MR

Going back listening to their entire catalogue, from start to finish.

After the first three albums, all meandering and anonymous, bam, it's all in place on Infinity. Perry's soaring vocals, their number one identifying factor, and Schon's melodic counterpart. Such a huge leap from the three albums that succeeded it.

I would say Perry has earned his share of any touring revenues from here to infinity

danielb wrote:Going back listening to their entire catalogue, from start to finish.

After the first three albums, all meandering and anonymous, bam, it's all in place on Infinity. Perry's soaring vocals, their number one identifying factor, and Schon's melodic counterpart. Such a huge leap from the three albums that succeeded it.

I would say Perry has earned his share of any touring revenues from here to infinity

If you are strictly, or mostly, only into AOR/Melodic-Rock. Then yes, the addition of Perry made the band way better! But if "you" are like me, and "you" love both Melodic Rock and Jazz-Fusion/Progressive-Rock. Then Perry didn't make the band better. He just changed them from one great style of music to another.

danielb wrote:Going back listening to their entire catalogue, from start to finish.

After the first three albums, all meandering and anonymous, bam, it's all in place on Infinity. Perry's soaring vocals, their number one identifying factor, and Schon's melodic counterpart. Such a huge leap from the three albums that succeeded it.

I would say Perry has earned his share of any touring revenues from here to infinity

Not to downplay Perry, but they were already heading into a more polished commercial direction w. Fleischman. His co-written song like WITS, Anytime, Winds of March, are all excellent. So to answer your question ("where would they have been"), I have faith that Herbie and their collective talents would have propelled them to some level of success. Perhaps not as big - but they may have retained more of that progressive edge too. However, we will never know....

Journey's success owes mostly to the trifecta of Perry, Schon, Cain. Rolie is a distant fourth. Unless you count Herbie, who is arguably as indispensable as Perry, Schon, or Cain.

Yes, Perry's probably the most individually important member, but Perry alone couldn't have reached Journey-tier success (compare the success of Street Talk to its two most proximate Journey albums, Frontiers and Raised on Radio).

No Cain means no Don't Stop Believin', Open Arms, Faithfully... or Separate Ways, Who's Cryin' Now, Send Her My Love, Be Good To Yourself, Only the Young, etc..

No Schon means no Journey to begin with.

I just used Google Gemini to ask it which of these 4 members of Journey was the most "important" to Journey. I then told it that I will name 4 members in alphabetical order based on last names. I listed Jonathan Cain. Steve Perry. Gregg Rolie. Neal Schon.

It responded back by ranking them as.......

#1 Neal Schon
#2 Steve Perry
#3 Jonathan Cain
#4 Gregg Rolie

Gemini described Schon as being the heartbeat and architect of the band. And said that without Schon, there is no Journey.

Journey/Survivor wrote:I just used Google Gemini to ask it which of these 4 members of Journey was the most "important" to Journey. I then told it that I will name 4 members in alphabetical order based on last names. I listed Jonathan Cain. Steve Perry. Gregg Rolie. Neal Schon.

It responded back by ranking them as.......

#1 Neal Schon
#2 Steve Perry
#3 Jonathan Cain
#4 Gregg Rolie

Gemini described Schon as being the heartbeat and architect of the band. And said that without Schon, there is no Journey.

Don't let AI tell you what you are supposed to think about music.

Art Vandelay wrote:

Journey/Survivor wrote:I just used Google Gemini to ask it which of these 4 members of Journey was the most "important" to Journey. I then told it that I will name 4 members in alphabetical order based on last names. I listed Jonathan Cain. Steve Perry. Gregg Rolie. Neal Schon.

It responded back by ranking them as.......

#1 Neal Schon
#2 Steve Perry
#3 Jonathan Cain
#4 Gregg Rolie

Gemini described Schon as being the heartbeat and architect of the band. And said that without Schon, there is no Journey.

Don't let AI tell you what you are supposed to think about music.

Oh, I definitely don't. But I did fully agree with their ranking. It was my own ranking before I ever asked them the question.

Now, if we are talking about favorite, then it's debatable for me on how I rank Cain and Rolie. It's more or less a tie.

They would’ve been forgotten by most by 85 without Perry

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

danielb wrote:Going back listening to their entire catalogue, from start to finish.

After the first three albums, all meandering and anonymous, bam, it's all in place on Infinity. Perry's soaring vocals, their number one identifying factor, and Schon's melodic counterpart. Such a huge leap from the three albums that succeeded it.

I would say Perry has earned his share of any touring revenues from here to infinity

Not to downplay Perry, but they were already heading into a more polished commercial direction w. Fleischman. His co-written song like WITS, Anytime, Winds of March, are all excellent. So to answer your question ("where would they have been"), I have faith that Herbie and their collective talents would have propelled them to some level of success. Perhaps not as big - but they may have retained more of that progressive edge too. However, we will never know....

