MR

I've been trying to come to an understanding of what it is that makes Arrival Journey's last great album. And what it is that makes you not think of Perry even for a single moment. It must be down to the combination of Augeri having a voice of his own, nothing like Perry's, and the abundance of great songs (varied too). All topped off by a lush production.

Many of these songs could easily have been cheesy - a church in the rain, a sad congregation - yet they come across as heartfelt. Again, I think Augeri deserves a lot of the credit for the way he delivers. His voice just works in these songs.

Ultimately, perhaps the reason why it worked so well is because they didn't seem to try too hard to be Journey. With every subsequent album, coninciding with the recruitment of Pineda, they sounded like a light version of Journey.

danielb wrote:I've been trying to come to an understanding of what it is that makes Arrival Journey's last great album. And what it is that makes you not think of Perry even for a single moment.

That's very nice of you to say.
However, I think the immediate critical and fan reception (both positive and negative) def. mentioned Augeri sounding too much like Perry or not Perryish enough. Such comparisons are unfortunately inevitable.
Personally, I agree with you - aside from from the Whoa-oh-Whoa Sam Cooke-ism found on "All the Way," Augeri didn't sound all that Perryish. I believe he mentioned to Andrew that he blew his voice out 2 weeks before recording Arrival. He said it gave him a little Rod Stewart-esque grit. I hear it.

danielb wrote:Many of these songs could easily have been cheesy - a church in the rain, a sad congregation - yet they come across as heartfelt. Again, I think Augeri deserves a lot of the credit for the way he delivers. His voice just works in these songs.

I think the album's one-two-punch of With You Love followed immediately by Lifetime of Dreams is pretty cheesy. They almost sound like the same song at the start! Nice songs tho and Augeri does sing his heart out.

danielb wrote:Ultimately, perhaps the reason why it worked so well is because they didn't seem to try too hard to be Journey. With every subsequent album, coninciding with the recruitment of Pineda, they sounded like a light version of Journey.

Vocals aside, the key to Arrival's success can be attributed to a few factors:

- Working with Sony they had a proper budget.

-A&R man, Kalodner, forced them to work with outside writers (like Jack Blades) and it helped compensate for missing Perry. Those Blades co-penned tracks (Higher Place, I Got A Reason, World Gone Wild) remains some of the strongest stuff in the post-SP era. Some Arrival songs - like Signs of Life (co-written with Cain's wife) - sound as fresh as the day I first hear them.

- Can & Schon had something to prove and gave a shit.

- Kevin Shirley made them rehearse and focus.

Journey had nothing to lose.
They were still with SONY and had John Kalodner John Kalodner.
Arrival has glimpses of where a Perry-less band could go.

BUT

Perry with a perm haunted them.
BTM had a very pro-Perry edit.
Losing the Armageddon placement hurt.
The U.S. release was improved by the additions, but ended up being a little too much. Felt like filler.

Arrival was great but I still prefer Eclipse. Arnel was a better singer than Augeri, Eclipse rocked more and harder, and was bolder in its direction.

But I'm also the guy who says Trial By Fire is their best album so what the fuck do I know?

Gideon wrote:Arrival was great but I still prefer Eclipse. Arnel was a better singer than Augeri, Eclipse rocked more and harder, and was bolder in its direction.

But I'm also the guy who says Trial By Fire is their best album so what the fuck do I know?

It definitely rocked harder, I'll give you that. I don't think any of the releases since leaving Sony have really come close to the quality of Arrival. They've all been good, with Generations being the weakest.

Outside writers

Something to prove

Everyone being on the same team

Writing naturally good Journey sounding music without forcing (for example Revelation is a good album but it’s very much written to be a ‘Journey sounding like Journey’ album)


Side note - TBF is indeed their best album


I still really like Eclispe (Tantra is so bombastic and fantastic, such a wild song to write)

youkeepmewaiting wrote:I still really like Eclispe (Tantra is so bombastic and fantastic, such a wild song to write)

They def. branched out there. Thematically, it reminds me of Colors of The Spirit from TBF.

"Resonate" from Eclipse is a top 3er for me. What a fantastic fucking song.

Remember this forum from 2008-2012? The good ol' days.

I’m of the opinion that Arrival is the best post Perry release and each release following it has been worse the further we’ve been removed from Perry. IMO Arrival could be the best release they had since Frontiers if they trimmed some of the fat off. You can say that however with Trial By Fire and Generations as well.

