Muslim cleric caught sneaking into the U.S.

[Don]

The Quran in Sura 4:34 says:

4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (Haleem, emphasis added)

Someone's been glancing at Charlie Sheen's Daily Reminder List again.

[RossValoryRocks]

You would have brought that up in your next post if I had said "what have you done lately"
Oh and thanks again for serving

Your problem is you want to debate by twisting peoples words. Lets get one thing straight. If I agreed with the way any of those morons run the countries in ANY of the Islamic governments, youd think I would give up my friends and family and live here?
Just sit down for a minute and try to understand this: I am not defending the barbaric ways they people of countries are treated under the name of religion.
I defend the people that are true muslims and are suffering every day cause they have to put up with Imams&Morons running their country, forcing them BS that has nothing to do with the actual religion.
The people of those countries have more hate towards their own government than our PEOPLE....
Yet we hear equally idiotic statements from within our own people that " we should just kill them all".... yup, killing people based on their religion is very similiar to what Adolf did, isnt it?

We are in agreement then, and maybe just maybe those people in those countries should stand up then? If the Moderate, or "good" muslims as it were, would stand up and shout down the other "so-called" muslims who would pervert their religion, threaten their lives, and STONE them to death for imagined crimes then the rest of the world would support them, but they don't and that is seen as tacit approval by the rest of the world, and you know it.

And I am not twisting your words Beshad, I countered with valid sources that this shit goes on in countries that are predominately muslim, are run by the clerics who tell the people what their religion is and suppress all desent. Those are the people I am going after, and then you counter with statistics that have no bearing on the discussion at hand and run down the US because, unfortunately, rapes happen here too...they happen EVERY WHERE...and it LOOKS like you are supporting those same Muslim countries by running down the US and saying we should ignore what is happening there because it is worse here, when you KNOW that isn't the truth.

They DO try to stand up! Did you not read my BOOK on the other page!! The young people in Iran TRIED!! But guess what, they have an army and clerics against them! They brought baseball bats to a gun battle! They were slaughtered and some died. THEY are the majority of muslims in that country. Trying to be heard, but no one cares. Our government won't. There are too many political issues for that to happen. They can't do that for every country. They handle it with sanctions and threats. That doesn't help the common person, NOT happy being suppressed! There are moderate clerics there, but they can't even speak up! If they try, then their families will be killed. The moderates or even those who dont' even want to freaking follow the religion, but are forced to, have no way to fight back. What do YOU propose THEY do??? Unless the army turns on it's own government, there is nothing.

If the founders of this country could do it against (at the time) the single most powerful nation on the face of the earth, with a population that was apathetic for the most part, then THEY can stand up to their governments...and LET US BE CLEAR; they weren't fighting the religious aspect of the government...they were fighting for other rights they felt they were being denied.

Regardless of why they were fighting we should have supported them, and damn us for not doing so.

[StevePerryHair]

You would have brought that up in your next post if I had said "what have you done lately"
Oh and thanks again for serving

Your problem is you want to debate by twisting peoples words. Lets get one thing straight. If I agreed with the way any of those morons run the countries in ANY of the Islamic governments, youd think I would give up my friends and family and live here?
Just sit down for a minute and try to understand this: I am not defending the barbaric ways they people of countries are treated under the name of religion.
I defend the people that are true muslims and are suffering every day cause they have to put up with Imams&Morons running their country, forcing them BS that has nothing to do with the actual religion.
The people of those countries have more hate towards their own government than our PEOPLE....
Yet we hear equally idiotic statements from within our own people that " we should just kill them all".... yup, killing people based on their religion is very similiar to what Adolf did, isnt it?

We are in agreement then, and maybe just maybe those people in those countries should stand up then? If the Moderate, or "good" muslims as it were, would stand up and shout down the other "so-called" muslims who would pervert their religion, threaten their lives, and STONE them to death for imagined crimes then the rest of the world would support them, but they don't and that is seen as tacit approval by the rest of the world, and you know it.

