President Barack Obama - Term 1 and 2 Thread

General Intelligent Discussion & One Thread About That Buttknuckle

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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:32 am

tupchurch wrote:Can I back it up? I simply got this fact from watching the news and reading about it in the paper.

Well shut my mouth, I guess that clinches it. :roll:
Bottom line: Fannie and Freddie came late to the sub-prime party and were following trends set by Wall Street.
As a point of fact, when Lehman Bros.' CEO was grilled about Fannie and Freddie's role in this mess by Congress he responded: "de minimus."

tupchurch wrote:As far as my socialist comment goes, I say that because of his constant redistribution of wealth. And Mr Obama talks about that all the time.

"Redistributing wealth" is what our tax system effectively does.
Currently, Obama's top marginal tax rate is less than what it was under Reagan's first term, as well as the ENTIRE terms of Ike and Nixon.
Were they socialist too?
Like I thought, you're just parroting slogans.
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Postby tupchurch » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:56 am

Okay,

You will not change my mind just like I will not change yours. So this is my last comment on the subject. You said I am parroting slogans. No, I just have common sense.

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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:11 am

tupchurch wrote:Okay, You will not change my mind just like I will not change yours. So this is my last comment on the subject.[/

I’m not interested in winning over hearts and minds.
However, if you choose to enter the political fray, at least be prepared to back it up.

tupchurch wrote:You said I am parroting slogans. No, I just have common sense.
Terry

Is that anything like George Bush’s famous gut-instinct? :roll:
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:18 am

Fact Finder wrote:Typical lib speak, that immaterial bit. Try that line out on India would ya. They bitchslapped O via Hilliary just this week on Globull Warming. A billion Indians must be immaterial too eh?


As far as the question is concerned, it is immaterial.
Eric asked for a list of issues Obama was addressing.
Global Warming is one of those.
Whether or not you guys think it is a backdoor attempt to bring about the New World Order is meaningless.
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Postby Eric » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:32 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Obama and Biden have accepted responsibility plenty of times.
As recently as last week Obama said: "I love these folks who helped[b] get us in this mess and then suddenly say, 'Well, this is Obama's economy.' That's fine. Give it to me!"[/b]
Biden also recently commented: "The truth is, there was a misreading of [b]just how bad an economy we inherited. Now, that doesn't -- I'm not -- it's now our responsibility."[/b]
?



How is that accepting responsibility, when the blame is still there?
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:40 am

Eric wrote:How is that accepting responsibility, when the blame is still there?

There is a difference between accountability and collective amnesia.
It would not only be politically foolish not to bring up Bush every chance they get, it would also be economically unwise.
Forgetting the hard-learned lessons of the past is exactly why we're in this current mess.
Considering you had no problems with the Clinton finger pointing that went on post-911, eight months into Bush's term, I'm sure you'll agree. :wink: :D
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Postby Eric » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:15 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Eric wrote:How is that accepting responsibility, when the blame is still there?

There is a difference between accountability and collective amnesia.
It would not only be politically foolish not to bring up Bush every chance they get, it would also be economically unwise.
Forgetting the hard-learned lessons of the past is exactly why we're in this current mess.
Considering you had no problems with the Clinton finger pointing that went on post-911, eight months into Bush's term, I'm sure you'll agree. :wink: :D


Except Bush didn't come in and fuck up everything causing 9-11. Obama is turning a recession into a depression.
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:02 am

Eric wrote:Except Bush didn't come in and fuck up everything causing 9-11. Obama is turning a recession into a depression.

Actually, there’s as much proof that Bush’s negligence enabled the greatest attack on domestic soil as there is of Obama being at fault for this recession.
In fact, there’s much more damning evidence against Bush on that score.
But that's a separate kettle of fish...
Some economists have made the case that the stimulus, as flawed as it was, may be helping to keep us from going over the cliff.
I don’t think any economist thought this would be a typical V-shaped recession.

