Islam taking over Paris streets!

General Intelligent Discussion & One Thread About That Buttknuckle

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Postby artist4perry » Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:38 am

StevePerryHair wrote:
artist4perry wrote:
StevePerryHair wrote:
artist4perry wrote:
Duncan wrote:
artist4perry wrote:The once beautiful catholic church the Haggia Sophia has now been turned into a mosque. It was a beautiful piece of art history. Now discs with Muslim writing cover once beautiful tile work, and historical artwork from the middle ages. My only concern is not with them being able to worship, but I only wonder why the need to invade, kill or harm anyone who thinks differently than you. (extremists of any religion is my concern)
This church was conquered. And the Muslim artwork clashes with the early mid-evil artwork. I think we need to stress that if Christian religion here is not allowed almost anywhere in public these days........what gives the muslims more rights than we have? And most christian religions today are peaceful. If we blocked streets someone would be screaming to high heaven to get our butts arrested! LOL! But put on a head to toe sheet and ................................we must honor their rights! LOL!

I honestly have nothing against peaceful Muslims. I do think we need to beware a con-questing religious group of muslims who are apparently growing an agenda of takeover. [/img]


I've lost count of the number of times I've have seen footage of Christian fundamentalists blocking streets protesting against gay rights, abortion etc. What's the difference?


Did I note I do not approve of extremists of any religion? I have never protested abortion clinics, gay rights etc...... :roll: :roll: Look not all religions are the same. For instance, I get tickled every time you guys bring up the crusades as the be all of christian evil. Uh...........Catholic church my friend. Most religions had to practice underground due to their murdering any other religious practice as heretics . The faith I believe in does not condone violence of any kind. Turn the other cheek my brother. Hug your neighbor, not mug your neighbor! That is my motto! :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:


Yes, Catholics ARE Christians.... so they aren't wrong when they say that :wink: And at the time of the Crusades and where they occured, they were the only predominately practicing Christian religion that existed. The Catholic religion was the religion that the other main stream christian churches broke from, yes. But as far as the majority of Christians at that time, they WERE Catholic. Back then to say you were Christian WAS Catholic. Now people deny Catholics are and I have a problem with that.


Look above.............I said Catholics today are not violent. And I did not say they were not Christians. I was noting the Catholics of that time period. I am sure many Catholic followers of that time did not condone the Crusades either. But what I was trying to point out was other Christian religions had to go underground to practice their faith. Literally. Because the Catholic families that run the church of that time would kill you if you believed in any thing other than what they taught.

I am just saying most Christian faiths today are peaceful. Sorry if I offended. :(


No, Im not offended. The Christians at that time were wrong. Forcing religion on anyone in a violent way IS wrong. That was most certainly not what Jesus taught. But that is how those at the time interpretted Christianity, yes, like extremist Muslims do today. Spreading the faith at any cost. Not even seeing it as murder. But many Christian churches today it seems like to separate Catholic out, as a separate religion, just as Jewish, and Islam are, and they have Christian as a whole separate entity, aside from them. I am not saying necessarily that you think that way, but I have heard it "from the horses mouth" so to speak, at a non-demoniational bible study I tried once. The more evangelical a Christian church is, the more they like to point out that they don't include Catholics as being "Christian". So that is what I have a problem with. Not you Ginger!!


Great! I think we are mostly on the same page. That Crusade was started by an evil family that run the church at that time. They were not doing God's will at all.
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Postby artist4perry » Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:03 am

Fact Finder wrote:Qur'an set on Fire at Ground Zero on 9/11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRcUdruhgyw


Moron..............now our troops are in real danger from nut jobs. Not to mention how brave will he feel when he and his loved ones are hunted down now? Thanks for nothing idiot! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Postby S2M » Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:17 am

Here's a sequel I'd like to see....ENOLA GAY II : The Return

Look for it in selected Theaters of War....Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, and North Korea
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Postby artist4perry » Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:42 am

Fact Finder wrote:
artist4perry wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:Qur'an set on Fire at Ground Zero on 9/11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRcUdruhgyw


Moron..............now our troops are in real danger from nut jobs. Not to mention how brave will he feel when he and his loved ones are hunted down now? Thanks for nothing idiot! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:



Ginger, how many Qur'ans did we Americans burn before 9/11 to incite the hijackers to do their deed? :wink:


Survery says: None!


