Anyone Know?

[Michigan Girl]

:lol: I think Kor'n is on a roll and Monker is just picking at straws to defend his position(s) at this point.

Words fail to convey how shocked I am that you'd side with Kor'n.

Words fail to convey how shocked I am that a great debater, such as
yourself, cannot see that Kor'n is winning this ages old debate and making
it new and interesting to boot. He knows his subject and he knows the opposing
argument ...although Monker makes a great opponent. Hell, he even has the
favorite era thread on his side; granted, it is but a miniscule fraction of the
fan base, but it is what it is.
Your self proclaimed winning quote from the ever gracious Perry just
proves the man has class. I think Cain has made similar statements, which
proves he has brains.

Come on you can do better.

[Gideon]

It's precisely because I'm such a great debater {thank you, btw} that I can recognize that his/her arguments have all the structural integrity of a house of cards built in SoCal in the middle of earthquake season.

The statistics and anecdotes intersect on one fact: the addition of Jonathan Cain elevated Journey from cult stars to super stars. The album sales and certifications say so, as does SP himself. It was Cain who brought DSB, Open Arms, and Faithfully to the table. Journey's lack of modern success can be explained as a drastic change in the musical climate; whereas SP enjoyed success only at the height of Journey's own. Removed from that, FTLOSM achieved a fourth of what Street Talk did. Two years later, Trial By Fire rolls around and twice outsells FTLOSM and that's without a supporting tour! In fact, the more control over Journey that SP assumed, the more their album sales suffered {cf. Raised on Radio's sales with the two earlier records}. As far as the media is concerned, the focus has always been on JOURNEY's hits, not SP's solo work. It's not "Oh Sherrie" that various institutions scramble to campaign with, either in sports or politics.

We can go back and forth on the issue ad infinitum, but at the end of the day, nothing has changed. Neither Monker nor I attribute all the success to Cain {facetious remarks aside}. But the idea that it was all SP is simply, completely unsupported by any of the available evidence. Otherwise, his efforts outside Journey would rival or surpass his efforts inside Journey.

[Michigan Girl]

It's precisely because I'm such a great debater {thank you, btw} that I can recognize that his/her arguments have all the structural integrity of a house of cards built in SoCal in the middle of earthquake season.

The statistics and anecdotes intersect on one fact: the addition of Jonathan Cain elevated Journey from cult stars to super stars. The album sales and certifications say so, as does SP himself. It was Cain who brought DSB, Open Arms, and Faithfully to the table. Journey's lack of modern success can be explained as a drastic change in the musical climate; whereas SP enjoyed success only at the height of Journey's own. Removed from that, FTLOSM achieved a fourth of what Street Talk did. Two years later, Trial By Fire rolls around and twice outsells FTLOSM and that's without a supporting tour! In fact, the more control over Journey that SP assumed, the more their album sales suffered {cf. Raised on Radio's sales with the two earlier records}. As far as the media is concerned, the focus has always been on JOURNEY's hits, not SP's solo work. It's not "Oh Sherrie" that various institutions scramble to campaign with, either in sports or politics.

We can go back and forth on the issue ad infinitum, but at the end of the day, nothing has changed. Neither Monker nor I attribute all the success to Cain {facetious remarks aside}. But the idea that it was all SP is simply, [u]completely unsupported by any of the available evidence. [i]Otherwise, his efforts outside Journey would rival or surpass his efforts inside Journey[/i][/u].

You can never attribute all of the success of a group effort to one individual;
but the band was thriving without Cain and it has not yet thrived without the
Perry name … that could be what K’orn is saying.
We're talking about JOURNEY ...SP’s solo efforts have far succeeded any of JC's solo efforts, puhleese!!

[Gideon]

You can never attribute all of the success of a group effort to one individual;

I'm glad you see things my way.

but the band was thriving without Cain and it has not yet thrived without the
Perry name … that could be what K’orn is saying.

The band was doing well without Cain and but his was the pole that vaulted them into super-stardom. {I hope Tito appreciates the double entendre.}

We're talking about JOURNEY ...SP’s solo efforts have far succeeded any of JC's solo efforts, puhleese!!

No one compared the two.
JC's albums are overwhelmingly instrumental, a genre which has statistically never enjoyed the same mainstream attention or interest as vocal-oriented music.

[Abitaman]

house of cards built in SoCal in the middle of earthquake season.
.

I did not know there was a season for earthquakes

[Michigan Girl]

You can never attribute all of the success of a group effort to one individual;

I'm glad you see things my way.

I'm glad you see things my way.

but the band was thriving without Cain and it has not yet thrived without the
Perry name … that could be what K’orn is saying.

The band was doing well without Cain and but his was the pole that vaulted them into super-stardom. {I hope Tito appreciates the double entendre.}

FACT~records sales increased, due to the fresh new input/talent Cain brought to the table (per Perry)
Also FACT~the band was thriving pre~Cain ...they were filling the same venues as they were post~Cain.
FACT~the band was thriving = increased sales and increased tour stops w/ea. release pre~Cain and plus Perry (save DAD).