And I am not twisting your words Beshad, I countered with valid sources that this shit goes on in countries that are predominately muslim, are run by the clerics who tell the people what their religion is and suppress all desent. Those are the people I am going after, and then you counter with statistics that have no bearing on the discussion at hand and run down the US because, unfortunately, rapes happen here too...they happen EVERY WHERE...and it LOOKS like you are supporting those same Muslim countries by running down the US and saying we should ignore what is happening there because it is worse here, when you KNOW that isn't the truth.

They DO try to stand up! Did you not read my BOOK on the other page!! The young people in Iran TRIED!! But guess what, they have an army and clerics against them! They brought baseball bats to a gun battle! They were slaughtered and some died. THEY are the majority of muslims in that country. Trying to be heard, but no one cares. Our government won't. There are too many political issues for that to happen. They can't do that for every country. They handle it with sanctions and threats. That doesn't help the common person, NOT happy being suppressed! There are moderate clerics there, but they can't even speak up! If they try, then their families will be killed. The moderates or even those who dont' even want to freaking follow the religion, but are forced to, have no way to fight back. What do YOU propose THEY do??? Unless the army turns on it's own government, there is nothing.

If the founders of this country could do it against (at the time) the single most powerful nation on the face of the earth, with a population that was apathetic for the most part, then THEY can stand up to their governments...and LET US BE CLEAR; they weren't fighting the religious aspect of the government...they were fighting for other rights they felt they were being denied.

Regardless of why they were fighting we should have supported them, and damn us for not doing so.

First of all I'm talking about 2 years ago!! Not the 70's!! The youth stood up to the government... a mini-revolution...

They were fighting for rights they don't have BECAUSE of the religious aspects. Do you know that in Iran, before Kohmeni took over, they didn't have to cover their hair? And MANY or most Iranian women didn't??? They didn't have religious law. They had a dictator sort of government sure, but not a religious one. I watched that Ann Curry special, and she actually interviewed youth. They were in the woods when she talked to them. Some were brave enough to talk on camera, some made them tape their legs, and not their faces. They were simply there to HOLD HANDS and KISS their boyfriends in public!! Outside the city, where it was safe to. These are RELIGIOUS laws and they are being denied basic human desires because of religion. Where do you see them loving that? This is the majority I believe in Iran. Not the minority, from what I saw. Do you know that MOST people living in Iran are under the age of 50? The youth is the answer there. They are getting tired. But they are helpless with an army. Imagine what the government just GIVE that army to keep them SO loyal! I don't believe it has ANYTHING to do with religion as to WHY they fight the people for the government.

[RossValoryRocks]

And here I was thinking this thread would lead to a left/right confrontation on immigration.

Melodicrocks resident Jihadist had to come defend the "Religion of Peace"...sorry it took a wrong turn.

Stu, you CAN'T be that ignorant. So what, I'm a jihadist too? Or was my post too long for anyone to actually read? You are missing all the points. Picking apart posts and using them for your own advantage to make him look like his points aren't valid. What because he has a muslim name, he can't be valid or have an opinion without being a jihadist? You all are the most close minded bunch of people I have ever seen. There is a lot more to this than just exterminating a bunch of people. And if you think the U.S. is perfect in every middle eastern decision they have made, that is pretty funny. I use my own brain and the evidence I see is that you are all wrong.

Oh please...I don't think that the US has made all great, good or even mediocre decisions in our ME policies.

I am not picking apart anything...I am countering his facts with REAL world examples of what happens in those countries.

I wasn't the one who advocated exterminating a bunch of people, I advocate the facing down of the extremists by any country and any people that will do so. Send them to their 72 virgins and a one one with Allah, the problem is very few muslims will do that. Yes I know they would face death for doing so, but so did the founders of this country...The only way to fight evil is to confront it, and defeat it. I am sorry but it looked like Beshad was DEFENDING the extremist point of view by saying the US is worse, until his last post which was the most enlightned response I have heard in a very long time from him on the subject.

