Arnel Not a Perry Copycat

[STORY_TELLER]

No, being disingenuous is the idea that Perry and Perry alone was responsible for the success of Journey's songs, which is exactly what Annie asserted here:

As long as they're out there playing the DD (songs sung and made famous by their former lead singer)

That's the thing right there, Gideon, and the devil is in the details. Any person with even a moderate level of cognition would be able to more accurately describe what really happened. But Loons just can't do that. The sentence should have read " ... songs sung and made famous with their former lead singer." That would imply shared credit for the successes of the band's run in the 80's and allow one to take the author seriously. But the use of the word "by" in that context implies that he was the sole reason for their successes and that's simply not true, as you pointed out.

And right on cue -- in walks agenda boy to prove my point. Lets have a round of applause for the hair splitter.

-- ahem --

Journey would have been a footnote in the history of music without Perry and Perry (probably) wouldn't have amounted to much without Journey. Do we feel better now (Neal)?

[Gideon]

No, the rest of us get what Annie is saying, you're just being too slow to realize the facts.

For a guy who assures me that he's not a Loon and likes to keep things civil, your tactics are bewilderingly counter-intuitive. Would you making up your fucking mind so I know which Greg I'm dealing with today? I'd like to keep things polite between us but this is the third time in the past 4 weeks I've had to deal with it and it's getting old.

More times than not, the voice of the band is the lead singer. Unless your Van Halen, you recognize the songs by the singer. It is Steve Perry's voice that people associate with those classic Journey songs. That's just fact that you guys are going to have to realize.

This is simultaneously stupid and irrelevant on account of the fact that I've never denied this and, in fact, I'm pretty sure I flat-out agreed with it in our last discussion.

Nobody here is saying Perry is solely responsible for all of Journey's success,

As long as they're out there playing the DD (songs sung and made famous by their former lead singer)

Unless "their former lead singer" is the cleverest fucking anagram on the planet, I don't see Neal Schon and Jonathan Cain's names here.

but that he was an extremely important third piece of the song writing.

This is simultaneously stupid and irrelevant on account of the fact that I've never denied this and, in fact, I'm pretty sure I flat-out agreed with it in our last discussion.

And it's utterly stupid to compare Street Talk to Escape. Let's flip that dumb argument over to what Neal's solo albums have done compared with Escape. Same argument that has no useful logic.

Yeah, you're way off the mark here. The logic would be stupid and the argument would be dumb if and only if I was trying to use it to trump up Neal and downplay Perry. I'm not. Kindly point out the flaw in the logic and the inherent stupidity in the argument rather than hurling baseless attacks against that which definitively proves that the axis on which a Loon's life spins is not as great as the deluded believe he is.

[Gideon]

Journey would have been a footnote in the history of music without Perry and Perry (probably) wouldn't have amounted to much without Journey. Do we feel better now (Neal)?

Yeah, Neal Schon and Gregg Rolie were established musicians who were part of an enormously successful band in the form of Santana. Perry, on the other hand, was an utter neophyte with connections and a reputation that was insignificant in comparison. Odds are heavily in Journey's favor in finding success when compared to Perry's, who had all but abandoned the industry and was at Herbie Herbert's mercy.

[STORY_TELLER]

Journey would have been a footnote in the history of music without Perry and Perry (probably) wouldn't have amounted to much without Journey. Do we feel better now (Neal)?

Yeah, Neal Schon and Gregg Rolie were established musicians who were part of an enormously successful band in the form of Santana. Perry, on the other hand, was an utter neophyte with connections and a reputation that was insignificant in comparison. Odds are heavily in Journey's favor in finding success when compared to Perry's, who had all but abandoned the industry and was at Herbie Herbert's mercy.

True, to a very specific and small degree, however you're leaving out some key points:

If those established musicians were as hot as you're spinning them to be, why then did Herbie start them out as a backup group to established bay area artists (Golden Gate Rhythm Section)? The answer is it was Herbie's business relationships that got them a record contract, not their Santana history alone. Santana was the focal point of his band, not Gregg, not Neal. Those guys had to start from scratch even with Herbie managing them.

When they finally became JOURNEY, they got a record contract and put out several albums that didn't go anywhere (with those same established talented musicians), and as a result of having failed to that point, were on the verge of losing their record contract when they found Perry. I have no doubt that loss of that contract would have amounted to the band going their separate professional ways (pun intended). There would have been no Journey in the form the public came to care about them. Not the Rollie era, not the Cain era, nothing. Doubtful another singer would have yielded the same result as Perry. At best they might have had a hit here or there and THEN lost their record contract, along with the likes of "head east" (because at best that's what they would have been with Fleishman or the like). Even Cain considers his collaboration with Perry as the source of his greatest success. He was quoted as saying Perry knew how to pull a melody together. That's the mark of a song writer, that's the mark of an artist. Even more recently in an interview for the Eclipse promotion, I think he referred to Perry's "style and panache" as being part of the reason for his (Cain's) greatest success (paraphrasing of course). And don't be so dismissive of that. Cain certainly isn't, because he knows it's the mark of an artist and it's the make or break difference when it comes to producing stand out material.

