Anyone Know?

[annie89509]

I'm with Lora....reading all this is giving me a headache....

[slucero]

Its like blind men having a cockfight...

[Kor'n]

I'm aware and that changes nothing for me. I'm not out to prove that Jon Cain was solely responsible for Journey's success, unlike certain others are trying to do for Perry.
The fact is that SP is not the sole reason for Journey's success... not only do the numbers claim it, but so does SP himself.

I win.

When you use "facts and figures" to try to explain reality to somebody, it's a bit pointless if that person isn't living in reality in the first place.. And, the only winning move it not to play.

"When you use "facts and figures" to try to explain reality to somebody, it's a bit pointless if that person isn't living in reality in the first place..."

Huge success with Steve Perry and no Success w/o Steve Perry, unless you view having to go the karaoke route as success along with a fluke and a flop.

[Kor'n]

Revelation is one sale, two counts.

As it should be. There are two CD's full of music. Why would they sell two CD's and only get credit for one?

and, so was Captured and the box set.

Now, now is the round and round making you delirious? All Steve Perry albums went platinum w/NO "note for note" rerecordings or one sale, two counts.

And to answer the question - an "Eclipse" is why.

[Kor'n]

I'm aware and that changes nothing for me. I'm not out to prove that Jon Cain was solely responsible for Journey's success, unlike certain others are trying to do for Perry.
The fact is that SP is not the sole reason for Journey's success... not only do the numbers claim it, but so does SP himself.

I win.

"The fact is that SP is the [major] reason for Journey's success...not only do the numbers claim it, but so does" the band, including Cain, when it ventured out for a bonafide copycat and the results when not copying is an "Eclipse."

Now Perry, tell'em how good they were when you were in the band, for I'm sure they just LOVE hearing that after the "Eclipse."







Name one successful album in Journey's 35+ years canon that does not bear the name of Steve Perry.

[Monker]

Revelation is one sale, two counts.

As it should be. There are two CD's full of music. Why would they sell two CD's and only get credit for one?

and, so was Captured and the box set.

Now, now is the round and round making you delirious? All Steve Perry albums went platinum w/NO "note for note" rerecordings or one sale, two counts.

And to answer the question - an "Eclipse" is why.

the point is this 'rule' was put into place specifically because albums like Captured had multiple disks and cost much more then single albums. So, they double the count. That's the fact, and that's the rule...and it applied to Captured whether you choose to admit it or not.

The fact is also that this 'rule is outdated and meaningless in today's industry. Doubling the disks does not necessarily double the price. The Revelation package cost LESS then some single CD's. So, the original reason to enact this no longer applies.

If you don't like the rules, butch and moan to the RIAA...but do not pretend it did not apply to other double albums in the Perry era...because it did. Whatever the RIAA count is for Captured is, divide it by 2 - and THAT is what truly sold.

And, there are other underhand ways to platinum...TBF did not SELL platinum....it shipped platinum and at that time, that is how they were certified. TBF could have sold 0, and it would have still been certified.

So, IMO, it is hypocritical of you to criticize Revelation as "double count" and yet not realize that Capture, the box set, even "In the Beginning" were ALL double counted and would deserve the same critique.

[Monker]

I'm aware and that changes nothing for me. I'm not out to prove that Jon Cain was solely responsible for Journey's success, unlike certain others are trying to do for Perry.
The fact is that SP is not the sole reason for Journey's success... not only do the numbers claim it, but so does SP himself.

I win.

When you use "facts and figures" to try to explain reality to somebody, it's a bit pointless if that person isn't living in reality in the first place.. And, the only winning move it not to play.

"When you use "facts and figures" to try to explain reality to somebody, it's a bit pointless if that person isn't living in reality in the first place..."

Huge success with Steve Perry and no Success w/o Steve Perry, unless you view having to go the karaoke route as success along with a fluke and a flop.

That's not my argument.

My argument was that before Jonathan Cain, Journey was a moderately successful rock band. After Jonathan joined Journey moved into a supergroup, equaling all of their previous success COMBINED. Steve Perry alone did NOT bring that level of success. That is a very simple fact. "All success comes from Steve Perry" is simply not true.

I'm not denying Perry's contribution to Journey's success....but it is FAR from the truth to say it all came from him. THAT is the reality you are in denial of.

As for where they went after Perry and where they are today. Back in 1998-2002, people like you were going on forever about unJourney not lasting, that the end was coming soon, Perry's "5yr non-competition clause" was up soon and he would make a comeback and crush Journey.

I've said from the beginning that Journey will continue on as long as Journey (really Neal and Jonathan) want it to. And, when it ends, it will have nothing to do with Perry not being there.

And, even the success post-Perry Journey does have, you simply dismiss it anyway...denying reality yet again.

So, you tell me, what is the point of arguing with somebody who lives with Elivis on Mars, fighting some war with John Carter> to save Steve Perry's honor? Exactly what is the point?

[Kor'n]

Revelation is one sale, two counts.

As it should be. There are two CD's full of music. Why would they sell two CD's and only get credit for one?

and, so was Captured and the box set.

Now, now is the round and round making you delirious? All Steve Perry albums went platinum w/NO "note for note" rerecordings or one sale, two counts.

And to answer the question - an "Eclipse" is why.

the point is this 'rule' was put into place specifically because albums like Captured had multiple disks and cost much more then single albums. So, they double the count. That's the fact, and that's the rule...and it applied to Captured whether you choose to admit it or not.


The fact is also that this 'rule is outdated and meaningless in today's industry. Doubling the disks does not necessarily double the price. The Revelation package cost LESS then some single CD's. So, the original reason to enact this no longer applies.

If you don't like the rules, butch and moan to the RIAA...but do not pretend it did not apply to other double albums in the Perry era...because it did. Whatever the RIAA count is for Captured is, divide it by 2 - and THAT is what truly sold.

And, there are other underhand ways to platinum...TBF did not SELL platinum....it shipped platinum and at that time, that is how they were certified. TBF could have sold 0, and it would have still been certified.

So, IMO, it is hypocritical of you to criticize Revelation as "double count" and yet not realize that Capture, the box set, even "In the Beginning" were ALL double counted and would deserve the same critique.