But see when I see him say "both sides" i read that to mean that he feels that it's partially U.S. policy decisions IN the middle east that created the angry atmosphere, poor atmosphere, war torn atmosphere, that created the PERFECT breading ground for these extreme killers! They are USING it. That's how I took it. Not that he thinks the U.S. is evil, just that decisions they made helped add to the hate cause against the U. S. He can correct me if I'm wrong. I don't want to speak for anyone.

WE built those countries...we put all the money in to them initially to build their oil infrastructure...they were herding goats in the desert 100 years ago (Oil was discovered in Kuwait in 1911 I believe is the correct date) and they had NOTHING...we gave it to them and all of that allowed them to prosper. We gave them running water, schools, everything they needed to enter the modern era.

Yes some US decisions would appear "poor" to the Muslim countries, like supporting Israel's right to exist for example but are the "right" thing to do. We have done things like make them rich, make them players on the world stage, and for that and other offenses they want to kill us (The extremist that is).

[StevePerryHair]

And here I was thinking this thread would lead to a left/right confrontation on immigration.

Melodicrocks resident Jihadist had to come defend the "Religion of Peace"...sorry it took a wrong turn.

Stu, you CAN'T be that ignorant. So what, I'm a jihadist too? Or was my post too long for anyone to actually read? You are missing all the points. Picking apart posts and using them for your own advantage to make him look like his points aren't valid. What because he has a muslim name, he can't be valid or have an opinion without being a jihadist? You all are the most close minded bunch of people I have ever seen. There is a lot more to this than just exterminating a bunch of people. And if you think the U.S. is perfect in every middle eastern decision they have made, that is pretty funny. I use my own brain and the evidence I see is that you are all wrong.

Oh please...I don't think that the US has made all great, good or even mediocre decisions in our ME policies.

I am not picking apart anything...I am countering his facts with REAL world examples of what happens in those countries.

I wasn't the one who advocated exterminating a bunch of people, I advocate the facing down of the extremists by any country and any people that will do so. Send them to their 72 virgins and a one one with Allah, the problem is very few muslims will do that. Yes I know they would face death for doing so, but so did the founders of this country...The only way to fight evil is to confront it, and defeat it. I am sorry but it looked like Beshad was DEFENDING the extremist point of view by saying the US is worse, until his last post which was the most enlightned response I have heard in a very long time from him on the subject.

But see when I see him say "both sides" i read that to mean that he feels that it's partially U.S. policy decisions IN the middle east that created the angry atmosphere, poor atmosphere, war torn atmosphere, that created the PERFECT breading ground for these extreme killers! They are USING it. That's how I took it. Not that he thinks the U.S. is evil, just that decisions they made helped add to the hate cause against the U. S. He can correct me if I'm wrong. I don't want to speak for anyone.

WE built those countries...we put all the money in to them initially to build their oil infrastructure...they were herding goats in the desert 100 years ago (Oil was discovered in Kuwait in 1911 I believe is the correct date) and they had NOTHING...we gave it to them and all of that allowed them to prosper. We gave them running water, schools, everything they needed to enter the modern era.

Yes some US decisions would appear "poor" to the Muslim countries, like supporting Israel's right to exist for example but are the "right" thing to do. We have done things like make them rich, make them players on the world stage, and for that and other offenses they want to kill us (The extremist that is).

We also gave some of them guns so they could help fight other ones when it was an interest to us. I guess I don't get the point with this, because it seems to me that the U.S. did NOT do this out of the goodness of their hearts to help these people! They did it for OIL. For our OWN interest. You don't think those people know that? And now they use that argument against us. That EVERYTHING is about oil.

[Don]

To be fair, Mohammad Rezā Shāh Pahlavi was from all accounts a very bad person, and by backing him for so long and overlooking his transgressions we did ourselves no favors when his opposition gained the upper hand.