As to your other point:
Perry's tape was floating around at the record company sans Herbert. Someone at the record company obviously liked what they heard or they wouldn't have passed it on to Herbert. It's not unreasonable to conclude that someone at the record company might have looked him up had Herbert passed on Perry and Perry would have found renewed desire to sing had he received a call from a record company (not just a manager of a band with a cult following).

We'll never know what would have been with Perry solo, but based on his R&B leanings, my guess is he might have had a hit or two, or possibly gone on to be a Hall and Oats style act. I don't think we would feel the exact same way about Perry today had this happened, because the stronger material was yielded by his collaboration with Neal and Cain. There would be no DSB as part of american pop culture, but make no mistake, even Cain thinks Perry's talent was not just his voice and considers him an essential ingredient to the success they had in their heyday which they now reap the rewards from.

It has never been easy to find success in the music industry at any point in history. You either hit and get a career out of it or you don't and you eventually go back to a day job. There's very little in-between. To say the odds were in Journey's favor sans Perry is simply not true.

[Gideon]

If those established musicians were as hot as you're spinning them to be, why then did Herbie start them out as backup group to established bay area artists (Golden Gate Rhythm Section sound familiar)? Like I said, nice spin.

I never contended that they were industry giants, simply that they were professional musicians with a credible and solid reputation. They were more established than Perry and your red herring does nothing to contradict that.

When they finally became JOURNEY, they got a record contract and put out several albums that didn't go anywhere (with those same established talented musicians), and as a result of having failed to that point, were on the verge of losing their record contract when they found Perry.

Which is one contract and several albums more than Perry had at the time, isn't it?

have no doubt that loss of that contract would have amounted to the band going their separate professional ways (pun intended). There would have been no Journey in the form the public came to care about them. Not the Rollie era, not the Cain era, nothing.

Yeah, and I have no doubt that Perry would have remained on that turkey ranch had Herbie not given him the call, with success only being found in his wildest dream (pun intended).

Doubtful another singer would have yielded the same result as Perry.

Contrary to the popular belief that Steve Perry is the gravity which commands the universe, there are plenty of talented tenor songwriters in the music industry as the '70s and '80s would show. Are they as good? Perhaps, perhaps not. But one need not be better to be more successful, as there were plenty of artists more successful ultimately than Journey or Steve Perry.

At best they might have had a hit here or there and THEN lost their record contract, along with the likes of "head east" (because at best that's what they would have been with Fleishman or the like).

Can you use your crystal ball for things other than just making entertaining predictions over hypothetical scenarios in the past? I say crystal ball because you seem pretty authoritative here and I'm not seeing much by way of proof.

Even Cain considers his collaboration with Perry as the source of his greatest success.

Yeah and Perry thanked Herbie Herbert at the 2005 Walk of Fame ceremony and elsewhere for giving him his career, so if we're just going to blindly take people's words on the matter, I guess that ends this argument entirely.

He was quoted as saying Perry knew how to pull a melody together. That's the mark of a song writer, that's the mark of an artist. Even more recently in an interview for the Eclipse promotion, I think he referred to Perry's "style and panache" as being part of the reason for his (Cain's) success (paraphrasing of course). And don't be so dismissive of that. Cain certainly isn't, because he knows it's the mark of an artist and it's the make or break difference when it comes to producing stand out material.

Like Greg, you see shit that simply isn't there. I'm not dismissive of Perry's talents, I'm simply pointing out the incontrovertible fact that he was not the sole factor in this band's success. Nor was he the only talented songwriter or vocalist to ever join the Journey umbrella.

As to your other point:
Perry's tape was floating around at the record company sans Herbert. Someone at the record company obviously liked what they heard or they wouldn't have passed it on to Herbert. It's not unreasonable to conclude that someone at the record company might have looked him up had Herbert passed on Perry and Perry would have found renewed desire to sing had he received a call from a record company (not just a band with a cult following's manager).

One wonders why this tape with the world's greatest voice and premiere vocalist wasn't snatched up immediately, left to float in the limbo of the music industry until Herbie had a change of heart? Could it be that Perry wasn't the only talent out there who was capturing the attention of others? Surely not; such a concession would shatter the fragile paradigm of Loons everywhere and I wouldn't want to be responsible for that reality check.

We'll never know what would have been with Perry solo, but based on his R&B leanings, my guess is he might have had a hit or two, or possibly gone on to be a Hall and Oats style act. I don't think we would feel the exact same way about Perry today had this happened, because the stronger material was yielded by his collaboration with Neal and Cain. There would be no DSB as part of american pop culture, but make no mistake, even Cain thinks Perry's talent was not just his voice.

So the bottom line is that Journey had a contract, several released albums, and a cult following. Perry? He had none of these. Moreover, Journey clearly had a foot in the door. Perry? Nope.

Sounds like the idea that the advantage was Perry's is complete and utter fiction.

[STORY_TELLER]

If those established musicians were as hot as you're spinning them to be, why then did Herbie start them out as backup group to established bay area artists (Golden Gate Rhythm Section sound familiar)? Like I said, nice spin.

I never contended that they were industry giants, simply that they were professional musicians with a credible and solid reputation. They were more established than Perry and your red herring does nothing to contradict that.

