Apple Now Most Valuable Company in History

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Apple Now Most Valuable Company in History

Postby JRNYMAN » Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:48 am

Analysts are now pondering whether the company (which, just 8 years ago, was valued at slightly over $15 Bil.) will reach $1 Trillion before the end of the decade. :shock: DAYUMM! I remember back in the 80's always hearing about this computer company called "Apple" and how every quarter they'd report a loss of hundreds of millions of dollars due to this factor and that issue.... and I always wondered how any company who consistently posts losses the size they did could possibly stay in business.

When it comes to people who had a vision and a plan to get there, Steve Jobs will forever be remembered as THE VISIONARY of business and industry. The article below which was published this morning is a very interesting read and contains some little-known factoids about that tiny, little computer company from Cupertino, CA who no-one thought would make it 5 years before they were completely broke.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/benzingains ... n-history/
8/21/2012 @ 8:35AM


Apple (NASDAQ: AAPL) became the most valuable company in history on Monday in terms of market capitalization. Heading into the final hour of trade, the stock had risen better than 2 percent, to give the company a market-cap of over $620 billion with shares trading over $662.00 apiece. The reason for the rise in the stock on Monday appears to be rumors surrounding the iPhone 5. There has also been increased buzz surrounding the iPad mini and the Wall Street Journal reported last week that the company has expanded its plans for a “set-top box.”

The previous record-holder in terms of aggregate market-cap was Microsoft (NASDAQ: MSFT) which hit its all-time high on December 30, 1999 at the height of the technology bubble. Apple’s achievement does not take into account inflation, however, and Microsoft was considerably more valuable on an inflation-adjusted basis in December 1999. In inflation-adjusted dollars, Microsoft’s market-cap reached a high of around $850 billion. The company now has a market-cap of about $257 billion.

Over the last 10 years, MSFT has risen around 23%, but the stock has been largely range-bound since falling from its all-time high. In terms of value, Apple’s market-cap would need to rise around another 37 percent to become the most valuable company ever, when adjusting for inflation. It could be instructive for investors to consider the trajectory of Microsoft, as it could end up being comparable to Apple.

The stock rose for years prior to hitting its high in December 1999. Microsoft then fell considerably, coinciding with the tech crash. What should be considered, however, is that the stock has subsequently not completely plunged and could conceivably make a run at those all-time highs once again.

The stock also offers a healthy dividend yield and has been a stable vehicle of capital preservation. Eventually, a similar outcome could be likely for Apple, although at what level the stock peaks is anyone’s guess. On a valuation basis, however, Apple still looks inexpensive. Despite its massive market-cap, the stock is still trading at a trailing P/E of under 16, and a forward P/E of under 13.

Given the company’s unbelievable innovation over the last few years, and the subsequent mountains of cash that it has earned as a result, the likely catalyst for the stock to eventually peak and decline will be Apple’s inability to continue to innovate at its current pace. Certainly, this is likely to happen at some point as the company confronts the burdens of stunning success in a relatively short period of time. In the current environment, however, Apple is showing few signs of slowing down and could very easily make a run at becoming the most valuable company in history in both absolute and inflation-adjusted terms.
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Postby Yoda » Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:36 am

The thing is, if it wasn't for Bill Gates/Microsoft helping Steve Jobs and Apple out on the software side, Apple probably wouldn't have made it. I remember watching an interview with Steve Jobs and Bill Gates on You Tube about this.
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Postby The Sushi Hunter » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:22 am

You're both wrong. According to noBOzos 2012: "They didn't build that. Someone else built that. Gates and Jobs think their smart. They aren't smart. Let me tell you, there are alot of smart people out there".
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Postby Yoda » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:13 am

The Sushi Hunter wrote:You're both wrong. According to noBOzos 2012: "They didn't build that. Someone else built that. Gates and Jobs think their smart. They aren't smart. Let me tell you, there are alot of smart people out there".


:lol: Well done!
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Postby Behshad » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:27 am

Yoda wrote:The thing is, if it wasn't for Bill Gates/Microsoft helping Steve Jobs and Apple out on the software side, Apple probably wouldn't have made it. I remember watching an interview with Steve Jobs and Bill Gates on You Tube about this.


Even tho the software part helped them staying alive, what helped the most was when Apple came with their own OS, followed by iPad,iTunes,iPhone,iPad and iOS. As smart as Bill Gates his, he never had Steve Jobs' vision. Jobs found ways to get people to invest more money in hardware than software. Every time Apple comes out with a new OS update for the mac, they charge $30-$50 for that upgrade , unlike MS who charges hundreds of dollars for theirs ;)

The question is how will Apple move on forwards without Jobs. Sure, they have the new iPhone coming out next month (which Jobs was involved in creating it), but no matter how much money they have, if they have lost their visionary leader, its just a matter of time before things start to go the other directions. iPhone and iOS in general need a fresh update before they fall too far behind the competition.

One thing is for sure, Saint John is dying to post in this thread but due to his vow of silence he just cant yet :lol: :twisted:
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Postby The Sushi Hunter » Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:24 am

Behshad wrote:One thing is for sure, Saint John is dying to post in this thread but due to his vow of silence he just cant yet :lol: :twisted:


He doesn't want to jinx it?

As for Apple, everybody and their mongoloid brother was waiting around for the new iphone 5 to come out but Apple dumped out the iphone 4S instead.