[RossValoryRocks]

You would have brought that up in your next post if I had said "what have you done lately"
Oh and thanks again for serving

Your problem is you want to debate by twisting peoples words. Lets get one thing straight. If I agreed with the way any of those morons run the countries in ANY of the Islamic governments, youd think I would give up my friends and family and live here?
Just sit down for a minute and try to understand this: I am not defending the barbaric ways they people of countries are treated under the name of religion.
I defend the people that are true muslims and are suffering every day cause they have to put up with Imams&Morons running their country, forcing them BS that has nothing to do with the actual religion.
The people of those countries have more hate towards their own government than our PEOPLE....
Yet we hear equally idiotic statements from within our own people that " we should just kill them all".... yup, killing people based on their religion is very similiar to what Adolf did, isnt it?

We are in agreement then, and maybe just maybe those people in those countries should stand up then? If the Moderate, or "good" muslims as it were, would stand up and shout down the other "so-called" muslims who would pervert their religion, threaten their lives, and STONE them to death for imagined crimes then the rest of the world would support them, but they don't and that is seen as tacit approval by the rest of the world, and you know it.

And I am not twisting your words Beshad, I countered with valid sources that this shit goes on in countries that are predominately muslim, are run by the clerics who tell the people what their religion is and suppress all desent. Those are the people I am going after, and then you counter with statistics that have no bearing on the discussion at hand and run down the US because, unfortunately, rapes happen here too...they happen EVERY WHERE...and it LOOKS like you are supporting those same Muslim countries by running down the US and saying we should ignore what is happening there because it is worse here, when you KNOW that isn't the truth.

They DO try to stand up! Did you not read my BOOK on the other page!! The young people in Iran TRIED!! But guess what, they have an army and clerics against them! They brought baseball bats to a gun battle! They were slaughtered and some died. THEY are the majority of muslims in that country. Trying to be heard, but no one cares. Our government won't. There are too many political issues for that to happen. They can't do that for every country. They handle it with sanctions and threats. That doesn't help the common person, NOT happy being suppressed! There are moderate clerics there, but they can't even speak up! If they try, then their families will be killed. The moderates or even those who dont' even want to freaking follow the religion, but are forced to, have no way to fight back. What do YOU propose THEY do??? Unless the army turns on it's own government, there is nothing.

If the founders of this country could do it against (at the time) the single most powerful nation on the face of the earth, with a population that was apathetic for the most part, then THEY can stand up to their governments...and LET US BE CLEAR; they weren't fighting the religious aspect of the government...they were fighting for other rights they felt they were being denied.

Regardless of why they were fighting we should have supported them, and damn us for not doing so.

First of all I'm talking about 2 years ago!! Not the 70's!! The youth stood up to the government... a mini-revolution...

They were fighting for rights they don't have BECAUSE of the religious aspects. Do you know that in Iran, before Kohmeni took over, they didn't have to cover their hair? And MANY or most Iranian women didn't??? They didn't have religious law. They had a dictator sort of government sure, but not a religious one. I watched that Ann Curry special, and she actually interviewed youth. They were in the woods when she talked to them. Some were brave enough to talk on camera, some made them tape their legs, and not their faces. They were simply there to HOLD HANDS and KISS their boyfriends in public!! Outside the city, where it was safe to. These are RELIGIOUS laws and they are being denied basic human desires because of religion. Where do you see them loving that? This is the majority I believe in Iran. Not the minority, from what I saw. Do you know that MOST people living in Iran are under the age of 50? The youth is the answer there. They are getting tired. But they are helpless with an army. Imagine what the government just GIVE that army to keep them SO loyal! I don't believe it has ANYTHING to do with religion as to WHY they fight the people for the government.

I know the history of Iran well...the US also threw out a democratically elected government in 1953 to support the Shah? Yeah we made mistakes.

[StevePerryHair]

To be fair, Mohammad Rezā Shāh Pahlavi was from all accounts a very bad person, and by backing him for so long and overlooking his transgressions we did ourselves no favors when those he oppressed gained the upper hand.