I honestly don’t really care much for the albums with Arnel, but there have been some solid tracks. I just preferred Augeri’s voice. I do think Arnel is a more gifted singer than Steve.

jestor92 wrote:I’m of the opinion that Arrival is the best post Perry release and each release following it has been worse the further we’ve been removed from Perry. IMO Arrival could be the best release they had since Frontiers if they trimmed some of the fat off. You can say that however with Trial By Fire and Generations as well.

I honestly don’t really care much for the albums with Arnel, but there have been some solid tracks. I just preferred Augeri’s voice. I do think Arnel is a more gifted singer than Steve.

I'd say that Pineda has/had the stronger and "better" voice. But Augeri had a stronger soulful feel to his singing.

Me personally. Eclipse is my favorite post Frontiers Journey album.

youkeepmewaiting wrote:
Writing naturally good Journey sounding music without forcing (for example Revelation is a good album but it’s very much written to be a ‘Journey sounding like Journey’ album)

Sr, this is how subjective music is. I love Revelation because, to ME, it sounds like a more modern Journey NOT writing to sound ”like” Journey.

jrnyman28 wrote:Sr, this is how subjective music is. I love Revelation because, to ME, it sounds like a more modern Journey NOT writing to sound ”like” Journey.

I don't know how you can say this. While promoting Eclipse, Neal even made a comment alluding to Revelation "I don't see the point of repeating the same song with different chords." It's a good album, but they don't branch out much. It was packaged alongside the Greatest Hits and it sounds strategically retro and familiar.

What hurt arrival for me is the many many sappy ballads. Including the God awful not that way.
Without that Napster leak it would have been even worse.

jrnyman28 wrote:

youkeepmewaiting wrote:Sr, this is how subjective music is. I love Revelation because, to ME, it sounds like a more modern Journey NOT writing to sound ”like” Journey.

Arnel had everything going for him in terms of his voice. Unfortunately, his foreign accent was/is a detracting factor. The lyrics on Revelation are not exactly Pulitzer material and when Arnel sings them it sounds like he is singing words from a page. Which he probably was. Also, the backing vocals are buried in the mix. They should have listened more to how they produced backing vocals on IBAWY.

I agree that Neal and Jon were more into Journey for Arrival and every album since seems they were sleepwalking through them. Also, they need somebody to edit the albums better and make the songs tight. Perry's Journey was very polished. And even a small thing like the inserts used to have the correct lyrics in them. For recent Journey, nobody cares to take five or ten minutes to make sure lyrics included are correct and don't have any silly mistakes. Eclipse and Freedom could have been so much better with just a little snip here and there to make the songs flow better. The problem with Arrival was too many ballads. Instead of adding two more rockers, they should have just axed some of the ballads. Less is more!

danielb wrote:Arnel had everything going for him in terms of his voice. Unfortunately, his foreign accent was/is a detracting factor. The lyrics on Revelation are not exactly Pulitzer material and when Arnel sings them it sounds like he is singing words from a page. Which he probably was. Also, the backing vocals are buried in the mix. They should have listened more to how they produced backing vocals on IBAWY.

Regarding the accent.....

On the re-recorded hits on Revelation it's noticeable and distracting. On the new songs on Revelation, you don't notice it.
It's obvious Shirley spent more time on the new tracks.

JourneyHard wrote:Also, they need somebody to edit the albums better and make the songs tight.

Some of the Eclipse songs were left long for a reason. There was no sense in catering for radio, as radio won't really touch them.

On Freedom, I think the tune, After Glow, needs a trimming. The end just sort of meanders. Otherwise, I can't really think of anything.

danielb wrote:

jrnyman28 wrote:

youkeepmewaiting wrote:Sr, this is how subjective music is. I love Revelation because, to ME, it sounds like a more modern Journey NOT writing to sound ”like” Journey.

Arnel had everything going for him in terms of his voice. Unfortunately, his foreign accent was/is a detracting factor. The lyrics on Revelation are not exactly Pulitzer material and when Arnel sings them it sounds like he is singing words from a page. Which he probably was. Also, the backing vocals are buried in the mix. They should have listened more to how they produced backing vocals on IBAWY.

