Vacations Over and/or Arrival...but not the TBF reunion tour.

[FamilyMan]

https://rockcelebrities.net/neal-schon- ... um-failed/

[Loneman1]

https://rockcelebrities.net/neal-schon-shares-the-real-reason-steve-perrys-final-journey-album-failed/

“Steve Perry was an amazing singer, and I hope to hear from him again. I hope that he puts out a solo record because I know a lot of people miss his vocals, and everybody blames me for him not being in this band, but I just got to laugh at it because it really wasn’t my decision for him not to be in this band.”

While it may not have been entirely Neal's decision, both Jon and Neal made the choice to go forward without Perry since they were the other 2/3rds of the Elmo deal, but it was Jon that drew the short straw to actually call Perry to tell him the news according to Jon's book. So no, Neal isn't entirely to blame, but let's not try to paint the picture that Jon talked down to Neal basically as an employee telling him what was going to happen with Perry, come on now.

[Eric]

https://rockcelebrities.net/neal-schon-shares-the-real-reason-steve-perrys-final-journey-album-failed/

“Steve Perry was an amazing singer, and I hope to hear from him again. I hope that he puts out a solo record because I know a lot of people miss his vocals, and everybody blames me for him not being in this band, but I just got to laugh at it because it really wasn’t my decision for him not to be in this band.”

While it may not have been entirely Neal's decision, both Jon and Neal made the choice to go forward without Perry since they were the other 2/3rds of the Elmo deal, but it was Jon that drew the short straw to actually call Perry to tell him the news according to Jon's book. So no, Neal isn't entirely to blame, but let's not try to paint the picture that Jon talked down to Neal basically as an employee telling him what was going to happen with Perry, come on now.

I think he meant that they waited for him in 84-85 and then again 87-96 and then again 97-98... so he sees the decision to not be in the band as being on Perry and not him. He's not wrong as I see it. I think Schon would have played 9 months of the year the last 50+ years if it were up to him.

[Loneman1]

https://rockcelebrities.net/neal-schon-shares-the-real-reason-steve-perrys-final-journey-album-failed/

“Steve Perry was an amazing singer, and I hope to hear from him again. I hope that he puts out a solo record because I know a lot of people miss his vocals, and everybody blames me for him not being in this band, but I just got to laugh at it because it really wasn’t my decision for him not to be in this band.”

While it may not have been entirely Neal's decision, both Jon and Neal made the choice to go forward without Perry since they were the other 2/3rds of the Elmo deal, but it was Jon that drew the short straw to actually call Perry to tell him the news according to Jon's book. So no, Neal isn't entirely to blame, but let's not try to paint the picture that Jon talked down to Neal basically as an employee telling him what was going to happen with Perry, come on now.

I think he meant that they waited for him in 84-85 and then again 87-96 and then again 97-98... so he sees the decision to not be in the band as being on Perry and not him. He's not wrong as I see it. I think Schon would have played 9 months of the year the last 50+ years if it were up to him.

From that standpoint I agree, Perry did pretty much orchestrate his own exit whether he knew it at the time or not. He did probably think that Neal and Jon didn't have the balls to kick him out and was perhaps willing to just keep them hanging on for his surgery decision indefinitely, thereby sidelining Journey once again. Many people do seem to focus on Perry being ousted from the band in '98 as a huge disservice to Perry, but casual fans I guess forget that the dude ditched the band in the middle of tour plans back in '87 leaving the rest of the guys high and dry for many years.