Interesting thing abut Apple products is that they never go on sale in Apple stores, ever.
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Postby JRNYMAN » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:18 am

Behshad wrote: As smart as Bill Gates his, he never had Steve Jobs' vision.
Not true..... at least early on. Microsoft officially became a company in 1982. I graduated in 1981 and up until that time, computer classes weren't anywhere close to being added to a school's curriculum so the thought of a "personal" computer hadn't even remotely considered that possibility - no one except for Gates who, is on record as stating that, (paraphrasing here...) "One day every house in America will have a computer....." Which eventually became, "A computer in every home." At the time of his statement, computers offered pretty much nothing of interest or value to the average work-a-day American. They were big, clunky, expensive, monochrome, noisy boxes that seemingly offered nothing to the average person that would enrich or ease anyone's daily life. Gates knew the possibilities long before the technology existed. He knew the right people were in place to create the types of things he envisioned but at the time of his "outside-the-box" thinking but anyone he shared his ideas with thought he was nuts and/or couldn't grasp the reasons why some of his ideas would even be needed let alone wanted. His 1996 best seller titled "The Road Ahead" is a very in-depth look at the vision he had for computers back in the 70's and how he got those grandiose ideas to come to exist as well as what he saw for the future of personal computing. One thing he states in his book as well as in interviews is," Anyone could have done what I've done. I just got there first." regarding what Windows 95 did for personal computing globally. That statement speaks volumes about just how much of a visionary he really was.
Unfortunately, he wanted Microsoft to be all things to all people in every facet of personal computing which allowed the company and the people who run it to lose focus of what was important and caused downward spiral that began in 1999. Their software became increasingly less stable due to the push for developers to get the product to market as quickly as possible disregarding "minor" bugs which would be remedied via a "patch" which the world would later come to know as a "service pack" and would eventually recognize it as being usual and customary with software. WRONG!! Prior to the technology boom, programs weren't released until they were exhaustively tested and made fail-safe. It was that the standard way of doing business. Releasing a program which was buggy would have disastrous affects on a company's reputation and credibility as well as their standing in the software development community. There was an unwritten rule which all the players adhered to with regard to software development and distribution which made for bullet-proof programs and applications. Tech support...? for a software product...??? Yeah, right! If you had to employ people just to help the end user with problems with a software application you created and released..... let's just say that possibility wasn't even a consideration early on due to the pride and professionalism that existed back then. My how things have changed. Windows NT eventually went on to see 6 service packs before it was replaced and buried.
Behshad wrote: Jobs found ways to get people to invest more money in hardware than software.
Absolutely true, which says a Hell of a lot about the quality of their software. It was so well written and so far superior to Windows even at the very core. Apple's "DOS" isn't written in some strange coded language. It's written in words and terms we use every day. And the stability of their software was/is rock solid and provides the very foundatuion on which some of the best and most incredible software runs. You can pick out a website created with a Mac instantly due to it's sheer aesthetics and speed at which it loads no matter how complex the page.

Behshad wrote: The question is how will Apple move on forwards without Jobs. Sure, they have the new iPhone coming out next month (which Jobs was involved in creating it), but no matter how much money they have, if they have lost their visionary leader, its just a matter of time before things start to go the other directions. iPhone and iOS in general need a fresh update before they fall too far behind the competition.
That is indeed the $642 bil. question. Being where the company is currently has never been done before. There are no track records to use as an example. To the average person it's unfathomable that a company in its position with a 62% market share of all the cell phones on the planet (....... let that sink in for a second..... SIXTY-TWO PERCENT!!!!! That means there are 2 entities who make the cell phones the world uses: 62% are made by Apple and the rest by everybody else!!!! :shock: :lol: :lol: Holysonofabitch! ) could ever be overtaken by snother company.
They say it's lonely at the top but I'd much prefer being there than even think of how gigantic a failure it will be if they should ever begin top self-destruct. A fall from grace on the order of what could possibly happen should they not be able to maintain their ability to be innovative and create the best, most desirable products will surely be a long and painful fall.

Sorry for the novel. :oops: :o I've been in this business since 1996 and have been fascinated and memorized by the events that have taken place in the tech world and have closely followed the paths the BIG tech companies have taken.

Behshad wrote: One thing is for sure, Saint John is dying to post in this thread but due to his vow of silence he just cant yet :lol: :twisted:
:lol: :lol:
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Postby The Sushi Hunter » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:35 am

When Job's died, I imagined how some of the execs would no longer feel a loyalty to the company, turning to corrruption by sellings Apple secrets to compeditors.

One thing for sure, cell phones took off like a rocket over the past 17 years. I still have my first one that I purchased in 95'. It was an AT&T and the first digital phone with texting capabilities. It cost me roughly $800 back then, no such thing as rollover minutes, it was just .72 per minute during peak hours and .22 per minute during non-peak hours (2100 to 0700). The screen was a green color, no ring tones, no music, no internet, no camera, no apps, etc. Plus even though I had text capabilities, I had no one I could text to because I didn't know anyone else at that time who was stupid enough to pay $800 for a cell phone back in 95'.
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Postby JRNYMAN » Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:47 am

The Sushi Hunter wrote:When Job's died, I imagined how some of the execs would no longer feel a loyalty to the company, turning to corrruption by sellings Apple secrets to compeditors.

One thing for sure, cell phones took off like a rocket over the past 17 years. I still have my first one that I purchased in 95'. It was an AT&T and the first digital phone with texting capabilities. It cost me roughly $800 back then, no such thing as rollover minutes, it was just .72 per minute during peak hours and .22 per minute during non-peak hours (2100 to 0700). The screen was a green color, no ring tones, no music, no internet, no camera, no apps, etc. Plus even though I had text capabilities, I had no one I could text to because I didn't know anyone else at that time who was stupid enough to pay $800 for a cell phone back in 95'.
:lol: :lol: I'm with ya. I had an AT&T cell too. It had one function and one function only: make and receive phone calls - some of the time.... when conditions were pristine and there wasn't ANYTHING to obstruct the signal like a leaf or a cloud.... :lol: :lol: For my text messages I still had to have a text capable pager. It was a BIG deal when I got one of the first programs that would send a message to your pager when you received new email. It couldn't send the contents of the email to your pager, just a msg. that you had gotten one. That was HUGE!!! :lol: I should have hung onto some of those cell bills back then. They were epic! :shock: :shock: AND.... one thing I remember about the state of wireless back then is the option in the phone's settings was whether you paid for the call or the caller paid. Seriously that was an option in the setup. And you had to stay on top of your minutes like a hawk. It was very easy to run your bill up into the hundreds very quickly. One particular month, I opened my bill and it was $1700!! My arm went numb and I started to hyperventilate. :shock: :lol: But, after examining my bill I realized I hadn't made any of the calls listed. I later found out my phone had been cloned by someone with close friends andrelatives in Brazil and Guatemala. :lol: :lol:
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Postby JRNYMAN » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:11 am

The Sushi Hunter wrote:One thing for sure, cell phones took off like a rocket over the past 17 years.

