President Barack Obama - Term 1 and 2 Thread

[Lula]

you might not have made it out alive win or lose tho! }:C))

(hey lula... can you send selanne a quick note? no more turnovers please. thanks! }:C))

road trip for tonight's game!! my brother-in-law works for osh and has access to their box at the tank..... shoulda planned better!

come on tree! WIN!! i'd keep it on the down low

[treetopovskaya]

Tree...could you please quote from the bottom so everyone doesn't have to skip up and down to see what you said that is being responded too? It would make the conversation flow much better if you could.

ok fine. }:C)

[Blueskies]

the purpose of "harsh interrogation/torture" is not retetribution/punishment/intimidation but to get info out of someone. there is a difference. if we started cutting peoples heads off... then i would have a prob. it's not the same.

what do you think we torture ppl for? let me ask you that.

there is a difference between us & our "enemies" we "torture" for a better good... they... just cut off your head. is that simple enough for you?

we should be thankin our gov for keeping us safe & pray to god they continue.

i don't see people hunting cows & pigs for food.

our gov's job is to keep us safe. what is obama going to do when we're attacked again... & it will happen don't fool yourselves. how is he going to get info out of someone in us custody who may know something? he banned all other forms of harsher interagations. don't you guys believe that our gov tried other means of getting info before having to use harsher methods? what if obama runs out of options? he has a guy in us custody... but can't get him to talk... planes are again hijacked & cities attacked & thousands are killed... obama would be f'ed.

thousands of innocent people killed but at least no terrorist were harmed.

i should have explained better. i never meant if anyone would be able to do it... with their own hands. hehehee. no way could i hurt someone... i don't even kill bugs... nothing dies around me... except house plants... & fish. that's why i no longer ever have fish as pets. };C)

for me i find it selfish for someone to let their beliefs & feelings get in the way of our gov doing what it takes to keep people safe & out of harms way. maybe my thoughts & feelings would be different pre-911. lots of heroes (the brave men & women who put their lives on the line each day to keep us safe) died that day... my heart still breaks for those who attended many funerals for people they lost that day.

obama is doing the right thing... saying he wants no investigation. hope he doesn't flip flop like he did last week. it bothers me that we have a prez who doesn't think much of his own country. that's how it seems. hopefully nothing happens on his watch... he's not going to know what to do. if we get someone in custody who knows something just how will we get them to talk? offer tea & cake? maybe obama can talk them into submission. }:CPP

Of course it is within a person's power to allegedly torture or interrogate someone.

You are, unless you have some outstanding medical or physical condition, capable of torture, whether it be mental or physical. It is within your power to do so; you simply refuse to facilitate it.

not within my power to torture another human being. it is quite simply not who i am. not in my belief system, not in my psyche. interrogate- sure. as a middle school teacher it's part of my job, lol.

So what your saying is, you believe in using torture methods only if someone else does the dirty work for you.

If you fully support a practice and thereby authorize it then your hands are just as dirty as the ones who are instructed to carry it out.

So now you are saying out of sight out of mind. As long as you don't see it then it's ok? How is that a logical argument to what I said? It just goes to my point even further. Someone is doing the slaughter and if you support it to be done by purchasing and consuming the "cows and pigs" then your hands are bloody as well.....same as they are when you condone torture even if it's not directly done by your own hand...if you condone and support the practice then you have your hands in it.

There are ways to interrogate with intelligence rather than brute force and torture.
I'll also restate something I said previously in this thread....
If you resort to the same kinds of tactics as your enemies then you are no better then they are and therefore negate your justification for fighting against them in the first place. In other words...we supposedly went to war with people who do and did barbaric things....like the 9/11 terror attacks and things done to their own people, like in Saddam's case...or in possibly having weapons of mass destruction to do barbaric acts ( maybe some WMDs like we ourselves have) ...all reasons that were USED as a justification for going to war....if we then turn around and do things that are just as barbaric then we negate our justification....that's the problem when using torture tactics....we lose respect and it makes us no better...we lose our argument of justification for fighting in the first place.