Your right. But that does not stop the extremists from using this one act for recruitment now does it? Look at one dead cartoonist if you will. Now this man has put himself and others in danger. That is why it is dumb. I could care less if they burn a bible, Koran, or a copy of Dr. Seuss on the Loose. But the Bible, and Dr. Seuss will not result in someone innocent getting killed. Does he have a right to burn it? Yes. Do I love the Koran? No. Do I like Muslim Extremists? NO. But they use everything they can to recruit nut jobs to kill us, this is driving a tanker of gasoline into a bonfire. Not a great idea.
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Postby Monker » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:41 am

Fact Finder wrote:
artist4perry wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:
artist4perry wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:Qur'an set on Fire at Ground Zero on 9/11

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRcUdruhgyw


Moron..............now our troops are in real danger from nut jobs. Not to mention how brave will he feel when he and his loved ones are hunted down now? Thanks for nothing idiot! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:



Ginger, how many Qur'ans did we Americans burn before 9/11 to incite the hijackers to do their deed? :wink:


Survery says: None!


Your right. But that does not stop the extremists from using this one act for recruitment now does it? Look at one dead cartoonist if you will. Now this man has put himself and others in danger. That is why it is dumb. I could care less if they burn a bible, Koran, or a copy of Dr. Seuss on the Loose. But the Bible, and Dr. Seuss will not result in someone innocent getting killed. Does he have a right to burn it? Yes. Do I love the Koran? No. Do I like Muslim Extremists? NO. But they use everything they can to recruit nut jobs to kill us, this is driving a tanker of gasoline into a bonfire. Not a great idea.




"One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half. " - Winston Churchill


Romans 12:19-21 :
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
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Postby brywool » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:44 am

StyxCollector wrote:
brywool wrote:Gotcha. It worked out so well, we might as well repeat it. ;)


Well, unfortunately the Crusades also killed anyone but Christians, including Jews. Sorry, not a fan of that.


was being sarcastic. It don't make sense. You can't make peace.
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Postby trekman » Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:47 pm

Watch and be Warned! If we dont do something VERY soon Our life, Our Childrens Lifes and Grand childrens lives will be changed for the worse. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysBJ5G4m67s
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Postby Rip Rokken » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:05 am

Monker wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:"One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half. " - Winston Churchill


Romans 12:19-21 :
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


That "kill them with kindness" approach sometimes works with rude co-workers, but definitely not terrorists. People without consciences or any regard for human life are beyond being "touched" by the generosity of anyone they perceive as enemies. They recognize it as weakness and exploit it for their own benefit. Turn the other cheek with them and you'll get slapped twice. Wait upon the Lord and you'll wait forever without resolution. Someday this issue with Islam will come to a head in the U.S., and with countries like Iran obviously looking to build nuclear weapons, who knows how long away that is?
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Postby Monker » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:20 am

Rip Rokken wrote:
Monker wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:"One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half. " - Winston Churchill


Romans 12:19-21 :
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


That "kill them with kindness" approach sometimes works with rude co-workers, but definitely not terrorists. People without consciences or any regard for human life are beyond being "touched" by the generosity of anyone they perceive as enemies. They recognize it as weakness and exploit it for their own benefit. Turn the other cheek with them and you'll get slapped twice. Wait upon the Lord and you'll wait forever without resolution. Someday this issue with Islam will come to a head in the U.S., and with countries like Iran obviously looking to build nuclear weapons, who knows how long away that is?


These are not terrorists. These are people protesting at the 9/11 site.