Of course, as you know perfectly well, your argument is shit...
According to you, Obama’s election emboldened North Korea.
Fact Finder went so far as to make the case that Obama’s actions gave the Somali pirates the go-ahead to start seizing ships.
Even the moldy ghost of Carter was dug up to explain the recent collapse of the housing industry.
So you seem to be pretty ambidextrous with your finger pointing, except when, of course, it’s a Republican in the crosshairs of history.
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Postby Eric » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:23 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
Eric wrote:Except Bush didn't come in and fuck up everything causing 9-11. Obama is turning a recession into a depression.

Actually, there’s as much proof that Bush’s negligence enabled the greatest attack on domestic soil as there is of Obama being at fault for this recession.
In fact, there’s much more damning evidence against Bush on that score.
But that's a separate kettle of fish...
Some economists have made the case that the stimulus, as flawed as it was, may be helping to keep us from going over the cliff.
I don’t think any economist thought this would be a typical V-shaped recession.

Of course, as you know perfectly well, your argument is shit...
According to you, Obama’s election emboldened North Korea.
Fact Finder went so far as to make the case that Obama’s actions gave the Somali pirates the go-ahead to start seizing ships.
Even the moldy ghost of Carter was dug up to explain the recent collapse of the housing industry.
So you seem to be pretty ambidextrous with your finger pointing, except when, of course, it’s a Republican in the crosshairs of history.


I didn't say Obama's election emboldened N.Korea...I don't like they way we've handled them for a LONG time. I'm concerned that Iran sees us a pushover now though...CONCERNED...I don't know.

Had W locked down airports and attacked the Taliban in Afganistan 6 months into office because of a vague memo about the potential of planes being used to attack us....this country would have demanded impeachment, including me by the way. 9-11 could not have been envisioned in my opinion. I do wish Clinton and W had taken Al Queda's continuing attacks on our interests more seriously, but when W finally did people didn't like that either.

I think W and gang deserve their share of blame.....but its Obama's economy now, and things aint better, they are worse....far worse.
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Postby Lula » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:13 am

Eric wrote:Had W locked down airports and attacked the Taliban in Afganistan 6 months into office because of a vague memo about the potential of planes being used to attack us....this country would have demanded impeachment, including me by the way. 9-11 could not have been envisioned in my opinion. I do wish Clinton and W had taken Al Queda's continuing attacks on our interests more seriously, but when W finally did people didn't like that either.

I think W and gang deserve their share of blame.....but its Obama's economy now, and things aint better, they are worse....far worse.


i'm pretty sure there was a little more than a vague memo on the looming threat of planes as weapons. i also don't think things are far worse, but rather stagnant which also means not nose diving into oblivion.
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:17 am

Eric wrote:I didn't say Obama's election emboldened N.Korea...I don't like they way we've handled them for a LONG time. I'm concerned that Iran sees us a pushover now though...CONCERNED...I don't know.

Ok. Fair enough.

Eric wrote:Had W locked down airports and attacked the Taliban in Afganistan 6 months into office because of a vague memo about the potential of planes being used to attack us....this country would have demanded impeachment, including me by the way. 9-11 could not have been envisioned in my opinion. I do wish Clinton and W had taken Al Queda's continuing attacks on our interests more seriously, but when W finally did people didn't like that either.


Whoa...who said anything about full scale carpet bombing?
How about just pooling the resources of your intelligence agencies?
Kinda like the US and the UK did to thwart the Millenium bombings.
We know the CIA was watching the hijackers - that is on record.

Eric wrote:I think W and gang deserve their share of blame.....but its Obama's economy now, and things aint better, they are worse....far worse.

And things could be alot worse too.
I'm not sure what you want.
The stimulus was already larded up with tax cuts.
When has the gov't doing nothing ever worked?
Look at all the banking panics in the 1800s, unemployment still skyrocketed.
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Postby Eric » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:14 am

WOW

W was inarticulate and made us cringe sometimes. Obama put me into a deep, bored confused daze. That was not one of his finer moments tonight.
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Postby Lula » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:18 am

a press conference.... questions and answers. don't really care as long as health care reform happens- now!
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Postby donnaplease » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:23 am

