CHILD ABUSE!!!!

[Behshad]

Once again I am not defending child abusing parents, but your comparison is just not vaild. If you go by that analogy then if a married couple is into S&M , then by all means they should be allowed to use the whip and chains on their children too

And it is valid because if this had been a video of a husband doing this to a wife, the opinions would be different and he would be labeled a spouse abuser, guaranteed.

A child is supposed to listen to their parents and they have legal authority over them to do so, in most instances. Are you suggesting that the same be granted for husband and wife? Furthermore, let's take your example and flip it around. Let's show a wife doing this to her husband ... and see how many laughs we get!

You might laugh, but yeah there are women who do that too, and they get arrersted for domestic violence also. So flip it around, fine and dandy, but I'm not understanding why you think that means I think spouses are supposed to have legal authority to listen to the other That's not the point, the point was if this were a video of another adult doing this to another adult, spouse to spouse, it would be considered domestic abuse and the person performing it would be going to jail.

apparently you havend seen "Chained&Whipped 2"

[Melissa]

Once again I am not defending child abusing parents, but your comparison is just not vaild. If you go by that analogy then if a married couple is into S&M , then by all means they should be allowed to use the whip and chains on their children too

And it is valid because if this had been a video of a husband doing this to a wife, the opinions would be different and he would be labeled a spouse abuser, guaranteed.

A child is supposed to listen to their parents and they have legal authority over them to do so, in most instances. Are you suggesting that the same be granted for husband and wife? Furthermore, let's take your example and flip it around. Let's show a wife doing this to her husband ... and see how many laughs we get!

You might laugh, but yeah there are women who do that too, and they get arrersted for domestic violence also. So flip it around, fine and dandy, but I'm not understanding why you think that means I think spouses are supposed to have legal authority to listen to the other That's not the point, the point was if this were a video of another adult doing this to another adult, spouse to spouse, it would be considered domestic abuse and the person performing it would be going to jail.

apparently you havend seen "Chained&Whipped 2"

Ok I guess I have to specify NOT PORN?

[Saint John]

I'm not understanding why you think that means I think spouses are supposed to have legal authority to listen to the other

Apologies for the confusion, Mel. I was simply pointing out the difference in the legal authority, as it relates to the 2 relationships.

That's not the point, the point was if this were a video of another adult doing this to another adult, spouse to spouse, it would be considered domestic abuse and the person performing it would be going to jail.

No, they wouldn't. There's nothing being forced upon this child. He's being told what to do and he's doing it, willingly. I don't see him fighting back and/or being forced to do anything. He doesn't like the punishment, but he seems to know the routine. And by the fact that he routinely pisses on things in the house and wipes snots on the wall, it shows me that he has the propensity to do some pretty ballsy things. Some of you are acting like she put him in a headlock and pried his mouth open, and then wrestled him naked and forced him into and held him in the shower. And that's simply not the case. If this child was in agony, he'd have jumped out of the shower. furthermore, a complete and thorough investigation found that the other 6 kids are fine, and have never been abused. I doubt this church-going family with 4 adopted children and a police officer husband adopted this kid so they could get off on torturing him. This was questionable, but legal, parenting that jerked a bunch of heartstrings and turned into a witch hunt.

[StevePerryHair]

He looked terrified. I'd love to know, again, what she does the times maybe he didn't comply? There is a reason a child that young...WITH that disorder...isn't fighting back. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.

[Behshad]

I'm not understanding why you think that means I think spouses are supposed to have legal authority to listen to the other

Apologies for the confusion, Mel. I was simply pointing out the difference in the legal authority, as it relates to the 2 relationships.

That's not the point, the point was if this were a video of another adult doing this to another adult, spouse to spouse, it would be considered domestic abuse and the person performing it would be going to jail.

No, they wouldn't. There's nothing being forced upon this child. He's being told what to do and he's doing it, willingly. I don't see him fighting back and/or being forced to do anything. He doesn't like the punishment, but he seems to know the routine. And by the fact that he routinely pisses on things in the house and wipes snots on the wall, it shows me that he has the propensity to do some pretty ballsy things. Some of you are acting like she put him in a headlock and pried his mouth open, and then wrestled him naked and forced him into and held him in the shower. And that's simply not the case. If this child was in agony, he'd have jumped out of the shower. furthermore, a complete and thorough investigation found that the other 6 kids are fine, and have never been abused. I doubt this church-going family with 4 adopted children and a police officer husband adopted this kid so they could get off on torturing him. This was questionable, but legal, parenting that jerked a bunch of heartstrings and turned into a witch hunt.