We're talking about JOURNEY ...SP’s solo efforts have far succeeded any of JC's solo efforts, puhleese!!

No one compared the two.JC's albums are overwhelmingly instrumental, a genre which has statistically never enjoyed the same mainstream attention or interest as vocal-oriented music.

And I wasn't comparing SP's solo career to Journey's, either, regardless of the genre. Which way
do you want it?!?

[Gideon]

house of cards built in SoCal in the middle of earthquake season.
.

I did not know there was a season for earthquakes

True, isn't it 24/7 for California?

FACT~records sales increased, due to the fresh new input/talent Cain brought to the table (per Perry)

Well said.

And I wasn't comparing SP's solo career to Journey's, either, regardless of the genre. Which way
do you want it?!?

That's because no one suggested JC was the sole, singular individual behind Journey's success. People have done so since the dawn of time for SP, and that's where a comparison enters the equation.

[Monker]

The band may have preferred Robert (GR - BTM - "this guys a crooner, we wanted a screamer"), but HH knew better...that SP was a better fit to bring Journey success. Years later, he criticized RF as "being a poodle" and the reason he was let go... (which, btw, Robert rebuked in the 2001 interview). I believe it is always easy for Herbie to denigrate others to prop himself up.

That is not all that Herbie said. RF brought in his own management and was a pain in the ass to deal with because of al the demands he brought along with it. That does not go along AT ALL with the vision Herbie had for the band being a "Grateful Dead" type of family.

Regardless of how you look at it, the band had their "new vocal direction" before Perry was brought into the band. Using that as the reason Perry was brought in is fiction - it is simply not true. The historical FACTS do not back that up - at all.

[Monker]

:lol: I think Kor'n is on a roll and Monker is just picking at straws to defend his position(s) at this point.

Words fail to convey how shocked I am that you'd side with Kor'n.

Words fail to convey how shocked I am that a great debater, such as
yourself, cannot see that Kor'n is winning this ages old debate and making
it new and interesting to boot.f

I'm not even going into the 'age old debate'. He is - and I just don't give a crap about it any longer, and haven't for a long time. All of this insulting the current Journey is irrelevant.

All I have been arguing, before Korn even joined in, is that Journey did not hit their writing stride until Jonathan Cain joined. Steve Perry did not do it alone. That is another historical fact. A fact that Korn and his "All success comes from Steve Perry" fantasy can not deal with.

[Monker]

You can never attribute all of the success of a group effort to one individual;

Korn does.

but the band was thriving without Cain

Before Escape - 2x platinum albums, a handful of top 40 sings and one top 10, Able to headline tours, but open for the Stones.

After Escape - 8x platinum album, five hit singles on one album, headlining record breaking tours that would equate to anything the Stones would do.

They had their heads above water before Escape, but were still doggy paddling. After Escape, they were like Olympic swimmers. Steve Perry did not bring that level of success to the band. Period.

[Monker]

FACT~the band was thriving = increased sales and increased tour stops w/ea. release pre~Cain and plus Perry (save DAD).

Oh, please Infinity, Evolution, and Departure all sold about the same. Last I looked, they were all 3x platinum. In fact, I think Evolution sold LESS then Infinity at that time. I'd love to see a good comparison to the Departure tour and the Escape tour. I have a hard time believing that by the end of the Escape tour that they were selling the same as the end of Departure. Where is the evidence for that? I know by the Frontiers tour, they were breaking records in stadiums....they were not doing that in the 70's.

[slucero]