I had some discussions with co-workers today about what this proposed health plan would mean for the elderly and the infirm, which is the population of folks that I work directly with (in a skilled nursing facility). We discussed different ways that it could impact not only the people we serve, but our jobs in general. Then, as I was driving home, I started thinking about the other end of the spectrum, the babies and the unborn. There has been lots of talk about failure to treat chronic health conditions in the elderly, but I wonder how babies and fetuses will be treated with this option. Will babies with congenital conditions be treated with extremely costly interventions, especially when the prospect of failure is high? How about in-utero procedures that occur now, I wonder if those will be part of the 'rationing' of health care... Of course, if (and that's just an IF, I have no idea where that would fall) they choose not to perform needed procedures on this population, would the next step be to encourage/endorse/provide abortions, even late-term abortions??? I used to work in a school that housed a severe & profound special ed department, I wonder what would happen to those folks when they needed health care, even for something as simple as a respiratory infection. I heard recently (somewhere) discussion about the ethical use of antibiotics with regard to the elderly, the same could befall our other most vulnerable populations.

This is some scary stuff for me, as a health care worker. There are so many ethical arguments that could be made. I hope this thing tonight falls flat, because it's too big of an undertaking to occur without more serious thought about the consequences.
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:28 am

donnaplease wrote: I hope this thing tonight falls flat, because it's too big of an undertaking to occur without more serious thought about the consequences.


American politicians have been making the case for national health care since 1912.
Just how much more time do you need?
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Postby donnaplease » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:36 am

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
donnaplease wrote: I hope this thing tonight falls flat, because it's too big of an undertaking to occur without more serious thought about the consequences.


American politicians have been making the case for national health care since 1912.
Just how much more time do you need?


Obviously I need more time than BO is willing to give. I don't like the concept, I already have a taste of government-run health care so I have at least a little to compare it to (not that some of the private insurances aren't a bunch of crap, too). Obviously I'm not alone in my concerns, otherwise BO's popularity wouldn't be sinking so fast. People are scared by this thing. The fact that he's working so hard to force it upon us only reinforces to me that there's something not quite right with it. Not only that, but there really weren't many of the ethical issues in 1912 that we face today. Technology can be a blessing and a curse at the same time I suppose. How do you respond to the other issues I mentioned?
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:58 am

donnaplease wrote:How do you respond to the other issues I mentioned?


I don't.
There are no mass waves of old folk euthanasia or wholesale baby slaughter going on in the other nations with universal healthcare.
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Postby Eric » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:59 am

Lula wrote:a press conference.... questions and answers. don't really care as long as health care reform happens- now!


Choose Lula:

Obama's plan

OR

My plan


1. Offer more products - There is a need and a market for a larger variety of plans, such as a more readily available emergency plan where only major health care expenses are covered for someone looking to save a buck without being too risky. How about a plan that only covers expenses of over $1,000....but you'd have very low premiums. And plans targeted to younger folks where they would have lower premiums but no prescription or well visit coverage.

2. Further breakdown of family plans - There is single, family2, and family3+. There needs to be greater breakdown for large families, i.e., a family with 6 kids should pay more than a family with 1 kid. I propose it should be: single, married, married+1, married2-3, married4-5, married6+.

3. Health Investment Accounts - You should be able to "invest" in an IRA type of health account. Essentially, this would be akin to provide health insurance options similar to different types of life insurance options. This could work like a Roth IRA, where you could invest money in the market and the money can be withdrawn tax free for a health need at anytime, or it could be used like a traditional IRA or 401K retirement plan, where you could lower your taxable income by investing into your health account, much like the benefit health savings plans (which also need greater exposure) offer now. This account could grow like a retirement account (or have cash value), and provide a safety net for people in their elderly years.

4. Eliminate FREE for the poor - FREE healthcare should be available ONLY for poor KIDS, combat veterans and the severely disabled. Rather, offer temporary basic plans to help folks who need it.

5. Mandatory healthy living - If you are obese and continue to gain weight through poor diet and lack of exercise, then you lose coverage on issues that are affected through your bad decisions (i.e. diabetes, knee surgeries). If you suffer from typical cases of anxiety, stress, depression and refuse to properly follow doctor's instructions to get mental help or use pharm aid, then you lose coverage on issues that are affected through your poor decision-making (high blood pressure, headaches etc.).