Love your sig.

[Melissa]

He looked terrified. I'd love to know, again, what she does the times maybe he didn't comply? There is a reason a child that young...WITH that disorder...isn't fighting back. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.

Exactly, it's not normal for MOST kids even WITHOUT any disorders to just sit there and let someone dump hot sauce in their mouth. He was way too submissive for a child with that disorder, or any child. I mean, as you well know as a mom, just trying to give an oral antibiotic to a toddler or young child who hates the taste is HELL They FIGHT, they clamp their mouth shut, they push your hands away, they turn their heads away, they scream... they don't just SUBMIT like that. That kid has been abused. Period.

[Saint John]

He looked terrified. I'd love to know, again, what she does the times maybe he didn't comply? There is a reason a child that young...WITH that disorder...isn't fighting back. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.

You've shown emotion and now you're assuming, the latter without any evidence. Again, a full investigation of all 6 other kids found no signs of any abuse. And I don't see a "terrified" kid. Just a brat that doesn't like being held accountable and punished. Like most kids.

[StevePerryHair]

He looked terrified. I'd love to know, again, what she does the times maybe he didn't comply? There is a reason a child that young...WITH that disorder...isn't fighting back. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.

You've shown emotion and now you're assuming, the latter without any evidence. Again, a full investigation of all 6 other kids found no signs of any abuse. And I don't see a "terrified" kid. Just a brat that doesn't like being held accountable and punished. Like most kids.

he's like 5 dan. How old were you when you were this juvenile delinquent who needed this "tough love"?? Age is one of the biggest factors for me here.

[StevePerryHair]

He looked terrified. I'd love to know, again, what she does the times maybe he didn't comply? There is a reason a child that young...WITH that disorder...isn't fighting back. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.

Exactly, it's not normal for MOST kids even WITHOUT any disorders to just sit there and let someone dump hot sauce in their mouth. He was way too submissive for a child with that disorder, or any child. I mean, as you well know as a mom, just trying to give an oral antibiotic to a toddler or young child who hates the taste is HELL They FIGHT, they clamp their mouth shut, they push your hands away, they turn their heads away, they scream... they don't just SUBMIT like that. That kid has been abused. Period.

That's why I feel that way!!! I've had 3 kids I've had to force into things over the years, and they FIGHT! He has no fight in him. That concerns me greatly. There is a reason. That is a normal reaction for a normal child to fight. Surely an emotionally damaged child would too?

[StevePerryHair]

Also, those 5 other kids are NO factor in this. There are women that have children, and only abuse one. It's actually pretty common. I've heard several cases like this. One is treated like an animal, because he's labeled the "bad" one.

[Michigan Girl]

I have Bunco tonight ...you all have a great chance of making the morning
radio chit~chat!!

Whomever brought up the dog love, good job ...if this vid showed this woman
doing this to a dog, rather than ...this country would be going nuts, myself
included ...think about that!!

[Saint John]

He looked terrified. I'd love to know, again, what she does the times maybe he didn't comply? There is a reason a child that young...WITH that disorder...isn't fighting back. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.

Exactly, it's not normal for MOST kids even WITHOUT any disorders to just sit there and let someone dump hot sauce in their mouth. He was way too submissive for a child with that disorder, or any child. I mean, as you well know as a mom, just trying to give an oral antibiotic to a toddler or young child who hates the taste is HELL They FIGHT, they clamp their mouth shut, they push your hands away, they turn their heads away, they scream... they don't just SUBMIT like that. That kid has been abused. Period.

Again, that hot sauce just isn't all that hot. There were no signs of anguish before, during or after that was put in his mouth. You're searching for things that aren't there. It's abuse if he fights back and it's abuse if he doesn't. Do you realize that those are the only 2 possibilities?!?

BUT ... I'll give you ladies this. They haven't shown the part where she, almost tearfully, says "I'm out of control. I've tried everything. I don't know what to do." In that instance, I saw someone that does care and is at her wit's end ... and possibly admits that she's not parenting properly. But she's not someone that went through the trouble of adopting 4 kids, one with a tough disorder to parent, so she could abuse them. And she sure as hell wouldn't record it and send it to a TV show! This lady got a bum deal.