Look at it this way...wasn't Mike Tyson condemned for biting Holyfield's ear? Wasn't that considered "dirty" fighting tactics and viewed as a weakness for having to resort to that..for being that low down....because Tyson may have felt he was losing and then lost it completely? Did Holyfield then turn around and do something the same like bite him back in retaliation? Who won? There are rules in boxing...we have used rules in war. Just because our enemies don't adhere to rules doesn't mean we shouldn't. We lose our justification..we lose our standing..and, imo , we will ultimately lose in the end if we do.

"We torture for the better good" ???? You answered too quickly and obviously did not take anything I said into account...your response shows that you don't want to take what anyone else is saying into consideration at all and will only stubbornly stick to what you think ...so why come in to even discuss the issue if your not willing to "discuss" and just cop out with "our government protects us"? So we should just agree with everything our government does and blindly follow...no dissenting opinions. Where would this country be without disagreement and dissent allowed? Sounds like communism to me. You won't come back with a reasonable defense of your stance.... I explained my stance in several ways...wasn't the Tyson analogy simple enough for you?

Torture can be used for all of the purposes you stated..not only to get info out. I will also point out that cutting someone's head off is not torture in and of itself...it's what may be done leading to that action...once the head is cut off then the person can't be tortured..dead is dead....but, ok..if thats what you want to use as an argument: Cutting heads off, waterboarding, etc...they are barbaric acts that any civilized nation should not participate in doing....we call them uncivilized....can we remain "civilized" if we resort to the same practice's? To put it as simply as can be...two wrongs don't make a right.

[Blueskies]

Tree...could you please quote from the bottom so everyone doesn't have to skip up and down to see what you said that is being responded too? It would make the conversation flow much better if you could.

ok fine. }:C)

[Eric]

seems to be stories to contradict stories. some say it works, some say it doesn't. i'm on the "doesn't work" side. i would rather err on the side of caution. it is not a good thing for the u.s. to have blood on her hands, not as we hold ourselves as a pillar of morality amongst nations.

After pages of discussion, I definitely respect your opinion. I DO think it saved lives, but I understand if you don't want to even go down that road. And by the way..if I were President I couldn't order it....and probably couldn't execute if ordered to do it...but I want people in positions that are willing to do it if it saves life, because I don't want to feel like I did on 9-11 again. How's that for a hypocrite!?

[treetopovskaya]

seems to be stories to contradict stories. some say it works, some say it doesn't. i'm on the "doesn't work" side. i would rather err on the side of caution. it is not a good thing for the u.s. to have blood on her hands, not as we hold ourselves as a pillar of morality amongst nations.

After pages of discussion, I definitely respect your opinion. I DO think it saved lives, but I understand if you don't want to even go down that road. And by the way..if I were President I couldn't order it....and probably couldn't execute if ordered to do it...but I want people in positions that are willing to do it if it saves life, because I don't want to feel like I did on 9-11 again. How's that for a hypocrite!?

there isn't a person here who wouldn't have gone through any means it took to wipe that from our history. if they deny it then they are not being honest.

[G.I.Jim]

Because Bush issued an executive order and made it legal, reversing Ford and Clinton's ban on CIA assasinations.
In this case, he changed the law.

Dude...you got a nice taco!

GI Jim,
While those cold and lonely nights deployed overseas are enough to turn any man into a charter member of the Linda Ronstadt fan club, regretfully, I will have to reject this forward advance to be your barracks butt soldier.
I’ve heard of people changing after witnessing the horrors of war, but who knew it included an insatiable desire to scarf on a fellow leatherneck’s frank and beans?
Your story is an inspiration to the thousands of amputee victims popping wheelies at Walter Reed who think their life sucks royal ass.
Not to pull rank, but in the future, kindly refrain from including me in your Jim Nabors showerroom fuck fantasies.
Thanks

You know what? I was chuckling along with you until I got to this paragraph. How the hell can you look in the mirror when you get up in the morning fucker? I try to cut up with you and joke around, and you throw up amputees popping wheelies at Walter Reed? That's some real humor there...You're fucked in the head, and are the lowest form of fucking life on this planet! Go fuck yourself.

[Rockindeano]

Jim, relax- TNC is making light that the Vets at Walter Reed have miserable lives, and I am assuming because the last president basically turned his back on them and let WR go to Hell. Might as well have shipped our decorated combat troops to Mexico- the care would have been far superior to what they received at WR. Great way to treat the men who went and fought for the USA eh Mr Bush?