6. Less usage of the ER – Our ERs are over-crowded. Primary care physicians and after-hour clinics are more appropriate places to visit for non-emergency care.

7. Allow and promote the usage of PA's to alleviate wait times. PA's are more than competent to handle most issues, and it would help doctors with seeing patients.

8. Make insurance companies hire people with medical degrees they can consult if they intend to continue making medical decisions. Recently, MVP..and HMO here in Rochester, NY...wouldn't even cover a low end heartburn med for me, despite my condition of severe acid reflux disease with documentation and doctors ordering the script. I have used them for over a decade, but recently have gotten the meds free from a Pharm rep friend of mine. Since I stopped for a while through MVP...they told me to eff off. Not good.
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Postby Lula » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:34 pm

eric-
whatever it takes to make our heath care system work for all citizens is what i choose. too many working people can not afford to buy insurance. emergency rooms are flooded with the uninsured. a person with cancer can be turned away when looking for coverage. in this great country it is a sin we have so many going without. i am a fortunate one- both me and my son have coverage through my employer, but our union has fought long and hard to get us the coverage we receive. i make less in comparison to others because of my heath insurance, but you've got to have it to survive.
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Postby donnaplease » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:37 pm

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
donnaplease wrote:How do you respond to the other issues I mentioned?


I don't.
There are no mass waves of old folk euthanasia or wholesale baby slaughter going on in the other nations with universal healthcare.


Nice. :roll:

I found this website a bit ago. It has articles from other countries with universal healthcare, describing some of the problems that the people find with it. I think everyone should check it out, and then ask themselves if they're willing that they (or their loved ones) should be held to that same standard.

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/is ... lized.html
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:50 pm

donnaplease wrote:Nice. :roll:

Sorry, I'm not going to entertain your argument about this "scary" "alien" thing called universal healthcare when it exists in every civilized nation on earth.
Our own flirtation with socialized medicine, called Medicare, is superior to the HMOS on several levels.
We have people on this own forum that wouldn't trade the NHS for what we have.
Get Andrew involved - see what he thinks of his universal healthcare.
Of my friends and family who live abroad, the consensus is about the same - sure, it's got problems, but it beats what we have.
Switzerland had a private system like ours and chucked it.
Is there any hue and cry by the citizens to bring the HMOs back?
Of course not.

donnaplease wrote:I found this website a bit ago. It has articles from other countries with universal healthcare, describing some of the problems that the people find with it. I think everyone should check it out, and then ask themselves if they're willing that they (or their loved ones) should be held to that same standard.

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/is ... lized.html

And do those countries provide the option of going to a private hospital, as they do in the UK?
Why do you begrudge your fellow Americans having a basic standard of care?
If you don't want in, go to a private hospital.
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Postby donnaplease » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:54 pm

Speaking of Nice... Is this what we really want?


http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2009/3 ... _dies.html


Who Gets Medical Care, Who Dies
by Marcia Merry Baker


In the course of the decline of the physical economy of Britain over recent decades, a special mechanism was created in 1999—NICE (National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence)—to enforce the reduction in medical treatment provided to Britons through their National Health Service (NHS), which was established in 1948. NICE decrees what drugs, devices, surgeries, and treatment practices are approved for the NHS, based on cost considerations, and what will be disallowed.

Better named, Nazi-Inspired Commoner Extermination, the ten-year-old NICE has been under attack year after year, by NHS patients, physicians, and hospitals alike. In just a decade, its policies of selective denial of cancer drugs, surgeries, kidney dialysis, and other treatments, have increased the death rate for whole age-groups and classes of Britons—which is a Nazi-medicine policy. This was its purpose.

Nevertheless, NICE is now being discussed as the model for inclusion in the U.S. health-care "reform." Those promoting a U.S.-version of the not-so NICE—e.g., a "Federal Health Board," or a Medicare Payment Advisory Commission with teeth, or any such variants—are simply serving the financial interests behind the policy of delimiting care, in order to keep the payments flow going to the "managed care" insurance networks now looting the U.S. medical system to the point of breakdown and death. And to kill people. The record in Britain is clear.