[Rick]

Hey, as Bill Cosby said "Let the beatings begin!"

We had a babysitter when I was around 5 or 6 that made us drink vinegar. I know for sure we deserved punishment, but that was awful. His family was a friend of our family, and his dad kicked his ever loving ass when he got home. Or so I heard.

[StevePerryHair]

Dan- if you go back to one of my early posts, that did bother me too, that she sought help, and knew it was something not working. What bothers me, is that if another mom is at wits end like her, they may not ask for help now! Afraid they'll be "caught". I think her desire for help should have been considered. But the fact her daughter taped it for a national tv show really is what got her convicted. That was most likely the reason. Had she gone through other channels for help, bet she wouldn't have been arrested. There is still no excuse to discipline him this way. I'll never say her methods were good. Only that she needs help!!! Not just the boy and his behavior, SHE needs help separate from that!

[yulog]

So this boy does have RAD and this video was not a first event of negative behavior, it was done after a plethera of issues with this child including aggression , peeing on the floor , habitual lying, and severe tantrums. Also, it should be noted that the parents initially tried all the acceptable ways of disciplining this child(time outs , positive reinforcement, removing toys and such as discipline...nothing worked so she had to try to up the ante) this mother had tried to get help with this boy and was not getting the help she needed(very common in these cases). Because she wasn't getting the help she needed she didnt know that stronger disciplines don't always work on RAD kids either.

The kid showing no emotion when hot sauce was put in his mouth could have easily been that it didnt bother him enough to make a fuss or that he was emotionless(which happens all the time with these kids) like i said before, one minute these kids can be well behaved and the next and explosive tantrum like you have never seen.

What kills me here is there has been no accountability placed on the Dr Phil show for initially rejecting this lady for being too tame with her kids, and then basically coaxing her into how to get on and get help.I would guess from what i have seen , a mom would lie, steal, cheat and almost kill to try to get help for her child. Could it be possible that this lady took a dive to get the help she needed for this kid? Is it possible that she thought by going to Dr Phil that her family would get help, all she had to do was what they asked her to do to get on the show, only to find out she got stabbed in the back by the public who are clueless?

And dont let the fact that this woman isn't some beautiful looking person sway what you think of her(some people have been saying shes sick because of the way she looks) How many people here think that if they had 6 kids and one of them is a special needs kid that looking your best would be a high priority? ....... I dont.


Just one more thing...We have a long time poster here that has a child that has special needs and he shared with us that his wife was so frustrated and so emotionally drained that she wanted to give the child up. If we didn't know who Dave was and that his child was a special needs kid, we would all think "what a horrible person, that is abusive, they should go to jail" ,but because we know that he has a very difficult child we don't think that way. In light of finding out that this boy has been diagnosed with RAD and everything else that has shown up ,why would we not afford this mother the same( and before you point to the video just think about this: From what Dave has told us don't you think he and his family could have easily made video of some of his struggles that could look a lot worse?)

[Saint John]

Dan- if you go back to one of my early posts, that did bother me too, that she sought help, and knew it was something not working. What bothers me, is that if another mom is at wits end like her, they may not ask for help now! Afraid they'll be "caught". I think her desire for help should have been considered. But the fact her daughter taped it for a national tv show really is what got her convicted. That was most likely the reason. Had she gone through other channels for help, bet she wouldn't have been arrested. There is still no excuse to discipline him this way. I'll never say her methods were good. Only that she needs help!!! Not just the boy and his behavior, SHE needs help separate from that!

Lynn, and this goes for Mel and MG, no one is arguing that what this lady did was right. Her actions were poor, but the law seems so vague that I think she should have got the benefit of the doubt. I actually think a bench trial would have found her not guilty. I see a judge more apt to abide by the law (or in this case, by its ambiguity). But I also see him ripping her a new asshole (though a new hair do would be better) and warning her of appearing in his/her court again. This was an impulse case. You have an angry, frustrated parent using borderline methods and you have a prosecution pushed by public outcry. furthermore, you have a vague law being cast aside because an emotional jury has the "what if we let her go and she kills him" weighing on their minds. I still have yet to see where the prosecution clearly showed, beyond a reasonable doubt, that she violated the law. And that's all this is about.