What a total piece of shit. Enjoy Hell asshole.

[Blueskies]

seems to be stories to contradict stories. some say it works, some say it doesn't. i'm on the "doesn't work" side. i would rather err on the side of caution. it is not a good thing for the u.s. to have blood on her hands, not as we hold ourselves as a pillar of morality amongst nations.

After pages of discussion, I definitely respect your opinion. I DO think it saved lives, but I understand if you don't want to even go down that road. And by the way..if I were President I couldn't order it....and probably couldn't execute if ordered to do it...but I want people in positions that are willing to do it if it saves life, because I don't want to feel like I did on 9-11 again. How's that for a hypocrite!?

there isn't a person here who wouldn't have gone through any means it took to wipe that from our history. if they deny it then they are not being honest.

I am being honest with you...I would not use any means necessary..that only cries out desperation in possibly being overpowered and defeated. Just like Tyson did in the analogy I mentioned..and also why people like the 9/11 terrorists resort to barbarism...they are uncivilized acts of desperation when they are overwhelmed with failure and defeat.....only barbaric people that are at a loss to come up with any other means to try to get what they want have to resort to "any means necessary". We were not "defeated" on 9/11 so we didn't have to..still don't have to resort to "any means necessary" to win in the end.

Like I said...if Holyfield did the same would he have won in the end?..would he have come out of the fight with more or less respect then Tyson? Wouldn't he then be viewed as being on the same level as Tyson and lost respect too if he did the same in return or worse? See...that's what has happened to us when others around the world view US policy...the differences that are seen between what we say and what we do. How we put ourselves up as an example for others to follow. We have to practice what we preach and not resort to the same barbarism as our enemies.

We have to fight by our moral convictions or not fight at all...when we lose our convictions which we use as justifications we not only lose our standing...any respect we have...we also show our enemies that we have to resort to acts of desperation as well...which shows weakness. Something may be gained momentarily by resorting to " any" means but in the long run we will have lost much more then we gained...just like the terrorists will lose in the end by their tactics. We have to go with our convictions and hold to them...we have to use our heads and not just our fists.

[Lula]

seems to be stories to contradict stories. some say it works, some say it doesn't. i'm on the "doesn't work" side. i would rather err on the side of caution. it is not a good thing for the u.s. to have blood on her hands, not as we hold ourselves as a pillar of morality amongst nations.

After pages of discussion, I definitely respect your opinion. I DO think it saved lives, but I understand if you don't want to even go down that road. And by the way..if I were President I couldn't order it....and probably couldn't execute if ordered to do it...but I want people in positions that are willing to do it if it saves life, because I don't want to feel like I did on 9-11 again. How's that for a hypocrite!?

thank you eric, very cool of you to say. i don't see a hypocrite, you're being honest.

[treetopovskaya]

seems to be stories to contradict stories. some say it works, some say it doesn't. i'm on the "doesn't work" side. i would rather err on the side of caution. it is not a good thing for the u.s. to have blood on her hands, not as we hold ourselves as a pillar of morality amongst nations.

After pages of discussion, I definitely respect your opinion. I DO think it saved lives, but I understand if you don't want to even go down that road. And by the way..if I were President I couldn't order it....and probably couldn't execute if ordered to do it...but I want people in positions that are willing to do it if it saves life, because I don't want to feel like I did on 9-11 again. How's that for a hypocrite!?

there isn't a person here who wouldn't have gone through any means it took to wipe that from our history. if they deny it then they are not being honest.

I am being honest with you...I would not use any means necessary..that only cries out desperation in possibly being overpowered and defeated. Just like Tyson did in the analogy I mentioned..and also why people like the 9/11 terrorists resort to barbarism...they are uncivilized acts of desperation when they are overwhelmed with failure and defeat.....only barbaric people that are at a loss to come up with any other means to try to get what they want have to resort to "any means necessary". We were not "defeated" on 9/11 so we didn't have to..still don't have to resort to "any means necessary" to win in the end.