He was a typical dictator. He killed or arrested anyone who he thought was a threat. That's what dictators do, because when they don't, they get overthrown. That is how those governments work, and why we are so LUCKY to live in the USA remember? I STILL think he was better than Khomeini and what he did to that country. The shah didn't suppress ALL people from expressing themselves. Khomeini lied to the people at that time. He promised the youth he would rid Iran of all the evil that the shah imposed on them. And look what happened! A wolf in sheeps clothing! He was WORSE! The people thought it was a joke when he put out the new "religious" laws after that revolution ended in the 70's. They trusted the wrong person. The shah was not perfect, and no it was no democracy, but they had basic human rights that are now LACKING because we turned our backs. and I think that the shah would have worked with the US to maybe change some of his ways. He was very close to or President at the time. I learned a LOT from the special I watched. They aired it on NBC and then about 2 weeks later is when the "mini-revolution" broke out, so I watched all the news coverage at that time too.

[Don]

We've definitely made a few mistakes. Supporting the overthrow of Norodom Sihanouk indirectly brought about civil war and the death of hundreds of thousands when all was said and done.
Sometimes, the word 'mistake' just isn't adequate enough to describe what becomes of that action.

[StevePerryHair]

You would have brought that up in your next post if I had said "what have you done lately"
Oh and thanks again for serving

Your problem is you want to debate by twisting peoples words. Lets get one thing straight. If I agreed with the way any of those morons run the countries in ANY of the Islamic governments, youd think I would give up my friends and family and live here?
Just sit down for a minute and try to understand this: I am not defending the barbaric ways they people of countries are treated under the name of religion.
I defend the people that are true muslims and are suffering every day cause they have to put up with Imams&Morons running their country, forcing them BS that has nothing to do with the actual religion.
The people of those countries have more hate towards their own government than our PEOPLE....
Yet we hear equally idiotic statements from within our own people that " we should just kill them all".... yup, killing people based on their religion is very similiar to what Adolf did, isnt it?

We are in agreement then, and maybe just maybe those people in those countries should stand up then? If the Moderate, or "good" muslims as it were, would stand up and shout down the other "so-called" muslims who would pervert their religion, threaten their lives, and STONE them to death for imagined crimes then the rest of the world would support them, but they don't and that is seen as tacit approval by the rest of the world, and you know it.

And I am not twisting your words Beshad, I countered with valid sources that this shit goes on in countries that are predominately muslim, are run by the clerics who tell the people what their religion is and suppress all desent. Those are the people I am going after, and then you counter with statistics that have no bearing on the discussion at hand and run down the US because, unfortunately, rapes happen here too...they happen EVERY WHERE...and it LOOKS like you are supporting those same Muslim countries by running down the US and saying we should ignore what is happening there because it is worse here, when you KNOW that isn't the truth.

They DO try to stand up! Did you not read my BOOK on the other page!! The young people in Iran TRIED!! But guess what, they have an army and clerics against them! They brought baseball bats to a gun battle! They were slaughtered and some died. THEY are the majority of muslims in that country. Trying to be heard, but no one cares. Our government won't. There are too many political issues for that to happen. They can't do that for every country. They handle it with sanctions and threats. That doesn't help the common person, NOT happy being suppressed! There are moderate clerics there, but they can't even speak up! If they try, then their families will be killed. The moderates or even those who dont' even want to freaking follow the religion, but are forced to, have no way to fight back. What do YOU propose THEY do??? Unless the army turns on it's own government, there is nothing.

If the founders of this country could do it against (at the time) the single most powerful nation on the face of the earth, with a population that was apathetic for the most part, then THEY can stand up to their governments...and LET US BE CLEAR; they weren't fighting the religious aspect of the government...they were fighting for other rights they felt they were being denied.

Regardless of why they were fighting we should have supported them, and damn us for not doing so.

First of all I'm talking about 2 years ago!! Not the 70's!! The youth stood up to the government... a mini-revolution...