Tony Blair's Nazi NICE
NICE went into operation on April 1, 1999. It was set up through the Health Department of the Tony Blair government (1997-2007), under the propaganda claim that by determining what treatments were to be nationally allowed or not, this would even out the "disparity" in health-care costs and quality from one "post code" to another. As the NICE's own official history chooses to describe it, there was "inappropriate variation in the quality of care and unequal access to new treatment, depending on where you lived ... the government decided to form an organization to improve the quality of care that patients receive from the NHS in England and Wales.... When NICE was first established, many perceived its only role as rationing healthcare. But this was not the case...." (www.nice.org/uk)

What was the case, is that NICE cut care far beyond "rationing," while the physical infrastructure for medical-care delivery was being cut back, in terms of staff ratios, diagnostic equipment, numbers of hospital beds, and so on. NICE has claimed that it is using "clinical effectiveness" among its criteria, but the truth is otherwise. Look at the functioning of the NICE Centre for Health Technology Evaluation, which, in its issuance of formal guidance on what medications will, or will not be allowed, has repeatedly and knowingly caused suffering and death. There are many examples.

In the case of Alzheimer's disease, NICE has tried to limit patients from using the drugs Aricept, Exelon, and Reminyl, by ruling that they can be prescribed only for those with moderate Alzheimer's symptoms, but not those in the early stages of the disease. NICE brushed aside the research studies showing that patients have shown an "excellent response to treatment," after just five months.


In the case of breast cancer, NICE has tried to stop patients from having access to the drug Herceptin. After a big protest movement, limited NHS use was permitted in 2006.


In the case of osteoporosis, NICE has restricted the use of the medicine Protelos.


In the case of kidney cancer, the drug Sutent was disallowed. Following protests by physicians as well as patients, in January 2009, NICE acquiesced to permitting limited use.


In the case of multiple sclerosis, NICE has ruled out beta interferon treatments. In 2001, it ruled that the "clinical benefits appear to be outweighed by very high costs" of the drug. Whereas 15% of continental European MS sufferers receive the drug, only 1% of such patients do in the U.K.
Physician Warnings: NICE Kills
A March 2009 European Journal of Cancer editorial attacks NICE, saying that the agency, in its rulings on which treatments are to be accessible, and under what conditions, has become more restrictive, year by year, and has increasingly based its rulings not on clinical effectiveness, but on cost effectiveness. Last year, to take only one example, NICE rejected four drugs for advanced kidney or lung cancer, while acknowledging, as reported in The Independent of London, that "the drugs do extend life by up to six months, but the money would be better spent on other patients."

NICE has also progressively reduced accessibility of radiology treatments for cancer, causing those who have gone through chemotherapy to wait many months for radiation treatments, or to forgo them entirely. After six years of NICE, the wait for radiology had doubled to six weeks; after ten years, it had nearly doubled again to 11 weeks, according to the (U.S.-based) Commonwealth Foundation.

The results are clear in 2008 comparative studies by the Swedish Karolinska Institute and by the British College of Radiologists. Among women, 10-18% fewer Britons survive five years after breast cancer diagnosis, than women in other major European countries or the United States; the rates of survival range from 71% in France, down to 53% in the U.K. Among men, 10% fewer Britons survive various cancers for five years; the survival rates range from 53% in France, down to 43% in the U.K. Hundreds of thousands of lives are cut off early under NICE's rulings.

An article warning the U.S. against the NICE model was written recently by London oncologist Dr. Karol Sikora, a professor of cancer medicine at the Imperial College School of Medicine. In a May 12, 2009 New Hampshire Union Leader article, "This Health Care 'Reform' Will Kill You," Dr. Sikora said,

As a practicing oncologist, I am forced to give patients older, cheaper medicines. The real cost of this penny-pinching is premature death for thousands of patients—and higher overall health costs than if they had been treated properly....

He added,

If NICE concludes that a new drug gives insufficient bang for the buck, it will not be available through our public National Health Service, which provides care for the majority of Britons....

Partly as a result of these restrictions on new medicines, British patients die earlier. In Sweden, 60.3 percent of men and 61.7 percent of women survive a cancer diagnosis. In Britain the figure ranges between 40.2 to 48.1 percent for men and 48 to 54.1 percent for women.