My two biggest complaints about Arnel are his accent on Revelation and partially Eclipse. I also feel like he over sings the songs. When he sings in a lower range he sounds fantastic, but he tended to overdo it on some songs and it hurt the sound. He had an excellent voice though. I don’t think that the song writing helped on any of his releases. Revelation just seemed like a bunch of rehashed crap. Freedom sucks. Eclipse had some interesting stuff but Cain’s lyrics were brutal for the music

JourneyHard wrote:I agree that Neal and Jon were more into Journey for Arrival and every album since seems they were sleepwalking through them. Also, they need somebody to edit the albums better and make the songs tight. Perry's Journey was very polished. And even a small thing like the inserts used to have the correct lyrics in them. For recent Journey, nobody cares to take five or ten minutes to make sure lyrics included are correct and don't have any silly mistakes. Eclipse and Freedom could have been so much better with just a little snip here and there to make the songs flow better. The problem with Arrival was too many ballads. Instead of adding two more rockers, they should have just axed some of the ballads. Less is more!

While Perry's perfectionism and attention to detail is legendary, let's not diminish the role Herbie Herbert played in much of what you wrote above. Herbie was the operator that kept that machine running and those personalities from imploding.

It was during the Raised on Radio sessions (or preparing for) that Perry and Herbert had an all-out battle for control of the band. Schon and Cain were, according to them, on the side of Perry. Cain recalled sitting at the table with the band and Lee Phillips going back and forth with Herbie... apparently the falling out was about shares as a band member and having final authority over band decisions.

Of course there are 6 sides to every story involving this band.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:Regarding the accent.....

On the re-recorded hits on Revelation it's noticeable and distracting. On the new songs on Revelation, you don't notice it.
It's obvious Shirley spent more time on the new tracks.

Cain said that during the recording sessions for the Revelation re-records, he felt bad how much he leaned on Arnel for proper diction and pronunciation. He actually said he felt a little guilty about it, like a "slave driver." I think Cain did the bulk of the producing on the re-records and Shirley focused primarily on the new songs.

Jeremey wrote:

The_Noble_Cause wrote:Regarding the accent.....

On the re-recorded hits on Revelation it's noticeable and distracting. On the new songs on Revelation, you don't notice it.
It's obvious Shirley spent more time on the new tracks.

Cain said that during the recording sessions for the Revelation re-records, he felt bad how much he leaned on Arnel for proper diction and pronunciation. He actually said he felt a little guilty about it, like a "slave driver." I think Cain did the bulk of the producing on the re-records and Shirley focused primarily on the new songs.

Thanks Jeremey. I don't hear it very much of the new songs, but it's all over the re-records. I believe AP's accent became an issue during the recording of Eclipse as well. But it is not my story to tell.

Jeremey wrote:

JourneyHard wrote:I agree that Neal and Jon were more into Journey for Arrival and every album since seems they were sleepwalking through them. Also, they need somebody to edit the albums better and make the songs tight. Perry's Journey was very polished. And even a small thing like the inserts used to have the correct lyrics in them. For recent Journey, nobody cares to take five or ten minutes to make sure lyrics included are correct and don't have any silly mistakes. Eclipse and Freedom could have been so much better with just a little snip here and there to make the songs flow better. The problem with Arrival was too many ballads. Instead of adding two more rockers, they should have just axed some of the ballads. Less is more!

While Perry's perfectionism and attention to detail is legendary, let's not diminish the role Herbie Herbert played in much of what you wrote above. Herbie was the operator that kept that machine running and those personalities from imploding.

It was during the Raised on Radio sessions (or preparing for) that Perry and Herbert had an all-out battle for control of the band. Schon and Cain were, according to them, on the side of Perry. Cain recalled sitting at the table with the band and Lee Phillips going back and forth with Herbie... apparently the falling out was about shares as a band member and having final authority over band decisions.

Of course there are 6 sides to every story involving this band.

I agree with this so strongly. People constantly underestimate Herbie's influence on this band and its success. I have become very tired of arguing it, and Perry vs. Journey, that I try to ignore it. The thread about Journey being successful without Perry is a great example. I absolutely do not believe that Herbie Herbert would have allowed Journey, his pet project (NOT Neal Schon's), to fail...Perry or no Perry. Without Herbie Herbert, Steve Perry would have been stuck on his uncle's turkey farm. Perry had given up on music and Herbie had to convince him to give Journey a try...and had to force the band to accept him. If it had not been Perry, it would have been somebody else....and NOT Fleischman. He was on his way out. But, this is another thread.