They were fighting for rights they don't have BECAUSE of the religious aspects. Do you know that in Iran, before Kohmeni took over, they didn't have to cover their hair? And MANY or most Iranian women didn't??? They didn't have religious law. They had a dictator sort of government sure, but not a religious one. I watched that Ann Curry special, and she actually interviewed youth. They were in the woods when she talked to them. Some were brave enough to talk on camera, some made them tape their legs, and not their faces. They were simply there to HOLD HANDS and KISS their boyfriends in public!! Outside the city, where it was safe to. These are RELIGIOUS laws and they are being denied basic human desires because of religion. Where do you see them loving that? This is the majority I believe in Iran. Not the minority, from what I saw. Do you know that MOST people living in Iran are under the age of 50? The youth is the answer there. They are getting tired. But they are helpless with an army. Imagine what the government just GIVE that army to keep them SO loyal! I don't believe it has ANYTHING to do with religion as to WHY they fight the people for the government.

I know the history of Iran well...the US also threw out a democratically elected government in 1953 to support the Shah? Yeah we made mistakes.

Yes, I know you are talking about the big revolutions of the past. I was referring to the youth of TODAY trying to stand up though. TRYING to fight with no support! They are still trying, but they can't win. Unarmed people can not fight an army.

[Don]

To be fair, Mohammad Rezā Shāh Pahlavi was from all accounts a very bad person, and by backing him for so long and overlooking his transgressions we did ourselves no favors when those he oppressed gained the upper hand.

He was a typical dictator. He killed or arrested anyone who he thought was a threat. That's what dictators do, because when they don't, they get overthrown. That is how those governments work, and why we are so LUCKY to live in the USA remember? I STILL think he was better than Khomeini and what he did to that country. The shah didn't suppress ALL people from expressing themselves. Khomeini lied to the people at that time. He promised the youth he would rid Iran of all the evil that the shah imposed on them. And look what happened! A wolf in sheeps clothing! He was WORSE! The people thought it was a joke when he put out the new "religious" laws after that revolution ended in the 70's. They trusted the wrong person. The shah was not perfect, and no it was no democracy, but they had basic human rights that are now LACKING because we turned our backs. and I think that the shah would have worked with the US to maybe change some of his ways. He was very close to or President at the time. I learned a LOT from the special I watched. They aired it on NBC and then about 2 weeks later is when the "mini-revolution" broke out, so I watched all the news coverage at that time too.

The same can be said of Saddam. He created a secular state that was actually more western than middle eastern in style. Of course, he used chemical weapons on dissidents and committed other atrocities but all was over looked by us until Kuwait happened.

Protecting Democracy can be a dirty business.

[Rhiannon]

[Don]

Pussy eater.

[SF-Dano]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eYA9Npm ... ather=True

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFs ... ather=True

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6cLa4xo ... ather=True

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FHHZ-BO ... ather=True

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHoVuFlr ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLGO6gy3 ... ather=True

[whirlwind]

9/11 happened cause of morons from both sides.

No, it didn't. It happened because a faction of Islam, a faction that represents the overwhelming vast majority of the rest of its followers (but don't have the balls or means to commit such an act), intentionally killed innocent human beings. I know highly educated rank and file nurses, doctors and other professionals that didn't express a fucking ounce of sympathy for the events of that day, and they're the very upper echelon of the educated Muslims in this country! The argument by these nutballs is that we and the Jews do the same thing. But there's a difference in that we're often responsible for collateral damage, but they (Muslims) focus on collateral damage. We've certainly had lapses in judgment and sloppy operations, but we have never tried to exterminate an entire nation, like they would. If it were up to them, we'd be instantaneously fucking GONE! I think once, just fucking once, we should show them what we could do if we really wanted to ... perhaps just make some shit-hole like Somalia disappear ... poof ... GONE! Say hello to Allah for us, folks. And maybe, but I highly doubt it, they'll realize that we try to be as responsible as reasonably possible with the overwhelming power that we possess.

[Behshad]

To be fair, Mohammad Rezā Shāh Pahlavi was from all accounts a very bad person, and by backing him for so long and overlooking his transgressions we did ourselves no favors when his opposition gained the upper hand.

Wrong.
He did care about his country. I rather have a " dictator" that cares about his people and country and looks out for them than any leader that brags about freedom and (mis)uses peoples trust .

The Shah, was the security in that region! Carter shouldve supported him 100% and fought these muslim extremists and we would have had a lot less problems in that region.