Just in the past 18 months, the cell phone market has crippled and nearly bankrupt several companies who bet on laptop sales being as strong as they were for the foreseeable future. In a desperate move to resurrect dismal sales, HP, Dell, Toshiba, Fujitsu, and the other big players in the notebook sector began slashing the prices of even their already low-end products to unload huge inventories the companies had stockpiled counting on that once highly lucrative market to continue far longer than it did. As a personal example, last week I bought a Dell laptop for my daughter.
Dell Inspiron 15.6" with super-bright LED backlighting
iNTEL Core i5 quad-core processor
8 GB RAM
750 GB Hare drive
Webcam
Backlit keyboard
Blu-Ray player/DVD writer/re-writer
Bluetooth and on and on.....
I paid $299.00 after the $50.00 rebate. No, it's not a refurb, open box, clearance, discontinued, etc. It's a current build item which was on sale at WalMart. Personally, I couldn't believe I was able to find one in-stock due to the fact that I hadn't seen the ad until 5 days after it had come out. I was sure they would all be gone quickly. But, there are so many notebooks available at rock bottom prices that the one I bought didn't stand out that much amongst the others that are just as drastically reduced. It's nuts!

And yeah, you can certainly do tons of things on today's cutting edge smartphones that you would have done on your laptop or desktop but for me personally, I don't want to watch Breaking Bad while standing in line at the bank on a 4.5" screen that I have to hold in my hand. I don't want to reply to posts on MR using a keyboard not conducive to my sausage fingers while having to scroll side to side to be able to read those posts due to the necessity of having the font be set at roughly 22 because of my eyesight. I want to watch the shows I download on a nice bright, wide screen in a room where I can kick back on a leather couch that feels like I'm laying in the hands of angels and listen to the audio through my huge, vintage Fisher speakers that are literally pieces of furniture themselves, complete with 15" woofers and a horn and tweeters all in the same cabinet - no sub-woofer needed thank you! 8) :lol:
Now, if you're in the market for an Apple notebook..... that's another story altogether!! :shock:
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Postby The Sushi Hunter » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:26 am

Sounds like you got quite a great deal on that laptop.

Every time I watch Star Trek I think of who the first real visionary of the personal and portable cell phone concept was.

I wouldn't do anything on a smartphone though since I don't trust that the phone carriers or companies won't steal information that you enter into it. I don't even do personal works on a computer that I have plugged into the internet. That's why I have more then one computer at home, one is for internet connection while the other is never hooked up to the internet and where I do all of my personal work.
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Postby Yoda » Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:59 am

Yeah, I think both Steve Jobs AND Bill Gates had/have vision, they just use/used it in a different way or it comes to them differently. Gates is more straight forward with his vision. Jobs was a little more, "I dunno....it will come to me down the road".

As what Jrnyman said, Gates' biggest vision was getting the PC out to every household. Certainly this meant computers being within a certain cost. And to do this, having to rely on third party manufacturers for the computer parts - providing competition with that. By doing that, I believe it also became a bit more difficult for Windows to be as stable of an OS, since so many hardware manufacturers were trying to work with Microsoft to make sure their parts worked. Apple, on the other hand, was strictly propitiatory hardware. No going to Office Max to buy memory, another video card, hard drive, etc...processors, motherboards, etc...all different than what PCs used.

So, that's part of, IMHO, why Apple's OS has been as "stable" as it has been. Plus, it's based on a completely different kernel (Unix) than Windows. But besides that, when you're working with the same hardware manufacturers - all, sort of, "in house" so to speak, there are no surprises. You can take as long as you want to make sure the system works beyond any doubt - and the programs being written specifically for mac is the same. But, this probably meant a lot more overhead - so that cost is passed onto the end user. Even though Apple has opened its eyes up to Intel processors - it's vision is still based on just a certain group of individuals and not to everybody. I say that because, not everybody can afford $2000 - $8000 for a Machintosh computer.

Now, I think things will slowly change. In the next decade, I think Apple computers will give into letting all of these hardware companies in on the party, forcing the competition and lowing the prices on computers. For one, people have started to figure out how to build their own "Hackintosh" computers for a fraction of the cost it takes to actually purchasing the computer from Apple. And, I think eventually this is going to lead to some OS issues that Windows has been dealing with since the 2000's (I still think Windows 98 is the most stable, solid OS Windows has ever came out with.) I don't think this would have ever been the vision of Steve Jobs, but now that he's gone, I believe the company will head in this direction. Which can be good and bad for Apple. At least maybe, more and more businesses will start using Apple computers as much as Windows PCs. Who's knows? I appreciate the good points of both Microsoft Windows and Apple's OSX. But, I despise the bad points of both about as equally.
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Postby JRNYMAN » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:31 am

Yoda wrote:Yeah, I think both Steve Jobs AND Bill Gates had/have vision, they just use/used it in a different way or it comes to them differently. Gates is more straight forward with his vision. Jobs was a little more, "I dunno....it will come to me down the road".

As what Jrnyman said, Gates' biggest vision was getting the PC out to every household. Certainly this meant computers being within a certain cost. And to do this, having to rely on third party manufacturers for the computer parts - providing competition with that. By doing that, I believe it also became a bit more difficult for Windows to be as stable of an OS, since so many hardware manufacturers were trying to work with Microsoft to make sure their parts worked. Apple, on the other hand, was strictly propitiatory hardware. No going to Office Max to buy memory, another video card, hard drive, etc...processors, motherboards, etc...all different than what PCs used.

So, that's part of, IMHO, why Apple's OS has been as "stable" as it has been. Plus, it's based on a completely different kernel (Unix) than Windows. But besides that, when you're working with the same hardware manufacturers - all, sort of, "in house" so to speak, there are no surprises. You can take as long as you want to make sure the system works beyond any doubt - and the programs being written specifically for mac is the same. But, this probably meant a lot more overhead - so that cost is passed onto the end user. Even though Apple has opened its eyes up to Intel processors - it's vision is still based on just a certain group of individuals and not to everybody. I say that because, not everybody can afford $2000 - $8000 for a Machintosh computer.