The rules are fine for you have true multi-platinum and more.......
JOURNEY CAPTURED January 30, 1981 October 17, 1994 COLUMBIA Standard 2.00x MULTI PLATINUM ALBUM GROUP

and fake platinum
JOURNEY REVELATION June 03, 2008 December 18, 2008 NOMOTA Standard PLATINUM ALBUM GROUP


All Steve Perry's album are platinum, original material with NO "note for note" re-recordings to secure platinum then having an "Eclipse."

[slucero]

[Kor'n]

I'm aware and that changes nothing for me. I'm not out to prove that Jon Cain was solely responsible for Journey's success, unlike certain others are trying to do for Perry.
The fact is that SP is not the sole reason for Journey's success... not only do the numbers claim it, but so does SP himself.

I win.

When you use "facts and figures" to try to explain reality to somebody, it's a bit pointless if that person isn't living in reality in the first place.. And, the only winning move it not to play.

"When you use "facts and figures" to try to explain reality to somebody, it's a bit pointless if that person isn't living in reality in the first place..."

Huge success with Steve Perry and no Success w/o Steve Perry, unless you view having to go the karaoke route as success along with a fluke and a flop.

That's not my argument.

My argument was that before Jonathan Cain, Journey was a moderately successful rock band. After Jonathan joined Journey moved into a supergroup, equaling all of their previous success COMBINED. Steve Perry alone did NOT bring that level of success. That is a very simple fact. "All success comes from Steve Perry" is simply not true.

Facts (don't argue) were "that before" Steve Perry, Journey was about to be cut by Sony and Perry saved them. Took them to platinum and made them secure with Sony. Then Cain comes in and write WITH PERRY, then they get bigger, same % jump. Then Perry left and even having scored multi-platinum plus WITH PERRY could not prevent Sony from CUTTING them, something Perry was able to do. Cain "alone did NOT bring that level of success." "That is a very simple fact." The MAJOR "success comes from Steve Perry is [simply] true."

"Journey believin with the Filipino Steve Perry sound-alike Arnel Pineda" RS 7/2008

I'm not denying Perry's contribution to Journey's success....but it is FAR from the truth to say it all came from him. THAT is the reality you are in denial of.

^

As for where they went after Perry and where they are today. Back in 1998-2002, people like you were going on forever about unJourney not lasting, that the end was coming soon, Perry's "5yr non-competition clause" was up soon and he would make a comeback and crush Journey.

Maybe this is what they had in mind "In 2011 Journey sold 703k physical albums" probably less than 100k pre or post Perry.

I've said from the beginning that Journey will continue on as long as Journey (really Neal and Jonathan) want it to. And, when it ends, it will have nothing to do with Perry not being there.

Of course, Cain the "prolific" writer's prolificity ended when Steve Perry left the group. Their end will probably will have [something] to do with the Perry "copycat"/copycat not sounding Perry. The 2011 reviews quite different from first year, and of course journeymusic.com had to close it doors to posting.

And, even the success post-Perry Journey does have, you simply dismiss it anyway...denying reality yet again.

Success is in the "eyes of the beholder." Pineda has spent his life copying the sound/style of other artists so if you view that as "success" give'em a "round of applause." He is so perfect for the group - "kid wonder they got from the internet." (10/2011) May the tribute/cover band continue on selling the music that Steve Perry helped create.

Eclipse is probably the band's biggest failure, which is weird coming off sales of that fluke Revelation. Guess that really speaks to the status of the band.

"They are screwed and they did it to themselves." Monker/Styx Forum 3/2012

So, you tell me, what is the point of arguing with somebody who lives with Elivis on Mars, fighting some war with John Carter> to save Steve Perry's honor? Exactly what is the point?

At least "somebody" came down long enough to speak sensibly..... "They are screwed and they did it to themselves." Monker

[Kor'n]

"Einstein's Theory Of Political Insanity"

[slucero]

hahaha

[Monker]

Facts (don't argue) were "that before" Steve Perry, Journey was about to be cut by Sony and Perry saved them.

Not the complete truth. Herbie brought in Robert Fleischman and started writing Infinity with him. Much of Infinity was written before Perry even joined the band. In fact, he auditioned singing one of Fleischman's songs. The band was comfortable with Fleischman, but Herbie wasn't....and he had to force Perry onto the band for them to even give him a chance.

So, it was not just Perry....It was Herbie's vision for Journey, and Herbie recognizing and giving Perry a chance despite what the band thought, and Herbie putting them on tour as a headliner before they were really deserving, and the rest of the band being able to change direction and move into a more vocal sound.

Perry was a part of the equation but the equation is not simply: Success = Perry.

Took them to platinum and made them secure with Sony. Then Cain comes in and write WITH PERRY, then they get bigger, same % jump.

It was the exact same situation and you are a hypocrite for not admitting it.

After three albums, a soundtrack, and a live album, Journey was stagnant with Perry...just as they were with the three albums before he joined. Perry alone WAS NOT ABLE to bring the superstar success of Escape.

Cain "alone did NOT bring that level of success."

I never said he did. It took all them to do that in the 80's....the point, and simple fact is, Perry could not bring that level of success.

"They are screwed and they did it to themselves." Monker/Styx Forum 3/2012

Yep, that is exactly what I said...

Journey had great success living off of nostalgia and recording a retro sounding album, and making a good buy package with Revelation...something I argued against from the start. Sounding retro is not what the band has wanted from the time Perry exited. So, they went back to being progressive with their sound on Eclipse...but the Walmart fans that bought Revelation do not want that...so the album tanked. So, they abandoned their following prior to Revelation who wanted a harder rock sound, then they abandoned their fans who wanted a nostalgic sound. Now they have nothing, so they are screwed and they did it to themselves.

But, it has nothing to do with Steve Perry being in or out of the band.

[slucero]

Without Herbie... there would be no Journey...

[Kor'n]

Facts (don't argue) were "that before" Steve Perry, Journey was about to be cut by Sony and Perry saved them.

Not the complete truth. Herbie brought in Robert Fleischman and started writing Infinity with him. Much of Infinity was written before Perry even joined the band. In fact, he auditioned singing one of Fleischman's songs. The band was comfortable with Fleischman, but Herbie wasn't....and he had to force Perry onto the band for them to even give him a chance.