The entire situation has become bullshit. People like FF judge all Muslims as terrorists and American life is doomed if we don't do something about them. That's wrong. They have been here the entire history of our country...not just since 9/11. Now the Muslims are becoming frustrated and pissed off because of the religious bigotry being thrown their way - all over the country.

Thank you Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, Republicans in general, and FOX for politicizing this and fanning the flames of this issue. Now it's out of control. Assholes.

People on both sides of this really need to step back and look at how they are acting. It's become absolutely ridiculous.
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Postby steveo777 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:35 am

Monker wrote:
Rip Rokken wrote:
Monker wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:"One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half. " - Winston Churchill


Romans 12:19-21 :
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


That "kill them with kindness" approach sometimes works with rude co-workers, but definitely not terrorists. People without consciences or any regard for human life are beyond being "touched" by the generosity of anyone they perceive as enemies. They recognize it as weakness and exploit it for their own benefit. Turn the other cheek with them and you'll get slapped twice. Wait upon the Lord and you'll wait forever without resolution. Someday this issue with Islam will come to a head in the U.S., and with countries like Iran obviously looking to build nuclear weapons, who knows how long away that is?


These are not terrorists. These are people protesting at the 9/11 site.

The entire situation has become bullshit. People like FF judge all Muslims as terrorists and American life is doomed if we don't do something about them. That's wrong. They have been here the entire history of our country...not just since 9/11. Now the Muslims are becoming frustrated and pissed off because of the religious bigotry being thrown their way - all over the country.

Thank you Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, Republicans in general, and FOX for politicizing this and fanning the flames of this issue. Now it's out of control. Assholes.

People on both sides of this really need to step back and look at how they are acting. It's become absolutely ridiculous.


No! Muslims need to just back off and recognize their proper place in American society. Either quit giving us and the rest of the world shit, or be gone. That simple. I know their agenda. I have a relative in the family who is partnered up with someone from Pakistan. He abuses every one on her side of the family, namely women. It's not just a stereotype....the way they treat the fairer sex. I've known too many Muslims. Not much variance in the way they were raised to think. And, I truely believe America is in danger if we don't rein them in. I wouldn't trust one of them as far as I can throw them. It's good thing Slurpees are self serve - the fuckers would probably poison us. :shock:
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Postby brywool » Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:56 am

Wow you guys, what's next lynchings??
NO. He's NOT Steve F'ing Perry. But he's Arnel F'ing Pineda and I'm okay with that.
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Postby steveo777 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:18 am

brywool wrote:Wow you guys, what's next lynchings??


That would be illegal. Doesn't mean we can't think about it though. :wink:
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Postby Rip Rokken » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:34 am

Monker wrote:
Rip Rokken wrote:
Monker wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:"One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half. " - Winston Churchill


Romans 12:19-21 :
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


That "kill them with kindness" approach sometimes works with rude co-workers, but definitely not terrorists. People without consciences or any regard for human life are beyond being "touched" by the generosity of anyone they perceive as enemies. They recognize it as weakness and exploit it for their own benefit. Turn the other cheek with them and you'll get slapped twice. Wait upon the Lord and you'll wait forever without resolution. Someday this issue with Islam will come to a head in the U.S., and with countries like Iran obviously looking to build nuclear weapons, who knows how long away that is?


These are not terrorists. These are people protesting at the 9/11 site.

The entire situation has become bullshit. People like FF judge all Muslims as terrorists and American life is doomed if we don't do something about them. That's wrong. They have been here the entire history of our country...not just since 9/11. Now the Muslims are becoming frustrated and pissed off because of the religious bigotry being thrown their way - all over the country.

Thank you Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, Republicans in general, and FOX for politicizing this and fanning the flames of this issue. Now it's out of control. Assholes.

People on both sides of this really need to step back and look at how they are acting. It's become absolutely ridiculous.