To police British physicians and patients, who have repeatedly risen up to protest NICE, a new agency went into operation April 1, 2009, called the Care Quality Commission. Headed by Barbara Young, Baroness Young of Old Scone, the Commission has a wide range of enforcement powers under her command, to discipline physicians, hospitals, and others to stay in line with the NICE and related NHS "cost effectiveness" clampdowns.

NICE Mathematics of Death
Earlier this year, the chairman of NICE since its inception, Sir Michael Rawlins, was confirmed to stay on for another two years. He is playing his part to promote the NICE Nazi-medicine approach in the White House "reform" drive. In April, from London, he made a video presentation to a Health Channel TV Summit on U.S. health-care policy. Time magazine interviewed him on March 27, asking, "Why is NICE needed? Shouldn't you get the drugs you need when you are sick, regardless of cost?"

Rawlins: All health-care systems are facing the problem of finite resources and almost infinite demand.... We are best known [for looking] at a new drug, device or diagnostic technique to see whether the increment in the cost of that treatment is worth the increment in the health gain....

Time: How is that measured?

Rawlins: It's based on the cost of a measure called the "quality-adjusted life year." A QALY scores your health on a scale from zero to one: zero if you're dead and one if you're in perfect health. You find out as a result of a treatment where a patient would move up the scale. If you do a hip replacement, the patient might start at 0.5 and go up to 0.7, improving 0.2. You can assume patients live for an average of 15 years following hip replacements. And .2 times 15 equals three quality-adjusted life years. If the hip replacement costs 10,000 GBP [about $15,000] to do, it's 10,000 divided by three, which equals 3,333 GBP [about $5,000]. That figure is the cost per QALY."

Rawlins was asked by the interviewer, "You are basically deciding how much a year of life is worth?" He agreed, admitting that this is "controversial," but it has to be done.

UnitedHealth/AARP—NICE to USA?
One of Rawlins' collaborators, and originators of NICE, is now playing a leading role in exporting its concept to the United States. Simon Stevens is a British national, who today is a vice president for UnitedHealth Group, Inc., heading up its Ovations/AARP Medicare division. He worked in the Blair government from 1997 to 2001, as a policy advisor in the Health Department, during which time NICE was established. In 2001, Stevens moved directly to 10 Downing Street, and served until 2004 as Blair's advisor on national health policy. Stevens was considered an architect of what were called the NICE "reforms" of the NHS. In January 2007, he moved to Minneapolis, to his top position at UnitedHealth, to continue with his "reform" cost-cutting plans in the United States.

On May 27, Stevens announced proposals for how Medicare could cut costs for seniors, issued as a gesture from one of the top private insurance companies, on how to help President Obama find ways to save the government money, in the President's intended comprehensive health "reform" legislation. Stevens announced that UnitedHealth Group has established a new Center for Health Reform and Modernization to advance ways to cut costs, while providing universal health-care coverage.

Stevens said that his proposals could save $540 billion over the next ten years in government health-care spending. Speaking for the UnitedHealth Group, which claims to finance and manage health care for over 70 million Americans, Stevens issued UnitedHealth's report, arguing that many of the cost-saving measures it is already using, could be applied to the Medicare program.

Stevens' report sets out 15 steps which, he claims, are the way to save over half a trillion dollars. Of his 15 steps, the largest grouping (6 steps) is under the category "Reducing Avoidable and Inappropriate Care."

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Postby Angel » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:00 pm

Eric wrote:My plan


I like many aspects of your plan Eric.

Eric wrote:
4. Eliminate FREE for the poor - FREE healthcare should be available ONLY for poor KIDS, combat veterans and the severely disabled. Rather, offer temporary basic plans to help folks who need it.