EXACTLY!

It obviously would not have been the same. It might never have gotten so big. But it might’ve been really cool. And the band members might’ve been happier “together”. I argue this point all the time with people who say Perry “made” Journey’s success and saved them from being dropped. He didn’t do it alone, it wasn’t until Cain that they became superstars, and the changes Journey had already made when adding Fleischman may have been enough to calm Columbia down.

jrnyman28 wrote:

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

danielb wrote:Going back listening to their entire catalogue, from start to finish.

After the first three albums, all meandering and anonymous, bam, it's all in place on Infinity. Perry's soaring vocals, their number one identifying factor, and Schon's melodic counterpart. Such a huge leap from the three albums that succeeded it.

I would say Perry has earned his share of any touring revenues from here to infinity

Not to downplay Perry, but they were already heading into a more polished commercial direction w. Fleischman. His co-written song like WITS, Anytime, Winds of March, are all excellent. So to answer your question ("where would they have been"), I have faith that Herbie and their collective talents would have propelled them to some level of success. Perhaps not as big - but they may have retained more of that progressive edge too. However, we will never know....

EXACTLY!

It obviously would not have been the same. It might never have gotten so big. But it might’ve been really cool. And the band members might’ve been happier “together”. I argue this point all the time with people who say Perry “made” Journey’s success and saved them from being dropped. He didn’t do it alone, it wasn’t until Cain that they became superstars, and the changes Journey had already made when adding Fleischman may have been enough to calm Columbia down.[/quote Perry was out of music when Herbert contacted him.

Exactly!

Perry was out of music when Herbert contacted him about Journey. Perry needed Journey every bit as much as Journey needed Perry. There's a reason why Street Talk, as well as it did sell, didn't compare with Escape and Frontiers for success. And, we obviously don't know for sure that they could have gotten him, but supposedly, Journey were going to try to get Brad Delp to be Journey's singer. I wouldn't be even remotely surprised if a Perryless Journey in 1978 through 1987 would have been way bigger without Perry, than Perry would have been without Journey.

Journey/Survivor wrote:And, we obviously don't know for sure that they could have gotten him, but supposedly, Journey were going to try to get Brad Delp to be Journey's singer.

Never heard that one before. Interesting!

This is not even close. Steve Perry is the Michael Jordon, not just of Journey but of music. He makes everyone around him, and everyone who works with him better. Neal became a much more melodic player and grew significantly as a guitarist because of the way Perry guided the music. Cain wrote and arranged better songs once he was with Perry (nothing in his pre-Perry or post-Perry catalogue of songs matches his work with Perry). Faithfully and Open Arms are timeless masterpieces because of the way Perry ensured they were arranged and of course because of his vocals. Don't Stop Believin' waited damn near three and a half minutes to bring in the chorus because Perry knew building this pent up need for release would give the song it's maximum emotional impact. Yes Journey would have never started without Neal. Yes Cain was hugely important to the evolution of Journey and for writing some incredible songs. But without Perry's once in every 200 years voice with it's truly unique emotion/soul and his innate sense for finding exactly what a song requires, not to mention years of singing songs live that sounded as good or better than the recorded versions, Journey would be nowhere near what it is today or be able to tour to sold out arenas and stadiums. I appreciate what every member in that band has brought to the magic mix that is Journey, but if we are to be objectively honest, Journey's most valuable and "would never be where they are without him" member is only Steve Perry and its not even close.

ADALBL wrote:This is not even close. Steve Perry is the Michael Jordon, not just of Journey but of music. He makes everyone around him, and everyone who works with him better. Neal became a much more melodic player and grew significantly as a guitarist because of the way Perry guided the music. Cain wrote and arranged better songs once he was with Perry (nothing in his pre-Perry or post-Perry catalogue of songs matches his work with Perry). Faithfully and Open Arms are timeless masterpieces because of the way Perry ensured they were arranged and of course because of his vocals. Don't Stop Believin' waited damn near three and a half minutes to bring in the chorus because Perry knew building this pent up need for release would give the song it's maximum emotional impact. Yes Journey would have never started without Neal. Yes Cain was hugely important to the evolution of Journey and for writing some incredible songs. But without Perry's once in every 200 years voice with it's truly unique emotion/soul and his innate sense for finding exactly what a song requires, not to mention years of singing songs live that sounded as good or better than the recorded versions, Journey would be nowhere near what it is today or be able to tour to sold out arenas and stadiums. I appreciate what every member in that band has brought to the magic mix that is Journey, but if we are to be objectively honest, Journey's most valuable and "would never be where they are without him" member is only Steve Perry and its not even close.