When they finally became JOURNEY, they got a record contract and put out several albums that didn't go anywhere (with those same established talented musicians), and as a result of having failed to that point, were on the verge of losing their record contract when they found Perry.

Which is one contract and several albums more than Perry had at the time, isn't it?

have no doubt that loss of that contract would have amounted to the band going their separate professional ways (pun intended). There would have been no Journey in the form the public came to care about them. Not the Rollie era, not the Cain era, nothing.

Yeah, and I have no doubt that Perry would have remained on that turkey ranch had Herbie not given him the call, with success only being found in his wildest dream (pun intended).

Doubtful another singer would have yielded the same result as Perry.

Contrary to the popular belief that Steve Perry is the gravity which commands the universe, there are plenty of talented tenor songwriters in the music industry as the '70s and '80s would show. Are they as good? Perhaps, perhaps not. But one need not be better to be more successful, as there were plenty of artists more successful ultimately than Journey or Steve Perry.

At best they might have had a hit here or there and THEN lost their record contract, along with the likes of "head east" (because at best that's what they would have been with Fleishman or the like).

Can you use your crystal ball for things other than just making entertaining predictions over hypothetical scenarios in the past? I say crystal ball because you seem pretty authoritative here and I'm not seeing much by way of proof.

Even Cain considers his collaboration with Perry as the source of his greatest success.

Yeah and Perry thanked Herbie Herbert at the 2005 Walk of Fame ceremony and elsewhere for giving him his career, so if we're just going to blindly take people's words on the matter, I guess that ends this argument entirely.

He was quoted as saying Perry knew how to pull a melody together. That's the mark of a song writer, that's the mark of an artist. Even more recently in an interview for the Eclipse promotion, I think he referred to Perry's "style and panache" as being part of the reason for his (Cain's) success (paraphrasing of course). And don't be so dismissive of that. Cain certainly isn't, because he knows it's the mark of an artist and it's the make or break difference when it comes to producing stand out material.

Like Greg, you see shit that simply isn't there. I'm not dismissive of Perry's talents, I'm simply pointing out the incontrovertible fact that he was not the sole factor in this band's success. Nor was he the only talented songwriter or vocalist to ever join the Journey umbrella.

As to your other point:
Perry's tape was floating around at the record company sans Herbert. Someone at the record company obviously liked what they heard or they wouldn't have passed it on to Herbert. It's not unreasonable to conclude that someone at the record company might have looked him up had Herbert passed on Perry and Perry would have found renewed desire to sing had he received a call from a record company (not just a band with a cult following's manager).

One wonders why this tape with the world's greatest voice and premiere vocalist wasn't snatched up immediately, left to float in the limbo of the music industry until Herbie had a change of heart? Could it be that Perry wasn't the only talent out there who was capturing the attention of others? Surely not; such a concession would shatter the fragile paradigm of Loons everywhere and I wouldn't want to be responsible for that reality check.

We'll never know what would have been with Perry solo, but based on his R&B leanings, my guess is he might have had a hit or two, or possibly gone on to be a Hall and Oats style act. I don't think we would feel the exact same way about Perry today had this happened, because the stronger material was yielded by his collaboration with Neal and Cain. There would be no DSB as part of american pop culture, but make no mistake, even Cain thinks Perry's talent was not just his voice.

So the bottom line is that Journey had a contract, several released albums, and a cult following. Perry? He had none of these. Moreover, Journey clearly had a foot in the door. Perry? Nope.

Sounds like the idea that the advantage was Perry's is complete and utter fiction.

To go down all of these point by point is an exercise in wasting a great(er) deal of my (valuable) time -- so -- I'm not going to bother. It's just not worth it. Make no mistake, I do have an answer to EVERYTHING you just said (and I'm sure you or SJ will say I didn't or I would have, yada, yada, yada). I'm just tired of arguing semantics with hair splitters. I don't know how you guys do it day after day, night after night. Nutz!

[Gideon]

To go down all of these point by point is an exercise in wasting a great(er) deal of my (valuable) time -- so -- I'm not going to bother. It's just not worth it. Make no mistake, I do have an answer to EVERYTHING you just said (and I'm sure you or SJ will say I didn't or I would have, yada, yada, yada). I'm just tired of arguing semantics with hair splitters. I don't know how you guys do it day after day, night after night. Nutz!

Oh, I'm sure you have an answer, but it's probably wrong.
The fact is that Journey had a record deal, they had album releases, they had a cult following. Perry didn't have any of these things nor was he the only talented singer/songwriter in the world at the time. To assert otherwise is bullshit. Could he have found success on his own? Sure. Is it more likely that he would have found success than the established members of Journey? Nope, they had advantages he didn't.

[steveo777]

I've just come to the conclusion that all Journey fans, loons, wigglers, sototarians, pin heads and every faction is just fucking crazy, all of us!

Are we done yet?

[Gideon]

Are we done yet?

We were done the moment the opposition began their ill-conceived responses.

[slucero]

To go down all of these point by point is an exercise in wasting a great(er) deal of my (valuable) time -- so -- I'm not going to bother. It's just not worth it. Make no mistake, I do have an answer to EVERYTHING you just said (and I'm sure you or SJ will say I didn't or I would have, yada, yada, yada). I'm just tired of arguing semantics with hair splitters. I don't know how you guys do it day after day, night after night. Nutz!