I agree! I have often said that Medicaid needs to have a copay scale...not much mind you but $5 or $10 for a doctor's office visit, $20 for an outpatient hospital visit, $50 for an ambulance transport etc....if they could not pay the copay up front a payment plan could be arranged. It amazes me how many people abuse the system-not all and not even a majority but there are enough that I feel it costs the government a fair amount. With a copay plan people would think twice about calling an ambulance to take them to the ER because they sneezed twice in a row.
Eric wrote:5. Mandatory healthy living - If you are obese and continue to gain weight through poor diet and lack of exercise, then you lose coverage on issues that are affected through your bad decisions (i.e. diabetes, knee surgeries). If you suffer from typical cases of anxiety, stress, depression and refuse to properly follow doctor's instructions to get mental help or use pharm aid, then you lose coverage on issues that are affected through your poor decision-making (high blood pressure, headaches etc.).

While I don't agree entirely with this (obesity is not always a "choice"), I do agree that blatant disregard for one's health should carry some consequences.

Eric wrote:6. Less usage of the ER – Our ERs are over-crowded. Primary care physicians and after-hour clinics are more appropriate places to visit for non-emergency care.


Agreed. A copay may help to reduce this problem.

Eric wrote:7. Allow and promote the usage of PA's to alleviate wait times. PA's are more than competent to handle most issues, and it would help doctors with seeing patients.


YES! And that could also be extended to the use of nurse practitioners and nurse midwives. Now because midwifery is my background this is something I am passionate about. If all low to moderate risk pregnant women were encouraged to use midwives, maternity health care costs would be cut drastically. Not only do midwives usually charge less than a physician, they have been proven over and over and over again to have better outcomes, less preterm deliveries, lower c-section rates and less neonatal and maternal morbidity and a huge plus is that overall, women are far more satisfied with their birth experience when a midwife provides their care. In addition, I also think elective procedures should not be covered at the same rate as necessary procedures. For example the routine use of ultrasound in low risk pregnant women has not been shown to be associated with better outcomes and some states currently do not cover the cost of a ultrasound without and indication. I feel the same is true for elective induction of labor, c-section on demand (meaning no medical reason, mom just wants a c-section) and use of epidural anesthesia. I'm not saying these things should not be covered at all but I don't think they should be covered at 100% like they are now.
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Postby The_Noble_Cause » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:02 pm

donnaplease wrote:Speaking of Nice... Is this what we really want?


http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2009/3 ... _dies.html


I would think twice before relying on Lyndon LaRouche as your source for healthcare statistics - or any facts, for that matter.
At the very least, pick a right wing group like Cato or Heritage that isn't a total joke.
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Postby donnaplease » Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:13 pm

The_Noble_Cause wrote:
donnaplease wrote:Nice. :roll:

Sorry, I'm not going to entertain your argument about this "scary" "alien" thing called universal healthcare when it exists in every civilized nation on earth.
Our own flirtation with socialized medicine, called Medicare, is superior to the HMOS on several levels.
We have people on this own forum that wouldn't trade the NHS for what we have.
Get Andrew involved - see what he thinks of his universal healthcare.
Of my friends and family who live abroad, the consensus is about the same - sure, it's got problems, but it beats what we have.
Switzerland had a private system like ours and chucked it.
Is there any hue and cry by the citizens to bring the HMOs back?
Of course not.

donnaplease wrote:I found this website a bit ago. It has articles from other countries with universal healthcare, describing some of the problems that the people find with it. I think everyone should check it out, and then ask themselves if they're willing that they (or their loved ones) should be held to that same standard.

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/is ... lized.html

And do those countries provide the option of going to a private hospital, as they do in the UK?
Why do you begrudge your fellow Americans having a basic standard of care?
If you don't want in, go to a private hospital.


Ya know what, TNC... I lost my mother 10 years ago because the doctor she trusted didn't want to do a test on her because it wasn't "cost-effective", and he knew what the problem was, she was 70 and smoked. All the while he had mis-diagnosed her, and had he done the test I requested she would've been diagnosed correctly the FIRST time, not the third time she was hospitalized. Of course, by that time the fucking tumor in her brain had doubled in size 3X, essentially killing half her brain, paralyzing her and limiting her cognitive functioning by quite a bit. She died about 9 days after the actual CORRECT diagnosis was confirmed, using the test that I had originally requested.

