OFFICIAL DC Studios; "DCU" THREAD

[Monker]

I have NEVER heard of the miniseries being called "That Showtime series". It is called Frank Herbert's Dune. Dune 2000. The Dune miniseries. SciFi' channel's Dune....

Good gravy. You're one anal mofo when it comes to your Sci-Fi/SyFy fetishism.

Again, calling it a "Showtime series" just shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. Saying that Showtime and the SciFi network were affiliated at that time shows you do not know what you are talking about. You are speaking outside of your wheelhouse, I'm not. When this stuff goes over your head, you try and catch it but miss.

No, you prove it. BSG was way more popular and deservedly so.

Ok.

From Amazon, the description of the Dune/Children of Dune combo Blu-Ray:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09LY4GF6P/re ... TYNRXW6BWG

All Regions. This comprehensive collection of Frank Herbert's “Dune Chronicles” begins with the landmark science fiction epic Dune, a stunningly realized four-and-a-half hour miniseries produced by the Sci-Fi Channel, and continues with the spectacular follow up Children of Dune, which combines the second and third books from the series. Featuring a stellar cast worthy of such an epic saga, these award-winning productions are landmark in their vision and scope and remain two of the highest rating sci-fi programs in history.

From Wired:
https://www.wired.com/2022/06/geeks-gui ... iniseries/

...was one of the channel’s highest-rated programs...

Looper:
https://www.looper.com/797830/the-forgo ... liam-hurt/
The adaptation was a hit for the network at the time, averaging 4.4 million viewers over the three nights it aired (via Next TV). The series also proved to be a minor awards darling, winning two Emmy Awards in 2001 for Outstanding Cinematography and Outstanding Special Visual Effects in a miniseries or movie.

I could go on and on and on. It was a HUGE hit for the SciFi channel. If it wasn't, they would not have done a sequel (which is even better, much better).

It was a big deal back then. SciFi had not done such huge projects. Even the weekly series being shown were mostly gathered from other places. Sliders from FOX, Lexx from Canada I thinkl, and Stargate SGI from Showtime, etc. Even Farscape, which SciFi says was their first original series, was partially owned and financed by Hallmark. They promoted the hell out of Dune and it paid off. Next came Taken, Children of Dune and then BSG.

I'm not taking anything away from BSG. It had its own hype going. Richard Hatch (Apollo from the original series) was campaigning hard for a continuation, even filming his own trailer. Bryan Singer was to do a reboot. And, of course, Ron Moore
had his thing going. There was a documentary released for the 25th anniversary of the original series. It ended with a summary of all the above, and Richard Hatch saying he truly believed that BSG was going to continue on in one form or another. Of course, Ron Moore's version won out but there was a ton of hype leading up to the BSG mini-series.

The only info I could find about BSG's ratings said it averaged around 4.5 million...about the same as Dune. It did NOT "blow it away".

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The original novel isn't space opera (and it's overrated).

Dune is not a space opera. Not the novel, not the Lynch movie, not the miniseries, not Denis movie.

It depends on what you mean by "overrated". I found the novel boring and could not finish it. HOWEVER, it did to SciFi what Tolkein did for fantasy. It introduced world building on an epic scale. It created cultures and conflicts and rivalries among all of them. It was the first SciFi or Fantasy novel to introduce ecology and its impact on society in such a symbiotic way. It has commentary on politics and leadership style...and on and on. Dune, whether you like the book or not, is one of the most influential novels ever written in the genre...that is undeniable.

Stop making lists of shows. You loved to do that years ago. You don't need to do it now.

If I want to make a point by listing shows, I will. Dune is NOT a space opera....those other shows are and Dune is nothing like them...but, you can similarities among the space operas: Blake's 7 compared to Farscape. Babylon 5 to DS9, etc.

George Lucas helped himself — desert planet, spice mines, moisture farm, etcetera — to concepts from Dune and many other films and novels. Not interested in that old discussion. Make another thread for it.

Yes, he did. But, he did not dive into any of that stuff in the original trilogy. Those were minor additions worthy of only a few sentences...because Star Wars is less SciFi and more Fantasy and space opera. The Madolorian has expanded on more of that than Lucas did...they showed and fought a sand worm. They showed spice...literally dumping it on the sand. The showed the economics of spice mining and the corruption it causes. For anybody who did not know about the connections to Dune...the Mandolorian kinda threw it in your face.

[verslibre]

Good gravy. You're one anal mofo when it comes to your Sci-Fi/SyFy fetishism.

Again, calling it a "Showtime series" just shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. Saying that Showtime and the SciFi network were affiliated at that time shows you do not know what you are talking about. You are speaking outside of your wheelhouse, I'm not. When this stuff goes over your head, you try and catch it but miss.

Seriously...who gives a shit? You get your panties twisted because I referred to it in a particular way (that I've heard others do, too), but out there in your podunk backwater, it's not, and since you think you're always right, you're about to blow a gasket. I see the way you argue with others over seriously stupid shit on this forum, when they clearly have the upper hand. Your ego is gargantuan. Gawd.

And your tags are still funked up!

No, you prove it. BSG was way more popular and deservedly so.

Ok.

From Amazon, the description of the Dune/Children of Dune combo Blu-Ray:

Can you hear me laughing from all the way over here!!!

I could go on and on and on.

Please...don't.

I'm not taking anything away from BSG. It had its own hype going. Richard Hatch (Apollo from the original series) was campaigning hard for a continuation, even filming his own trailer. Bryan Singer was to do a reboot. And, of course, Ron Moore had his thing going. There was a documentary released for the 25th anniversary of the original series. It ended with a summary of all the above, and Richard Hatch saying he truly believed that BSG was going to continue on in one form or another. Of course, Ron Moore's version won out but there was a ton of hype leading up to the BSG mini-series.