DEPARTURE TOUR
1 Departure 1980 Tucson, AZ Babys
2 Departure 1980 Phoenix, AZ
3 Departure 1980 Albuquerque, NM
4 Departure 1980 Oklahoma City, OK
5 Departure 1980 Fort Worth, TX
6 Departure 1980 Houston, TX
7 Departure 1980 Beaumont, TX
8 Departure 1980 Little Rock, AK
9 Departure 1980 Baton Rouge, LA
10 Departure 1980 Biloxi, MS
11 Departure 1980 Jackson, MS
12 Departure 1980 Birmingham, AL
13 Departure 1980 Fort Meyers, FL
14 Departure 1980 Lakeland, FL
15 Departure 1980 Miami, FL
16 Departure 1980 Jacksonville, Fl
17 Departure 1980 St. Petersburg, FL
18 Departure 1980 Midsouth Coliseum. Memphis, TN Babys
19 Departure 1980 Assembly Hall. Champaign, IL
20 Departure 1980 Louisville, KY
21 Departure 1980 Nashville, TN
22 Departure 1980 Elliot Hall of Music. Purdue University. West Lafayette, IN Babys
23 Departure 1980 Utica, NY
24 Departure 1980 Springfield, MA
25 Departure 1980 Cleveland, OH
26 Departure 1980 Pittsburgh, PA
27 Departure 1980 Cleveland, OH
28 Departure 1980 Cobo Hall. Detroit, MI
29 Departure 1980 Cobo Hall. Detroit, MI
30 Departure 1980 Cobo Hall. Detroit, MI
31 Departure 1980 Cobo Hall. Detroit, MI
32 Departure 1980 Cobo Hall. Detroit, MI
33 Departure 1980 Cincinnati, OH
34 Departure 1980 Indianapolis, IN
35 Departure 1980 South Bend, IN
36 Departure 1980 Iowa Jam '80. State Fairgrounds Grandstand. Des Moines, IA Molly Hatchet, Toto, Babys, Off Broadway
37 Departure 1980 Rosemont Horizon. Chicago, IL Babys
38 Departure 1980 Cedar Rapids, IA
39 Departure 1980 Springfield, IL
40 Departure 1980 Seattle, WA
41 Departure 1980 Portland, OR
42 Departure 1980 Honolulu, HW
43 Departure 1980 Toledo, OH
44 Departure 1980 Toledo, OH
45 Departure 1980 Milwaukee, WI
46 Departure 1980 Arrowhead Stadium. Kansas City, MO April Wine, Kenny Loggins, Doobie Brothers
47 Departure 1980 St. Louis, MO
48 Departure 1980 Springfield, MO
49 Departure 1980 Tusla, OK
50 Departure 1980 Omaha, NB
51 Departure 1980 Denver, CO
52 Departure 1980 Bicentennial Center. Salina, KS
53 Departure 1980 Los Angeles, CA
54 Departure 1980 Oakland Stadium. Oakland, CA Black Sabbath/Cheap Trick/Molly Hatchet
55 Departure 1980 Bloomington, MN
56 Departure 1980 Alpine Valley, WI
57 Departure 1980 Atwood Stadium. Flint, MI Pat Benatar & Eddie Money
58 Departure 1980 Cobo Hall. Detroit, MI
59 Departure 1980 Cobo Hall. Detroit, MI
60 Departure 1980 Montreal, Quebec
61 Departure 1980 Saratogo, NY
62 Departure 1980 Syracuse, NY
63 Departure 1980 Buffalo, NY
64 Departure 1980 Rochester, NY
65 Departure 1980 Nassau, NY
66 Departure 1980 Providence, RI
67 Departure 1980 Atlanta, CA
68 Departure 1980 Philadelphia, PA
69 Departure 1980 Allentown, PA
70 Departure 1980 New Haven, CT
71 Departure 1980 Largo, MD
72 Departure 1980 Capitol Centre. Landover, MD
73 Departure 1980 Hampton, VA
74 Departure 1980 Mobile, AL
75 Departure 1980 Knoxville, TN
76 Departure 1980 Dayton, OH
77 Departure 1980 Chicago, IL
78 Departure 1980 Hamburg, Germany
79 Departure 1980 West Berlin, Germany
80 Departure 1980 Offenbach, West Germany
81 Departure 1980 Nurmberg, West Germany
82 Departure 1980 Munich, West Germany
83 Departure 1980 Heidelberg, West Germany
84 Departure 1980 Stuttgart, West Germany
85 Departure 1980 Zurich, Switzerland
86 Departure 1980 Dortmund, West Germany
87 Departure 1980 London, England
88 Departure 1980 Shibuya Kokaido, Shibuya. Tokyo, Japan
89 Departure 1980 (Matinee & Evening) International Exposition Hall. Osaka, Japan
90 Departure 1980 Nakano Sun Plaza. Tokyo, Japan
91 Departure 1980 Koseinenkin Hall, Shinjyuku. Tokyo, Japan
92 Departure 1981 Festival Hall. Osaka, Japan
93 Departure 1981 Nagoya Kokaido. Nagoya, Japan
94 Departure 1981 Koseinenkin Hall, Shinjyuku., Tokyo, Japan
95 Departure 1981 Koseinenkin Hall, Shinjyuku. Tokyo, Japan