Now, I think things will slowly change. In the next decade, I think Apple computers will give into letting all of these hardware companies in on the party, forcing the competition and lowing the prices on computers. For one, people have started to figure out how to build their own "Hackintosh" computers for a fraction of the cost it takes to actually purchasing the computer from Apple. And, I think eventually this is going to lead to some OS issues that Windows has been dealing with since the 2000's (I still think Windows 98 is the most stable, solid OS Windows has ever came out with.) I don't think this would have ever been the vision of Steve Jobs, but now that he's gone, I believe the company will head in this direction. Which can be good and bad for Apple. At least maybe, more and more businesses will start using Apple computers as much as Windows PCs. Who's knows? I appreciate the good points of both Microsoft Windows and Apple's OSX. But, I despise the bad points of both about as equally.
Good points. I'm not sure I agree completely with the path you envision for the personal computer no matter the platform: Mac or PC. I think tablet and handheld devices that interact with other devices will be the platform the masses will cling to due to their portability, convenience, and accessibility. The personal computer will always have its place in both the home and the workplace but those will see far less focus than they have been given over the past decade. Heck, just look at the example I cited above about the decline of notebooks which were all the rage and couldn't be produced fast enough just a couple of years ago!

And as far as Microsoft's most stable OS for the longest period of time..... arguably the winner of that award is Windows NT but it was designed for and utilized by businesses. Granted there were lots of service packs released for it but those were more to increase functionality and compatibility with new products as they entered the market than they were specifically targeted toward fixes. On the consumer side, hands down the best version of Windows was XP. It had the longest lifespan of any other version of Windows. Support for it was extended 3 different times. Users who upgraded to Windows Vomit.... er I mean Vista who realized what a pig it was were offered refunds and assistance returning their systems to XP, and at the height of its life, XP was installed on more computers globally than any other OS prior and still is. Now, that's not to say it was preferred by more people than any other OS. Personally, give me an AMD 486-DX100 overclocked to 150 running DOS 6.22 and I'll tear it up!! :lol: :lol: Seriously though, I'm a huge fan of Win 7 Ultimate. I beta tested 7 and got to witness its progression from birth to what was ultimately released and I've got to say, they had this one nailed right from the start. very few changes were made to it along the beta path and as far as I can tell, it's bullet-proof stable - so far. I do a lot of tweaking and pushing the envelope when it comes to stability and I also work on computers for a living and I've seen calls for software related repairs decline dramatically as Win 7 has made its way into the market. If you haven't unlocked God Mode in Win 7 yet, you haven't truly experienced Windows 7 and all its power and glory! Amen. :lol: :lol:
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Postby Yoda » Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:54 am

JRNYMAN wrote:
Yoda wrote:Yeah, I think both Steve Jobs AND Bill Gates had/have vision, they just use/used it in a different way or it comes to them differently. Gates is more straight forward with his vision. Jobs was a little more, "I dunno....it will come to me down the road".

As what Jrnyman said, Gates' biggest vision was getting the PC out to every household. Certainly this meant computers being within a certain cost. And to do this, having to rely on third party manufacturers for the computer parts - providing competition with that. By doing that, I believe it also became a bit more difficult for Windows to be as stable of an OS, since so many hardware manufacturers were trying to work with Microsoft to make sure their parts worked. Apple, on the other hand, was strictly propitiatory hardware. No going to Office Max to buy memory, another video card, hard drive, etc...processors, motherboards, etc...all different than what PCs used.

So, that's part of, IMHO, why Apple's OS has been as "stable" as it has been. Plus, it's based on a completely different kernel (Unix) than Windows. But besides that, when you're working with the same hardware manufacturers - all, sort of, "in house" so to speak, there are no surprises. You can take as long as you want to make sure the system works beyond any doubt - and the programs being written specifically for mac is the same. But, this probably meant a lot more overhead - so that cost is passed onto the end user. Even though Apple has opened its eyes up to Intel processors - it's vision is still based on just a certain group of individuals and not to everybody. I say that because, not everybody can afford $2000 - $8000 for a Machintosh computer.

Now, I think things will slowly change. In the next decade, I think Apple computers will give into letting all of these hardware companies in on the party, forcing the competition and lowing the prices on computers. For one, people have started to figure out how to build their own "Hackintosh" computers for a fraction of the cost it takes to actually purchasing the computer from Apple. And, I think eventually this is going to lead to some OS issues that Windows has been dealing with since the 2000's (I still think Windows 98 is the most stable, solid OS Windows has ever came out with.) I don't think this would have ever been the vision of Steve Jobs, but now that he's gone, I believe the company will head in this direction. Which can be good and bad for Apple. At least maybe, more and more businesses will start using Apple computers as much as Windows PCs. Who's knows? I appreciate the good points of both Microsoft Windows and Apple's OSX. But, I despise the bad points of both about as equally.
Good points. I'm not sure I agree completely with the path you envision for the personal computer no matter the platform: Mac or PC. I think tablet and handheld devices that interact with other devices will be the platform the masses will cling to due to their portability, convenience, and accessibility. The personal computer will always have its place in both the home and the workplace but those will see far less focus than they have been given over the past decade. Heck, just look at the example I cited above about the decline of notebooks which were all the rage and couldn't be produced fast enough just a couple of years ago!