Herbie was with them from the beginning and was going to be kicked out right along with them. From 75-78 they, w/Herbie, accomplished squat. Robert F. wrote on 'Wheel' and 'Winds of March.' Perry helped finish up "Winds" for his name is on that one. Perry brought in 'Lights' that is being played today just like 'Wheels.' Perry and Schon wrote Patiently, mostly Perry - "Perry finished up it"/Neal. Perry's name is on eight of ten songs from Infinity album. So if "much of Infinity was written before Perry even joined the band" guess it was not written very well. He "forced Perry onto the band" and they never looked back.

Also Perry re-worked a pre-Perry "Velvet Curtain" and turned it into a hit "Feeling That Way."

So, it was not just Perry....It was Herbie's vision for Journey, and Herbie recognizing and giving Perry a chance despite what the band thought, and Herbie putting them on tour as a headliner before they were really deserving, and the rest of the band being able to change direction and move into a more vocal sound.

Herbie was with group from the start and they went nowhere until he got glasses - Perry. Herbie "recognizing" that he would be on his way out too hired Perry, not out of love and/or admiration but need, for Perry had that "Voice" that was needed to sell records. The band had to "move into a more vocal sound" and get away from Schon's "excessive noodling" that was taking them on an "Eclipse" just like today.

Perry was a part of the equation but the equation is not simply: Success = Perry.

Perry was the "major part of the equation" and "Success =['d] Perry."

"We want to go back to the way we sounded in the Steve Perry era." Neal 12/2007

"I don't want to be him, but want to sound as much like him as I can." AP 12/2007

"Journey believen with Filipino Steve Perry sound-alike Arnel Pineda." RS 7/2008

"He's [Neal] done lots of solo project but alway return to Journey even to the point of hiring a series of Steve Perry sound-alikes to keep the franchise alive and profitable." 2010/Neal's solo show.

and "it goes on and on..."

Guess I'm "cynical" - "You could be cynical and call it killer karaoke." 2011/Toronto Review

Don't make the news, just report it...

Took them to platinum and made them secure with Sony. Then Cain comes in and write WITH PERRY, then they get bigger, same % jump.

It was the exact same situation and you are a hypocrite for not admitting it.

Already secure with Sony when Cain came on board, but when Perry left, band cut shortly thereafter b/c of a flop.
Listened to that Sweden video of Cain and Neal speaking of "DSB" and I hear him throwing some ideas at Perry. "I[Cain] kept saying to Perry is my chorus now and he say no and I say now the chorus and he says no. Finally at the end Perry says the chorus now Jon. Then next day went to Steve's house to write lyrics, and I said to Steve sounds like train, what about......"

Perry liked and helped Jon with his "ideas" unlike Waite who didn't seem to care of his "ideas."

After three albums, a soundtrack, and a live album, Journey was stagnant with Perry...just as they were with the three albums before he joined. Perry alone WAS NOT ABLE to bring the superstar success of Escape.

Is that a joke? The first three sold 300k or less and the three with Perry sold 3m +, about 2,700,000 more that first three. He was the major reason for the "superstar success of Escape" as Jon often speaks of his writing with Perry. (see above)

Cain "alone did NOT bring that level of success."

I never said he did. It took all them to do that in the 80's....the point, and simple fact is, Perry could not bring that level of success.

Of course "it took all them to do that in the 80's" but Perry was the major piece. May I quote "unless it is Slash, Richards, Clapton the guitar player doesn't matter." 2011/Eclipse Tour/Ticketm.

"They are screwed and they did it to themselves." Monker/Styx Forum 3/2012

Yep, that is exactly what I said...

Journey had great success living off of nostalgia and recording a retro sounding album, and making a good buy package with Revelation...something I argued against from the start. Sounding retro is not what the band has wanted from the time Perry exited. So, they went back to being progressive with their sound on Eclipse...but the Walmart fans that bought Revelation do not want that...so the album tanked. So, they abandoned their following prior to Revelation who wanted a harder rock sound, then they abandoned their fans who wanted a nostalgic sound. Now they have nothing, so they are screwed and they did it to themselves.

But, it has nothing to do with Steve Perry being in or out of the band.

"If a band sticks around long enough it turns into a tribute band. For years Journey has logged around the oldies circuit with a rotating cast of singers trying to impersonate Steve Perry....." RS 7/2008

"If you close your eyes you'd think Steve Perry was up there singing." Of course hearing needs to be checked.

"Eclipse is their second album with the Steve Perry sound-alike Arnel Pineda." Canada/5/2011

And, in case you forgot Monker, Perry wrote on and his voice made famous songs on that "retro sounding album."

With the band selling 700k of "killer karaoke" Revelation and having an "Eclipse" of less than 70k, can you really say "it has nothing to do with Steve Perry being in or out of the band"? If Perry were in the band, they would not be stuck just singing the 'GH' for the fans would allow songs from the entire catalog. Don't know why the band won't play "Eclipse' for bottle caps are removed.

Bruce Springsteen has done a 22 set show with nine songs from the new album "Wrecking Ball" but RS did give it 5* as opposed to 'Eclipse's 2*

[Kor'n]

hahaha

Don't think "Einstein" was entirely perceived as the "sharpest knife in the drawer."

[slucero]

The only thing I'd argue about Herbie is that without his marketing genius, and the well known fact that he had to force perry on the band, Journey would likely have been a great one or two album band... and done.

Herbie really knew how to market them.. inventing many methods (point of sale, radio ads, tv ads) later adopted by the record industry as standard practice.

At their level... its a team sport... no band makes it solely on the merits of their music..

[steveo777]

The only thing I'd argue about Herbie is that without his marketing genius, and the well known fact that he had to force perry on the band, Journey would likely have been a great one or two album band... and done.

Herbie really knew how to market them.. inventing many methods (point of sale, radio ads, tv ads) later adopted by the record industry as standard practice.

At their level... its a team sport... no band makes it solely on the merits of their music..

Herbie was the gear that moved Journey forward, period. Anyone who denies this has a head full of sand. Whether he cared about them much or his own wallet is inconsequential. It was a win/win. Later on it became a whine / whine.

[Michigan Girl]

Kor'n is great ...love his ability to grab actual quotes from band members/reporters/people
who know.
Of course you're just a loon to some of these folks, Kor'n, but one w/facts/figures/timeline charts ....I like!!
Your quoting could use some assistance, though...a skosh hard to
follow.



Steveo ...is that you?!? or did you post a pic of an unsuspecting car thief?

[steveo777]

Kor'n is great ...love his ability to grab actual quotes from band members/reporters/people
who know.
Of course you're just a loon to some of these folks, Kor'n, but one w/facts/figures/timeline charts ....I like!!
Your quoting could use some assistance, though...a skosh hard to
follow.