1) Bryan Singer has had his name attached to countless films and projects that don't even get into the development stage. For that, I am thankful. A Singer-helmed BSG would be quite fruity.

2) Richard Hatch was a lovely guy. Gone too soon. His relaunch might've been good with the right team and a proper budget. But it could've also been perceived as an echo. While Moore's BSG was dubbed by many fans as "GINO," a hard revisit of the original show would've been criticized as antiquated. But Hatch's participation in the reboot showed how much love he had for the concept, and his addition was both welcomed and eloquent.

3) Moore's reboot was the way to go. It infused Larson's concept with elements of hard SF and multiple new tropes the very black-and-white original show lacked that caused it to be written off as a Star Wars rip-off (which it wasn't, but Star Wars fandom had exploded and anything that featured galactic soldiers with laser pistols and starship battles was put on blast).

The only info I could find about BSG's ratings said it averaged around 4.5 million...about the same as Dune. It did NOT "blow it away".

Don't stop believin.'

Dune is not a space opera. Not the novel, not the Lynch movie, not the miniseries, not Denis movie.

See, I can pull links, too.

‘Dune’ Review: A Space Opera Masterpiece With One Big Problem

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2 ... a08fe576db

Dune is a classic space opera. Let's talk about other great works in this genre.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertai ... story.html

Dune is #3 on this list.

https://discoverscifi.com/the-top-10-sp ... re%20items

20 Must-Read Space Opera Books

(Dune again!)

https://theportalist.com/space-opera-books

It depends on what you mean by "overrated". I found the novel boring and could not finish it. HOWEVER, it did to SciFi what Tolkein did for fantasy. It introduced world building on an epic scale. It created cultures and conflicts and rivalries among all of them. It was the first SciFi or Fantasy novel to introduce ecology and its impact on society in such a symbiotic way. It has commentary on politics and leadership style...and on and on. Dune, whether you like the book or not, is one of the most influential novels ever written in the genre...that is undeniable.

Overrated means overrated. Something can be highly influential, more so than works in the genre that are better. Dune is remembered much, much more for its world-building than its writing. It's not generally considered a well-written book, with writers and readers alike calling out the flimsy characterizations and leaden syntax. That's why you were unable to finish it. It is what it is. But it's still regarded as "quality literature."

Read Joe Haldeman's The Forever War — a tour-de-force of military SF with epic world-building and masterful storytelling. It's a classic.

Every single author on this list, a better writer than Herbert.

9 Books Like Dune To Read For Fans of Futuristic Science Fiction

https://similarlists.com/books-like-dun ... 0Asimov%20

[Monker]

Seriously...who gives a shit?

YOU DO. YOU decided to take a deep dive into something that is obviously out of your wheelhouse. You did NOT know the origin of the Dune mini-series. You did NOT know the popularity of it. You did NOT know the history of the SciFi channel and thought it was affiliated with Showtime. You do NOT seem to know the difference between a "space opera" and general science fiction.

This is like me going down the path of the history of DC comics...I avoid those things and try to focus on the movies.

Your ego is gargantuan. Gawd.

On certain things that I know I have a lot of knowledge about, yes, it is.

1) Bryan Singer has had his name attached to countless films and projects that don't even get into the development stage. For that, I am thankful. A Singer-helmed BSG would be quite fruity.

Point is, he was involved at one point. I remember reading a story where he had redesigned the Viper for his new series. He has books of sketches of different craft he wanted to use. What I am saying is there was a long history of BSG being remade...years before the miniseries. All of that added to the hype.

2) Richard Hatch was a lovely guy. Gone too soon. His relaunch might've been good with the right team and a proper budget. But it could've also been perceived as an echo. While Moore's BSG was dubbed by many fans as "GINO," a hard revisit of the original show would've been criticized as antiquated. But Hatch's participation in the reboot showed how much love he had for the concept, and his addition was both welcomed and eloquent.

A lot of fans rebelled against Ron Moore's vision of BSG because they wanted Hatch's continuation. Saying how it could have been perceived is ignoring how well received his preview was. Without Richard Hatch continually pushing for a revival of BSG, Moore's may have never existed.

And, again, the point is there was a lot of hype prior to the release of the BSG mini-series. It had a lot of things going for it and I am NOT arguing that it was unpopular.

3) Moore's reboot was the way to go. It infused Larson's concept with elements of hard SF and multiple new tropes the very black-and-white original show lacked that caused it to be written off as a Star Wars rip-off (which it wasn't, but Star Wars fandom had exploded and anything that featured galactic soldiers with laser pistols and starship battles was put on blast).

Moore's BSG had a great mini-series. The introduction of Six was well done, overall. I looked at the "human" like Cylons as a continuation of the IL Cylons (like Lucifer) from the original series. They added a lot of nostalgic bits...the original Viper, the old school Cylon, even a bit of the original theme (written by Glen A. Larson). The story is very similar to the old one. At that time, when Six broke the baby's neck and commented on how fragile humans are, I took it as her showing she is still an unfeeling robot on the inside with no empathy or feelings at all.

But, that changed as the weekly series started having "shocking" moments in every episode, who is going to be raped, murdered, or fucked this week? The writing became very repetitive in that way, expected and cliché. My favorite episode was where Starbuck crashed on a planet and had to modify and fly a Cylon ship back to Galactica. It showed character building, insight into Cylon "biology", etc. Those type of episodes were the exception. It became very obvious that the series had no true direction...it had NO CLUE where it was going week to week. They fucked up Commander Cain and the Pegasus battlestar. They turned it into a rape and murder fuck ship with an abused version of Six who was a repeated rape victim. I like Michelle Forbes from her time on Star Trek TNG...but her Cain was just lame and cliche. They would have done better to keep a version of the original story. In the end, the series finale was stupid and way over rated.