And as far as Microsoft's most stable OS for the longest period of time..... arguably the winner of that award is Windows NT but it was designed for and utilized by businesses. Granted there were lots of service packs released for it but those were more to increase functionality and compatibility with new products as they entered the market than they were specifically targeted toward fixes. On the consumer side, hands down the best version of Windows was XP. It had the longest lifespan of any other version of Windows. Support for it was extended 3 different times. Users who upgraded to Windows Vomit.... er I mean Vista who realized what a pig it was were offered refunds and assistance returning their systems to XP, and at the height of its life, XP was installed on more computers globally than any other OS prior and still is. Now, that's not to say it was preferred by more people than any other OS. Personally, give me an AMD 486-DX100 overclocked to 150 running DOS 6.22 and I'll tear it up!! :lol: :lol: Seriously though, I'm a huge fan of Win 7 Ultimate. I beta tested 7 and got to witness its progression from birth to what was ultimately released and I've got to say, they had this one nailed right from the start. very few changes were made to it along the beta path and as far as I can tell, it's bullet-proof stable - so far. I do a lot of tweaking and pushing the envelope when it comes to stability and I also work on computers for a living and I've seen calls for software related repairs decline dramatically as Win 7 has made its way into the market. If you haven't unlocked God Mode in Win 7 yet, you haven't truly experienced Windows 7 and all its power and glory! Amen. :lol: :lol:


I haven't tried God Mode yet. My co-worker has it on his computer. Yeah, I agree about the tablets. I think tablets are quickly becoming the new "laptop" computers - especially since the new OS are being geared toward touch screen, google apps, etc..it's sort of something we discussed in a computer theory class I took in college back in 2005. We discussed the idea of computer labs becoming a place where you just bring in your portable device and plugging in....instead of the lab providing the computer. The labs would have the monitors and input devices...only thing back then we were talking about was, how safe would your network be with all of these foreign devices being on the network? But, that's sort of what were getting to with the tablets - although you'll still need desktops/laptops for office use such as programming, saving files, etc...my home desktop is used more as an entertainment server than anything else. I'm on a computer all day, so the only thing I want to do when I come home is watch Netflix....LOL!
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Postby JRNYMAN » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:11 am

Yoda wrote:
JRNYMAN wrote:
Yoda wrote:Yeah, I think both Steve Jobs AND Bill Gates had/have vision, they just use/used it in a different way or it comes to them differently. Gates is more straight forward with his vision. Jobs was a little more, "I dunno....it will come to me down the road".

As what Jrnyman said, Gates' biggest vision was getting the PC out to every household. Certainly this meant computers being within a certain cost. And to do this, having to rely on third party manufacturers for the computer parts - providing competition with that. By doing that, I believe it also became a bit more difficult for Windows to be as stable of an OS, since so many hardware manufacturers were trying to work with Microsoft to make sure their parts worked. Apple, on the other hand, was strictly propitiatory hardware. No going to Office Max to buy memory, another video card, hard drive, etc...processors, motherboards, etc...all different than what PCs used.

So, that's part of, IMHO, why Apple's OS has been as "stable" as it has been. Plus, it's based on a completely different kernel (Unix) than Windows. But besides that, when you're working with the same hardware manufacturers - all, sort of, "in house" so to speak, there are no surprises. You can take as long as you want to make sure the system works beyond any doubt - and the programs being written specifically for mac is the same. But, this probably meant a lot more overhead - so that cost is passed onto the end user. Even though Apple has opened its eyes up to Intel processors - it's vision is still based on just a certain group of individuals and not to everybody. I say that because, not everybody can afford $2000 - $8000 for a Machintosh computer.

Now, I think things will slowly change. In the next decade, I think Apple computers will give into letting all of these hardware companies in on the party, forcing the competition and lowing the prices on computers. For one, people have started to figure out how to build their own "Hackintosh" computers for a fraction of the cost it takes to actually purchasing the computer from Apple. And, I think eventually this is going to lead to some OS issues that Windows has been dealing with since the 2000's (I still think Windows 98 is the most stable, solid OS Windows has ever came out with.) I don't think this would have ever been the vision of Steve Jobs, but now that he's gone, I believe the company will head in this direction. Which can be good and bad for Apple. At least maybe, more and more businesses will start using Apple computers as much as Windows PCs. Who's knows? I appreciate the good points of both Microsoft Windows and Apple's OSX. But, I despise the bad points of both about as equally.
Good points. I'm not sure I agree completely with the path you envision for the personal computer no matter the platform: Mac or PC. I think tablet and handheld devices that interact with other devices will be the platform the masses will cling to due to their portability, convenience, and accessibility. The personal computer will always have its place in both the home and the workplace but those will see far less focus than they have been given over the past decade. Heck, just look at the example I cited above about the decline of notebooks which were all the rage and couldn't be produced fast enough just a couple of years ago!

And as far as Microsoft's most stable OS for the longest period of time..... arguably the winner of that award is Windows NT but it was designed for and utilized by businesses. Granted there were lots of service packs released for it but those were more to increase functionality and compatibility with new products as they entered the market than they were specifically targeted toward fixes. On the consumer side, hands down the best version of Windows was XP. It had the longest lifespan of any other version of Windows. Support for it was extended 3 different times. Users who upgraded to Windows Vomit.... er I mean Vista who realized what a pig it was were offered refunds and assistance returning their systems to XP, and at the height of its life, XP was installed on more computers globally than any other OS prior and still is. Now, that's not to say it was preferred by more people than any other OS. Personally, give me an AMD 486-DX100 overclocked to 150 running DOS 6.22 and I'll tear it up!! :lol: :lol: Seriously though, I'm a huge fan of Win 7 Ultimate. I beta tested 7 and got to witness its progression from birth to what was ultimately released and I've got to say, they had this one nailed right from the start. very few changes were made to it along the beta path and as far as I can tell, it's bullet-proof stable - so far. I do a lot of tweaking and pushing the envelope when it comes to stability and I also work on computers for a living and I've seen calls for software related repairs decline dramatically as Win 7 has made its way into the market. If you haven't unlocked God Mode in Win 7 yet, you haven't truly experienced Windows 7 and all its power and glory! Amen. :lol: :lol:


I haven't tried God Mode yet. My co-worker has it on his computer. Yeah, I agree about the tablets. I think tablets are quickly becoming the new "laptop" computers - especially since the new OS are being geared toward touch screen, google apps, etc..it's sort of something we discussed in a computer theory class I took in college back in 2005. We discussed the idea of computer labs becoming a place where you just bring in your portable device and plugging in....instead of the lab providing the computer. The labs would have the monitors and input devices...only thing back then we were talking about was, how safe would your network be with all of these foreign devices being on the network? But, that's sort of what were getting to with the tablets - although you'll still need desktops/laptops for office use such as programming, saving files, etc...my home desktop is used more as an entertainment server than anything else. I'm on a computer all day, so the only thing I want to do when I come home is watch Netflix....LOL!