Steveo ...is that you?!? or did you post a pic of an unsuspecting car thief?

'tis I.

[Michigan Girl]

Kor'n is great ...love his ability to grab actual quotes from band members/reporters/people
who know.
Of course you're just a loon to some of these folks, Kor'n, but one w/facts/figures/timeline charts ....I like!!
Your quoting could use some assistance, though...a skosh hard to
follow.



Steveo ...is that you?!? or did you post a pic of an unsuspecting car thief?

'tis I.

I was going to say good to put a face w/the name ~because it
is just my nature to be sweet, wonderful and welcoming ...as you know.
But then I started thinking this could be one of your who really knows when one is really
being real tricks ...is it?!?

[steveo777]

Kor'n is great ...love his ability to grab actual quotes from band members/reporters/people
who know.
Of course you're just a loon to some of these folks, Kor'n, but one w/facts/figures/timeline charts ....I like!!
Your quoting could use some assistance, though...a skosh hard to
follow.



Steveo ...is that you?!? or did you post a pic of an unsuspecting car thief?

'tis I.

I was going to say good to put a face w/the name ~because it
is just my nature to be sweet, wonderful and welcoming ...as you know.
But then I started thinking this could be one of your who really knows when one is really
being real tricks ...is it?!?

If I was gonna make something up I would have either posted my high school pic or a younger dude, instead of a pic taken a couple days ago.

[Monker]

Herbie was with them from the beginning and was going to be kicked out right along with them. From 75-78 they, w/Herbie, accomplished squat. Robert F. wrote on 'Wheel' and 'Winds of March.' Perry helped finish up "Winds" for his name is on that one. Perry brought in 'Lights' that is being played today just like 'Wheels.' Perry and Schon wrote Patiently, mostly Perry - "Perry finished up it"/Neal. Perry's name is on eight of ten songs from Infinity album. So if "much of Infinity was written before Perry even joined the band" guess it was not written very well. He "forced Perry onto the band" and they never looked back.

You love writing fiction, don't you?

If you listen to Evolution, you can hear Perry's influence on the band. He may have had a major hand in some of the songs on Infinity, but no where near what you want to give him credit for. There is no R&B influence on that album, as there is on Evolution. He walked into a situation where an album was being written and he helped finish it up...but saying he was the major reason for its success is so untrue that I would call it outright lie.

Herbie is the reason Journey exists. He literally made Journey. He picked the players to surround Neal, and Gregg. He made the decision to fire Fleischman, and not only hire Perry but force the band to accept him. Without Herbie, Perry had given up on music and was working the turkey farm with his teeth falling out (Robyn Flans, since you like to quote so much). Herbie made Infinity the success that it was...there is not doubt about that, IMO.

Herbie was with group from the start and they went nowhere until he got glasses - Perry. Herbie "recognizing" that he would be on his way out too hired Perry, not out of love and/or admiration but need, for Perry had that "Voice" that was needed to sell records. The band had to "move into a more vocal sound" and get away from Schon's "excessive noodling" that was taking them on an "Eclipse" just like today.

Oh, please...that is just so overkill. Fleischman was the bands, and Herbie's first choice. If Fleischman had a different attitude and could get along with Herbie, there would have been no need to go to Perry at all...the only person who didn't like him there was Herbie. So, for you to say there was some desperate need of "hire Perry or lose your record deal" is just not true. The band had already moved into a 'more vocal sound'. The issue was Herbie looking for an excuse to fire Fleischman...and not because of his voice, because of how he was acting towards herbie.

Eclipse does not have 'excessive noodling' like the older albums....again, simply not true. Do you even know what Progressive rock is? Eclipse is no more Progressive rock the Infinity is...maybe even less so.

Why do you insist on throwing a bunch of bullshit quotes arguing things that have nothing to do with 1975-1981?

"We want to go back to the way we sounded in the Steve Perry era." Neal 12/2007

"Hiring a tribute band singer is a huge mistake" - me

"I don't want to be him, but want to sound as much like him as I can." AP 12/2007

"It does nothing but give Perry fans more evidence that it really was all about Steve Perry." - me.

"Journey believen with Filipino Steve Perry sound-alike Arnel Pineda." RS 7/2008

"Journey turned their backs on Perry fans when they hired Augeri, they turned their backs on Augeri fans when they hired Soto, and now they are turning their back on all of the above by hiring Arnel" - me.

"He's [Neal] done lots of solo project but alway return to Journey even to the point of hiring a series of Steve Perry sound-alikes to keep the franchise alive and profitable." 2010/Neal's solo show.

"Neal cared more about Soul Sirkus then he did about Journey. It took them less then a year to record and release the SS cd....there is no excuse for Journey not recording a new CD" - me.

and "it goes on and on..."

Yes, and your quotes are pretty pointless.

It was the exact same situation and you are a hypocrite for not admitting it.

Already secure with Sony when Cain came on board, but when Perry left, band cut shortly thereafter b/c of a flop.

Like I said, you're a hypocrite.

Listened to that Sweden video of Cain and Neal speaking of "DSB" and I hear him throwing some ideas at Perry. "I[Cain] kept saying to Perry is my chorus now and he say no and I say now the chorus and he says no. Finally at the end Perry says the chorus now Jon. Then next day went to Steve's house to write lyrics, and I said to Steve sounds like train, what about......"

Oh, please, another exaggeration. They were all throwing ideas at each other and writing the song. It's the same with other songs, the intro describing "Who's Cryin' Now" during the Escape tour is another example. The entire "Candid Conversations" album where they talk about the writing process of Frontiers is full of examples. "Send Her My Love" and "Rubicon" are examples I can think of without even listening to it again. Journey does its best work when they write TOGETHER....not when one person takes over and becomes 'the' major influence....then you end up with pop crap like ROR, or Journey meets Van Halan like Eclipse.

'[qutoe]Perry liked and helped Jon with his "ideas" unlike Waite who didn't seem to care of his "ideas."[/quote]

That's not true either...all you have to do is listen to the final Babys album and you can hear Jonathan all over it...Waite may have rejected SOME of Can's ideas (Open Arms) but NOT all of them.

After three albums, a soundtrack, and a live album, Journey was stagnant with Perry...just as they were with the three albums before he joined. Perry alone WAS NOT ABLE to bring the superstar success of Escape.