Sorry if I wasn't clear -- I'm talking about the Churchill quote and verse as general concepts. But, if you mean American politicians and Muslims when you say "both sides need to step back", it's ridiculous to think that radical Muslims will do that.
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Postby Rip Rokken » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:37 am

steveo777 wrote:No! Muslims need to just back off and recognize their proper place in American society. Either quit giving us and the rest of the world shit, or be gone. That simple. I know their agenda. I have a relative in the family who is partnered up with someone from Pakistan. He abuses every one on her side of the family, namely women. It's not just a stereotype....the way they treat the fairer sex. I've known too many Muslims. Not much variance in the way they were raised to think. And, I truely believe America is in danger if we don't rein them in. I wouldn't trust one of them as far as I can throw them. It's good thing Slurpees are self serve - the fuckers would probably poison us. :shock:


It's been a while, but I've had a few Muslim friends as well. One even fought in the Iran/Iraq war. They were nice guys but still had a misogynistic view of women they dated. It's just a cultural thing, and I never understood American women who preferred to date them -- figure they had self-esteem problems.
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Postby S2M » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:41 am

Fact Finder wrote:Image


Way to perpetuate the problem, FF....if you're not part of the solution....I've come to the conclusion that not ONE politician can run this country. On EITHER SIDE....everyone's corrupt. And most promise things that they cannot possibly deliver. And the common folf believe it hook, line, and sinker.....this country's fucked.
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Postby steveo777 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:07 am

S2M wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:Image


Way to perpetuate the problem, FF....if you're not part of the solution....I've come to the conclusion that not ONE politician can run this country. On EITHER SIDE....everyone's corrupt. And most promise things that they cannot possibly deliver. And the common folf believe it hook, line, and sinker.....this country's fucked.


Truer words were never spoken. The Muslim problem is gonna keep getting bigger and bigger, but until the people finally get it, it's gonna continue to get worse before it gets better. I do not think our forefathers aimed "freedom of religion" at the Islamic sect. Maybe it's time for an emergency constitutional amendment. Unfortunately, our founding fathers probably did not foresee the issues of today. In fact, many Christians have fled other countries out of the very real fear for their lives. Guess who they were fleeing from? The Muslims who were threatening to kill them and their families if they did not convert, or if they spoke ill of Islam. We must not allow them go gain the power they have in other regions of the globe.
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Postby Monker » Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:28 am

Rip Rokken wrote:
Monker wrote:
Rip Rokken wrote:
Monker wrote:
Fact Finder wrote:"One ought never to turn one's back on a threatened danger and try to run away from it. If you do that, you will double the danger. But if you meet it promptly and without flinching, you will reduce the danger by half. " - Winston Churchill


Romans 12:19-21 :
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


That "kill them with kindness" approach sometimes works with rude co-workers, but definitely not terrorists. People without consciences or any regard for human life are beyond being "touched" by the generosity of anyone they perceive as enemies. They recognize it as weakness and exploit it for their own benefit. Turn the other cheek with them and you'll get slapped twice. Wait upon the Lord and you'll wait forever without resolution. Someday this issue with Islam will come to a head in the U.S., and with countries like Iran obviously looking to build nuclear weapons, who knows how long away that is?


These are not terrorists. These are people protesting at the 9/11 site.

The entire situation has become bullshit. People like FF judge all Muslims as terrorists and American life is doomed if we don't do something about them. That's wrong. They have been here the entire history of our country...not just since 9/11. Now the Muslims are becoming frustrated and pissed off because of the religious bigotry being thrown their way - all over the country.

Thank you Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, Republicans in general, and FOX for politicizing this and fanning the flames of this issue. Now it's out of control. Assholes.

People on both sides of this really need to step back and look at how they are acting. It's become absolutely ridiculous.


Sorry if I wasn't clear -- I'm talking about the Churchill quote and verse as general concepts. But, if you mean American politicians and Muslims when you say "both sides need to step back", it's ridiculous to think that radical Muslims will do that.