Perry's "perfectionism" also involves stories of destroying studios and delaying albums for years. It's not all a positive thing. It was also Herbie who cut "Ask the Lonely" and "Only the Young" from Frontiers. Which at THAT time allowed Journey to release a couple soundtrack singles in the time between Frontiers and ROR...a very smart move. Cutting songs from Arrival is something Herbie would have thought of and insisted on. Apparently, Neal's thought was to ADD songs after the Napster leak, not to cut them. Regardless of all this, Arrival is still my favorite post-Perry album - by a long way. Nothing else came close. IMO.

Monker wrote: It was also Herbie who cut "Ask the Lonely" and "Only the Young" from Frontiers. Which at THAT time allowed Journey to release a couple soundtrack singles in the time between Frontiers and ROR...a very smart move. Cutting songs from Arrival is something Herbie would have thought of and insisted on. Apparently, Neal's thought was to ADD songs after the Napster leak, not to cut them. Regardless of all this, Arrival is still my favorite post-Perry album - by a long way. Nothing else came close. IMO.

I can understand Neal's thinking, since people have already heard all these songs why remove any, it is better add songs they haven't heard so they will buy the record. Bad for the album itself, but makes some sense.

jrnyman28 wrote:

Monker wrote: Apparently, Neal's thought was to ADD songs after the Napster leak, not to cut them. Regardless of all this, Arrival is still my favorite post-Perry album - by a long way. Nothing else came close. IMO.

I can understand Neal's thinking, since people have already heard all these songs why remove any, it is better add songs they haven't heard so they will buy the record. Bad for the album itself, but makes some sense.

They did cut.
"I'm Not That Way" was taken off the US Arrival release.
I imagine that final sequencing decisions probably still came down to Kalodner/Sony at that point.
I think Herbie's touch (artwork, track listing) was sorely needed on EVERYTHING after Frontiers.

I do think Neal did a pretty good job sequencing Eclipse. It starts proggy and eventually gets more commercial and poppy.

Maybe Herbie should have sung for Perry as well?

I am sure he had a lot to do with their success but ultimately it came down to the trio of Cain/Perry/Schon. They were at their best with Smith and Valory but were also able to deliver the goods in a big way on Raised on Radio. TBF had its moments but the creative ship had sailed by that time, for the most part. ROR being the farewell of the original band. But what a way to go out. It was good for those years that it lasted.

danielb wrote:Maybe Herbie should have sung for Perry as well?

His voice is a better fit than Fleischman:
https://youtu.be/72eyYavSreY?t=298

Monker wrote:

danielb wrote:Maybe Herbie should have sung for Perry as well?

His voice is a better fit than Fleischman:
https://youtu.be/72eyYavSreY?t=298

I forgot all about his Sy Klopps thing! Dude had a decent voice for sure......sounds like he taught Perry everything he knows.

Loneman1 wrote:

Monker wrote:

danielb wrote:Maybe Herbie should have sung for Perry as well?

His voice is a better fit than Fleischman:
https://youtu.be/72eyYavSreY?t=298

I forgot all about his Sy Klopps thing! Dude had a decent voice for sure......sounds like he taught Perry everything he knows.

I was impressed by the soulfulness of his cover of Marvin Gaye's "Wherever I Lay My Hat (That's My Home)."
Sounded a little like Aaron Neville. I think Perry would give a nod of approval. Very credible.

danielb wrote:Maybe Herbie should have sung for Perry as well?

I am sure he had a lot to do with their success but ultimately it came down to the trio of Cain/Perry/Schon. They were at their best with Smith and Valory but were also able to deliver the goods in a big way on Raised on Radio. TBF had its moments but the creative ship had sailed by that time, for the most part. ROR being the farewell of the original band. But what a way to go out. It was good for those years that it lasted.

I would passionately disagree that the creative ship had sailed by TBF. It's a fantastic album, incredible songs

[/quote]

I was impressed by the soulfulness of his cover of Marvin Gaye's "Wherever I Lay My Hat (That's My Home)."
Sounded a little like Aaron Neville. I think Perry would give a nod of approval. Very credible.[/quote]



at 7:53 and 8:01 he's doing a few Perry mannerisms