I acknowledged that the band probably would not have achieved the same level of success without Perry.
That being said, the man doesn't walk on water. You claim that none of Cain's work matches his work with Perry. All true. But guess what? Very little of Perry's solo work matches his work with Journey. It goes both ways.

Wow.

There is no way Herbie Herbert would have allowed this band to fail. He would have found somebody else. Fleischman was already on his way out when someone pointed Herbie to Perry. If Perry did not exist, it would have been somebody else. Maybe Mickey Thomas who had not joined Jefferson Starship yet...just one example.

The question people forget to ask is: Where would Steve Perry have been without Herbie Herbert? Herbie had to talk him into even trying because he had given up on music. Herbie forced Perry on the band - they did not want him. Herbie is THE reason Perry was even hired.

In addition, there would be no Journey without Herbie. Forming a band around Neal's guitar was HERBIE's idea, not Neal Schon's. Herbie picked out the members. HERBIE fired Fleischman. HERBIE fired Aynsley and hired Steve Smith. HERBIE hired Jonathan...with Gregg's recommendation. HERBIE put Journey on a headlining tour after Infinity, when they had not really earned that status.

Journey would have been just as big with someone else in the band besides Steve Perry...Herbie would have found a way. I have no doubt about that.

Now, THAT SAID. The time from Arrival on has proven, without any doubt, that Steve Perry's influence on Journey is so huge that they have never been able to move on from it, and never will. It is cemented that way now...and has been for a while. The mild success Journey has had since Arrival is dwarfed by the monster success they had from Infinity through TBF.

ADALBL wrote: Neal became a much more melodic player and grew significantly as a guitarist because of the way Perry guided the music./quote]

And Perry has also acknowledged that Neal’s playing moved him so much it influenced his own writing AND singing.

ADALBL wrote: Journey would be nowhere near what it is today or be able to tour to sold out arenas and stadiums. I appreciate what every member in that band has brought to the magic mix that is Journey, but if we are to be objectively honest, Journey's most valuable and "would never be where they are without him" member is only Steve Perry and its not even close.

While, I think, everyone can agree Journey likely would never have reached the level they did without Perry, You can never know what would’ve happened if didn’t choices were made. And maybe the band, while not as popular or rich, may have been happier with their creative direction?

Monker wrote:
Now, THAT SAID. The time from Arrival on has proven, without any doubt, that Steve Perry's influence on Journey is so huge that they have never been able to move on from it, and never will. It is cemented that way now...and has been for a while. The mild success Journey has had since Arrival is dwarfed by the monster success they had from Infinity through TBF.

True the band, Neal, never seemed to have the confidence to stick to his guns about direction or ideas, I feel it is a false equivalence to compare the Perry-era to the post-Perry era. Not only were they fighting against the Perry sized hole. But the business had changed, the categorization of radio, no place to feature new music from “classic” bands. Really, how many Journey peer groups had any commercial success post-2000.

They probably would be the same kind of band that they are today. They’re great. Like I have said, I’ve seen the band play but never had the chance to see them play with Mister Perry. To me Mister Perry’s time with the band was no different than when Michael Jordan was with the Bulls or when Jerry Seinfeld was in Seinfeld; that time and place was just when spectacular bombastic magic was happening. These folks were megastars. Lightning struck. Michael Jackson. It’s just not the band’s time to be that incredible. I don’t think there are many megastars who are genuinely awestruck talented. Maybe I’m getting old. I don’t know. Seems more it’s like appearance and showmanship that’s on the stage now.. Lady Gaga is very good. But magic. Journey is great just not in the stratosphere when Mister Perry was front and center. Not the fault of the band members; magic is just not there to be had.

jrnyman28 wrote:

ADALBL wrote: Neal became a much more melodic player and grew significantly as a guitarist because of the way Perry guided the music./quote]

And Perry has also acknowledged that Neal’s playing moved him so much it influenced his own writing AND singing.

ADALBL wrote: Journey would be nowhere near what it is today or be able to tour to sold out arenas and stadiums. I appreciate what every member in that band has brought to the magic mix that is Journey, but if we are to be objectively honest, Journey's most valuable and "would never be where they are without him" member is only Steve Perry and its not even close.

While, I think, everyone can agree Journey likely would never have reached the level they did without Perry, You can never know what would’ve happened if didn’t choices were made. And maybe the band, while not as popular or rich, may have been happier with their creative direction?

I could care less if the band might have been happier with their creative direction if they had someone other than Perry. The creative direction that happened because of Perry gave the world timeless music, epic live performances and incredible songs that can be enjoyed for generations (no pun intended) to come. And I suspect everyone in that band if happy with the way it worked out overall as well. They know they wrote and recorded timeless masterpieces and it those songs and performances gave them lives that were far beyond what they could have dreamed.

No argument there.