ESCAPE TOUR
1 Escape 1981 Nakano Sun Plaza Hall, Nakano. Tokyo, Japan Tensaw(Japanese)
2 Escape 1981 Massey Hall. Toronto, ONT
3 Escape 1981 Civic Centre. Ottawa, ONT Toronto/Billy Squier
4 Escape 1981 The Forum. Montreal, QUE Toronto/Billy Squier
5 Escape 1981 Le Colisee. Quebec City, QUE Toronto/Billy Squier
6 Escape 1981 Cumberland County Civic Center. Portland, ME Point Blank
7 Escape 1981 Saratoga Performing Arts Center. Saratoga, NY
8 Escape 1981 Baltimore, MD
9 Escape 1981 Cape Cod, MA
10 Escape 1981 Cleveland, OH
11 Escape 1981 Cleveland, OH
12 Escape 1981 Poplar Creek Music Theater, Hoffman Estates, IL.
13 Escape 1981 Poplar Creek Music Theater, Hoffman Estates, IL.
14 Escape 1981 Alpine Valley Amphitheater. East Troy, WI Greg Kihn
15 Escape 1981 Alpine Valley Amphitheater. East Troy, WI Greg Kihn
16 Escape 1981 Pine Knob. Clarkston, MI Greg Kihn Band
17 Escape 1981 Pine Knob. Clarkston, MI Greg Kihn Band
18 Escape 1981 Pine Knob. Clarkston, MI Greg Kihn Band
19 Escape 1981 Pine Knob. Clarkston, MI Greg Kihn Band
20 Escape 1981 Pine Knob. Clarkston, MI Greg Kihn Band
21 Escape 1981 Pine Knob. Clarkston, MI Greg Kihn Band
22 Escape 1981 Ames. IW
23 Escape 1981 St. Paul, MN
24 Escape 1981 Kemper Arena. Kansas City, MO Point Blank
25 Escape 1981 Tulsa, OK
26 Escape 1981 Wichita, KS
27 Escape 1981 Omaha, NB Loverboy
28 Escape 1981 St. Louis, MO
29 Escape 1981 Bloomington, IN
30 Escape 1981 Lexington, KY
31 Escape 1981 Cincinnati, OH
32 Escape 1981 Terre Haute, IN
33 Escape 1981 Rosemont Horizon. Chicago, IL Greg Kihn
34 Escape 1981 Assembly Hall. Champaign, IL Greg Kihn
35 Escape 1981 Athens, OH
36 Escape 1981 Civic Arena. Pittsburgh, PA Point Blank
37 Escape 1981 Syracuse, NY
38 Escape 1981 Buffalo, NY
39 Escape 1981 Providence, RI
40 Escape 1981 Hartford Civic Center. Hartford, CT
41 Escape 1981 Hamstead, NY
42 Escape 1981 Philadelphia, PA
43 Escape 1981 Philadelphia, PA
44 Escape 1981 Hampton Rhodes, VA
45 Escape 1981 Jacksonville, FL
46 Escape 1981 Atlanta, GA
47 Escape 1981 Columbia, SC
48 Escape 1981 Charlotte, NC
49 Escape 1981 Savannah, Ga.
50 Escape 1981 Lakeland, FL
51 Escape 1981 Lakeland, FL
52 Escape 1981 Miami, FL
53 Escape 1981 Knoxville, TN
54 Escape 1981 Nashville, TN
55 Escape 1981 Memphis, TN
56 Escape 1981 Municipal Auditorium. Mobile, AL Loverboy
57 Escape 1981 Baton Rouge, LA
58 Escape 1981 Little Rock, AR
59 Escape 1981 The Summit. Houston, TX
60 Escape 1981 The Summit. Houston, TX
61 Escape 1981 Dallas, TX
62 Escape 1981 Austin, TX
63 Escape 1981 Tingley Coliseum, Albuquerque, NM
64 Escape 1981 Amarillo, TX
65 Escape 1981 Las Cruces, TX Loverboy
66 Escape 1981 Tucson, AZ
67 Escape 1981 Phoenix, AZ
68 Escape 1981 Denver CO
69 Escape 1981 Salt Lake, UT
70 Escape 1981 San Diego, CA
71 Escape 1981 Forum. Los Angeles, CA Loverboy
72 Escape 1981 Forum. Los Angeles, CA Loverboy
73 Escape 1981 Forum. Los Angeles, CA Loverboy
74 Escape 1981 Forum. Los Angeles, CA Loverboy
75 Escape 1981 Fresno, CA
76 Escape 1981 Cow Palace. San Francisco, CA Loverboy
77 Escape 1981 Cow Palace. San Francisco, CA Loverboy
78 Escape 1981 Pocatello, ID
79 Escape 1981 Cow Palace. San Francisco, CA (Cable Car Benefit)
80 Escape 1981 Vancouver, B.C.
81 Escape 1981 Seattle, WA
82 Escape 1981 Seattle, WA
83 Escape 1981 Portland, OR
84 Escape 1981 Portland, OR
85 Escape 1981 Oakland Coliseum, CA
86 Escape 1981 Cow Palace, San Francisco, CA
87 Escape 1981 Cow Palace, San Francisco, CA (Joined w/ the 49ers)
88 Escape 1981 NBC Arena. Honolulu, Hawaii
89 Escape 1981 NBC Arena. Honolulu, Hawaii
90 Escape 1981 Friday’s (TV Appearance)
91 Escape 1981 Tom Snyder Show (TV Appearance)
92 Escape 1982 San Palace Hall, Fukuoka
93 Escape 1982 Kyotokaikan, Kyoto
94 Escape 1982 Festival Hall, Osaka
95 Escape 1982 Osaka prefectural gymnasium, Osaka
96 Escape 1982 Nagoya Kokaido, Nagoya
97 Escape 1982 Budokan Hall, Tokyo (This was their first Budokan apperance)
98 Escape 1982 Yukohama gymnasium, Yokohama
99 Escape 1982 Vancouver, BC Greg Kihn Band
100 Escape 1982 Calgary, ALB Greg Kihn Band
101 Escape 1982 Edmonton, ALB Greg Kihn Band
102 Escape 1982 Winnipeg, MAN Greg Kihn Band
103 Escape 1982 Toronto, ONT Greg Kihn Band
104 Escape 1982 Philadelphia Spectrum Greg Kihn Band
105 Escape 1982 Joe Louis Arena. Detroit, MI Greg Kihn Band
106 Escape 1982 Rosemont Horizon. Chicago, IL Greg Kihn Band
107 Escape 1982 Rosemont Horizon. Chicago, IL Greg Kihn Band
108 Escape 1982 Rosemont Horizon. Chicago, IL Greg Kihn Band
109 Escape 1982 Rosemont Horizon. Chicago, IL Greg Kihn Band
110 Escape 1982 McNichols Arena. Denver, CO Greg Kihn Band
111 Escape 1982 JFK Stadium, PA (Opened for Stones)
112 Escape 1982 JFK Stadium, PA (Opened for Stones)
113 Escape 1982 JFK Stadium, PA (Opened for Stones)
114 Escape 1982 Oakland Coliseum Oakland, CA Santana/Toto/Gamma/Tubes
115 Escape 1982 The Forum. Los Angeles, CA
116 Escape 1982 NBC Arena .Honolulu HI
117 Escape 1982 Osaka, Tokyo
118 Escape 1982 Rose Bowl, Pasadena, CA Blue Oyster Cult/Triumph/Aldo Nova