Moore took this family program with PG13 moments and turned it into an adult only show with Game of Throne moments to force drama. Gone were elements of Erich von Däniken's moments of "Chariots of the Gods"...which inspired the series in the first place and was a big part of the intro to the old show. Gone were exploration moments since they were further and further from home. Gone was a truly "evil" Baltar and was replaced by this psychologicaly disturbed version...and BTW, his "in his head" Six moments were stolen from what Farscape did with Harvey.

The reboot started out good and had potential. As the series went on, it had cliche writing with no direction that relied on shocking moments for drama, sexual moments to be edgy, and IMO is the most over rated weekly series the SciFi channel ever produced.

Don't stop believin.'

You asked for it, and I gave it to you. Article after article tells the FACT that Dune was and IS one of the most watched programs in SciFi history. The BSG miniseries may have equaled it, but it did NOT "blow it away".

See, I can pull links, too.

Yeah, you pull articles to repeat your OPINION. But, they do not show any facts.

It's not your fault that a bunch of people seem to not know the difference between Science Fiction and Space Opera.

Space Opera: Story about aliens and/or humans being out in space having relationships and "doing things". The science fiction behind the stories are very much irrelevant. The characters interacting, having dramatic moments, and the ins and outs of relationships drives the story. Worf returning to the Klingon home world to restore his honor, then finding his brother and getting caught up in Klingon politics, receiving help from Piccard as his advocate, etc...all of that may be a fine story (I love it, actually), but it is NOT science fiction.

Science Fiction: A story that can take place anywhere, on Earth, or somewhere else in space, that has a science or science fiction element at the center of its story. This element is so important that if you remove it, you would not be able to tell the story. Sure, the relationships between the characters are still important and may drive a story forward.

The central element in Dune is the spice. What would happen if humanity were so entwined with a substance that it affects all aspects of living. How we travel. What we base our religion on. How we improve our intellect, etc. And, what would happen if ONE group of people had control of that substance? Then expand that to the entire universe. The science fiction of spice and all the things it affects is so central to the story that you can not remove it and tell the story.

THAT is the difference between the two. Dune is NOT a space opera. That is a fact...despite how many OPINIONS you quote.

Overrated means overrated. Something can be highly influential, more so than works in the genre that are better.

The same type of critiques have been said about Tolkein and "Lord of the Rings". He does not follow traditional writing techniques making it harder to read and understand. At times he wrote things completely out of order making it harder to know the chain of events that happened. Those are just a couple things. HOWEVER, the LOTR trilogy are considered the best fantasy novels of the 20th century.

The same applies to Dune..it may be your opinion, and even mine, that they are stories that I don't care to read. But, that does NOT mean that Herbert was a bad author or story teller and the novels do not deserve to be recognized among the greatest science fiction stories ever written.

I love many HG Wells novels. "War of the Worlds", "The Time Machine", etc. I could not finish "Food of the Gods". You'd expect it to be about giant chickens and rats...and it is to point. Then it gets into a baby eating it and turning into a giant baby and then a giant child. The book goes on to talk about how he was forced into work in coal mines (I think). Then it turns into a social commentary about child labor laws and socialism and corporations and capitalism being bad...and he drags this on for a LONG time...a political commentary. It was jut too much and I couldn't finish it.

The point is, just because you and others do not like it does not mean that the author is a bad writer. Put the book down and read something else. I remember after I put Dune down, I read "Watership Down", "1984" and "Animal Farm". All kept my interest more than Dune and "Food of the Gods".

Dune is remembered much, much more for its world-building than its writing.

Again, you just don't know what you are talking about. What sets Dune apart is it was the first novel to base itself around ecology and the symbiotic relationships within such a system. You change one thing, and it affects EVERYTHING. The entire point of what Paul is doing is to free Dune to pursue Dr. Liet Kynes' vision to release the water and create a lush and "green" planet. I do not remember if Denis' version had Paul see a vision of this...the mini-series did. The later books explain that without the desert, the worms die, the Fremen people die, the Spice stops flowing and the entire universe is affected. The ecology of Dune affects the politics. It affects religion (both worshipping Muad'dib and the Bene Gesserit). It affects space travel. It affects mentats (who are the human replacement for computers). You change something and EVERYTHING is affected. No other novel prior to Dune attempted such a thing...but since then, many have tried to do similar things. THIS is what Dune is remembered for, not simply world building.

[verslibre]

Seriously...who gives a shit?

YOU DO. YOU decided to take a deep dive into something that is obviously out of your wheelhouse. You did NOT know the origin of the Dune mini-series. You did NOT know the popularity of it. You did NOT know the history of the SciFi channel and thought it was affiliated with Showtime. You do NOT seem to know the difference between a "space opera" and general science fiction.

Incorrect. Your m.o. to go out of your way to cherry-pick my posts always does a nosedive into the tidy bowl. I don't lie awake at night jerking myself off with a Threepio sock puppet because I "know the history of Sci-Fi/SyFy. I really don't like interacting with people like you because you suck the fun out of everything. Trust me, this will be the last time I indulge your full frontal nerdity in this thread. You can start another one.