Oh, I'm sure you have an answer, but it's probably wrong.
The fact is that Journey had a record deal, they had album releases, they had a cult following. Perry didn't have any of these things nor was he the only talented singer/songwriter in the world at the time. To assert otherwise is bullshit. Could he have found success on his own? Sure. Is it more likely that he would have found success than the established members of Journey? Nope, they had advantages he didn't.

You must have forgot the record deal Perry (Alien Project) had... only to lose when his bass player died... anyhoo...


The only relevant Journey "facts" are:

• The label was going to drop them if they didn't get a singer and make more radio friendly music... (Herbie actually said this)
  
• Herbie forced Perry on the band... (since Fleischman was working out so well...), which Neal was actually against...

So taking those two actual facts into consideration... it would appear the advantages for the band and Perry were pretty equal...


The only advantage either had was Herbie...

[STORY_TELLER]

To go down all of these point by point is an exercise in wasting a great(er) deal of my (valuable) time -- so -- I'm not going to bother. It's just not worth it. Make no mistake, I do have an answer to EVERYTHING you just said (and I'm sure you or SJ will say I didn't or I would have, yada, yada, yada). I'm just tired of arguing semantics with hair splitters. I don't know how you guys do it day after day, night after night. Nutz!

javascript:emoticon(':lol:')
Oh, I'm sure you have an answer, but it's probably wrong.
The fact is that Journey had a record deal, they had album releases, they had a cult following. Perry didn't have any of these things nor was he the only talented singer/songwriter in the world at the time. To assert otherwise is bullshit. Could he have found success on his own? Sure. Is it more likely that he would have found success than the established members of Journey? Nope, they had advantages he didn't.

God damn you, you suckered me back in.

Okay, I'm going to answer this ONE thing briefly, and it's only because you seem to think that by ignoring my statements, it negates it, which it doesn't, it just means you circled around it.

I stated: Journey was LOSING their record deal prior to Perry joining the band. The cult following you're crowing about wasn't enough to the business folk. Not enough people cared about Journey. If you think that means they were still going places sans Perry's (especially considering they had a hit song with his involvement on their very first album with him), well, that's simply not a reasonable conclusion for anyone to draw. "To assert otherwise is bullshit?". Really? Go to Kevin Chalfant, someone Herbie Herbert champions to this day, and ask him if he thinks it's easy to get a hit song, see what he says about that. I'll bet he doesn't side with your logic.

There, happy now? I responded to ONE of your statements. I absolutely refuse to waste time on the others -- but -- curse you for drawing me back in!!

I left these boards a long time ago because I found I was wasting SO much time on them. Here you are, like a drug dealer, sticking the needle in my arm -- you son of a....

[Gideon]

You must have forgot the record deal Perry (Alien Project) had... only to lose when his bass player died... anyhoo...

Nope.
You must have forgotten that I was referring to events as they were when Perry was set to join Journey, by which time the contract with Alien Project has disintegrated. So what I said was completely true: Perry didn't have a contract.

The only relevant Journey "facts" are:

• The label was going to drop them if they didn't get a singer and make more radio friendly music... (Herbie actually said this)
  
• Herbie forced Perry on the band... (since Fleischman was working out so well...), which Neal was actually against...

So taking those two actual facts into consideration... it would appear the advantages for the band and Perry were pretty equal...


The only advantage either had was Herbie...

That's the only advantage they had in common, yes. But otherwise, Journey still had a contract with a label, establishment in the industry, and a cult following. Perry had none of these and no amount of pro-Perry whitewashing is going to change that.

[Gideon]

God damn you, you suckered me back in.

Okay, I'm going to answer this ONE thing briefly, and it's only because you seem to think that by ignoring my statements, it negates it, which it doesn't, it just means you circled around it.

I find it hilarious that you, the guy who is going to answer a multi-faceted argument in a single paragraph, is lecturing me, the guy who dissected your argument piece by piece to answer it, on "ignoring statements."

I stated: Journey was LOSING their record deal prior to Perry joining the band.

As I stated: Perry HAD LOST his record deal prior to joining Journey. So 'was on the verge of losing' vs. 'had lost.' Hmm, which one is a greater loss? Potential vs. actual?

Advantage: Journey

The cult following you're crowing about wasn't enough to the business folk. Not enough people cared about Journey.

And how many people cared about Perry? How many albums had he sold? What about his stellar contract? This is too easy.

Advantage: Journey

If you think that means they were still going places sans Perry's (especially considering they had a hit song with his involvement on their very first album with him), well, that's simply not a reasonable conclusion for anyone to draw.

But asserting Perry was going to go places regardless (as you have done) is reasonable? He had no foothold, no credibility, no record deal, no drive, nothing.

Advantage: Journey

"To assert otherwise is bullshit?". Really? Go to Kevin Chalfant, someone Herbie Herbert champions to this day, and ask him if he thinks it's easy to get a hit song, see what he says about that. I'll bet he doesn't side with your logic.