[annie89509]

The band may have preferred Robert (GR - BTM - "this guys a crooner, we wanted a screamer"), but HH knew better...that SP was a better fit to bring Journey success. Years later, he criticized RF as "being a poodle" and the reason he was let go... (which, btw, Robert rebuked in the 2001 interview). I believe it is always easy for Herbie to denigrate others to prop himself up.

That is not all that Herbie said. RF brought in his own management and was a pain in the ass to deal with because of al the demands he brought along with it. That does not go along AT ALL with the vision Herbie had for the band being a "Grateful Dead" type of family.

Regardless of how you look at it, the band had their "new vocal direction" before Perry was brought into the band. Using that as the reason Perry was brought in is fiction - it is simply not true. The historical FACTS do not back that up - at all.

Robert also disputed the contention that he "was a pain in the ass to deal with" in his own 2001 interview. So, let me get this straight...if all the other bandmembers got along swell with Robert, just how much of a troublemaker could he have been? Ever since that "Castles Burning" article got out, we've learned that Herbie had problems with most of the musicians in his band...with the exception of GR and Neal (his prodigal son). ... these same musicians... whose collective blood, sweat, and tears made him a very rich man.

True, Journey was embarking on a "new vocal direction" with the upcoming Infinity album. Speculation becomes would Journey have enjoyed the same success (2x platinum) with RF as their lead singer? No Lights...Patiently...Feeling that Way..Something to Hide...Opened the Door...etc.

Btw, I believe Kor'n was paraphrasing Neal (BTM) that it was SP that brought Journey all the success. And ... the incomparable poster JfB once made the comment that no one other than the hippies in the BA ever heard of Journey before SP's voice got on the record...that made me laugh/// . JfB...such a macho poster,,. and he's a perryfan .

[annie89509]

:lol: I think Kor'n is on a roll and Monker is just picking at straws to defend his position(s) at this point.

Words fail to convey how shocked I am that you'd side with Kor'n.

Words fail to convey how shocked I am that a great debater, such as
yourself, cannot see that Kor'n is winning this ages old debate and making
it new and interesting to boot. He knows his subject and he knows the opposing
argument ...although Monker makes a great opponent. Hell, he even has the
favorite era thread on his side; granted, it is but a miniscule fraction of the
fan base, but it is what it is.
Your self proclaimed winning quote from the ever gracious Perry just
proves the man has class. I think Cain has made similar statements, which
proves he has brains.

Come on you can do better.

Giddy, this is an old debate...no one is saying SP is the sole contributor for their success. But, in bringing up JC as the main reason for Journey reaching the stratosphere of superstar status, you conveniently dismiss the fact that the singer is the main conduit delivering song to listeners' ears. While, I personally feel the latter (Escape +) songs hold up better than their earlier songs, many many Journey fans have said they prefer the SP/GR era.
So you can't say SP is not the common denominator interwined between these 2 eras. And, don't say NS...it's the singing that general music public listen for.. not the instruments.

[Michigan Girl]

FACT~the band was thriving = increased sales and increased tour stops w/ea. release pre~Cain and plus Perry (save DAD).

Oh, please Infinity, Evolution, and Departure all sold about the same. Last I looked, they were all 3x platinum. In fact, I think Evolution sold LESS then Infinity at that time. I'd love to see a good comparison to the Departure tour and the Escape tour. I have a hard time believing that by the end of the Escape tour that they were selling the same as the end of Departure. Where is the evidence for that? I know by the Frontiers tour, they were breaking records in stadiums....they were not doing that in the 70's.