Space opera is the subgenre of science fiction that emphasizes warfare and conflict over exploration, philosophy, poltics, etc., with no shortage of melodrama. However, that doesn't mean those elements are minimized or absent, they're still part of the mix. Robert Heinlein's groundbreaking Starship Troopers is a space opera, but the film cheapens the story and overemphasizes less important characters. The novel won the Hugo but has been repeatedly criticized as fascist and pro-military. Arguable. One of the book's key scenes is when Rico goes to enlist. His dialogue with the recruiter reveals a man who isn't a chest-thumping "You want this!" kind of personality but is keen to ascertain whether that's what Rico really wants. He rolls around casually from behind his desk on his wheeled chair while they're talking to reveal he's a double amputee. In the movie version, the recruiter is robotic, and merely says "The military made me the man I am today!" The camera cuts to show he has no legs, but it's now a gimmick. There's no emotion, no drama. The book's scene is somewhat poignant. The film's scene is just one component in a mindless SF actioner.

A direct translation of Dune to the screen will be unsuccessful. Why do you think the movie ends with the crysknife duel, and the next third is being saved for the second movie? It's not going to be a three-hour courtroom drama.

This is like me going down the path of the history of DC comics...I avoid those things and try to focus on the movies.

Smart move on your part. You definitely don't know shit about comics. On the other hand, I've read plenty of SF, and I'll say it again: Dune is overrated.

On certain things that I know I have a lot of knowledge about, yes, it is.

Irrelevant. You're just an egomaniac.

Point is, he was involved at one point. I remember reading a story where he had redesigned the Viper for his new series. He has books of sketches of different craft he wanted to use. What I am saying is there was a long history of BSG being remade...years before the miniseries. All of that added to the hype.

There's a long history of bringing BSG back from tbe boneyard, but Singer's a footnote. The guy's always juggled multiple balls (sometimes literally) via his Bad Hat Harry Productions. There wasn't much press given to his push for a new BSG show and that was before Sci-Fi Channel's involvement. After The Usual Suspects, he made Apt Pupil. Any chance of a real opportunity to work on BSG would've been vanquished once he got the X-Men gig. He appears to vie for multiple projects to ensure he'll got at least one and continue being a paid director. After X2, Singer was booted from Fox when they learned he was taking the Superman Returns gig.

But! Singer's so-called involvement doesn't end there. When Larson was pitching a theatrical Battlestar feature film in the late 2000s, Singer wanted to sign on, but he couldn't because he'd already accepted another gig: directing a piece of tonally fractured trash called Jack the Giant Slayer.

Moving right along...

A lot of fans rebelled against Ron Moore's vision of BSG because they wanted Hatch's continuation. Saying how it could have been perceived is ignoring how well received his preview was. Without Richard Hatch continually pushing for a revival of BSG, Moore's may have never existed.

Now you're really spewing the hyperbole. Hatch's trailer concept was made years earlier. It just didn't gain traction. Universal wasn't into it. It had no effect, good or bad, on Sci-Fi Channel's (your favorite network) move to commission Ron Moore and David Eick to write/produce the miniseries. They finally got a foothold and went for it.

And, again, the point is there was a lot of hype prior to the release of the BSG mini-series. It had a lot of things going for it and I am NOT arguing that it was unpopular.

Of course, because you know it was, and IS.

The reboot started out good and had potential. As the series went on, it had cliche writing with no direction that relied on shocking moments for drama, sexual moments to be edgy,

I'm the first guy to stand up and say BSG (2004-2009) had bad episodes. Some didn't make any fucking sense in the context of things. I mean...an entire episode about boxing!!?? That was just silly. It happens to most shows that keep getting extended. Fillers happen.

Yeah, the show got dark. But it's a reflection of humanity, and humanity was onboard that fleet. The fleet was humanity. Sure, there was the attempted rape of Boomer, but the Pegasus arc was overall very good, and Cain's demise came too soon. She was too hardline, two-note. But the intermixing of crews was realistic. After all, the Battlestars are the warships. Military.

and IMO is the most over rated weekly series the SciFi channel ever produced.

Yes, in your opinion. You're entitled to an opinion. But that doesn't mean it is.

Yeah, you pull articles to repeat your OPINION. But, they do not show any facts.

Bullshit. Plenty of facts. Facts up the ass. You want to think Dune is the "greatest SF novel of all time"? That's your opinion. (Sensing a theme?) Zelazny, Niven, Heinlein, Haldeman, Delany and Clarke say hi. In fact, Clarke is where Denis is going next. I can't wait to see what he does with Rendezvous with Rama. That will be unlike anything we've ever seen on the screen. It'll need to be modernized, natch, but that won't hinder a thing.

THAT is the difference between the two. Dune is NOT a space opera. That is a fact...despite how many OPINIONS you quote.

I need only my opinion, that being that, again, the book isn't, and the movie is. Deal with it.

The same type of critiques have been said about Tolkein and "Lord of the Rings". He does not follow traditional writing techniques making it harder to read and understand. At times he wrote things completely out of order making it harder to know the chain of events that happened. Those are just a couple things. HOWEVER, the LOTR trilogy are considered the best fantasy novels of the 20th century.

You only help prove my point. Tolkien's writing was on the cumbersome side, bogged down with so much background that should have been delivered in measured doses, instead of dumping all the batter on the reader at once. Herbert did another thing that irks many people: gratuitous foreshadowing. Sometimes he tells you what's about to happen before it happens, which is a big no-no in dramatic storytelling. You don't throw spoilers into your own story. It goes back to self-editing: Some can, some can't.

The same applies to Dune..it may be your opinion, and even mine, that they are stories that I don't care to read. But, that does NOT mean that Herbert was a bad author or story teller and the novels do not deserve to be recognized among the greatest science fiction stories ever written.

You have to clear your "head desk" and stop letting things overlap so much. A book getting recognized is one thing. The author's writing, good or bad, being analyzed is another. H.P. Lovecraft is another author whose books I dig. I read them all decades ago and revisit my favorites occasionally. But he's also been called out for his writing, and I can't really blame the critics for that. You either go along with his long-winded style, or you leave it. The same applies to Tolkien, King, Barker, etc. (And Barker, wow, there's another guy who uses far too many words to say something.)

