MR

This is pretty interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ6DbH-X-L0

I mean, yeah. He's miming. At least he recorded a recent take of his voice and used that. He's 77 years old.

Pelata wrote:I mean, yeah. He's miming. At least he recorded a recent take of his voice and used that. He's 77 years old.

But, it is not just that. He actually took a live recording and pitch corrected it and used that. So, you are not only not hearing him sing live, what you are hearing is actually not his real voice but a voice that was manipulated to be in tune.

The odds are that most of you guys know this already. But Motley Crue have been faking most of their performances in recent years. Not just vocals, but instruments too.

Monker wrote:

Pelata wrote:I mean, yeah. He's miming. At least he recorded a recent take of his voice and used that. He's 77 years old.

But, it is not just that. He actually took a live recording and pitch corrected it and used that. So, you are not only not hearing him sing live, what you are hearing is actually not his real voice but a voice that was manipulated to be in tune.

A lot of bands use live auto-tuning these days anyway.

I'll admit to this being a little disappointing since I counted Eagles and Henley among the last of the true-blue musicians. But, it is what it is, I suppose. He's too old to pull it off night after night and he loves money.

And here we are.

I saw them live about 2 weeks before the 3/8/24 video was produced. I'll always believed that they were singing to a back track, or they weren't 100% live. Didn't think about miming, but I guess it makes sense now.

Journey/Survivor wrote:The odds are that most of you guys know this already. But Motley Crue have been faking most of their performances in recent years. Not just vocals, but instruments too.

Vince is a living meme cuz he sings so bad anyway...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pdQnZLEWNo

Monker wrote:

Journey/Survivor wrote:The odds are that most of you guys know this already. But Motley Crue have been faking most of their performances in recent years. Not just vocals, but instruments too.

Vince is a living meme cuz he sings so bad anyway...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pdQnZLEWNo

If Vince is miming, the entire band are idiots.

Monker wrote:

Journey/Survivor wrote:The odds are that most of you guys know this already. But Motley Crue have been faking most of their performances in recent years. Not just vocals, but instruments too.

Vince is a living meme cuz he sings so bad anyway...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pdQnZLEWNo

That was hilarious.

This YouTuber did a very pro job with this analysis. Briefly, during TapeGate, we had a poster / singer (not sure he wants to be named), doing a similar thing comparing vocal waves from Augeri shows. It found the same similarities.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:This YouTuber did a very pro job with this analysis. Briefly, during TapeGate, we had a poster / singer (not sure he wants to be named), doing a similar thing comparing vocal waves from Augeri shows. It found the same similarities.

What two YouTube videos were analyzed? And, what two YouTube videos are the best example?

Monker wrote:

The_Noble_Cause wrote:This YouTuber did a very pro job with this analysis. Briefly, during TapeGate, we had a poster / singer (not sure he wants to be named), doing a similar thing comparing vocal waves from Augeri shows. It found the same similarities.

What two YouTube videos were analyzed? And, what two YouTube videos are the best example?

Back then, we were not using YouTube. We had bootlegs - some right from the soundboard. The soundwave comparisons were posted in his replies. Unsure what software he used. The singer in question later took the analysis down (for obvious reasons).

Paul Stanley became a fraud lip syncing for Kiss the last several years. Total disgrace. Even worse are some fans giving him a free pass.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

Monker wrote:

The_Noble_Cause wrote:This YouTuber did a very pro job with this analysis. Briefly, during TapeGate, we had a poster / singer (not sure he wants to be named), doing a similar thing comparing vocal waves from Augeri shows. It found the same similarities.

What two YouTube videos were analyzed? And, what two YouTube videos are the best example?

Back then, we were not using YouTube. We had bootlegs - some right from the soundboard. The soundwave comparisons were posted in his replies. Unsure what software he used. The singer in question later took the analysis down (for obvious reasons).

Didn't TapeGate end up being Journey using Augeri's 'Journey 2000' live vocal tracks flown in?

Pelata wrote:Didn't TapeGate end up being Journey using Augeri's 'Journey 2000' live vocal tracks flown in?