I know the ladies arguing in this forum (even Natalie) are all good people, great people in general and terrific mothers. Please don't let my debating obscure that belief in any way. That said ... later, bitches! It's time for dinner!

[Melissa]

IF she wanted HELP, why didn't she record his BEHAVIOR, instead her attention-getting methods of discipline? She wanted on national TV, and that's what she accomplished. IF she truly wanted help she would have recorded the behavior he supposedly displays and then asked "How do I deal with this behavior?", instead of HER Joan Crawford impersonation.

[Melissa]

Dan- if you go back to one of my early posts, that did bother me too, that she sought help, and knew it was something not working. What bothers me, is that if another mom is at wits end like her, they may not ask for help now! Afraid they'll be "caught". I think her desire for help should have been considered. But the fact her daughter taped it for a national tv show really is what got her convicted. That was most likely the reason. Had she gone through other channels for help, bet she wouldn't have been arrested. There is still no excuse to discipline him this way. I'll never say her methods were good. Only that she needs help!!! Not just the boy and his behavior, SHE needs help separate from that!

Lynn, and this goes for Mel and MG, no one is arguing that what this lady did was right. Her actions were poor, but the law seems so vague that I think she should have got the benefit of the doubt. I actually think a bench trial would have found her not guilty. I see a judge more apt to abide by the law (or in this case, by its ambiguity). But I also see him ripping her a new asshole (though a new hair do would be better) and warning her of appearing in his/her court again. This was an impulse case. You have an angry, frustrated parent using borderline methods and you have a prosecution pushed by public outcry. furthermore, you have a vague law being cast aside because an emotional jury has the "what if we let her go and she kills him" weighing on their minds. I still have yet to see where the prosecution clearly showed, beyond a reasonable doubt, that she violated the law. And that's all this is about.

I know the ladies arguing in this forum (even Natalie) are all good people, great people in general and terrific mothers. Please don't let my debating obscure that belief in any way. That said ... later, bitches! It's time for dinner!

Any hot sauce with dinner?

[StevePerryHair]

I hope I would not see Dave using deliberate forms of torture. Trying to restrain a child out of control of course can look bad on video. But that's not what we are seeing here. Youre comparing two different things. This boy misbehaved in school. This was his punishment at a time when he wasn't acting out. How is that the same? My heart goes out to any special needs parent. I grew up in a household with that, and it was difficult then, because we didn't know WHY he acted how he did. Still never resorted to something like that. these people have a diagnosis. If they just thought they had a "bad kid" I'd have more sympathy. But they KNOW his diagnosis. More reason to seek help much sooner, and NOT some sensationalized show. I don't watch that show for that reason. I saw this exact show when it first aired. It's one of the reasons i stopped watching. It's ridiculous to exploit people's problems this way in an hour show. I am not for it. There is other, real help out there.

I never heard Dave say he tortures his daughter. I hear a couple who loves this daughter they took on by choice. Who has been hurt over and over but still keeps trying. And he has improvements with her, which proves he has sought help. Even though it's still a constant struggle. None of this stuff was directed at him. It's directed at one woman, and her choice to take a special needs child and have her daughter tape her using extreme methods to discipline. My problem is HER. That child is young and still manageable...what will she do when he's large and outweighs her, and he fights back? She needed a better way!!

And yul....her looks have nothing to do with this! I am judging her behavior. Hell, how do you know I wouldn't be more angry at a perfect barbie type???

I just don't get why if a teacher or baby sitter did this....people would be PISSED... but his own mother who is supposed to love him can do this emotionless.....she didn't show emotion of caring at all in that tape.

[Behshad]

IF she wanted HELP, why didn't she record his BEHAVIOR, instead her attention-getting methods of discipline? She wanted on national TV, and that's what she accomplished. IF she truly wanted help she would have recorded the behavior he supposedly displays and then asked "How do I deal with this behavior?", instead of HER Joan Crawford impersonation.

Again, youre just assuming. And she didnt wanna ask for help on how to deal with her kid, she wanted help on how to deal with herself

[S2M]

I didn't hear the kid crying, "No wire hangers".....