I guess you've forgotten about the decent success enjoyed by The Storm during the changing musical climate? Like I said, Perry wasn't the only talented singer/songwriter in the late '70s.

There, happy now? I responded to ONE of your statements. I absolutely refuse to waste time on the others -- but -- curse you for drawing me back in!!

I left these boards a long time ago because I found I was wasting SO much time on them. Here you are, like a drug dealer, sticking the needle in my arm -- you son of a....

Well, like I said, you're better off not responding if all you're gonna do is get it wrong!

[slucero]

You must have forgot the record deal Perry (Alien Project) had... only to lose when his bass player died... anyhoo...

Nope.
You must have forgotten that I was referring to events as they were when Perry was set to join Journey, by which time the contract with Alien Project has disintegrated. So what I said was completely true: Perry didn't have a contract.

The only relevant Journey "facts" are:

• The label was going to drop them if they didn't get a singer and make more radio friendly music... (Herbie actually said this)
  
• Herbie forced Perry on the band... (since Fleischman was working out so well...), which Neal was actually against...

So taking those two actual facts into consideration... it would appear the advantages for the band and Perry were pretty equal...


The only advantage either had was Herbie...

That's the only advantage they had in common, yes. But otherwise, Journey still had a contract with a label, establishment in the industry, and a cult following. Perry had none of these and no amount of pro-Perry whitewashing is going to change that.

You call my post, which cites fact as "Pro-Perry whitewashing" yet state this??

Could he have found success on his own? Sure. Is it more likely that he would have found success than the established members of Journey? Nope, they had advantages he didn't.

That statement is wholly speculative... and with no basis in any kind of fact whatsoever... its just your opinion...

[Gideon]

You call my post, which cites fact as "Pro-Perry whitewashing" yet state this??

No.
Your post is pro-Perry whitewashing if and only if you indulge revisionist history and attempt to deny certain advantages over Perry that Journey enjoyed. If you don't deny that they had a label when he didn't, that they had sold albums (even if not in the millions) when he didn't, and that they were established musicians with some foothold in the industry whereas he wasn't, then it's fine.

That statement is wholly speculative... and with no basis in any kind of fact whatsoever... its just your opinion...

You call my post, which cites fact that Journey had advantages which made it more likely that they'd enjoy success relative to Perry (label, album sales, establishment as musicians, etc.) as "an opinion" yet state this??

The only advantage either had was Herbie...

That statement is clearly bullshit, because it casually ignores the fact that Journey was not as disadvantaged as Perry was. To even call this an opinion would be generous and it certainly can't be speculation if it's flat out wrong.

[Gideon]

I'm heading off for the night but I'll be back on when I can to continue this. Gregg, Slucero, Storyteller, great chat guys.

[STORY_TELLER]

God damn you, you suckered me back in.

Okay, I'm going to answer this ONE thing briefly, and it's only because you seem to think that by ignoring my statements, it negates it, which it doesn't, it just means you circled around it.

I find it hilarious that you, the guy who is going to answer a multi-faceted argument in a single paragraph, is lecturing me, the guy who dissected your argument piece by piece to answer it, on "ignoring statements."

I stated: Journey was LOSING their record deal prior to Perry joining the band.

As I stated: Perry HAD LOST his record deal prior to joining Journey. So 'was on the verge of losing' vs. 'had lost.' Hmm, which one is a greater loss? Potential vs. actual?

Advantage: Journey

The cult following you're crowing about wasn't enough to the business folk. Not enough people cared about Journey.

And how many people cared about Perry? How many albums had he sold? What about his stellar contract? This is too easy.

Advantage: Journey

If you think that means they were still going places sans Perry's (especially considering they had a hit song with his involvement on their very first album with him), well, that's simply not a reasonable conclusion for anyone to draw.

But asserting Perry was going to go places regardless (as you have done) is reasonable? He had no foothold, no credibility, no record deal, no drive, nothing.

Advantage: Journey

"To assert otherwise is bullshit?". Really? Go to Kevin Chalfant, someone Herbie Herbert champions to this day, and ask him if he thinks it's easy to get a hit song, see what he says about that. I'll bet he doesn't side with your logic.

I guess you've forgotten about the decent success enjoyed by The Storm during the changing musical climate? Like I said, Perry wasn't the only talented singer/songwriter in the late '70s.

There, happy now? I responded to ONE of your statements. I absolutely refuse to waste time on the others -- but -- curse you for drawing me back in!!

I left these boards a long time ago because I found I was wasting SO much time on them. Here you are, like a drug dealer, sticking the needle in my arm -- you son of a....

Well, like I said, you're better off not responding if all you're gonna do is get it wrong!

No offense Gid, but dividing up a broad stroke point into sectional separate arguments doesn't mean you won the point of the conversation. It's just your tactic to divert attention off the elements you failed to address.

Here's the thing:
You're either just not getting "it" or you're intentionally circumventing "it" ("it" being the source point of this friendly little debate). Because every one of your statements are pointless to the source point of this discussion and that's part of the reason why I didn't bother spending an inordinate amount of time addressing them line by line. As you've demonstrated, it only takes a line or two to make an inaccurate statement or pose an opinion as some kind of fact, but unfortunately, it takes a great deal of time and effort to counter argue and explain why your simple statements are wrong. And unlike you, it's time I just don't have.