I love many HG Wells novels.

Great. I love E.A. Poe and R.E. Howard.

The point is, just because you and others do not like it does not mean that the author is a bad writer. Put the book down and read something else. I remember after I put Dune down, I read "Watership Down", "1984" and "Animal Farm". All kept my interest more than Dune and "Food of the Gods".

Sometimes subpar writing is exactly that. Not every author is cut out for writing a lengthy novel. Some can just hold it together better than others. Dune initially was two shorter novels, published in the SF zine Analog. Herbert meshed them together for the publisher. Sometimes an expansion works, sometimes it's better to streamline...

It takes a lot to impress me. You wouldn't believe some of the talent out there. A few years ago, F&SF (I buy that only occasionally, it's been a while) published a novella titled "The Darkness Between." While that title is mundane, the actual story is anything but. It's superb. It could easily translate to a film. I don't have that copy handy, so you can research the writer. Should be easy enough.

You cited Watership Down. Richard Adams wrote another, better novel called The Plague Dogs. It's one of my favorites. It's one of the most intelligent treatises on animal behavior in fiction. The two title protagonists are as human as any biped, even more so. The narrative is layered like a Greek odyssey and builds to a powerful resolution. (The animated film was short, dealt with the most depressing aspects of the novel, and left out many of the best parts.) Adams' style is the opposite of succint but never feels burdensome. It's an incredible work that's overshadowed by its predecessor, Watership Down.

Again, you just don't know what you are talking about.

No, I just think you like typing on your keyboard on slow days at the office. World-building is a broad concept, and ecology is but a part of that. You're just babbling on and on. And on. And on. And on. Done here.

P.S. Okay, back to DC!

P.P.S., I hope you let Wil have a reacharound.

[verslibre]

I guess The Flash has been leaked in its entirety, or close to it. Shit's turning up on YT daily. And it's supposedly a comedy. And Keaton's not in it as much as they want everybody to think.

[jestor92]

I guess The Flash has been leaked in its entirety, or close to it. Shit's turning up on YT daily. And it's supposedly a comedy. And Keaton's not in it as much as they want everybody to think.

Keaton news is disappointing if true. I don’t care about Millers Flash more interested in Keaton playing Batman again.

[Monker]

Well, looks like Flash will do worse than Black Adam...and the George Clooney is the new Batman! As I said, this should have been a tax write-off.

Why they don't put a chasm of nothingness between the Snyderverse and the DCU makes no sense. Gunn needs to END this shit, not try to make these left-overs into hit movies. Nobody gives a damn about DCEU movies that are over-hyped, in production and direction HELL, starring a psychotic weirdo, AND DOES NOT REBOOT THE UNIVERSE as it should have.

Now, "Blue Beetle" is supposed to be the first DCU movie? WTF? Gunn is putting his chips on THAT movie? From what I could tell, the general plot is the same as Green Lantern, Shazam, even Ms. Marvel, and maybe a bit of Venom. Dude finds a "thing" that gives him super powers. Dude has to figure out how to use them. Villain shows up to fight. It's becoming a bit repetitive and predictable

At this point, they may have to take a write off on Aquaman 2 just to afford to make Superman Begins.
.

[jestor92]

Saw The Flash tonight. Let me start by saying I don’t read the comics. That said I didn’t like it. I thought the movie had to much going on (seemed to try to be an origin story but not really an origin story (an area where the Snyderverse did a terrible job with since only Superman had an origin. Everyone knows Batman’s). I disliked Miller’s Flash in the Snyderverse and it was only magnified with 2 of him. Keaton must’ve had the world’s fastest shave and haircut in human history. It was fun seeing the cameos, but I wish they would’ve had a cameo to the CW Arrowverse since Miller had a cameo there. Thought Kenton’s Batman looked overmatched due to his Batman movies being more grounded than the Affleck Batman. Supergirl really needed some extra background. The movie probably needed a 4 hour cut to be good.

[RedWingFan]

Just dropped in to see what everyone was saying about the new Flash flick from the awesome DC universe.
Tried to warn everyone years ago.

[verslibre]

Just dropped in to see what everyone was saying about the new Flash flick from the awesome DC universe.
Tried to warn everyone years ago.

Let me guess. You liked Love and Thunder...?

[verslibre]

Saw The Flash tonight. Let me start by saying I don’t read the comics. That said I didn’t like it.

There are so many things wrong with The Flash, it's dizzying, and not because of experiencing the Speed Force.

The film is essentially a...comedy. It's designed that way. Whatever it was was under the helm of a previous director (all walked or were dismissed, per whichever blog/report one cares to follow), it's a different animal. When they said it was a "loose adaptation" of Flashpoint, they weren't kidding! It's barely that.

I thought the movie had to much going on (seemed to try to be an origin story but not really an origin story (an area where the Snyderverse did a terrible job with since only Superman had an origin. Everyone knows Batman’s).

The Flash was filmed in 2019, slated for 2020 until the pandemic changed everything. That's why his origin is barely touched upon in the Justice League arc. They were saving it for his own movie.

It was fun seeing the cameos, but I wish they would’ve had a cameo to the CW Arrowverse since Miller had a cameo there. Thought Kenton’s Batman looked overmatched due to his Batman movies being more grounded than the Affleck Batman. Supergirl really needed some extra background.

Supergirl was explained well enough. In that timeline, Kal-el never makes it to Earth. She did and was captured. Jor-el is Kara's uncle.

I agree the CW characters deserved cameos. I can't believe they spent money creating a "flashback" for the never-realized Cage version of Superman. I guess doing that gave Gunn or whomever a real boner. That movie was never made and that shouldn't be in there.