I know nothing about current sales of any release ...until G~boy posts them.
I referred to these releases as they were released ...the band was steadily
becoming more popular pre~Cain w/each new release; they were in no way hurting or backsliding.
Of course the climb continued w/Cain, but the point is that the band were not stagnated or in jeopardy
of losing anything ...but Rolie ...

[Michigan Girl]

:lol: I think Kor'n is on a roll and Monker is just picking at straws to defend his position(s) at this point.

Words fail to convey how shocked I am that you'd side with Kor'n.

Words fail to convey how shocked I am that a great debater, such as
yourself, cannot see that Kor'n is winning this ages old debate and making
it new and interesting to boot. He knows his subject and he knows the opposing
argument ...although Monker makes a great opponent. Hell, he even has the
favorite era thread on his side; granted, it is but a miniscule fraction of the
fan base, but it is what it is.
Your self proclaimed winning quote from the ever gracious Perry just
proves the man has class. I think Cain has made similar statements, which
proves he has brains.

Come on you can do better.

Giddy, this is an old debate...no one is saying SP is the sole contributor for their success. But, in bringing up JC as the main reason for Journey reaching the stratosphere of superstar status, you conveniently dismiss the fact that the singer is the main conduit delivering song to listeners' ears. While, I personally feel the latter (Escape +) songs hold up better than their earlier songs, many many Journey fans have said they prefer the SP/GR era. So you can't say SP is not the common denominator interwined between these 2 eras. And, don't say NS...it's the singing that general music public listen for.. not the instruments.

Thank you, Annie ...Giddy is not a stupid young man, but he thinks we are stupid loons.
While he claims not to give a single member credit for the success, he backhandedly gives one
member credit for the success.

[Michigan Girl]

Btw, I believe Kor'n was paraphrasing Neal (BTM) that it was SP that brought Journey all the success. And ... the incomparable poster JfB once made the comment that no one other than the hippies in the BA ever heard of Journey before SP's voice got on the record...that made me laugh/// . JfB...such a macho poster,,. and he's a perryfan .

Thank you again, Annie ...a direct quote for a direct quote. Now Giddy just has to decide
who he trusts more, Neal or Perry?!?

Love JFB ...

[Abitaman]

Btw, I believe Kor'n was paraphrasing Neal (BTM) that it was SP that brought Journey all the success. And ... the incomparable poster JfB once made the comment that no one other than the hippies in the BA ever heard of Journey before SP's voice got on the record...that made me laugh/// . JfB...such a macho poster,,. and he's a perryfan .

Thank you again, Annie ...a direct quote for a direct quote. Now Giddy just has to decide
who he trusts more, Neal or Perry?!?

Love JFB ...

Neither is worth trusting

[Michigan Girl]

That's because no one suggested JC was the sole, singular individual behind Journey's success. People have done so since the dawn of time for SP, and that's where a comparison enters the equation.

mmmmhmmm, so you say ...the comparisons should be solo or within Journey, silly boy.
If you are going to compare Perry's solo career to his career w/Journey then
you simply must do the same for JC. Jon writes and plays an instrument w/Journey
and without, Perry sings/writes ...we're citing success!!

[Monker]

FACT~the band was thriving = increased sales and increased tour stops w/ea. release pre~Cain and plus Perry (save DAD).

Oh, please Infinity, Evolution, and Departure all sold about the same. Last I looked, they were all 3x platinum. In fact, I think Evolution sold LESS then Infinity at that time. I'd love to see a good comparison to the Departure tour and the Escape tour. I have a hard time believing that by the end of the Escape tour that they were selling the same as the end of Departure. Where is the evidence for that? I know by the Frontiers tour, they were breaking records in stadiums....they were not doing that in the 70's.

I know nothing about current sales of any release ...until G~boy posts them.
I referred to these releases as they were released ...the band was steadily
becoming more popular pre~Cain w/each new release; they were in no way hurting or backsliding.
Of course the climb continued w/Cain, but the point is that the band were not stagnated or in jeopardy
of losing anything ...but Rolie ...

You can say that and believe it all you want...but it is NOT TRUE,. From initial sales, Infinity outsold Evolution by a tiny bit and Departure sold about what Infinity did...Caddyshack probably helped a lot, too.. NONE of them had outstanding charting singles, with the exception of LTS....which only topped out at #17, not top 10...But, it was their highest charting single of those three albums.

So, you can believe that they were steadily becoming more popular, but it is simply NOT TRUE. it's a myth that Perry fans WANT to believe.

I did NOT say they were 'hurting' or 'backsliding'...I said they were a moderately successful rock band prior to Escape...but they were stagnant - not steadily progressing the way Perry fans want to believe. Robyn Flanns called them a 'fledging' rock band before Escape, with reason. They were not able to take off to the heights they did with Escape.

If you look at journey-tribute.com, you will see that all 3 are at 3x platinum sales, current.

[Monker]

:lol: I think Kor'n is on a roll and Monker is just picking at straws to defend his position(s) at this point.