You've been including these bizarre tangent points which circumvent the topic being discussed. I mean advantages? Really? How are the advantages you point to relevant to what Journey became via Perry's substantial contributions? That Journey had a record deal and Perry didn't? Hello? Alien Project had a contract, but I'm not getting drawn into a tangent discussion. The point is:

How is that linearly relevant to a discussion about Journey's success with Perry, when it's historical fact that prior to his joining the band, Journey were doing so poorly, their own record company was about to drop them? Seriously, explain this to me because your logic simply escapes me (I swear these are unintentional puns).

Moving forward:

The point you either didn't get or intentionally circumvented about Chalfant is this:
Of course I knew about The Storm. The reason I brought him up was he was in the music biz, with management, record contracts and all, for almost 10 years BEFORE The Storm. 707 had a one hit wonder in 1982 (that very few people even know or care about today). 10 years during the heyday of AOR and he achieved zilch! Nothing to be ashamed of, it's not an easy thing to achieve, and that's my point.

I only point it out to counter your assertion that Journey would have been plenty successful had some other random albeit talented singer joined instead of Perry. My assertion this whole time is that your assertion is absolutely dismissive nonsense. Chalfant is plenty talented and there are, by your own reasoning, plenty of OTHER talented musicians he could have joined with. Oh wait, that's right, it's not that simple is it? Not so easy to just get out there, make a song, let alone and album, that resonates with the majority of music listeners and becomes a hit. It's not just a voice, then is it? It's the art of crafting a song too. How was Journey doing that before Perry? Oh yeah, they weren't. Yet the first album Journey does with Perry scores, the record company is happy and they just keep on building from there. Gee, what a coincidence. But you're right, anyone could have done that. Just ask Chalfant or Michael Bolton, who struggled for years before anything broke for him, and he had to do a cover song to get that ball rolling. Great talent there, great voice, but it took a cover song of a previous hit to get him a career. Again, Journey blew up right off the bat with Perry's songwriting involvement and vox and that's because Perry was the focal point for the crafting of all their songs during the Rollie era. NOT JUST THE VOICE.

See how much time that took to point out? Just not worth the effort to do that across all your little tangent statements, especially when considering the following:

Journey will be remembered by the majority for their musical heyday catalog with Perry. The majority of fans who listen to Journey's music don't care about the post Perry era catalog and that's why Perry and Journey are inseparable. That a handful of people on this board disagree is irrelevant. We are all hard-core fans. We know the ins and outs of every little stupid thing that went on with this band. The discussions on this board aren't indicative of the mind of the casual fan. Journey's legacy is secured in music history as described (Perry-centric). Pineda, Augeri, as talented as they are, will only be thought of as Perry soundalikes hired to replaced Perry. That the details differ is irrelevant. Perception rules the day, and as recent articles have pointed out, casual fans think Arnel sounds like Perry. Even Sammy Hagar pointed out Journey failed with Augeri because he was trying to be Perry (look it up).

Stop grinding your axes already. Stop going around board to board, policing and hounding everyone's posts who's opinion you're trying to change. You're changing nothing. You're gaining nothing. In the end, you will be nothing, lol... go outside and get a life already. 'Nuff said!

(prediction: Gideon will slice and dice this post as he always does. These slices and dices will create more tangents. Others will chime in on these tangents and none of you will see the sun for the better part of a month!).

ST out!

[Michigan Girl]

(prediction: Gideon will slice and dice this post as he always does. These slices and dices will create more tangents. Others will chime in on these tangents and none of you will see the sun for the better part of a month!).

ST out!

lol ...yes he will and, of course, that's his job around here ...he will debate
this using the Street Talk tactic, his ammunition of choice, and he will never win!!
Even the ex~bandmates, and current members, acknowledge what he refuses to ...at that
point in history Journey needed Steve Perry and Steve Perry needed Journey.

Great post, as usual, ST!!

[Saint John]

You are being entirely disingenuous here

This is an astoundingly witless accusation, considering what you say next.

This is also why in the 90's, almost 7 years after Journey broke up, Perry was able to tour on his own name and fill sizable venues. By contrast, when Neal recently toured tiny clubs like The House of Blues, long after Perry hasn't been in Journey, he (Neal) barely filled the standing room only stage area let alone the venue.

I'm not even sure where to start with this bizarre and imbecilic comparison. Let me try, though. You mean to tell me, honestly, that you think comparing Steve Perry playing the music of Journey and advertising it as such, and Neal Schon playing the music of a 60 day old band along with some cover tunes, isn't a disingenuous argument?!? Perry took a branded act's music and its almost 20 year pop history along with him, and Neal took ... none of that with him! The only true comparison would have been Neal's attempted "Journey and Beyond" with Chalfant and Rolie. Then you could have compared gate receipts. Your arguing skills are both deceptive and deficient and, while you do bring up some good points, you definitely don't make your case ... at all.