Is that a joke? The first three sold 300k or less and the three with Perry sold 3m +, about 2,700,000 more that first three.

They were stagnant after Departure. There was no steady progress from Infinity thru Departure. There was a jump in sales and then it leveled off. Again, three albums, a soundtrack, and a live album....and NO SUPERSTAR SUCCESS WITH STEVE PERRY. That is a FACT you are ignoring.

He was the major reason for the "superstar success of Escape" as Jon often speaks of his writing with Perry. (see above)

What I just said above proves otherwise. it took all of them...and adding Jonathan pushed them into Superstars. Giving one more credit then the others diminishes what the others brought to the table. i refuse to do that.

Of course "it took all them to do that in the 80's" but Perry was the major piece. May I quote "unless it is Slash, Richards, Clapton the guitar player doesn't matter." 2011/Eclipse Tour/Ticketm.

"There are two voices in that band, there really are. They either dance with each other, moving in and out...and work together. Or, they don't." Steve Perry on a MTV Street Talk interview talking about Neal's guitar being a 'second voice" in Journey.

And, in case you forgot Monker, Perry wrote on and his voice made famous songs on that "retro sounding album."

I don't forget that. What you seem to forget is Jonathan was a writer on EVERY SONG from the time he joined Journey up thru TBF.

And, it's really a pointless argument anyway since I think Revelation sucks....BECAUSE of the fact that it is an 80's nostalgia sounding album. I'd rather listen to WET...at least it sounds modern.

With the band selling 700k of "killer karaoke" Revelation and having an "Eclipse" of less than 70k, can you really say "it has nothing to do with Steve Perry being in or out of the band"?

Of course....if they had put Eclipse coupled with the rerecords and marketed it the same way, Neal could have had his modern sound, and a hit, and Journey would have had a future. Instead they screwed themselves by recording a direction they really didn't want to go in. It has everything to do with Schon's selfish, greed inspired, stupidity and has nothing to do with Steve Perry.

If Perry were in the band, they would not be stuck just singing the 'GH' for the fans would allow songs from the entire catalog. Don't know why the band won't play "Eclipse' for bottle caps are removed.

If Perry were in the band, they would never record or tour again.

[Michigan Girl]

Kor'n is great ...love his ability to grab actual quotes from band members/reporters/people
who know.
Of course you're just a loon to some of these folks, Kor'n, but one w/facts/figures/timeline charts ....I like!!
Your quoting could use some assistance, though...a skosh hard to
follow.



Steveo ...is that you?!? or did you post a pic of an unsuspecting car thief?

'tis I.

I was going to say good to put a face w/the name ~because it
is just my nature to be sweet, wonderful and welcoming ...as you know.
But then I started thinking this could be one of your who really knows when one is really
being real tricks ...is it?!?

If I was gonna make something up I would have either posted my high school pic or a younger dude, instead of a pic taken a couple days ago.

True, but this could be a pic of a younger dude ha ha!

[Kor'n]

Herbie was with them from the beginning and was going to be kicked out right along with them. From 75-78 they, w/Herbie, accomplished squat. Robert F. wrote on 'Wheel' and 'Winds of March.' Perry helped finish up "Winds" for his name is on that one. Perry brought in 'Lights' that is being played today just like 'Wheels.' Perry and Schon wrote Patiently, mostly Perry - "Perry finished up it"/Neal. Perry's name is on eight of ten songs from Infinity album. So if "much of Infinity was written before Perry even joined the band" guess it was not written very well. He "forced Perry onto the band" and they never looked back.

You love writing fiction, don't you?

If you listen to Evolution, you can hear Perry's influence on the band. He may have had a major hand in some of the songs on Infinity, but no where near what you want to give him credit for. There is no R&B influence on that album, as there is on Evolution. He walked into a situation where an album was being written and he helped finish it up...but saying he was the major reason for its success is so untrue that I would call it outright lie.

Surely you are not giving Neal the credit. Must I go find Neal's quote 2008? ALL those songs sound Perry (Lights, Somewhere to Hide, Patiently even Winds of March, etc.) and he's capable of writing any type song. The band had three flops pre-Perry. Now, you want to claim they all of sudden turned into platinum writers w/just a little help from Perry. I'm not buying your "swamp land." May I repeat Perry's name is on 8 of 10 songs, and that is a fact. He was the major force behind that album.

"Steve Perry a fine singer with a knack for writing songs with strong hooks." RS 1980

Herbie is the reason Journey exists. He literally made Journey. He picked the players to surround Neal, and Gregg. He made the decision to fire Fleischman, and not only hire Perry but force the band to accept him. Without Herbie, Perry had given up on music and was working the turkey farm with his teeth falling out (Robyn Flans, since you like to quote so much). Herbie made Infinity the success that it was...there is not doubt about that, IMO.

I guess he just did not do enough for it seems his "like a son" Neal had no problem kicking to the curb the man that "literally made Journey." May I repeat, Herbie did not hire Perry out of love and compassion, but out of necessity, for he was on his way out along with the band if it did not sell more records. "Herbie made Infinity the success that it was" but he unable to make the three pre-Perry flops successes???? Please do not ever go to court to argue a case for you could end up with life w/o parole w/o having committed any crime.

Herbie was with group from the start and they went nowhere until he got glasses - Perry. Herbie "recognizing" that he would be on his way out too hired Perry, not out of love and/or admiration but need, for Perry had that "Voice" that was needed to sell records. The band had to "move into a more vocal sound" and get away from Schon's "excessive noodling" that was taking them on an "Eclipse" just like today.

Oh, please...that is just so overkill. Fleischman was the bands, and Herbie's first choice. If Fleischman had a different attitude and could get along with Herbie, there would have been no need to go to Perry at all...the only person who didn't like him there was Herbie. So, for you to say there was some desperate need of "hire Perry or lose your record deal" is just not true. The band had already moved into a 'more vocal sound'. The issue was Herbie looking for an excuse to fire Fleischman...and not because of his voice, because of how he was acting towards herbie.