For the most part, yes, but songs not on the Vegas 2001 DVD were also used like Only The Young and Chain Reaction. During the UK tour, they brought out some deeper cuts like Edge of the Blade. It became obvious that they had recorded a lot of the back catalogue with Augeri. Probably for promotional purposes.

AR wrote:Paul Stanley became a fraud lip syncing for Kiss the last several years. Total disgrace. Even worse are some fans giving him a free pass.

It was during the End of the Road tour and the reason I wouldn’t attend the show.

The lip syncing and things of that nature are the reason I don’t see concerts anymore. If I to hear canned music I’ll pop a “live” album on.

jestor92 wrote:

AR wrote:Paul Stanley became a fraud lip syncing for Kiss the last several years. Total disgrace. Even worse are some fans giving him a free pass.

It was during the End of the Road tour and the reason I wouldn’t attend the show.

The lip syncing and things of that nature are the reason I don’t see concerts anymore. If I to hear canned music I’ll pop a “live” album on.

Actually started at the Kiss Kruise in 2019

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT86r0i2fD0&t

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

Monker wrote:

The_Noble_Cause wrote:This YouTuber did a very pro job with this analysis. Briefly, during TapeGate, we had a poster / singer (not sure he wants to be named), doing a similar thing comparing vocal waves from Augeri shows. It found the same similarities.

What two YouTube videos were analyzed? And, what two YouTube videos are the best example?

Back then, we were not using YouTube. We had bootlegs - some right from the soundboard. The soundwave comparisons were posted in his replies. Unsure what software he used. The singer in question later took the analysis down (for obvious reasons).

Well, first of all YouTube was around in 2005 through 2006 when all of this happened. Also, it is 20yrs later and lot of other videos have been uploaded by now.

Second, analyzing the sound waves on a WAV file is no where even close to what Fil does. Fil is looking at the actual pitch, the notes, that are being hit, or missed sharp or flat, specifically on the vocal...ignoring all the extra "noise". This is FAR more accurate than anything that existed 20yrs ago.

So, I'll ask again, what are two videos that can be used to show tapes were being used. A video from the 2001 Vegas concert, and what to compare it to?

I hope this is not turning into a “denying tapegate happened” debate. Jesus.

Monker wrote:Well, first of all YouTube was around in 2005 through 2006 when all of this happened.

It certainly was in its infancy, but nobody here was using it. Fans were literally still mailing each other Augeri concert bootleg CDs and DVDs via snail mail.

Monker wrote:Also, it is 20yrs later and lot of other videos have been uploaded by now.

No one is stopping you from making a YT video denying the reality of what happened. Go make one and have fun!

Monker wrote:Second, analyzing the sound waves on a WAV file is no where even close to what Fil does. Fil is looking at the actual pitch, the notes, that are being hit, or missed sharp or flat, specifically on the vocal...ignoring all the extra "noise". This is FAR more accurate than anything that existed 20yrs ago.

Again, I couldn't tell you what software was used. It clearly showed the same vocals night after night. The only time the waves deviated is when Augeri's mic went live for low range ad-libbing at the end of songs.

Monker wrote:So, I'll ask again, what are two videos that can be used to show tapes were being used. A video from the 2001 Vegas concert, and what to compare it to?

I'm not re-litigating this. All the footage is still out there if someone wants to do a serious analysis again.

On the topic of the 2005 Generations concert DVD filmed in Dallas, the same singer / vocal analyzer would say "the lead vocals were from tracks. It could not be released commercially" AND "Augeri's vocals were problematic. They didn't always match up with the movement of his lips during extreme close up footage."

Now, what is it called when the vocals don't match the performance? Oh right. Lip syncing.

Monker wrote:So, I'll ask again, what are two videos that can be used to show tapes were being used. A video from the 2001 Vegas concert, and what to compare it to?

I have a “puffy microphone” era Generations tour show on DVD from Baltimore. Club show shot close up. Not in circulation to my knowledge. I’d have to dig it up but I have it if that is what you are looking for.