None of the music Journey has created post their heyday (i.e. the 1980's and/or the greatest hits album) has gained any emotional attachments with the majority of general music fans, let alone those "young fans" who go see them in concert today. The majority of those fans associate Journey with Perry, just as the majority of Foreigner fans associate with Graham, Chicago fans associate with Ceterra, etc., etc. THAT'S what Annie is getting and, that's what she's saying -- and -- I happen to believe she's right.

Point(s) taken. But that has almost nothing to do with Steve Perry not being in the band anymore. For what you're implying to be true, Against The Wall, For The Love Of Strange Medicine and Trial By Fire would have to be in similar radio rotation to the rest of the Greatest Hits. And they're not. And that pretty much shows that the monumental shift in the musical landscape is the reason that Journey's popularity has fallen by the wayside. It "hasn't gained any emotional attachment" because it hasn't had a chance to! But that doesn't seem to be the foundation on which either of you is arguing. She's using terms like "sung and made famous by their lead singer" and you're making wildly fallacious comparisons. You know, that kind of makes your "agenda" transparent.

Rock is dead and Journey will be remembered for their time with Perry and nothing else.

Had this been the foundation upon which your argument was built, we could have avoided 3 pages of bullshit, you asshole! I agree! At the same time, though, I think the guys are out there doing the best they can to keep putting out music and giving the remaining fans something to look forward to.

[Greg]

Gideon:

Instead of slicing and dicing, let me put it to you as simplistic as possible. Nobody here is saying Steve Perry is the sole reason why Journey was successful. He was, in large part, what made Journey stand out more noticeably with his unique voice. When you heard his voice on the radio, you knew it was Journey you were listening to. That is what Annie was getting at with her "made famous by their former singer." Look at a lot of these pop singers who have made a name for themselves performing songs in which they did not write. They made those songs famous even though they didn't necessarily write them or were the sole song writers. Same thing Annie was saying. Steve Perry did make those songs famous, because his voice was so recognizable during the 80's. I would go so far to say that his voice is probably iconic of 80's music culture. But, we're not saying he should be given sole credit for making Journey a success. It is the song writing nucleus of Perry, Cain, and Schon. Those three guys together brought out the best in each other, musically - and brought out the best in Journey. Perry did, however, bring success to the band before Cain came into the band. Even Neal Schon said that in the Behind The Music show. So, Perry had a knack of being an artist, not just a singer. He made Journey better, and then Cain made Journey complete in my opinion. To state that any other good tenor voice could have came in and done the same thing is not in agreement with what I have been saying and nor what Story_Teller said, Gideon. I noticed in one of your other slice/dice posts quoting me that you said you have agreed with this notion that it was all three who made Journey great, but then going back and saying Journey could have gotten any great tenor voice and have been as successful is a complete contradiction. You, have no reason to have an ax to grind with Perry. Neither does Saint John or anybody else for that matter. I give Perry a lot of credit for what he brought to the band, but I also give a lot of credit to Jon Cain, Neal Schon, and Gregg Rolie. And honestly, at this stage in the game, I really don't give a crap about the internal band issues anymore. I'm thankful for having what Journey has been blessed to have given us musically. Could it has been more? Sure, but it could have been a lot less as well. Stop grinding axes and throwing out the loon card every time someone says anything nice about Steve Perry.

[Gideon]

You should all have your responses either today or tomorrow, but I assure you they will come.

[portland]

You should all have your responses either today or tomorrow, but I assure you they will come.

Giddy is it time for vacation? You must be getting really exhausted.

[Gideon]

Giddy is it time for vacation? You must be getting really exhausted.

Kicking ass can be exhausting, but I try to make it as efficient as possible for my own sake and that of my victims. But don't doubt my stamina.

[portland]

Giddy is it time for vacation? You must be getting really exhausted.

Kissing Journey's ass can be exhausting, but I try to make it as efficient as possible, but don't doubt my stamina.

There fixed it for ya!

[Gideon]

Giddy is it time for vacation? You must be getting really exhausted.

Kissing Journey's ass can be exhausting, but I try to make it as efficient as possible, but don't doubt my stamina.

There fixed it for ya!

Guess you've missed all of the criticisms I've heaped in that camp's direction, particularly recently over the decisions made on the current tour? But I guess that doesn't fit into the typical Loon's "us or them" paradigm. Keep on misrepresenting me, Portland. Because at the end of the day, I've hurled more criticisms at Journey by far than you have Perry.

[portland]

Giddy is it time for vacation? You must be getting really exhausted.

Kissing Journey's ass can be exhausting, but I try to make it as efficient as possible, but don't doubt my stamina.

There fixed it for ya!

Guess you've missed all of the criticisms I've heaped in that camp's direction, particularly recently over the decisions made on the current tour? But I guess that doesn't fit into the typical Loon's "us or them" paradigm. Keep on misrepresenting me, Portland. Because at the end of the day, I've hurled more criticisms at Journey by far than you have Perry.

Giddy...it was a joke...you must be overtired...go and take a nap!

[Michigan Girl]

That's funny!!

Misrepresenting Giddy?!? He represents himself just fine ...but only to
those of us who read!!

I didn't realize there was a criticism hurling contest taking place ...do tell!!

[Greg]

That's funny!!

Misrepresenting Giddy?!? He represents himself just fine ...but only to
those of us who read!!