The movie probably needed a 4 hour cut to be good.

As I've told others, including our bro YoungJRNYfan, there's a decent movie buried somewhere in that trash fire, but it would take serious excavation and polish to retrieve it.

But to rise above merely "good," that requires a different creative team. Andy Muschietti isn't a bad director (I like his IT duology), but Christina Hodson IS a bad writer.

[verslibre]

Why they don't put a chasm of nothingness between the Snyderverse and the DCU makes no sense..

Oh, it makes a lot of sense. That's Plan B. If Gunn doesn't set the world on fire with Legacy, his sandbox is going to get a lot smaller. When the studio learns to stop meddling is when things start improving.

[The_Noble_Cause]

My assorted thought on Flash.....

I found The Flash to be a mess, but an enjoyable one overall. Ezra's physical comedy impressed me and was actually quite humorous. He was mostly annoying in JL. Keaton's Batman doesn't really work without the Tim Burton neo-goth-noir aesthetic. It felt like a totally different character. The Clooney cameo is a funny, but cheap gag. The ending was supposed to set-up Keaton as the new DCU Batman in all films going forward. New management has kiboshed that and made the ending a throwaway cheap gag. Kinda sad. None of the Batman scenes (Afflek or Keaton) had any practical weight to them. Just crappy CGI. Overall I liked it, but there's no denying it's very much a product by committee with a lot post-production meddling going on. The box office failure does not bode well for Aquaman 2. As for Blue Beetle....it should be canned. It will not be successful.

[Monker]

Why they don't put a chasm of nothingness between the Snyderverse and the DCU makes no sense..

Oh, it makes a lot of sense. That's Plan B. If Gunn doesn't set the world on fire with Legacy, his sandbox is going to get a lot smaller. When the studio learns to stop meddling is when things start improving.

Funny how Fiege constantly "meddled" in Marvel and they released some of the biggest movies of all time...and when he stopped meddling so much, you get screaming goats and a SpongeBob wannabe.

I doubt there is a "plan B". They wanted these movies to be huge hits to up WB's selling price. Instead, they have lost hundreds of millions of dollars. Whoever buys WB is going to get it pretty cheap...and then Gunn, Snyder, and DC will be someone elses problem...if they decide to continue the charade at all. Selling WB and putting DC on hiatus is what the franchise really needs at this point.

Like I said months ago, they need to take a break and stop releasing ANYTHING and put all of this behind them and start fresh. Even Grace recently said the same thing...stealing my ideas again.

[Monker]

As for Blue Beetle....it should be canned. It will not be successful.

I doubt that can happen because it is Safron's baby...and it has no real ties to the previous movies as Flash and Shazam did. I also doubt Aquaman 2 will be canned because of how the first one was received. I'm sure there is high hope to have a hit out of it. It seems nobody can see how little these movies really matter to ticket buyers.

[verslibre]

Patrick Wilson, who plays Orm, confirmed Aquaman 2 "underwent reshoots" (again) last month.

It's more than obvious at this point that the film James Wan intended to make will not be the one that lands in theaters. Sad.

[verslibre]

Why they don't put a chasm of nothingness between the Snyderverse and the DCU makes no sense..

Oh, it makes a lot of sense. That's Plan B. If Gunn doesn't set the world on fire with Legacy, his sandbox is going to get a lot smaller. When the studio learns to stop meddling is when things start improving.

Funny how Fiege constantly "meddled" in Marvel and they released some of the biggest movies of all time...and when he stopped meddling so much, you get screaming goats and a SpongeBob wannabe.

I doubt there is a "plan B". They wanted these movies to be huge hits to up WB's selling price. Instead, they have lost hundreds of millions of dollars. Whoever buys WB is going to get it pretty cheap...and then Gunn, Snyder, and DC will be someone elses problem...if they decide to continue the charade at all. Selling WB and putting DC on hiatus is what the franchise really needs at this point.

Like I said months ago, they need to take a break and stop releasing ANYTHING and put all of this behind them and start fresh. Even Grace recently said the same thing...stealing my ideas again.

LOL. Zack isn't involved with WB. It's the Gunn Show. James is already introducing a whole new roster with his first film, Superman: Legacy. That cracks me up because Zack got endless hate for BvS having DC's three flagship heroes, but Legacy is going to have Green Lantern (Fillion, lol), Hawkgirl, Mister Terrific, The Authority (multiple characters) and I'm sure more are coming.

[Monker]

LOL. Zack isn't involved with WB. It's the Gunn Show. James is already introducing a whole new roster with his first film, Superman: Legacy. That cracks me up because Zack got endless hate for BvS having DC's three flagship heroes, but Legacy is going to have Green Lantern (Fillion, lol), Hawkgirl, Mister Terrific, The Authority (multiple characters) and I'm sure more are coming.

There is a big difference between what Snyder did in BvS and the above. That is, these are D level characters, except for Green Lantern...probably %99 of the audience hasn't even heard of them. I didn't hear any backlash from you for either Suicide Squad or THE Suicide Squad, and they also introduced a crap load of characters nobody had heard of. Nobody had heard of ANY of the characters in Guardians...and Gunn did OK with that.

I wish Nathan Fillion well. I heard a few months ago that he alone was trying to do a continuation of Firefly. A lot of people would love that. Maybe it will happen, maybe not.

[verslibre]

LOL. Zack isn't involved with WB. It's the Gunn Show. James is already introducing a whole new roster with his first film, Superman: Legacy. That cracks me up because Zack got endless hate for BvS having DC's three flagship heroes, but Legacy is going to have Green Lantern (Fillion, lol), Hawkgirl, Mister Terrific, The Authority (multiple characters) and I'm sure more are coming.