Hi everyone...

I'm watching Fil's video now. What he is doing is EXACTLY what was done with the Journey bootlegs in 2005/2006. The two bootleg shows were brought into a digital multitrack program and panned hard left and hard right. Listening on headphones, every single nuance from the left and the right - the 2 separate shows - was identical. It was as if you were hearing a single recorded vocal performance. These tracks lined up perfectly because, even back in 2005, Journey (as most bands) were playing along with a click track. So all performances were exactly the same length, tempo, etc from show to show and could be easily compared (as they are in the Henley comparison).

Images of the panned waveforms were used to illustrate how this was done, and it was done for multiple shows, not just one versus another like Fil is doing here.

In fact, if I recall, some recordings were compared from totally different tours, and they were still identical. The only difference between Fil's analysis and what was done back in 2005 is that Fil made a YouTube video about it to report his analysis, and the Augeri analysis was done here on this message board in written format.

Jeremey wrote:Hi everyone...

I'm watching Fil's video now. What he is doing is EXACTLY what was done with the Journey bootlegs in 2005/2006. The two bootleg shows were brought into a digital multitrack program and panned hard left and hard right. Listening on headphones, every single nuance from the left and the right - the 2 separate shows - was identical. It was as if you were hearing a single recorded vocal performance. These tracks lined up perfectly because, even back in 2005, Journey (as most bands) were playing along with a click track. So all performances were exactly the same length, tempo, etc from show to show and could be easily compared (as they are in the Henley comparison).

Images of the panned waveforms were used to illustrate how this was done, and it was done for multiple shows, not just one versus another like Fil is doing here.

In fact, if I recall, some recordings were compared from totally different tours, and they were still identical. The only difference between Fil's analysis and what was done back in 2005 is that Fil made a YouTube video about it to report his analysis, and the Augeri analysis was done here on this message board in written format.

I was trying to respectfully leave your name out of this. I appreciate you speaking up and all of your expertise!

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

Jeremey wrote:I was trying to respectfully leave your name out of this. I appreciate you speaking up and all of your expertise!

Sure thing, yep lots of us were there at the time and watched it all unfold, but I have a pretty good recollection of it plus some insight from the band themselves during my association with them. Nothing is ever totally black and white and it was a complex situation but it almost brought down the band at the time, I believe there was some national press about it which resulted in immediate ban on the backing track support, which caused significantly worse issues during that 2006 tour. Luckily Neal had Jeff's number otherwise Deen probably would have found himself out front and his drum tech behind the kit!

Why is it so difficult for anybody on this forum to point to two videos on YouTube to compare? I don't care what Jeremy did 20yrs ago. I am not trying relitigate anything. All I am asking for is two videos on YouTube. What are they?

Monker wrote:Why is it so difficult for anybody on this forum to point to two videos on YouTube to compare? I don't care what Jeremy did 20yrs ago. I am not trying relitigate anything. All I am asking for is two videos on YouTube. What are they?

I'm still not sure what you are asking for.

Are you asking to see videos of the concerts that were compared 20 years ago?

Are you asking to see a video of someone comparing steve Augeri's live voice to the backing tapes?

Are you asking to watch 2 different Don Henley videos?

There were NO videos compared in 2005? The recordings were soundboard recordings sent from someone connected to the band to Deano.

TNC told you this, that's why it's confusing about what you're asking for. Why are you asking for videos of something that happened 20 years ago?

I couldn't even keep a single Frontiers video on YouTube away from Journey's lawyers. They followed Frontiers around on YouTube and issued takedowns for every video we ever posted, for the simple reason that they didn't want me being compared to Arnel. No other Journey tribute bands had ever been targeted in that way before or since. It's like we never even existed. You think they have left videos online from 20 years ago that show Steve Augeri lip syncing? Of course not. There were legal agreements made that kept most of that footage from ever seeing the light of day.

And in 2005, yes YouTube did exist but in no way were people holding up iPhones making videos of concerts back then. You'd have to have smuggled in a video camera. YouTube of 2005 was dramatically different, and used in very different ways, than it is today in 2024.