[StevePerryHair]

To be fair, Mohammad Rezā Shāh Pahlavi was from all accounts a very bad person, and by backing him for so long and overlooking his transgressions we did ourselves no favors when those he oppressed gained the upper hand.

He was a typical dictator. He killed or arrested anyone who he thought was a threat. That's what dictators do, because when they don't, they get overthrown. That is how those governments work, and why we are so LUCKY to live in the USA remember? I STILL think he was better than Khomeini and what he did to that country. The shah didn't suppress ALL people from expressing themselves. Khomeini lied to the people at that time. He promised the youth he would rid Iran of all the evil that the shah imposed on them. And look what happened! A wolf in sheeps clothing! He was WORSE! The people thought it was a joke when he put out the new "religious" laws after that revolution ended in the 70's. They trusted the wrong person. The shah was not perfect, and no it was no democracy, but they had basic human rights that are now LACKING because we turned our backs. and I think that the shah would have worked with the US to maybe change some of his ways. He was very close to or President at the time. I learned a LOT from the special I watched. They aired it on NBC and then about 2 weeks later is when the "mini-revolution" broke out, so I watched all the news coverage at that time too.

The same can be said of Saddam. He created a secular state that was actually more western than middle eastern in style. Of course, he used chemical weapons on dissidents and committed other atrocities but all was over looked by us until Kuwait happened.

Protecting Democracy can be a dirty business.

He STILL had religious leaders involved in the government though. And yes, he did do those things. And yes, amazing how no one cares until there is a vested interest. Kind of sounds a little like the U.S. and World War II! We're good at that! We KNEW Jews were being killed. But that was a "European problem". But I guess that was ancient history.

I also love how we armed Saddam with weapons to use against Iran. That's another fave of mine. He is our "friend" one decade, and our enemy another... it's ALL about politics. They try to say it's because the U. S cares, but it's hard to see that when there are so many instances where they don't, but only do when it's to their benefit. I think on the outside looking in, that makes us not look as nice as we think we are. I don't hate being an American. I am thankful everyday I was born here. You don't think those people would LOVE to have a government like ours? Just because they don't' like our policies, doesn't mean they don't wish they WERE us.

[S2M]

Let's get a British citizen in here to describe what it is like when the muslims take over a country like cockroaches....anyone?

[RedWingFan]

9/11 happened cause of morons from both sides.

9/11 happened for the same reason as the "Musselman" barbary pirates were raiding our ships in the 1700's. Unless you want to try to blame that on those morons John Adams and Thomas Jefferson.

In the book ''Victory in Tripoli,'' Joshua London writes about the Muslim Barbary pirates. They attacked American shipping vessels in the 18th century, often boarding ships and enslaving crewmembers. Thomas Jefferson, then U.S. ambassador to France, and John Adams, then ambassador to Britain, visited the resident ambassador from Tripoli (modern-day Libya) in London to negotiate a treaty to protect American ships from Barbary pirates. Why, asked Adams and Jefferson, is your government so hostile to the fledgling United States of America? After all, we have no quarrel with you, nor you with us.

The Tripolitan ambassador told them – as reported to the Continental Congress – ''that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman [Muslim] who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise."

[Behshad]

9/11 happened cause of morons from both sides.

9/11 happened for the same reason as the "Musselman" barbary pirates were raiding our ships in the 1700's. Unless you want to try to blame that on those morons John Adams and Thomas Jefferson.

In the book ''Victory in Tripoli,'' Joshua London writes about the Muslim Barbary pirates. They attacked American shipping vessels in the 18th century, often boarding ships and enslaving crewmembers. Thomas Jefferson, then U.S. ambassador to France, and John Adams, then ambassador to Britain, visited the resident ambassador from Tripoli (modern-day Libya) in London to negotiate a treaty to protect American ships from Barbary pirates. Why, asked Adams and Jefferson, is your government so hostile to the fledgling United States of America? After all, we have no quarrel with you, nor you with us.

The Tripolitan ambassador told them – as reported to the Continental Congress – ''that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman [Muslim] who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise."