Like I said...if Holyfield did the same would he have won in the end?..would he have come out of the fight with more or less respect then Tyson? Wouldn't he then be viewed as being on the same level as Tyson and lost respect too if he did the same in return or worse? See...that's what has happened to us when others around the world view US policy...the differences that are seen between what we say and what we do. How we put ourselves up as an example for others to follow. We have to practice what we preach and not resort to the same barbarism as our enemies.

We have to fight by our moral convictions or not fight at all...when we lose our convictions which we use as justifications we not only lose our standing...any respect we have...we also show our enemies that we have to resort to acts of desperation as well...which shows weakness. Something may be gained momentarily by resorting to " any" means but in the long run we will have lost much more then we gained...just like the terrorists will lose in the end by their tactics. We have to go with our convictions and hold to them...we have to use our heads and not just our fists.

so in your mind we shouldn't punish criminals because two wrongs don't make a right? so the guy who shot & murdered that women he met on craig's list... we shouldn't put him away or worse if he's found gulity because hey... 2 wrongs don't make a right.

your mike tyson/holyfield analogy makes no sense really. are you saying that america uses harsh means of interrogation because our enemies do more & worse? that if we didn't they would stop cutting off heads or never would have in the first place?

i guess i really don't give a poop if our gov might do something questionable if it's a last effort & saves innocent people. if 911 could have been stopped i wouldn't care much if they had to dunk some heads into water. a child crying because they lost a parent or both... or a terrorist having bad dreams... hmm... i would give that child back their childhood. fuck the terrorist... they can...

rot in hell.

[RedWingFan]

it bothers me that we have a prez who doesn't think much of his own country. that's how it seems.

Quote please?

A picture is worth a thousand words!!!!

<---- see av.

[The_Noble_Cause]

it bothers me that we have a prez who doesn't think much of his own country. that's how it seems.

Quote please?

A picture is worth a thousand words!!!!

<---- see av.

It was the national anthem, not the pledge of allegiance.
At games I usually only stand up too.
Also, despite your best efforts to "other-fy" the first black president, photos do exist of Obama having his hand on his heart.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/anthem.asp

Try again race-baiting neocon scum.

[RedWingFan]

it bothers me that we have a prez who doesn't think much of his own country. that's how it seems.

Quote please?

A picture is worth a thousand words!!!!

<---- see av.

It was the national anthem, not the pledge of allegiance.
At games I usually only stand up too.

Can't say I'm exactly shocked!!!

Try again race-baiting neocon scum.

Yeah, I'm race-baiting. Why don't you throw in "sexist" in there while your at it. The photo has a woman with her hand over her heart not to mention a man who's hispanic like myself. Typical lib, name calling know nothing

[Rockindeano]

it bothers me that we have a prez who doesn't think much of his own country. that's how it seems.

Quote please?

A picture is worth a thousand words!!!!

<---- see av.

Maybe the worst and lamest post I have ever seen here.

Come on, you cannot be serious?

Hillary and Richardson are only doing it because they are/were more seasoned politicos and know how to mug for a camera better than candidate(young too), Obama.

I never put my hand over my heart. I am usually scratching my nuts or picking my ass during the National Anthem or POA.

[RedWingFan]

it bothers me that we have a prez who doesn't think much of his own country. that's how it seems.

Quote please?

A picture is worth a thousand words!!!!

<---- see av.

Maybe the worst and lamest post I have ever seen here.

Come on, you cannot be serious?

Hillary and Richardson are only doing it because they are/were more seasoned politicos and know how to mug for a camera better than candidate(young too), Obama.

I never put my hand over my heart. I am usually scratching my nuts or picking my ass during the National Anthem or POA.

Further evidence. Thanks!!!
Nice shot of Luongo in your sig. Isn't that pic taken as the winning goal was going in his net in that multiple OT game in last years playoffs? Sure hope he pays attention this year!!! That ADD's a bitch for a goaltender!!:lol:

[donnaplease]

Hillary and Richardson are only doing it because they are/were more seasoned politicos and know how to mug for a camera better than candidate(young too), Obama.

Dean, my daughter is 8 years old and even she knows to put her hand over her heart for the SSB and POA. I don't buy your excuse at all... It's about respect, plain and simple. As the top leader in the land, he should be setting the example, not looking to more seasoned politicos to show him what to do. If the democrats/liberals want BO to be a role model, he needs to start acting like one. He didn't wear the flag lapel pin; it was an act of rebellion if you ask me, but not really a huge deal. IDK what his motives were here, but it doesn't look good. He's the commander-in-chief, for heaven's sake!