Software developers are the heart and soul (and ultimately the success of demise) of a company. They are charged with creating and writing programs which will enable the masses to do what they want with their devices - even if they don't know they want it yet. This shift toward handheld devices started with the developers collectively asking, "What if...?" From those think tanks come the ideas that will shape the future of computing and how and on what we do it with. Regarding how secure a network will be with all the various devices accessing it..... as secure as you make it. The list and kinds of devices connected to the Internet or and/or devices which are network connected has become huge. You'd be amazed at the devices you can connect to a network. Search Google for network connected devices. You'd never imagine some of the things listed there.
Case in point: A couple of years ago we had the Sears repair guy out to look at our fridge. We got to talking about computing and he told me about what was just around the corner for appliances and connectivity. Within just a couple of years or less, all appliances will be able to be connected to the Internet via a home network. Why? Because it's going to save Sears over half a billion dollars in repeat service calls. When there's a problem with the unit, a service tech will be able to connect to it and find out exactly what is needed to repair it. And, it's already happening. Just a couple of weeks ago I was checking out fridges at Home Depot and listed in the features of this one particular fridge was "Network capable...."
Yeah, my home computer.... well, the one I use exclusively out of the 6 in my house/garage (sheesh, do I really need all those computers still hooked up? :roll: :lol: ) sees more time downloading the current night's TV lineup via torrent files than anything else - well, that and hanging out here. :wink: :lol: :lol: [/u]
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Postby The Sushi Hunter » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:20 am

Seriously kitchen appliances connected to the internet? Yeah, are they also going to have a webcam connected to them so they can see what people are eating and cooking? Plus how can you really tell if there is even anything really wrong with your appliances besides some dickhead knocking on your door from the company telling you that they have monitored your appliance and that there is something that they need to replace on it and that will cost you "x" amount of money, even though you don't have any issues with the appliance in question. What about a virus send via internet that turns on your stove when your gone and burns down your house, or turns off the refridgerator while your away and spoils all the food. Yeah appliances connected to the internet would be about as popular is the beta machines were, ok at first but popluarity died out fast.
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Postby JRNYMAN » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:48 am

The Sushi Hunter wrote:Seriously kitchen appliances connected to the internet? Yeah, are they also going to have a webcam connected to them so they can see what people are eating and cooking? Plus how can you really tell if there is even anything really wrong with your appliances besides some dickhead knocking on your door from the company telling you that they have monitored your appliance and that there is something that they need to replace on it and that will cost you "x" amount of money, even though you don't have any issues with the appliance in question. What about a virus send via internet that turns on your stove when your gone and burns down your house, or turns off the refridgerator while your away and spoils all the food. Yeah appliances connected to the internet would be about as popular is the beta machines were, ok at first but popluarity died out fast.
Your paranoia is preventing you from seeing the real picture here - but I don't mean that in a bad way. :lol: :lol: The appliance connectivity will be only when you enable it. And if there wasn't a problem with your unit, you wouldn't be calling sears repair in the first place. HEre's the process:
1. Problem detected with your unit - by you.
2. You call Sears and tell them you have a problem. \
3. They ask the make and model of the unit and upon discovering it's network capable, they ask you to allow it to connect to run diagnostics remotely.
4. Diagnostics are run revealing the precise problem.
5. Service call is scheduled with the correct part(s) on board.
6. Disconnect unit from network.

As for virii that will enable the connected devices to burn down your house...... Umm..... yeah, I don't see that becoming a trend per se.....
I think the point you;re missing is the fact that you will ultimately have to allow the devices to be connected and communicate. And, if you eliminate all the sinister thoughts and suspicions and conspiracy theories that your paranoid mind conjures up and actually see the technology for what it has the ability to do for both the consumer and the mfr., it's a good thing. And as for it not catching on, ALL of the major mfrs. of appliances are already on board with the new standard and the standards and compliances guide has already been written. This is a big deal and expected to revolutionize the appliance market. As soon as all the players and factors are in line, it will be presented to the masses with a huge advertising campaign.
And I only used appliances as an example. There are literally hundreds of products that are transitioning as we speak to connected status for their products. Google "connected devices" and be prepared to be wowed by what you discover.
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Postby The Sushi Hunter » Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:12 am

True, but also remember that google and iphone companies used to say that their devices don't track your movements or that they can access your information from these personal devices. And then after it was proven that they were not truthful, the companies then did come back and say "oh yeah, we can do all those things that we told you we couldn't/wouldn't do". If they were on the up and up from the start they would have said yeah we track users and have access to what they put on those personal devices. But the fact remains, they didn't and for no other reason but because they didn't want users of their devices to know. Plain and simple.
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Postby Yoda » Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:29 am

JRNYMAN wrote:
Yoda wrote:
JRNYMAN wrote:
Yoda wrote:Yeah, I think both Steve Jobs AND Bill Gates had/have vision, they just use/used it in a different way or it comes to them differently. Gates is more straight forward with his vision. Jobs was a little more, "I dunno....it will come to me down the road".

As what Jrnyman said, Gates' biggest vision was getting the PC out to every household. Certainly this meant computers being within a certain cost. And to do this, having to rely on third party manufacturers for the computer parts - providing competition with that. By doing that, I believe it also became a bit more difficult for Windows to be as stable of an OS, since so many hardware manufacturers were trying to work with Microsoft to make sure their parts worked. Apple, on the other hand, was strictly propitiatory hardware. No going to Office Max to buy memory, another video card, hard drive, etc...processors, motherboards, etc...all different than what PCs used.

So, that's part of, IMHO, why Apple's OS has been as "stable" as it has been. Plus, it's based on a completely different kernel (Unix) than Windows. But besides that, when you're working with the same hardware manufacturers - all, sort of, "in house" so to speak, there are no surprises. You can take as long as you want to make sure the system works beyond any doubt - and the programs being written specifically for mac is the same. But, this probably meant a lot more overhead - so that cost is passed onto the end user. Even though Apple has opened its eyes up to Intel processors - it's vision is still based on just a certain group of individuals and not to everybody. I say that because, not everybody can afford $2000 - $8000 for a Machintosh computer.