[RedWingFan]

9/11 happened cause of morons from both sides.

9/11 happened for the same reason as the "Musselman" barbary pirates were raiding our ships in the 1700's. Unless you want to try to blame that on those morons John Adams and Thomas Jefferson.

In the book ''Victory in Tripoli,'' Joshua London writes about the Muslim Barbary pirates. They attacked American shipping vessels in the 18th century, often boarding ships and enslaving crewmembers. Thomas Jefferson, then U.S. ambassador to France, and John Adams, then ambassador to Britain, visited the resident ambassador from Tripoli (modern-day Libya) in London to negotiate a treaty to protect American ships from Barbary pirates. Why, asked Adams and Jefferson, is your government so hostile to the fledgling United States of America? After all, we have no quarrel with you, nor you with us.

The Tripolitan ambassador told them – as reported to the Continental Congress – ''that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman [Muslim] who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise."

Didn't know there was a deadline to join a topic. Brilliant reply though. So were those morons Adams and Jefferson to blame for US ships getting attacked?

[Behshad]

Its not the religion that kills people,, its morons who use it as an excuse to kill people.

Somehow I have a feeling you still wont get my point....

And to harken back to last weeks debate..."It's not the guns that kill people,, it's morons who use them as an excuse to kill people.

Somehow I have a feeling you won't get my point...

Very simple : You can not kill a person using JUST religion. You can kill a person using a gun.

Now a mad man with a gun Can kill people with or without religion.
So no matter how you look at it, chances of a person getting killed by religion ONLY and without GUN, are a lot lower than a person getting killed by a GUN and without religion,

Somehow I have a feeling you won't get my point...

[conversationpc]

Very simple : You can not kill a person using JUST religion. You can kill a person using a gun.

You certainly can't kill them physically but you can kill them spiritually and intellectually.

[Behshad]

Very simple : You can not kill a person using JUST religion. You can kill a person using a gun.

You certainly can't kill them physically but you can kill them spiritually and intellectually.

Damn right,, but we were talkin about terrorist attacks and all muslims wanting to kill all non-muslims

[RedWingFan]

Very simple : You can not kill a person using JUST religion. You can kill a person using a gun.

I can go to my shed out back and get five tools and kill a man tonight, none of them are a gun.

How many stones could you dig up on the way to kill someone in the name of religion?

[Behshad]

Very simple : You can not kill a person using JUST religion. You can kill a person using a gun.

I can go to my shed out back and get five tools and kill a man tonight, none of them are a gun.

Yup, you can, and I wouldnt put it past you,
But any and all those tools were primarily made for OTHER purposes than KILLING. a Gun was made for killing, harming.(people/animals)
Plus , if the psycho in Arizona had walked in and started use his 5 tools from his shed, I dont think he could have cause the same kind of damage, before taken down.

[whirlwind]

To be fair, Mohammad Rezā Shāh Pahlavi was from all accounts a very bad person, and by backing him for so long and overlooking his transgressions we did ourselves no favors when his opposition gained the upper hand.

Wrong.
He did care about his country. I rather have a " dictator" that cares about his people and country and looks out for them than any leader that brags about freedom and (mis)uses peoples trust .

The Shah, was the security in that region! Carter shouldve supported him 100% and fought these muslim extremists and we would have had a lot less problems in that region.

Holy fuck...this is the big one Elizabeth!... I'm comin' to meet ya...

That's funny as hell and so appropriate.

[whirlwind]

Very simple : You can not kill a person using JUST religion. You can kill a person using a gun.

I can go to my shed out back and get five tools and kill a man tonight, none of them are a gun.

How many stones could you dig up on the way to kill someone in the name of religion?

You should be able to do it with a prayer.

[Behshad]

Well seems like Beavis & Butthead are gonna redirect this to something we all discussed 2 weeks ago.

[RedWingFan]

Well seems like Beavis & Butthead are gonna redirect this to something we all discussed 2 weeks ago.

Well you wouldn't answer my question asking if Adams and Jefferson were as responsible for Muslim attacks as YOU CLAIM the United States is for 9/11.