“If” they were sure that Fleischman was the guy to take them to platinum, they surely would have kept him in spite of his “slowness of writing.” Columbia recommended Perry b/c he and his band were about to be signed. Moving “into a more vocal sound” and having a vocalist with a voice that could sell records are two different beast. The “issue was Herbie looking for “ that voice that could sell records, and Perry’s voice was more favorable to that along w/his being recommended by Columbia. I’ve heard Robert F and don’t think this would have been said about him 20-30 yrs later:

“When it comes to modern day arena rock, the smooth, sultry voice of Steve Perry wrote the book”…. Journey would continue on with many different replacement singers, but none would ever come close to creating the true magic that Perry’s chops brought to the band. Whether through his dynamic range, songwriting contributions or charming stage presence, he was simply irreplaceable.” UCR 4/5/12

Eclipse does not have 'excessive noodling' like the older albums....again, simply not true. Do you even know what Progressive rock is? Eclipse is no more Progressive rock the Infinity is...maybe even less so.

“For fans who don’t care who is singing for Journey, they will love Eclipse, Neal Schon’s guitar fest.” NYTimes 5/2011 One and the same that “goes on and on.”

Why do you insist on throwing a bunch of bullshit quotes arguing things that have nothing to do with 1975-1981?

All relevant to the point of their being incapable of creating successful crap w/o Perry.

We want to go back to the way we sounded in the Steve Perry era." Neal 12/2007

"Hiring a tribute band singer is a huge mistake" - me

I don't want to be him, but want to sound as much like him as I can." AP 12/2007

"It does nothing but give Perry fans more evidence that it really was all about Steve Perry." - me.

Journey believen with Filipino Steve Perry sound-alike Arnel Pineda." RS 7/2008

"Journey turned their backs on Perry fans when they hired Augeri, they turned their backs on Augeri fans when they hired Soto, and now they are turning their back on all of the above by hiring Arnel" - me.

“Augeri sounds so much like Perry you would think Scottish scientists were involved in the auditioning process.” RS 1998

“Journey believing with the Filipino Steve Perry sound-alike, Arnel Pineda.” RS 7/2008

"He's [Neal] done lots of solo project but alway return to Journey even to the point of hiring a series of Steve Perry sound-alikes to keep the franchise alive and profitable." 2010/Neal's solo show.

"Neal cared more about Soul Sirkus then he did about Journey. It took them less then a year to record and release the SS cd....there is no excuse for Journey not recording a new CD" - me.

Maybe you should not get into naming Neal’s excursion outside of Journey, for only a handful know of or care and that’s why “he always return to Journey with a series of Steve Perry sound-alikes….”

and "it goes on and on..."

Yes, and your quotes are pretty pointless.

“Don’t make the news, just report it.” Korn

It was the exact same situation and you are a hypocrite for not admitting it.

Already secure with Sony when Cain came on board, but when Perry left, band cut shortly thereafter b/c of a flop.

Like I said, you're a hypocrite.

Steve Perry defined Journey, for they had to go out of the country to a tradition that spend lives copying other artist, just to find a bonafide copycat. Desperate is as desperate does.

As Pineda’s fans would say “Pinoys so great at copying other artist they even copy their mistakes.” 2009/Journey Forum

Listened to that Sweden video of Cain and Neal speaking of "DSB" and I hear him throwing some ideas at Perry. "I[Cain] kept saying to Perry is my chorus now and he say no and I say now the chorus and he says no. Finally at the end Perry says the chorus now Jon. Then next day went to Steve's house to write lyrics, and I said to Steve sounds like train, what about......"

Oh, please, another exaggeration. They were all throwing ideas at each other and writing the song. It's the same with other songs, the intro describing "Who's Cryin' Now" during the Escape tour is another example. The entire "Candid Conversations" album where they talk about the writing process of Frontiers is full of examples. "Send Her My Love" and "Rubicon" are examples I can think of without even listening to it again. Journey does its best work when they write TOGETHER....not when one person takes over and becomes 'the' major influence....then you end up with pop crap like ROR, or Journey meets Van Halan like Eclipse.

“ Finally at the end Perry says the chorus now Jon.“ Perry is not there to give Jon the go ahead. I guess Jon misses that “panache and intuition.” Too bad Paul Rodgers turned down their invitation to join the band.

Perry liked and helped Jon with his "ideas" unlike Waite who didn't seem to care of his "ideas."

That's not true either...all you have to do is listen to the final Babys album and you can hear Jonathan all over it...Waite may have rejected SOME of Can's ideas (Open Arms) but NOT all of them.

“ was uncomfortable with the corporate rock image that he felt the band had presented and has been a solo artist ever since.” Bad English/Waite/1991

After three albums, a soundtrack, and a live album, Journey was stagnant with Perry...just as they were with the three albums before he joined. Perry alone WAS NOT ABLE to bring the superstar success of Escape.

Is that a joke? The first three sold 300k or less and the three with Perry sold 3m +, about 2,700,000 more that first three.

They were stagnant after Departure. There was no steady progress from Infinity thru Departure. There was a jump in sales and then it leveled off. Again, three albums, a soundtrack, and a live album....and NO SUPERSTAR SUCCESS WITH STEVE PERRY. That is a FACT you are ignoring.

“There was' steady progress from Infinity thru Departure” with platinum albums.” Did NOT have to worry about being cut by Columbia.

“The song that turned nobody into somebody ‘Lovin Touchin Squeezin.” 2010

ALL “SUPERSTAR SUCCESS WITH STEVE PERRY” AND “NO SUPERSTAR SUCCESS [WITHOUT] PERRY.” “That is a FACT you are ignoring.”

Journey's long and fruitful for rock legends
September 14, 2011
“After some personnel changes, in 1977 the band brought in lead singer Steve Perry and began a 10-year run of arena rock dominance that included hits like "Lights," "Don't Stop Believin''," and prom staple "Open Arms."

He was the major reason for the "superstar success of Escape" as Jon often speaks of his writing with Perry. (see above)

What I just said above proves otherwise. it took all of them...and adding Jonathan pushed them into Superstars. Giving one more credit then the others diminishes what the others brought to the table. i refuse to do that.

Perry is the major reason for their success. And if you don’t believe that “Name one successful album that does not bear the name of Steve Perry, and I’ll name four that does not bear the name of Jonathan Cain.

It appears “Jonathan pushed them into Superstars” only works when Perry is around. That “panache and intuition” are missing. I’m sure Augeri and Arnel would like some of that “pushed” from Cain. Then, they would not have had/have to spend the rest of their days “screwed.”

“They’re screwed and they did it to themselves.” Monker 3/2012.