Your statement above implies lumping all Muslims as radical Muslims and therefore it justifies a radical response. That is wrong...and is the very problem I am talking about. Why should Muslims not say the very thing you just did...that radical Christians won't back down. They will still burn the Koran. No place is 'safe' to build a Mosque and not have it threatened, defaced, or burned down. They are the ones making terrorist like threats against Muslims...publicly, even in this forum.

That is the problem now as I see it. And, I blame Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, FOX and the Republican party for making it such a "burning" issue. They are the ones who brought this issue to such attention and they are the ones who should take responsibility for all of the violence and death that may result from violence on BOTH sides. For what gain? To settle a blood wrath of Christian and Muslim religious zealots. How shameful for those who take up either side's argument.
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Postby steveo777 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:11 pm

Monker wrote:
Your statement above implies lumping all Muslims as radical Muslims and therefore it justifies a radical response. That is wrong...and is the very problem I am talking about. Why should Muslims not say the very thing you just did...that radical Christians won't back down. They will still burn the Koran. No place is 'safe' to build a Mosque and not have it threatened, defaced, or burned down. They are the ones making terrorist like threats against Muslims...publicly, even in this forum.

That is the problem now as I see it. And, I blame Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, FOX and the Republican party for making it such a "burning" issue. They are the ones who brought this issue to such attention and they are the ones who should take responsibility for all of the violence and death that may result from violence on BOTH sides. For what gain? To settle a blood wrath of Christian and Muslim religious zealots. How shameful for those who take up either side's argument.


They are not all radical, but......many who live and work in the USA support those who are. You gonna tell me that none of the money these Mosques raise goes into the various terrorist organization's caufers? Who the hell do you think provides the millions of dollars required to support their so called jihads and shit? This is not a religion of peace, not no way, no how. I will change my opinion the day I stop reading about their wide spread terror acts on a near daily basis. Supporting America does not mean allowing Islamist fundamentalists to propagate in our country. If you look around New York, there is a reason so many are there. More targets to convert, more money to be had and easier to get lost into the mix of the mass populace. My wife's sister's boyfriend from Pakistan did this. He came here as a tourist, then moved somewhere to New York and got lost in the crowd. He found a lot of Muslim bretheren to help him with everything from shelter, job, etc., to I.D. under an assumed name. Immigration has been looking for him for a couple years. He's an asshole with a gambling problem and all he has done is bilk people out of money. Someone is always looking for him because he keeps getting credit under fraudulent names.
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Postby Rip Rokken » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:29 pm

steveo777 wrote:
Monker wrote:
Your statement above implies lumping all Muslims as radical Muslims and therefore it justifies a radical response. That is wrong...and is the very problem I am talking about. Why should Muslims not say the very thing you just did...that radical Christians won't back down. They will still burn the Koran. No place is 'safe' to build a Mosque and not have it threatened, defaced, or burned down. They are the ones making terrorist like threats against Muslims...publicly, even in this forum.

That is the problem now as I see it. And, I blame Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, FOX and the Republican party for making it such a "burning" issue. They are the ones who brought this issue to such attention and they are the ones who should take responsibility for all of the violence and death that may result from violence on BOTH sides. For what gain? To settle a blood wrath of Christian and Muslim religious zealots. How shameful for those who take up either side's argument.


They are not all radical, but......many who live and work in the USA support those who are. You gonna tell me that none of the money these Mosques raise goes into the various terrorist organization's caufers? Who the hell do you think provides the millions of dollars required to support their so called jihads and shit? This is not a religion of peace, not no way, no how. I will change my opinion the day I stop reading about their wide spread terror acts on a near daily basis. Supporting America does not mean allowing Islamist fundamentalists to propagate in our country. If you look around New York, there is a reason so many are there. More targets to convert, more money to be had and easier to get lost into the mix of the mass populace. My wife's sister's boyfriend from Pakistan did this. He came here as a tourist, then moved somewhere to New York and got lost in the crowd. He found a lot of Muslim bretheren to help him with everything from shelter, job, etc., to I.D. under an assumed name. Immigration has been looking for him for a couple years. He's an asshole with a gambling problem and all he has done is bilk people out of money. Someone is always looking for him because he keeps getting credit under fraudulent names.