There is a big difference between what Snyder did in BvS and the above. That is, these are D level characters, except for Green Lantern...probably %99 of the audience hasn't even heard of them. I didn't hear any backlash from you for either Suicide Squad or THE Suicide Squad, and they also introduced a crap load of characters nobody had heard of. Nobody had heard of ANY of the characters in Guardians...and Gunn did OK with that.

Ayer's film introduced new characters, but Harley Quinn and Joker were anything but obscure. That experiment worked.

The problem with Gunn is he wants to super-size everything. The Suicide Squad (which wasn't good, nowhere near Ayer's) had far too many characters and took too many liberties with dialogue and the narrative. Only the last twenty minutes were solid, but the deus ex machina ending (against a Justice League nemesis, I must remind you) was laughably bad and Harley was awful throughout. The bottom line is Gunn has a hard-on for Robbie (and himself). TSS was a financial bust, too, but he still got the keys to the kingdom. Cavill was suddenly "too old" to play Superman, but Fillion is going to play Guy Gardner, and that's bad casting, pure and simple.

I wish Nathan Fillion well. I heard a few months ago that he alone was trying to do a continuation of Firefly. A lot of people would love that. Maybe it will happen, maybe not.

Never going to happen with the plethora of far better SF across multiple platforms available now. If you want to watch bad Star Wars, watch bad Star Wars.

[Monker]

Ayer's film introduced new characters, but Harley Quinn and Joker were anything but obscure. That experiment worked.

Uh, no, it didn't. The first Suicide Squad was a horrible movie. If it worked so well they would not have had to try to reboot it. In fact, there would probably have been a sequel before Gunn did his reboot.

The problem with Gunn is he wants to super-size everything. The Suicide Squad (which wasn't good, nowhere near Ayer's) had far too many characters and took too many liberties with dialogue and the narrative. Only the last twenty minutes were solid, but the deus ex machina ending (against a Justice League nemesis, I must remind you) was laughably bad and Harley was awful throughout. The bottom line is Gunn has a hard-on for Robbie (and himself). TSS was a financial bust, too, but he still got the keys to the kingdom. Cavill was suddenly "too old" to play Superman, but Fillion is going to play Guy Gardner, and that's bad casting, pure and simple.

LOL...that's hilarious. In the months before release you and YJ were laughing how DC stole Gunn from Marvel. To which I replied that it didn't work out so well last time (meaning Joss Whedon). Funny how this turned out.

I really don't like either movie much. So, swing away!

None of what you said changes the fact that you didn't complain about the number of character BEFORE the movies were released. In fact, I don't think you did until now. You do not know how Gunn's Superman will turn out...you just don't like Gunn, LOL.

I wish Nathan Fillion well. I heard a few months ago that he alone was trying to do a continuation of Firefly. A lot of people would love that. Maybe it will happen, maybe not.

Never going to happen with the plethora of far better SF across multiple platforms available now. If you want to watch bad Star Wars, watch bad Star Wars.

If Amazon can continue Stargate SG1, then I don't see why Disney+ can't pick up Firefly. Hell, there is even a Babylon 5 animated movie. There is nothing wrong with Firefly...they have a fan base that has been begging for more for 20yrs or so. Fillion loves the show and has said he would drop other projects to do it...so, if you don't like him as a Green Lantern, you should support Firefly!

Firefly is NOT Star Wars....It's more comparable to Cowboy Bebop.

[Monker]

For anybody curious about Nathan Fillion and his various projects, including DC and Firefly, here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMRf6dN ... el=SciTrek

[verslibre]

If Amazon can continue Stargate SG1, then I don't see why Disney+ can't pick up Firefly. Hell, there is even a Babylon 5 animated movie. There is nothing wrong with Firefly...they have a fan base that has been begging for more for 20yrs or so. Fillion loves the show and has said he would drop other projects to do it...so, if you don't like him as a Green Lantern, you should support Firefly!

The only person with a hard-on for it is you, dude. Nate can crowdfund it if he thinks there's anything there. Fire up your Venmo, just in case.

[Monker]

If Amazon can continue Stargate SG1, then I don't see why Disney+ can't pick up Firefly. Hell, there is even a Babylon 5 animated movie. There is nothing wrong with Firefly...they have a fan base that has been begging for more for 20yrs or so. Fillion loves the show and has said he would drop other projects to do it...so, if you don't like him as a Green Lantern, you should support Firefly!

The only person with a hard-on for it is you, dude. Nate can crowdfund it if he thinks there's anything there. Fire up your , just in case.

Watch the video I posted. Do you have any clue how many Firefly fans there are? He doesn't need to fund anything...he could go to Disney+ and do a series right now, but without Joss Wheedon. So, he would rather do movies with Universal who do not have such a problem with Joss. And, for the record, I agree with Fillion. Firefly would not be Firefly without Joss....just like Guardians of the Galaxy would not be GotG without Gunn.

At the start of this, all I said was is I wish Fillion well. I loved the Firefly series, and the Serenity movie and I'd love to see more...but I'm no where near a "Browncoat". There is a lot more interest out there than you realize...obsessive interest.

[verslibre]

Zzzzzzz...if nobody wants to finance it, move on. Plenty of content out there.

Serenity was boring. I fell asleep during that, remember?

[Monker]

Zzzzzzz...if nobody wants to finance it, move on. Plenty of content out there.

Serenity was boring. I fell asleep during that, remember?