[RedWingFan]

Hillary and Richardson are only doing it because they are/were more seasoned politicos and know how to mug for a camera better than candidate(young too), Obama.

Dean, my daughter is 8 years old and even she knows to put her hand over her heart for the SSB and POA. I don't buy your excuse at all... It's about respect, plain and simple.

Did she grow up with Obama and sit in Rev. Wright's "G*d D**n America" church for 20 years?

[donnaplease]

I never put my hand over my heart. I am usually scratching my nuts or picking my ass during the National Anthem or POA.

As one who's seen your ass (sharpie message and all!)... this part of your post I can understand!

[Rockindeano]

Hillary and Richardson are only doing it because they are/were more seasoned politicos and know how to mug for a camera better than candidate(young too), Obama.

Dean, my daughter is 8 years old and even she knows to put her hand over her heart for the SSB and POA. I don't buy your excuse at all... It's about respect, plain and simple. As the top leader in the land, he should be setting the example, not looking to more seasoned politicos to show him what to do. If the democrats/liberals want BO to be a role model, he needs to start acting like one. He didn't wear the flag lapel pin; it was an act of rebellion if you ask me, but not really a huge deal. IDK what his motives were here, but it doesn't look good. He's the commander-in-chief, for heaven's sake!

The National Anthem- that was the song involved with that picture. I never, and I was in the military, put my hand over my heart when that song plays. Did you or Travis do it when Schon played it in Maryland?

Also, the flag lapel. You cons love that fuckin pin don't you? I guess that makes a person more American somehow. I don't give a shit if the President wears a flag lapel or not, I want him to read security briefings. How the Hell is not wearing a pin being rebellious?

You do know that picture was taken about 2 years ago, when he was a junior senator on the stump right?

[donnaplease]

Hillary and Richardson are only doing it because they are/were more seasoned politicos and know how to mug for a camera better than candidate(young too), Obama.

Dean, my daughter is 8 years old and even she knows to put her hand over her heart for the SSB and POA. I don't buy your excuse at all... It's about respect, plain and simple.

Did she grow up with Obama and sit in Rev. Wright's "G*d D**n America" church for 20 years?

Ummm.... no. She loves her country, and even at 8 loves learning about American history. She's always asking about who in the family was in what branch of the military and which wars they fought in. She was big-time interested in the election last fall. It's cute.

[RedWingFan]

Hillary and Richardson are only doing it because they are/were more seasoned politicos and know how to mug for a camera better than candidate(young too), Obama.

Dean, my daughter is 8 years old and even she knows to put her hand over her heart for the SSB and POA. I don't buy your excuse at all... It's about respect, plain and simple.

Did she grow up with Obama and sit in Rev. Wright's "G*d D**n America" church for 20 years?

Ummm.... no.

What a coincidence because neither did Richardson or Hillary! Right Dean?

[Rockindeano]

Hillary and Richardson are only doing it because they are/were more seasoned politicos and know how to mug for a camera better than candidate(young too), Obama.

Dean, my daughter is 8 years old and even she knows to put her hand over her heart for the SSB and POA. I don't buy your excuse at all... It's about respect, plain and simple.

Did she grow up with Obama and sit in Rev. Wright's "G*d D**n America" church for 20 years?

Ummm.... no. She loves her country, and even at 8 loves learning about American history. She's always asking about who in the family was in what branch of the military and which wars they fought in. She was big-time interested in the election last fall. It's cute.

That's great about your little girl. Civics are a lost love amongst kids today.

Now, who would she have voted for? I seem to recall mom saying that there was no way Obama would win Virginia, but he did.

[donnaplease]

Hillary and Richardson are only doing it because they are/were more seasoned politicos and know how to mug for a camera better than candidate(young too), Obama.

Dean, my daughter is 8 years old and even she knows to put her hand over her heart for the SSB and POA. I don't buy your excuse at all... It's about respect, plain and simple. As the top leader in the land, he should be setting the example, not looking to more seasoned politicos to show him what to do. If the democrats/liberals want BO to be a role model, he needs to start acting like one. He didn't wear the flag lapel pin; it was an act of rebellion if you ask me, but not really a huge deal. IDK what his motives were here, but it doesn't look good. He's the commander-in-chief, for heaven's sake!