Do your country proud, son, and make a citizen's arrest!

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To Monker -- no, I'm not saying all Muslims are radical, of course not. But the point has already been well made, that people around the world are not living in fear of extremist Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. Radical Muslims, definitely yes. If the decent ones are unwilling to police their own and hold them accountable, then I don't have a great deal of sympathy for them if they get swept up with the extremists.
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Postby Rip Rokken » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:32 pm

S2M wrote:Way to perpetuate the problem, FF....if you're not part of the solution....I've come to the conclusion that not ONE politician can run this country. On EITHER SIDE....everyone's corrupt. And most promise things that they cannot possibly deliver. And the common folf believe it hook, line, and sinker.....this country's fucked.


I agree 100%. Wish things could change, but people need to step back and see the bigger picture. We are on a steady, downhill decline.
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Postby steveo777 » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:26 am

Fact Finder wrote:Now France is perpetuating this problem...


French Senate overwhelmingly votes to ban burqas in public http://bit.ly/9giif6
less than 5 seconds ago via breakingnews.com


That kind of sucks; it will be harder to identify them now. :P
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Postby SF-Dano » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:36 am

Muslim extremism happening in Europe right now.



Islamism on rise in Balkan states
Published Date: September 19, 2010

SKOPJE, Macedonia: An online music video praising Osama bin Laden has driven home a troubling new reality: A radical brand of Islam embraced by Al-Qaeda and the Taleban is gaining a foothold in the Balkans. "Oh Osama, annihilate the American army. Oh Osama, raise the Muslims' honor," a group of Macedonian men sing in Albanian, in video posted on YouTube last year and picked up by Macedonian media this August. "In September 2001 you conquered a power. We all pray for you.

Although most of Macedonia's ethnic Albanian minority are Muslims, they have generally been secular. But experts are now seeing an increasing radicalization in pockets of the country's Islamic community, particularly after armed groups from the ethnic Albanian minority, which forms a quarter of the population of 2.1 million, fought a brief war against Macedonian government forces in 2001.

It's a trend seen across the Balkans and has raised concerns that the region, which includes new European Union member Bulgaria, could become a breeding ground for terrorists with easy access to Western Europe. Many fear that radicalized European Muslims with EU passports could slip across borders and blend into society. At the center of the issue is the Wahhabi sect, an austere brand of Islam most prevalent in Saudi Arabia and practiced by bin Laden and the Taleban.

Wahhabism in Macedonia, the Balkans and in Europe has become more aggressive in the last 10 years," said Jakub Selimovski, head of religious education in Macedonia's Islamic community. He said Wahhabis were establishing a permanent presence in Macedonia where none existed before, and that "they are in Bosnia, here, Kosovo, Serbia, Croatia and lately they have appeared in Bulgaria". It is the first time a high-ranking official in the former Yugoslav republic's Islamic community has agreed to speak openly a
bout the presence and threat of radical Islam.

In Bulgaria, nearly one-sixth of the population of 7.6 million are Muslims who adhere to conventional Sunni beliefs. Ethnic peace has been maintained in the last 20 years. As elsewhere in the Balkans, however, Wahhabi incursions have led to a struggle for control of religion and Islamic community-owned property. Large amounts of money, allegedly from Muslim organizations abroad, have been spent in Bulgaria since the mid-1990s for more than 150 new mosques and so called "teaching centers" to spread Wahhabi
sm.

According to Bulgaria's former chief mufti, Nedim Gendzhev, some Muslim organizations were aiming to create a "fundamentalist triangle" formed by Bosnia, Macedonia and Bulgaria's Western Rhodope mountains. Local newspaper reports say radical Islam is being preached in different cities and villages in southern and northeastern Bulgaria. In 2003, Bulgarian authorities shut down a number of Islamic centers on the grounds they allegedly belonged to Islamic groups financed mainly by Saudi Arabians that possibl
y also had links to "radical organizations" such as the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Official statements said that the centers were shut down "to prevent terrorists getting a foothold in Bulgaria".