Now, I think things will slowly change. In the next decade, I think Apple computers will give into letting all of these hardware companies in on the party, forcing the competition and lowing the prices on computers. For one, people have started to figure out how to build their own "Hackintosh" computers for a fraction of the cost it takes to actually purchasing the computer from Apple. And, I think eventually this is going to lead to some OS issues that Windows has been dealing with since the 2000's (I still think Windows 98 is the most stable, solid OS Windows has ever came out with.) I don't think this would have ever been the vision of Steve Jobs, but now that he's gone, I believe the company will head in this direction. Which can be good and bad for Apple. At least maybe, more and more businesses will start using Apple computers as much as Windows PCs. Who's knows? I appreciate the good points of both Microsoft Windows and Apple's OSX. But, I despise the bad points of both about as equally.
Good points. I'm not sure I agree completely with the path you envision for the personal computer no matter the platform: Mac or PC. I think tablet and handheld devices that interact with other devices will be the platform the masses will cling to due to their portability, convenience, and accessibility. The personal computer will always have its place in both the home and the workplace but those will see far less focus than they have been given over the past decade. Heck, just look at the example I cited above about the decline of notebooks which were all the rage and couldn't be produced fast enough just a couple of years ago!

And as far as Microsoft's most stable OS for the longest period of time..... arguably the winner of that award is Windows NT but it was designed for and utilized by businesses. Granted there were lots of service packs released for it but those were more to increase functionality and compatibility with new products as they entered the market than they were specifically targeted toward fixes. On the consumer side, hands down the best version of Windows was XP. It had the longest lifespan of any other version of Windows. Support for it was extended 3 different times. Users who upgraded to Windows Vomit.... er I mean Vista who realized what a pig it was were offered refunds and assistance returning their systems to XP, and at the height of its life, XP was installed on more computers globally than any other OS prior and still is. Now, that's not to say it was preferred by more people than any other OS. Personally, give me an AMD 486-DX100 overclocked to 150 running DOS 6.22 and I'll tear it up!! :lol: :lol: Seriously though, I'm a huge fan of Win 7 Ultimate. I beta tested 7 and got to witness its progression from birth to what was ultimately released and I've got to say, they had this one nailed right from the start. very few changes were made to it along the beta path and as far as I can tell, it's bullet-proof stable - so far. I do a lot of tweaking and pushing the envelope when it comes to stability and I also work on computers for a living and I've seen calls for software related repairs decline dramatically as Win 7 has made its way into the market. If you haven't unlocked God Mode in Win 7 yet, you haven't truly experienced Windows 7 and all its power and glory! Amen. :lol: :lol:


I haven't tried God Mode yet. My co-worker has it on his computer. Yeah, I agree about the tablets. I think tablets are quickly becoming the new "laptop" computers - especially since the new OS are being geared toward touch screen, google apps, etc..it's sort of something we discussed in a computer theory class I took in college back in 2005. We discussed the idea of computer labs becoming a place where you just bring in your portable device and plugging in....instead of the lab providing the computer. The labs would have the monitors and input devices...only thing back then we were talking about was, how safe would your network be with all of these foreign devices being on the network? But, that's sort of what were getting to with the tablets - although you'll still need desktops/laptops for office use such as programming, saving files, etc...my home desktop is used more as an entertainment server than anything else. I'm on a computer all day, so the only thing I want to do when I come home is watch Netflix....LOL!

Software developers are the heart and soul (and ultimately the success of demise) of a company. They are charged with creating and writing programs which will enable the masses to do what they want with their devices - even if they don't know they want it yet. This shift toward handheld devices started with the developers collectively asking, "What if...?" From those think tanks come the ideas that will shape the future of computing and how and on what we do it with. Regarding how secure a network will be with all the various devices accessing it..... as secure as you make it. The list and kinds of devices connected to the Internet or and/or devices which are network connected has become huge. You'd be amazed at the devices you can connect to a network. Search Google for network connected devices. You'd never imagine some of the things listed there.
Case in point: A couple of years ago we had the Sears repair guy out to look at our fridge. We got to talking about computing and he told me about what was just around the corner for appliances and connectivity. Within just a couple of years or less, all appliances will be able to be connected to the Internet via a home network. Why? Because it's going to save Sears over half a billion dollars in repeat service calls. When there's a problem with the unit, a service tech will be able to connect to it and find out exactly what is needed to repair it. And, it's already happening. Just a couple of weeks ago I was checking out fridges at Home Depot and listed in the features of this one particular fridge was "Network capable...."
Yeah, my home computer.... well, the one I use exclusively out of the 6 in my house/garage (sheesh, do I really need all those computers still hooked up? :roll: :lol: ) sees more time downloading the current night's TV lineup via torrent files than anything else - well, that and hanging out here. :wink: :lol: :lol: [/u]


The very thing you have just posted about Sears and their online appliances is yet another discussion we had in our class. Who would have ever thought that all the ideas we were kicking around in that class have either came true or are in the process of being reality! Then we got on the subject of limitations to having all of these devices online, such as the threat of running out of IP addresses to assign to these devices, but then after that my mind and eyes started drifting toward the blonde with the low cut top that was sitting across from me in class! :lol: No wonder I suck at computer programming...LOL!!!
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Postby JRNYMAN » Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:18 am

Yoda wrote:
JRNYMAN wrote:
Yoda wrote:
JRNYMAN wrote:
Yoda wrote:Yeah, I think both Steve Jobs AND Bill Gates had/have vision, they just use/used it in a different way or it comes to them differently. Gates is more straight forward with his vision. Jobs was a little more, "I dunno....it will come to me down the road".

As what Jrnyman said, Gates' biggest vision was getting the PC out to every household. Certainly this meant computers being within a certain cost. And to do this, having to rely on third party manufacturers for the computer parts - providing competition with that. By doing that, I believe it also became a bit more difficult for Windows to be as stable of an OS, since so many hardware manufacturers were trying to work with Microsoft to make sure their parts worked. Apple, on the other hand, was strictly propitiatory hardware. No going to Office Max to buy memory, another video card, hard drive, etc...processors, motherboards, etc...all different than what PCs used.