You are ignoring things. Disney+ WANTS a Firefly series. It's not a matter of financing. It's a matter of what format and where. Disney has the rights to the series. Universal has the movie rights. Fillion wants to do movies because he can then have time for other things....like being a Green Lantern and having a significant role in the DCU. Fillion wants Joss...Disney wants nothing to do with Joss. Those are the type of details that are hanging it up...NOT financing. So, if Firefly falls through, it's possible the DCU will see MORE of his Green Lantern. If he signs with Disney+ to do a series, you are probably going to see a lot less of him in the DCU. If Universal does some movies, his time for the DCU will still be there, but limited a bit.

Whether you like Serenity or Firefly is irrelevant. MILLIONS of other people do..and some of them make Perry loons look sane.

[verslibre]

And then Star Wars fans make the Firefly loons look sane. "So, it's on, and on, and on...it's Heaven and Hell."

If DIsney+ wants to make it, wait for them to foot the bill. Nothing to lose your shit over.

[Monker]

And then Star Wars fans make the Firefly loons look sane.

Not true. Star Wars, and Star Trek, deserve all the credit for being ground breaking, influential, and great story telling. Firefly had 14 episodes and one movie...and Browncoats will argue to their death that it tops all of that from both SW and ST. It's like arguing that Steve Perry isn't the greatest singer of all time in a room full of Perry fans...if Perry only released Infinity and had only one tour with Journey. Perry will always be near the top of fan favorite best vocalists, and Firefly will always be near the top of best scifi series...because their fans go crazy over the topic. It's a great show...but way over rated by many of its over zealous fans.

If DIsney+ wants to make it, wait for them to foot the bill. Nothing to lose your shit over.

I'm not. I'm just trying to give the facts here that Firefly has a very good chance of continuing, either with Disney+ or with Universal...and that it affects the DCU because of how much time Fillion can give to his Green Lantern. And, you are arguing that it is never going to happen and implying it is not popular by saying I'm the only one who wants it. The last time you acted this way here, you were arguing with me that Cavill had signed to do MoS2 and other movies, was going to appear in cameos in Shazam and Flash...and I said none of that had been finalized yet..and was unlikely because Black Adam underperformed and Rock has a big mouth. I think you should choose your battles a bit more carefully.

[verslibre]

If you think a hefty portion of the Star Wars fan base doesn't consist of kooks, you haven't met them. My brother-in-law's one of them.

(Naturally, Firefly fans are kooks, too, but I don't personally know any, fortunately!)

As for great storytelling, Trek is way ahead overall. For every good Star Wars movie, there are two bad ones.

I think you should choose your battles a bit more carefully.

Oh. walk it back, you putz. I don't care one way or another if your precious little Firefly shows gets resurrected. I just told you to get ready to pony up if Nate needs shekels.

Does a day go by where you don't fondle yourself over Steve Perry, though?

[Monker]

If you think a hefty portion of the Star Wars fan base doesn't consist of kooks, you haven't met them. My brother-in-law's one of them.

(Naturally, Firefly fans are kooks, too, but I don't personally know any, fortunately!)

Wow. Why do you try to get into in depth discussion about things you are ignorant about?

I'll put it this way...there are probably 10 times as many Star Wars or Star Trek "fans" as there are Firefly. But, in some internet polls FireFly will beat out them both out. If you can't understand why that is loopy, then there is no point in discussing it with you.

As for great storytelling, Trek is way ahead overall. For every good Star Wars movie, there are two bad ones.

That is such a minor point in what I was trying to say. Star Wars did to SciFi movies what "Lord of the Rings" did for fantasy. Star Trek defined what a "Space Opera" series could be on TV. It wasn't the FIRST scifi show but it influenced everything that followed...as did Dr. Who, which was the first. Star Trek movies also had issues, especially the last couple Next Generation movies and the Khan remake from the reboot....they should not have messed with Khan. But, that is a minor point when you look at the sheer size of both catalogues. Which is the greater franchise, Firefly compared to EITHER SW or ST? Even Firefly vs. something obscure'ish like Blake's 7, or "Lost In Space", or "X-Files", or "Twilight Zone", and MANY others. But, Firefly gets voted into the top 10, sometimes the top 5 or #1, in internet polls of best scifi franchise, or scifi TV show, etc.

Oh. walk it back, you putz. I don't care one way or another if your precious little Firefly shows gets resurrected. I just told you to get ready to pony up if Nate needs shekels.

Of course you care. I think you just don't like Fillion and Gunn and want them both to walk off a cliff. So, it's in your nature to attack anything either of them have to do with. But, that does not change the fact there is a good possibility that Fillion will return to Firefly in some way and that will affect the DCU. Like I said, if you don't want to see him as a Green Lantern, you should WANT a Firefly series.

Also, Gunn talks about a Star-Lord solo movie in the extras on the Gotg3 blu-ray...so, it may be that he plans to do another Marvel movie.

Does a day go by where you don't fondle yourself over Steve Perry, though?

It's an easy comparison on this forum...everybody knows about it. Another would be seeing a rebuilt Superman statue in a promo for Snyder and thinking that is a sign that Snyder and Cavill are returning. That reminds me of the made up bullshit Perry fans used to say he was coming out with an album...the 10yr rule, made up non-competition clauses, crazy made up shit because they were desperate to hear from him......just as it seems some people are desperate for Snyder and Cavill to return to DC. It's all the same type of fanatical thinking.

[verslibre]

Thou art the Nerd of Nerds. Thou art LORD of All Nerds. Your Full Frontal Nerdity is unparalleled.



Your post is SO silly and SO nitpicky and SO anal, I won't go near it, except for this tidbit.

Also, Gunn talks about a Star-Lord solo movie in the extras on the Gotg3 blu-ray...so, it may be that he plans to do another Marvel movie.

I will not be shocked if he does, and that is exactly, precisely, why he should not have been made showrunner at WB/DC.