Does rationing and cost-containment happen now? Of course it does. But I am very concerned for what the future holds for those that I love when I read things like I did on that website, which mentions how Britain determines a person's quality of life based on their own standards, and determines how much money they are willing to spend to treat that patient. Who the hell is the government to say that your quality of life makes you more deserving of care than mine? That's bullshit! If you think this stuff won't happen, you're either totally crazy or just unwilling to face reality. Now I know you're not crazy, in fact despite my total disagreement with nearly everything political that you say, I know you're a very intelligent man.

Health care access for everyone is wonderful, I wholeheartedly agree with it. But again, I don't think this is the answer.
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Postby Eric » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:47 pm

Lula wrote:
Eric wrote:Had W locked down airports and attacked the Taliban in Afganistan 6 months into office because of a vague memo about the potential of planes being used to attack us....this country would have demanded impeachment, including me by the way. 9-11 could not have been envisioned in my opinion. I do wish Clinton and W had taken Al Queda's continuing attacks on our interests more seriously, but when W finally did people didn't like that either.

I think W and gang deserve their share of blame.....but its Obama's economy now, and things aint better, they are worse....far worse.


i'm pretty sure there was a little more than a vague memo on the looming threat of planes as weapons. i also don't think things are far worse, but rather stagnant which also means not nose diving into oblivion.


What was there then....and why didn't two different administrations act more swiftly?

Unemployment is up 20% (8% to 10%). Things are far worse.
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Postby Eric » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:57 pm

Lula wrote:eric-
whatever it takes to make our heath care system work for all citizens is what i choose. too many working people can not afford to buy insurance. emergency rooms are flooded with the uninsured. a person with cancer can be turned away when looking for coverage. in this great country it is a sin we have so many going without. i am a fortunate one- both me and my son have coverage through my employer, but our union has fought long and hard to get us the coverage we receive. i make less in comparison to others because of my heath insurance, but you've got to have it to survive.


Some questions:

1) But is Obama's plan going to spread those problems across the entire population? That is, are we going to have to pay for the illegals and abusers?
2) How is this not going to increase our debt? He won't elaborate.
3) Is Government going to make the one headed insurance monster a 2-headed insurance monster? Sounds like double the interference to me.
4) Why does he feel it necessary to tax health insurance as income if you don't choose the Gov't plan. Is it because he wants to push as many people into it as possible? Is it a slope to Universal Care? If yes, how can Government afford 2 trillion dollars a year (300 million people x average healthcare caost of 7K/per person/per year).
5) How much did your Union drive up your costs? Does a single person in your Union have to pay a family rate?
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Postby Eric » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:59 pm

Angel wrote:
YES! And that could also be extended to the use of nurse practitioners and nurse midwives. Now because midwifery is my background this is something I am passionate about. If all low to moderate risk pregnant women were encouraged to use midwives, maternity health care costs would be cut drastically. Not only do midwives usually charge less than a physician, they have been proven over and over and over again to have better outcomes, less preterm deliveries, lower c-section rates and less neonatal and maternal morbidity and a huge plus is that overall, women are far more satisfied with their birth experience when a midwife provides their care. In addition, I also think elective procedures should not be covered at the same rate as necessary procedures. For example the routine use of ultrasound in low risk pregnant women has not been shown to be associated with better outcomes and some states currently do not cover the cost of a ultrasound without and indication. I feel the same is true for elective induction of labor, c-section on demand (meaning no medical reason, mom just wants a c-section) and use of epidural anesthesia. I'm not saying these things should not be covered at all but I don't think they should be covered at 100% like they are now.


Oops..yeah I meant to add them along with the PA's.
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Postby swataz » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:49 pm

Good ole "ram it down congress' throats without giving them time to read a thouasand page document" Obama.

Love the guy.

Wake up sheep. Bush and his administration may have sucked, but Obama brings in a whole new level of how to f**k up this country.
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Postby swataz » Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:05 am

Contrary to popular belief in Washington, and especially at the top, there IS intelligent life in America. And once they wade through the bullshit and propoganda they are inundated with and get the facts delivered to them, they are able to come to sound conclusions.

And here we have a perfect excample.

Like you said and like I said, he likes to ram legislation through out system like a pneumatic tube. Like the TARP. By the way, speaking of which, with these banks now making billions in profits, when do they start PAYING the money BACK TO US?
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