Of course "it took all them to do that in the 80's" but Perry was the major piece. May I quote "unless it is Slash, Richards, Clapton the guitar player doesn't matter." 2011/Eclipse Tour/Ticketm.

"There are two voices in that band, there really are. They either dance with each other, moving in and out...and work together. Or, they don't." Steve Perry on a MTV Street Talk interview talking about Neal's guitar being a 'second voice" in Journey.”

Still looking for Schon on the Top 100 guitarist lists…… Maybe the fans would appreciate him more if he would not “drown out” the “sound-alike.”

And, in case you forgot Monker, Perry wrote on and his voice made famous songs on that "retro sounding album."

I don't forget that. What you seem to forget is Jonathan was a writer on EVERY SONG from the time he joined Journey up thru TBF.

“What you seem to forget is Jonathan [NOT PERRY] was a writer on EVERY SONG from” Arrival to Eclipse, all FLOPS with a karaoke fluke.

And, it's really a pointless argument anyway since I think Revelation sucks....BECAUSE of the fact that it is an 80's nostalgia sounding album. I'd rather listen to WET...at least it sounds modern.

Steve Perry defined Journey and that’s the sound people want to hear…. You handful of people who like “Eclipse” do not matter.

“I don’t want to be him but want to sound as much like him as I can.” Pineda 12/2007

With the band selling 700k of "killer karaoke" Revelation and having an "Eclipse" of less than 70k, can you really say "it has nothing to do with Steve Perry being in or out of the band"?

Of course....if they had put Eclipse coupled with the rerecords and marketed it the same way, Neal could have had his modern sound, and a hit, and Journey would have had a future. Instead they screwed themselves by recording a direction they really didn't want to go in. It has everything to do with Schon's selfish, greed inspired, stupidity and has nothing to do with Steve Perry.

"Nothing to do with Steve Perry" by choice, but by necessity.....“We want to go back to the way we sounded in the Steve Perry era.” Neal 12/2007

And Journey’s “future” seemingly would have end on second album just like with Eclipse. The colossal flop of Eclipse, and the band having to bury all the songs, just proves that the fans just want the nostalgic sound. They NEVER would have been playing songs from Eclipse had it been w/karaoke rerecords, just like none from Revelation are being played now.

If Perry were in the band, they would not be stuck just singing the 'GH' for the fans would allow songs from the entire catalog. Don't know why the band won't play "Eclipse' for bottle caps are removed.

If Perry were in the band, they would never record or tour again.

“New Orleans Arena by Keith Spera - The Times-Picayune
September 13, 2011
“If Steve Perry, the voice behind the band's best known songs, were to come out of retirement - Journey could headline stadiums. “


“Don’t make the news, just report it.” Korn

[Monker]

The band had three flops pre-Perry. Now, you want to claim they all of sudden turned into platinum writers w/just a little help from Perry.

You sit there and make quote after quote and then lie about what I said in the very quotes you made.

I said Perry walked into a situation where an album was only partly written and helped finish it up. But, that album was absolutely not all Perry. You are a fool to believe it is.

May I repeat Perry's name is on 8 of 10 songs, and that is a fact. He was the major force behind that album.

That means hardly anything at all. You can't say EXACTLY what Perry contributed. Randy Goodrum said he wrote "Foolish Heart" and Perry hardly contributed at all...but that's not what most people believe. There is another story about a guy working with Perry where Perry would come up with general ideas for songs but left it up to him to write the music and lyrics...basically leaving it up to him to write the song. Then, Perry not only wanted a writing credit but insisted on being listed first in the credits....even tho he contributed nothing to the actual writing of the song. "Faithfully" is another example where Perry is published with a writing credit.

Perry made his contributions..."Lights", "Patiently"< sure...but you have no idea what he did specifically on all those songs to get a writing credit. Nobody does.

He was NOT "THE" major force behind Infinity. That's just not true.

I guess he just did not do enough for it seems his "like a son" Neal had no problem kicking to the curb the man that "literally made Journey."

Of course not. Neal is a greedy bastard who is myopic. If he could see where the 'reunion' was going I bet he would have kept Chalfant, Rolie and Herbie and kept Perry out of the band...

But, that's not the way Neal rolls...flash enough money in his face and he'll bite. He kicked all the above to the curb for Perry, and then kissed the ass of Perry fans when he hired Arnel to get the Warl-mart deal for Revelation.

But, the bottom line is that from 1974-1984, Herbie Herbert made Journey.

May I repeat, Herbie did not hire Perry out of love and compassion, but out of necessity

You can repeat it all you want, you are still wrong. It was NOT a necessity. They had Fleischman and were writing Infinity and had even toured with Fleischman singing "Wheel In the Sky". They had already went down the 'new vocal' path. It was NOT a 'necessity' to hire Perry.

"Herbie made Infinity the success that it was" but he unable to make the three pre-Perry flops successes????

In those three albums they went from a 'backing band' to a band recording and releasing albums, to a successful touring band. So, yeah, I would say they were 'successful' in that context. But, things change and to keep moving forward, and Herbie pushed the band into making the correct changes.

All relevant to the point of their being incapable of creating successful crap w/o Perry.

It's irrelevant to 1974-1981.

“Augeri sounds so much like Perry you would think Scottish scientists were involved in the auditioning process.” RS 1998

"People who think Augeri sounds just like Perry, haven't really listened to Augeri sing." - me.

“Journey believing with the Filipino Steve Perry sound-alike, Arnel Pineda.” RS 7/2008

"Journey will be done within five years." - me (BTW, that's not too far away now).

“Don’t make the news, just report it.” Korn

You aren't really 'reporting' anything....just repeating other people's opinion when you yourself said you would rather see facts and figures.

Steve Perry defined Journey

Nope...that was Herbie's job. Well, until Perry took that over during ROR.

“ Finally at the end Perry says the chorus now Jon.“ Perry is not there to give Jon the go ahead. I guess Jon misses that “panache and intuition.” Too bad Paul Rodgers turned down their invitation to join the band.

Funny how you have a hard time admitting that Journey works best when they work TOGETHER. "That's the difference between a band and a solo project..." Steve Perry.

Perry liked and helped Jon with his "ideas" unlike Waite who didn't seem to care of his "ideas."

That's not true either...all you have to do is listen to the final Babys album and you can hear Jonathan all over it...Waite may have rejected SOME of Can's ideas (Open Arms) but NOT all of them.