Words fail to convey how shocked I am that you'd side with Kor'n.

Words fail to convey how shocked I am that a great debater, such as
yourself, cannot see that Kor'n is winning this ages old debate and making
it new and interesting to boot. He knows his subject and he knows the opposing
argument ...although Monker makes a great opponent. Hell, he even has the
favorite era thread on his side; granted, it is but a miniscule fraction of the
fan base, but it is what it is.
Your self proclaimed winning quote from the ever gracious Perry just
proves the man has class. I think Cain has made similar statements, which
proves he has brains.

Come on you can do better.

Giddy, this is an old debate...no one is saying SP is the sole contributor for their success. But, in bringing up JC as the main reason for Journey reaching the stratosphere of superstar status, you conveniently dismiss the fact that the singer is the main conduit delivering song to listeners' ears. While, I personally feel the latter (Escape +) songs hold up better than their earlier songs, many many Journey fans have said they prefer the SP/GR era.
So you can't say SP is not the common denominator interwined between these 2 eras. And, don't say NS...it's the singing that general music public listen for.. not the instruments.

You are misinterpreting what we are saying.

The simple FACT is Steve Perry alone did NOT bring Journey the success that the band is remembered for. And, yes, KORN has been arguing this as "All success comes from Perry". Jonathan was the final piece of the puzzle of how Journey achieved the success they are remembered for. That does NOT mean that "all success comes from Jonathan Cain". It means that it was not until Jonathan was added to the band that 8x platinum albums could happen...but, it took ALL of them to write, record, and perform those songs....and Herbie to manage it all.

Saying such things does NOT diminish Perry's contributions. It brings his contributions down to earth and equates them to the rest of the band. Yes, he added vocals and was a focal point for the band. But, Neal added the 'second voice' of his guitar and became a focal point of the music. Jonathan was able to approach the songwriting in a very accessible way for the fans to help the band become mega-popular. And, Herbie was able to bring all of the above to us with his marketing and manager skills.

That is what Journey was...a team...not one person leading the charge and deserving the majority of the credit. The few times that happened, Journey was NOT at their best.

[Gideon]

:lol: I think Kor'n is on a roll and Monker is just picking at straws to defend his position(s) at this point.

Words fail to convey how shocked I am that you'd side with Kor'n.

Words fail to convey how shocked I am that a great debater, such as
yourself, cannot see that Kor'n is winning this ages old debate and making
it new and interesting to boot. He knows his subject and he knows the opposing
argument ...although Monker makes a great opponent. Hell, he even has the
favorite era thread on his side; granted, it is but a miniscule fraction of the
fan base, but it is what it is.
Your self proclaimed winning quote from the ever gracious Perry just
proves the man has class. I think Cain has made similar statements, which
proves he has brains.

Come on you can do better.

Giddy, this is an old debate...no one is saying SP is the sole contributor for their success. But, in bringing up JC as the main reason for Journey reaching the stratosphere of superstar status, you conveniently dismiss the fact that the singer is the main conduit delivering song to listeners' ears. While, I personally feel the latter (Escape +) songs hold up better than their earlier songs, many many Journey fans have said they prefer the SP/GR era.
So you can't say SP is not the common denominator interwined between these 2 eras. And, don't say NS...it's the singing that general music public listen for.. not the instruments.

You are misinterpreting what we are saying.

The simple FACT is Steve Perry alone did NOT bring Journey the success that the band is remembered for. And, yes, KORN has been arguing this as "All success comes from Perry". Jonathan was the final piece of the puzzle of how Journey achieved the success they are remembered for. That does NOT mean that "all success comes from Jonathan Cain". It means that it was not until Jonathan was added to the band that 8x platinum albums could happen...but, it took ALL of them to write, record, and perform those songs....and Herbie to manage it all.

Saying such things does NOT diminish Perry's contributions. It brings his contributions down to earth and equates them to the rest of the band. Yes, he added vocals and was a focal point for the band. But, Neal added the 'second voice' of his guitar and became a focal point of the music. Jonathan was able to approach the songwriting in a very accessible way for the fans to help the band become mega-popular. And, Herbie was able to bring all of the above to us with his marketing and manager skills.

That is what Journey was...a team...not one person leading the charge and deserving the majority of the credit. The few times that happened, Journey was NOT at their best.

QFT

[annie89509]

Hmmm.. this is a first....Giddy going quiet...
QFT???...MG is more street smart than I am...bet she knows what that means... lol

[Michigan Girl]

Hmmm.. this is a first....Giddy going quiet...
QFT???...MG is more street smart than I am...bet she knows what that means... lol

Quoted For Trouble ...

[Michigan Girl]

To Monker ...I'm still disagreeing w/you on the steady climb w/record sales and shows.