I didn't realize there was a criticism hurling contest taking place ...do tell!!

Gideon is a legend in his own mind.

[slucero]

You call my post, which cites fact as "Pro-Perry whitewashing" yet state this??

No.
Your post is pro-Perry whitewashing if and only if you indulge revisionist history and attempt to deny certain advantages over Perry that Journey enjoyed. If you don't deny that they had a label when he didn't, that they had sold albums (even if not in the millions) when he didn't, and that they were established musicians with some foothold in the industry whereas he wasn't, then it's fine.

Except I revised nothing... I did not deny Journey had a contract, or sold albums, had well established musicians.. I did not deny any of that... talk about bullshit Gid..

That statement is wholly speculative... and with no basis in any kind of fact whatsoever... its just your opinion...

You call my post, which cites fact that Journey had advantages which made it more likely that they'd enjoy success relative to Perry (label, album sales, establishment as musicians, etc.) as "an opinion" yet state this??

Your facts were (label, album sales, establishment as musicians, etc.).....

Your OPINION is this: "made it more likely" - this does not make something fact... you are confusing "probability" with "certainty".

The only advantage either had was Herbie...

That statement is clearly bullshit, because it casually ignores the fact that Journey was not as disadvantaged as Perry was. To even call this an opinion would be generous and it certainly can't be speculation if it's flat out wrong.

Again... I never said "Journey was as disadvantaged as Perry was"... I said:

• The label was going to drop them if they didn't get a singer and make more radio friendly music... (Herbie actually said this)
  
• Herbie forced Perry on the band... (since Fleischman was working out so well...), which Neal was actually against...

which are actual FACTS... not your (or my opinions). And it is those two facts, that Herbie stated were going to happen (see above probability vs. certainty point) that made Herbie a Perry supporter, and resulted in Herbie forcing Perry on the band... despite band objections.

Not revisionist history...

You could say Herbie saved Journey and Perry from certain oblivion.. of course that would only be "opinion".

[Gideon]

Gideon:

Instead of slicing and dicing, let me put it to you as simplistic as possible. Nobody here is saying Steve Perry is the sole reason why Journey was successful. He was, in large part, what made Journey stand out more noticeably with his unique voice. When you heard his voice on the radio, you knew it was Journey you were listening to. That is what Annie was getting at with her "made famous by their former singer."

As long as they're out there playing the DD (songs sung and made famous by their former lead singer)

You can speculate as to the meaning of Annie's words ad infinitum. But this is what she said; there is no mention of Neal or Jon and no qualifier as Dan pointed out. The straightforward interpretation of the message is that Steve Perry and Steve Perry alone made the songs famous, which is simply false for a number of reasons.

By the way, remember our first spat when you bitched at me for offering my own two cents on what Dan was saying? I believe your words were something to the effect of "We don't need other people coming in and posting what they think Dan said" yadda yadda? I guess it's funny that you believe yourself to be the exception to your own rules, since you're doing the same thing here with Annie.

But, we're not saying he should be given sole credit for making Journey a success. It is the song writing nucleus of Perry, Cain, and Schon. Those three guys together brought out the best in each other, musically - and brought out the best in Journey. Perry did, however, bring success to the band before Cain came into the band. Even Neal Schon said that in the Behind The Music show. So, Perry had a knack of being an artist, not just a singer. He made Journey better, and then Cain made Journey complete in my opinion.

And I'd agree with this.

To state that any other good tenor voice could have came in and done the same thing is not in agreement with what I have been saying and nor what Story_Teller said, Gideon. I noticed in one of your other slice/dice posts quoting me that you said you have agreed with this notion that it was all three who made Journey great, but then going back and saying Journey could have gotten any great tenor voice and have been as successful is a complete contradiction.

I didn't say that they would necessarily be as successful; if I said that, find me the quote and I'll publicly retract it. They might not have done as well; they might have done better. All I know is that Perry was hardly the only singer/songwriter at the time and the idea that he was somehow the only individual in all of creation who could have had chemistry with Neal Schon or helped bring success to Journey is nothing more than fantasy. The same applies for Jon Cain; I don't think he was the only talented songwriter and musician available to the band who could have completed their formula for success.

You, have no reason to have an ax to grind with Perry. Neither does Saint John or anybody else for that matter. I give Perry a lot of credit for what he brought to the band, but I also give a lot of credit to Jon Cain, Neal Schon, and Gregg Rolie. And honestly, at this stage in the game, I really don't give a crap about the internal band issues anymore. I'm thankful for having what Journey has been blessed to have given us musically. Could it has been more? Sure, but it could have been a lot less as well. Stop grinding axes and throwing out the loon card every time someone says anything nice about Steve Perry.

I'm interested in the truth and if one reads my posts one can routinely see me heap out praise and criticisms when they are due and no one is spared. I'm hardly bullying Steve Perry and the idea that I have a problem with people who say anything nice about him is an outright fucking lie, propagated by people whose attachment to this man is nothing short of psychologically disturbing. I've given Perry his due, but as usual, if you criticize Perry, you're an asshole. The great irony here being that the people who are so rabidly defending Perry have zero compunction about criticizing everyone else in Journey. How do you explain that?