“ was uncomfortable with the corporate rock image that he felt the band had presented and has been a solo artist ever since.” Bad English/Waite/1991

Go read Jonathan's Force interview about BE. Two sides and all that..."Neal, Rick and I had a 'Black Crowes' mentality for this band. We didn't have to be a kiss-ass corporate rock band. But, that's what we became. Jonathan Cain, Neal Schon, John Waite and Ricky Phillips can't write songs good enough to be on the album? WRONG. We had a number one song but we couldn't sell 2000 seats. That told me all I needed to know."

“There was' steady progress from Infinity thru Departure” with platinum albums.” Did NOT have to worry about being cut by Columbia.

"Journey was still a fledging rock band..." Robyn Flanns.

“The song that turned nobody into somebody ‘Lovin Touchin Squeezin.” 2010

"...With only one top 10 song" Robyn Flanns.

ALL “SUPERSTAR SUCCESS WITH STEVE PERRY” AND “NO SUPERSTAR SUCCESS [WITHOUT] PERRY.” “That is a FACT you are ignoring.”

No, it's just irrelevant....because Infinity, Evolution, Departure, Dream After Dream, Captured, and even TBF are not 'superstar' successful - even with Steve Perry.

What I just said above proves otherwise. it took all of them...and adding Jonathan pushed them into Superstars. Giving one more credit then the others diminishes what the others brought to the table. i refuse to do that.

Perry is the major reason for their success. And if you don’t believe that “Name one successful album that does not bear the name of Steve Perry, and I’ll name four that does not bear the name of Jonathan Cain.

That's not my argument. It's a stoopid argument. Name one that doesn't have Neal Schon's name on it. By YOUR OWN ARGUMENT, that must mean that all success comes from Neal Schon.

It appears “Jonathan pushed them into Superstars” only works when Perry is around.

YES...and Steve Smith, and Ross Valory.

I'm not diminishing ANYBODY.
'

That “panache and intuition” are missing. I’m sure Augeri and Arnel would like some of that “pushed” from Cain. Then, they would not have had/have to spend the rest of their days “screwed.”

Yes, they would because the direction they took their music over the past five years or so.

Still looking for Schon on the Top 100 guitarist lists……

Why would you waste your time doing that?

“What you seem to forget is Jonathan [NOT PERRY] was a writer on EVERY SONG from” Arrival to Eclipse

You need to look up your facts...because the above is not true.

, all FLOPS with a karaoke fluke.

The Augeri years do not sound like 80's throwback at all.

Steve Perry defined Journey and that’s the sound people want to hear…. You handful of people who like “Eclipse” do not matter.

Perry did not 'define' Journey...they all did that.

Eclipse is a good album...but I never said it would sell anything. In fact, when people started the ridiculous sales predictions when it was released, I said, well, go look it up yourself.

"Nothing to do with Steve Perry" by choice, but by necessity.....“We want to go back to the way we sounded in the Steve Perry era.” Neal 12/2007

So, you take a quote from me explaining another quote from me that you made....and you are attaching that to something Neal Schon said. The two have nothing to do with each other.

And Journey’s “future” seemingly would have end on second album just like with Eclipse. The colossal flop of Eclipse, and the band having to bury all the songs, just proves that the fans just want the nostalgic sound.

Of course...they pandered to the Perry fans after all the DSB promotion...did you enjoy having Neal's lips against your ass? Who do you think bought all of those Revelation albums? Soto fans?

They NEVER would have been playing songs from Eclipse had it been w/karaoke rerecords, just like none from Revelation are being played now.

Facts disagree with you. I saw Journey over a year after Revelation was released and they STILL performed three Revelation songs. They would have been able to do the same with Eclipse if it had been in that package instead.

If Perry were in the band, they would never record or tour again.

“New Orleans Arena by Keith Spera - The Times-Picayune
September 13, 2011
“If Steve Perry, the voice behind the band's best known songs, were to come out of retirement - Journey could headline stadiums. “

Posting somebody's elses opinion does not change the FACT that Steve Perry has not completed a tour since the Frontiers tour, and that he hasn't released a new album since TBF. Journey with Steve Perry is no Journey at all. That is a FACT, not an opinion.

[whirlwind]

Posting somebody's elses opinion does not change the FACT that Steve Perry has not completed a tour since the Frontiers tour, and that he hasn't released a new album since TBF. Even so, Journey without Steve Perry is no Journey at all. That is a FACT, not an opinion.[/quote]



Fixed it for you Monker.

[donnaplease]

I started skipping over the quote-a-rama posts.... sheesh, how do you guys have time for all that?

We should all agree that it took the 3 main ingredients - Perry, Cain, and Schon - to make the "legacy" era that the current lineup (per JC's admission) is trying to create. Together they made the magic. Personally I like the Rolie era as well, but get that the stratospheric success came after he left.

Gideon, I listen to several different "soft rock" stations on XM and iheartradio and "oh sherrie" and "Foolish Heart" are played a LOT. So is classic Journey. No current era (although after it was first released I heard AATY a few times). It may not be top-40, but it's played alongside of Adele and other currently successful artists. Not too shabby, IMO.

[annie89509]

I think Kor'n is on a roll and Monker is just picking at straws to defend his position(s) at this point.
Regarding Infinity...
While it's true the band already started to write for their upcoming album with RF as their frontman...Robert revealed (years later in a 2001 nterview) that there was some frustration with his seemingly lack of prolificity in taking the hooks and ideas given to him and formulating into finished songs....seemingly is the responsibility of the lead singer. One can poo-poo SP's credits on 8 of the 10 songs...no one here (including Monker) knows exactly what each member contributed...even the skeptics on this Board can't deny that those songs have the SP style stamped all over it.
Go check out the yt videos of Journey w/RF (circa 1977) concert (Crater Head ? Honolulu). Would RF's singing bring the success to Journey that SP's voice have? I say "no." The band may have preferred Robert (GR - BTM - "this guys a crooner, we wanted a screamer"), but HH knew better...that SP was a better fit to bring Journey success. Years later, he criticized RF as "being a poodle" and the reason he was let go... (which, btw, Robert rebuked in the 2001 interview). I believe it is always easy for Herbie to denigrate others to prop himself up.

[Gideon]

:lol: I think Kor'n is on a roll and Monker is just picking at straws to defend his position(s) at this point.

Words fail to convey how shocked I am that you'd side with Kor'n.