I don't know where you're pulling your inf. from, but from a personal standpoint I sat in this
venue for many nights ...

http://forums.melodicrock.com/phpBB/vie ... 08#4642908

which sold out night after night for the tours pre~Cain~Plus Perry~ for up to five nights in a row. Cobo Hall
was not a stadium, but several consecutive sold out shows is nothing to balk at (seating for 12,000 in the early
80's ;ate seventies ...not including floor= OVER 60,000 peopl shouting for Cain) unless you're
trying to diminish the popularity of the band pre~Cain . Then it was on to
Flint, Lansing, Saginaw, Grand Rapids.

If your part of the country did not catch on to Journymania
until Cain, that would be your loss. This has nothing to do w/loonism
and everything to do w/you trying to make it appear so.

The Evolution tour = 99 shows including Japan
Frontiers= 108 shows including Japan

[Deb]

100 Escape 1982 Calgary, ALB Greg Kihn Band

The one and only time I saw the classic Journey LIVE. LOL I even recall the concert review the next day in the paper. I was pissed, same country-music lovin' writer, who rarely ever gave positive rock reviews.......said they were too polished, etc. Ha, I remember thinking......Nah, they're just THAT good.

118 Escape 1982 Rose Bowl, Pasadena, CA Blue Oyster Cult/Triumph/Aldo Nova

Wow........Triumph, Aldo Nova and Journey all on the same bill. That would have been a killer one to see!

[Gideon]

Quoted For Trouble ...

Only when quoting you.

Hmmm.. this is a first....Giddy going quiet...

QFT???...MG is more street smart than I am...bet she knows what that means... lol

QTF means quoted for truth, i.e. Monker's post was succinct enough that I have no need to rehash it.

[Michigan Girl]

Quoted For Trouble ...

Only when quoting you.

Hmmm.. this is a first....Giddy going quiet...

QFT???...MG is more street smart than I am...bet she knows what that means... lol

QTF means quoted for truth, i.e. Monker's post was succinct enough that I have no need to rehash it.

lol ...I was being silly, like you.
And yes, even though Monker and I will never see eye to eye on
the success of the band pre~Cain ( Heck, even Rolie thought himself
crazy for leaving the band at that level of success ),
the post to which you refer is most copacetic.

[Monker]

To Monker ...I'm still disagreeing w/you on the steady climb w/record sales and shows.

I don't know where you're pulling your inf. from, but from a personal standpoint I sat in this
venue for many nights ...

http://forums.melodicrock.com/phpBB/vie ... 08#4642908

which sold out night after night for the tours pre~Cain~Plus Perry~ for up to five nights in a row. Cobo Hall
was not a stadium, but several consecutive sold out shows is nothing to balk at (seating for 12,000 in the early
80's ;ate seventies ...not including floor= OVER 60,000 peopl shouting for Cain) unless you're
trying to diminish the popularity of the band pre~Cain . Then it was on to
Flint, Lansing, Saginaw, Grand Rapids.

If your part of the country did not catch on to Journymania
until Cain, that would be your loss. This has nothing to do w/loonism
and everything to do w/you trying to make it appear so.

The Evolution tour = 99 shows including Japan
Frontiers= 108 shows including Japan

Then where is your evidence? I was talking about album and singles because you said 'with each new release'...and this has all been jumbled up with album sales pre-Perry and Columbia threatening to cut the band.

If you can, point to some legitimate evidence that shows how tour sales increased with each tour, then do it. The list earlier is interesting but really doesn't say much about how the tours actually went. And, your personal experience does not really show how the band was doing nationally, for the full tour.

And, you're right, it has nothing to do with 'loonism', since I have NEVER used that term to describe Perryheads.

[Michigan Girl]

To Monker ...I'm still disagreeing w/you on the steady climb w/record sales and shows.

I don't know where you're pulling your inf. from, but from a personal standpoint I sat in this
venue for many nights ...

http://forums.melodicrock.com/phpBB/vie ... 08#4642908

which sold out night after night for the tours pre~Cain~Plus Perry~ for up to five nights in a row. Cobo Hall
was not a stadium, but several consecutive sold out shows is nothing to balk at (seating for 12,000 in the early
80's ;ate seventies ...not including floor= OVER 60,000 peopl shouting for Cain) unless you're
trying to diminish the popularity of the band pre~Cain . Then it was on to
Flint, Lansing, Saginaw, Grand Rapids.

If your part of the country did not catch on to Journymania
until Cain, that would be your loss. This has nothing to do w/loonism
and everything to do w/you trying to make it appear so.

The Evolution tour = 99 shows including Japan
Frontiers= 108 shows including Japan

Then where is your evidence? I was talking about album and singles because you said 'with each new release'...and this has all been jumbled up with album sales pre-Perry and Columbia threatening to cut the band.

If you can, point to some legitimate evidence that shows how tour sales increased with each tour, then do it. The list earlier is interesting but really doesn't say much about how the tours actually went. And, your personal experience does not really show how the band was doing nationally, for the full tour.

And, you're right, it has nothing to do with 'loonism', since I have NEVER used that term to describe Perryheads.

I'll give it my best shot.
This feels like homework/research/term papers...