The National Anthem- that was the song involved with that picture. I never, and I was in the military, put my hand over my heart when that song plays. Did you or Travis do it when Schon played it in Maryland?

Also, the flag lapel. You cons love that fuckin pin don't you? I guess that makes a person more American somehow. I don't give a shit if the President wears a flag lapel or not, I want him to read security briefings. How the Hell is not wearing a pin being rebellious?

You do know that picture was taken about 2 years ago, when he was a junior senator on the stump right?

To the best of my recollection, I put my hand over my heart each time the SSB is played. IDK if I did in Maryland, but I do specifically remember doing it when they played it in Leesburg. It was incredible that day... Neal was great and the skydivers jumping out the planes with the flag...Very moving.

Regarding the lapel pin, if you read above I said it wasn't really a big deal whether he wore it or not. It would be the reason he didn't wear it that would be important to me. I don't recall specifics, but some response he gave about it led me to believe he was doing it 'just because', and at the time it seemed to me that he was trying to stir people up. JMO.

No, I didn't know when the pic was taken, nor do I care. If he's man enough to be on the stump, he should follow standard protocol (which obviously it is, seeing as how the other 3 people on the stage knew to do it).

It's no fun having to defend 'your guy' all the time, is it?

[S2M]

My advice: Don't bother voting. Your vote doesn't matter other than giving you some personal satisfaction that you didn't vote for the 'other jerk'.....I don't vote anymore. After '00 and '04 can you blame me?

Electoral college is the biggest injustice other than taxes that this country pushes on it's citizens.....

[donnaplease]

Hillary and Richardson are only doing it because they are/were more seasoned politicos and know how to mug for a camera better than candidate(young too), Obama.

Dean, my daughter is 8 years old and even she knows to put her hand over her heart for the SSB and POA. I don't buy your excuse at all... It's about respect, plain and simple.

Did she grow up with Obama and sit in Rev. Wright's "G*d D**n America" church for 20 years?

Ummm.... no. She loves her country, and even at 8 loves learning about American history. She's always asking about who in the family was in what branch of the military and which wars they fought in. She was big-time interested in the election last fall. It's cute.

That's great about your little girl. Civics are a lost love amongst kids today.

Now, who would she have voted for? I seem to recall mom saying that there was no way Obama would win Virginia, but he did.

IDK who she would've voted for. She was learning a lot about MLK and Rosa Parks not long ago, and with an 8 year old's mentality she might've tied all that in together. She's a great kid, though, so I'd like to think she'd listen to her momma about who the better candidate was! (Actually, it was more about the lesser of the 2 evils to me, cause I didn't think either candidate was a dream-choice).

As to Virginia, you got me there. How disappointing. But now we've got what could be an even more ominous situation... Terry McAuliffe (?sp) running for governor!!! If that happens, I'm moving back to San Diego... I can't stand that goober!!!

[donnaplease]

My advice: Don't bother voting. Your vote doesn't matter other than giving you some personal satisfaction that you didn't vote for the 'other jerk'.....I don't vote anymore. After '00 and '04 can you blame me?

Electoral college is the biggest injustice other than taxes that this country pushes on it's citizens.....

Honey, I voted for Ross Perot... twice! Then twice for GWB. I'm sure to some that's the most laughable thing conceivable, but I voted for who felt right to me. Get out there and vote. If for no other reason than to have something to bitch about on a message board!

[Lula]

it is not a requirement to place your hand over your heart for the ssb like it is for the pledge. my father was in the navy, wwII, when the ssb came on he quietly stood with his hat in his hand. that is proof enough for me!

[S2M]

In this day and age patriotism=nationalism....

[donnaplease]

it is not a requirement to place your hand over your heart for the ssb like it is for the pledge. my father was in the navy, wwII, when the ssb came on he quietly stood with his hat in his hand. that is proof enough for me!

You're right, it's not required. But it is socially acceptable and more often than not you see it these days, at least in my experience. We live in 2 totally different worlds, though, Lu. You're the city mouse and I'm the country mouse...