But the audio technology used in 2005 is exactly the same as it is today, and it was the same back then that is being used in this recent Henley video. There is nothing being used in Fil's video that wasn't used in 2005. In fact, aside from nearly 20 years of updates and plugins, the digital workstation that was used at the time is exactly the same one still in use today.

Jeremey wrote:

Monker wrote:Why is it so difficult for anybody on this forum to point to two videos on YouTube to compare? I don't care what Jeremy did 20yrs ago. I am not trying relitigate anything. All I am asking for is two videos on YouTube. What are they?

I'm still not sure what you are asking for.

Are you asking to see videos of the concerts that were compared 20 years ago?

Are you asking to see a video of someone comparing steve Augeri's live voice to the backing tapes?

Are you asking to watch 2 different Don Henley videos?

There were NO videos compared in 2005? The recordings were soundboard recordings sent from someone connected to the band to Deano.

Why are you asking for videos of something that happened 20 years ago?

This is not that difficult.

I want two urls to two YouTube videos from two different concerts that show Augeri using the same vocal track. Two videos that would show Augeri doing the same thing Don Henley was doing in the two videos Fil compared.

What I want to do is send them to Fil to see if he will do an in depth analysis as he did with the Eagles. I already Emailed him with the general info of using the 2001 Vegas DVD for Journey concerts from 2005 - 2006 when Augeri left. But, to save him the time, I would like some die hard Tapegater to give an example. I compared a 2005 "Open Arms" to the 2001 Vegas show and I feel I hear different expressions in his voice and I am not confident they would match.

So, what two videos should Fil compare to get a match?

Eagles part 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlEpVfnvIac

Monker wrote:

Jeremey wrote:

Monker wrote:Why is it so difficult for anybody on this forum to point to two videos on YouTube to compare? I don't care what Jeremy did 20yrs ago. I am not trying relitigate anything. All I am asking for is two videos on YouTube. What are they?

I'm still not sure what you are asking for.

Are you asking to see videos of the concerts that were compared 20 years ago?

Are you asking to see a video of someone comparing steve Augeri's live voice to the backing tapes?

Are you asking to watch 2 different Don Henley videos?

There were NO videos compared in 2005? The recordings were soundboard recordings sent from someone connected to the band to Deano.

Why are you asking for videos of something that happened 20 years ago?

This is not that difficult.

I want two urls to two YouTube videos from two different concerts that show Augeri using the same vocal track. Two videos that would show Augeri doing the same thing Don Henley was doing in the two videos Fil compared.

What I want to do is send them to Fil to see if he will do an in depth analysis as he did with the Eagles. I already Emailed him with the general info of using the 2001 Vegas DVD for Journey concerts from 2005 - 2006 when Augeri left. But, to save him the time, I would like some die hard Tapegater to give an example. I compared a 2005 "Open Arms" to the 2001 Vegas show and I feel I hear different expressions in his voice and I am not confident they would match.

So, what two videos should Fil compare to get a match?

I think that would be up to you, man. For some reason you seem to believe that the technology in 2005 was far less superior than what Fil used in this video. I'm telling you - the technology was EXACTLY THE SAME. Fil isn't comparing videos, they just HAPPEN TO BE the source of the audio he's comparing?

You're asking to get copies of the original bootlegs from 20 years ago. Sorry man, I don't know why anyone would have kept that around but I will tell you this. It was proven, using the exact same technique that Fil used, panning hard left and right the separate recordings to produce an identical unison lead vocal, back in 2005 with concert audio bootlegs from the soundboard.

I don't know what you think it will accomplish but there is nothing stopping you from trying to find that stuff if it's so important to you. I have no clue why you'd be making that demand of people on this message forum - have at it!?

"Tapegate" wasn't a conspiracy. I don't know why it's so difficult. It was proven here, it was reported in national news, and shortly thereafter Steve Augeri was fired from the band. Not sure what else you're looking for here, man.

Also - Wow, Monker, I've known you for more than 20 years I guess

I am one old fuckin' dude.