So, that's part of, IMHO, why Apple's OS has been as "stable" as it has been. Plus, it's based on a completely different kernel (Unix) than Windows. But besides that, when you're working with the same hardware manufacturers - all, sort of, "in house" so to speak, there are no surprises. You can take as long as you want to make sure the system works beyond any doubt - and the programs being written specifically for mac is the same. But, this probably meant a lot more overhead - so that cost is passed onto the end user. Even though Apple has opened its eyes up to Intel processors - it's vision is still based on just a certain group of individuals and not to everybody. I say that because, not everybody can afford $2000 - $8000 for a Machintosh computer.

Now, I think things will slowly change. In the next decade, I think Apple computers will give into letting all of these hardware companies in on the party, forcing the competition and lowing the prices on computers. For one, people have started to figure out how to build their own "Hackintosh" computers for a fraction of the cost it takes to actually purchasing the computer from Apple. And, I think eventually this is going to lead to some OS issues that Windows has been dealing with since the 2000's (I still think Windows 98 is the most stable, solid OS Windows has ever came out with.) I don't think this would have ever been the vision of Steve Jobs, but now that he's gone, I believe the company will head in this direction. Which can be good and bad for Apple. At least maybe, more and more businesses will start using Apple computers as much as Windows PCs. Who's knows? I appreciate the good points of both Microsoft Windows and Apple's OSX. But, I despise the bad points of both about as equally.
Good points. I'm not sure I agree completely with the path you envision for the personal computer no matter the platform: Mac or PC. I think tablet and handheld devices that interact with other devices will be the platform the masses will cling to due to their portability, convenience, and accessibility. The personal computer will always have its place in both the home and the workplace but those will see far less focus than they have been given over the past decade. Heck, just look at the example I cited above about the decline of notebooks which were all the rage and couldn't be produced fast enough just a couple of years ago!

And as far as Microsoft's most stable OS for the longest period of time..... arguably the winner of that award is Windows NT but it was designed for and utilized by businesses. Granted there were lots of service packs released for it but those were more to increase functionality and compatibility with new products as they entered the market than they were specifically targeted toward fixes. On the consumer side, hands down the best version of Windows was XP. It had the longest lifespan of any other version of Windows. Support for it was extended 3 different times. Users who upgraded to Windows Vomit.... er I mean Vista who realized what a pig it was were offered refunds and assistance returning their systems to XP, and at the height of its life, XP was installed on more computers globally than any other OS prior and still is. Now, that's not to say it was preferred by more people than any other OS. Personally, give me an AMD 486-DX100 overclocked to 150 running DOS 6.22 and I'll tear it up!! :lol: :lol: Seriously though, I'm a huge fan of Win 7 Ultimate. I beta tested 7 and got to witness its progression from birth to what was ultimately released and I've got to say, they had this one nailed right from the start. very few changes were made to it along the beta path and as far as I can tell, it's bullet-proof stable - so far. I do a lot of tweaking and pushing the envelope when it comes to stability and I also work on computers for a living and I've seen calls for software related repairs decline dramatically as Win 7 has made its way into the market. If you haven't unlocked God Mode in Win 7 yet, you haven't truly experienced Windows 7 and all its power and glory! Amen. :lol: :lol:


I haven't tried God Mode yet. My co-worker has it on his computer. Yeah, I agree about the tablets. I think tablets are quickly becoming the new "laptop" computers - especially since the new OS are being geared toward touch screen, google apps, etc..it's sort of something we discussed in a computer theory class I took in college back in 2005. We discussed the idea of computer labs becoming a place where you just bring in your portable device and plugging in....instead of the lab providing the computer. The labs would have the monitors and input devices...only thing back then we were talking about was, how safe would your network be with all of these foreign devices being on the network? But, that's sort of what were getting to with the tablets - although you'll still need desktops/laptops for office use such as programming, saving files, etc...my home desktop is used more as an entertainment server than anything else. I'm on a computer all day, so the only thing I want to do when I come home is watch Netflix....LOL!

Software developers are the heart and soul (and ultimately the success of demise) of a company. They are charged with creating and writing programs which will enable the masses to do what they want with their devices - even if they don't know they want it yet. This shift toward handheld devices started with the developers collectively asking, "What if...?" From those think tanks come the ideas that will shape the future of computing and how and on what we do it with. Regarding how secure a network will be with all the various devices accessing it..... as secure as you make it. The list and kinds of devices connected to the Internet or and/or devices which are network connected has become huge. You'd be amazed at the devices you can connect to a network. Search Google for network connected devices. You'd never imagine some of the things listed there.
Case in point: A couple of years ago we had the Sears repair guy out to look at our fridge. We got to talking about computing and he told me about what was just around the corner for appliances and connectivity. Within just a couple of years or less, all appliances will be able to be connected to the Internet via a home network. Why? Because it's going to save Sears over half a billion dollars in repeat service calls. When there's a problem with the unit, a service tech will be able to connect to it and find out exactly what is needed to repair it. And, it's already happening. Just a couple of weeks ago I was checking out fridges at Home Depot and listed in the features of this one particular fridge was "Network capable...."
Yeah, my home computer.... well, the one I use exclusively out of the 6 in my house/garage (sheesh, do I really need all those computers still hooked up? :roll: :lol: ) sees more time downloading the current night's TV lineup via torrent files than anything else - well, that and hanging out here. :wink: :lol: :lol: [/u]


The very thing you have just posted about Sears and their online appliances is yet another discussion we had in our class. Who would have ever thought that all the ideas we were kicking around in that class have either came true or are in the process of being reality! Then we got on the subject of limitations to having all of these devices online, such as the threat of running out of IP addresses to assign to these devices, but then after that my mind and eyes started drifting toward the blonde with the low cut top that was sitting across from me in class! :lol: No wonder I suck at computer programming...LOL!!!
:lol: :lol: :lol: Oh great..... Promise us you won't go into computer programming for the military! That's all we need is someone programming missles who didn't pay close attention in class and one launched at Tehran or Baghdad "accidentally" wipes out Omaha instead! Oops.... :oops: :lol: :lol:
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