However, centers where radical brands of Islam are preached continue to crop up in the country, said political analyst Dimitar Avramov. "Along with the three official Muslim schools, there are at least seven other which are not registered and not controlled by the state," he said, adding that in the last 20 years some 3,000 young Muslims have graduated from these schools.

In neighboring Serbia last year, 12 Muslims - allegedly Wahhabis - from the tense southern Sandzak region were sentenced to up to 13 years in prison for planning terrorist attacks, including on the US Embassy in Belgrade. The presence of radical Muslims in Sandzak, the poorest region of Serbia, is linked to the advent of mujahedeen foreign fighters who joined Bosnian Muslims in their battle against the Serbs in Bosnia's 1992-95 independence war. In Bosnia, the issue of Wahhabi influence is one of the most
politically charged debates, with Bosnian Serbs maintaining there is a huge presence of Wahhabis in the country and Muslim Bosniaks downplaying the issue and at times claiming it does not exist.

Juan Carlos Antunez, a Spanish military specialist in religious extremism with years of experience in Bosnia, estimates there are about 3,000 people in Bosnia who have embraced this interpretation of Islam and only a small fraction of them are a potential security threat. In a study prepared for the Sarajevo-based Center for Advanced Studies in May, Antunez argued that Bosnia's official Islamic Community has been successful in curbing Wahhabi influence. Although it did not aggressively ostracize the Wahha
bis, it strictly controls the appointments of imams in mosques and lecturers in Islamic educational institutions in the country.

Ahmet Alibasic, a lecturer at the Faculty of Islamic Studies in Sarajevo, said most Wahhabis in Bosnia refrain from criticizing the Islamic Community and were even calling for unity among Muslims. "Their influence reached its peak in 2000, but it has since started falling and it continues to fall," Alibasic said, adding that measures taken by Bosnian authorities after 9/11 had a significant effect as the movement began to lose power after the closure and banning of several Islamic, mostly Saudi-backed, cha
rities which funded the movement.

In Albania, the issue is also charged. Ilir Kulla, former head of the government's department on religious issues, insisted the Wahhabis had not caused any problems in Albania. Kulla said hundreds of young Albanian men had been educated in universities in the Middle East, including in Saudi Arabia, and were now mosque leaders, but that there had been no attempt by Wahhabis to challenge the leadership of the country's Muslim community, which he insisted was still moderate.

But in Macedonia, the increasing clout of radical Islam is causing a rift in the country's Muslim community, with a power struggle developing within the country's official Islamic Religious Community between the moderate mainstream and the emerging Wahhabi wing. "A destructive, radical and extremist current has appeared with an intention of taking over the lead of the Islamic religious community," Selimovski said.

Authorities in Macedonia are reluctant to confirm any threat of radical Islam in the country. But a government official, speaking on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the topic, did acknowledge that "radical groups and their followers are being closely observed." Last year, three ethnic Albanian brothers originally from Macedonia were implicated - along with a Jordanian, a Turk and a Kosovo Albanian living in the US - in an alleged plot to attack the US Army's Fort Dix military base in New J
ersey. No attack was ever staged on the base, which is used largely to train US reservists bound for Iraq.

Macedonia is part of the international coalition in the fight against terrorism and it cannot be excluded from the responsibility to observe and respond to any possible activity or emerging of terrorists," Interior Ministry spokesman Ivo Kotevski told the AP. Moderate Muslims say the Wahhabi sect now controls five mosques in Skopje even though the Islamic Religious Community has suspended the man they claim is the sect's leader, Ramadan Ramadani, as imam of the Isa Beg mosque in Skopje, and prohibited hi
m from organizing prayers.
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Postby SF-Dano » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:54 am

Interesting read on 90's Eastern European events and US/NATO strategies at that time.

If interested

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article22513.html
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