[Melissa]

IF she wanted HELP, why didn't she record his BEHAVIOR, instead her attention-getting methods of discipline? She wanted on national TV, and that's what she accomplished. IF she truly wanted help she would have recorded the behavior he supposedly displays and then asked "How do I deal with this behavior?", instead of HER Joan Crawford impersonation.

Again, youre just assuming. And she didnt wanna ask for help on how to deal with her kid, she wanted help on how to deal with herself

Well if I'm just assuming, then you're just assuming also that what she did to the kid didn't hurt him.

[Behshad]

IF she wanted HELP, why didn't she record his BEHAVIOR, instead her attention-getting methods of discipline? She wanted on national TV, and that's what she accomplished. IF she truly wanted help she would have recorded the behavior he supposedly displays and then asked "How do I deal with this behavior?", instead of HER Joan Crawford impersonation.

Again, youre just assuming. And she didnt wanna ask for help on how to deal with her kid, she wanted help on how to deal with herself

Well if I'm just assuming, then you're just assuming also that what she did to the kid didn't hurt him.

I never ever said that what she did to the kid didnt hurt the kid. Show me where I said that

[yulog]

IF she wanted HELP, why didn't she record his BEHAVIOR, instead her attention-getting methods of discipline? She wanted on national TV, and that's what she accomplished. IF she truly wanted help she would have recorded the behavior he supposedly displays and then asked "How do I deal with this behavior?", instead of HER Joan Crawford impersonation.

.



You might have to ask the producers of Dr phil that question?
Could you imagine the public outrage if she did do that, people would still want her to fry,
she can't win for losing.


Again , this is not your ordinary fairly adjusted kid.....far from it.

[conversationpc]

Do you guys remember the story about the lady last year who sent her child back to Russia, putting him on a plane by himself? Though I don't agree with her actions, I know exactly how that mother must've felt. Everyone condemned her but very few really knew what she was going through. Here's an article from my blog with my take on it from April of last year...

http://davesdominion.wordpress.com/2010 ... rspective/

[StevePerryHair]

Do you guys remember the story about the lady last year who sent her child back to Russia, putting him on a plane by himself. Though I don't agree with her actions, I know exactly how that mother must've felt. Everyone condemned her but very few really knew what she was going through. Here's an article from my blog with my take on it from April of last year...

http://davesdominion.wordpress.com/2010 ... rspective/

Wow Dave! Thank you for sharing that! I couldn't get through it without tears. You are amazing people! And your determination to do the best for her is beyond inspiring. It makes my daily struggles with my kids look like playtime!! It upsets me that so many unwanted babies are born into this world, unloved, and uncared for, and this sort of thing is inflicted on that innocent life before and after birth!!! Without the two of you, who knows if she'd even get to grow up! And what you said about the death of what you "thought" your child would be. My mother said those exact words to me, about my brother, and she has been an example for me, watching her great love that still cares for him as an adult at 41, when most moms would have given up long ago!!! As I said, you are amazing people!!!

[yulog]

I hope I would not see Dave using deliberate forms of torture. Trying to restrain a child out of control of course can look bad on video. But that's not what we are seeing here. Youre comparing two different things. This boy misbehaved in school. This was his punishment at a time when he wasn't acting out. How is that the same? My heart goes out to any special needs parent. I grew up in a household with that, and it was difficult then, because we didn't know WHY he acted how he did. Still never resorted to something like that. these people have a diagnosis. If they just thought they had a "bad kid" I'd have more sympathy. But they KNOW his diagnosis. More reason to seek help much sooner, and NOT some sensationalized show. I don't watch that show for that reason. I saw this exact show when it first aired. It's one of the reasons i stopped watching. It's ridiculous to exploit people's problems this way in an hour show. I am not for it. There is other, real help out there.

I never heard Dave say he tortures his daughter. I hear a couple who loves this daughter they took on by choice. Who has been hurt over and over but still keeps trying. And he has improvements with her, which proves he has sought help. Even though it's still a constant struggle. None of this stuff was directed at him. It's directed at one woman, and her choice to take a special needs child and have her daughter tape her using extreme methods to discipline. My problem is HER. That child is young and still manageable...what will she do when he's large and outweighs her, and he fights back? She needed a better way!!

And yul....her looks have nothing to do with this! I am judging her behavior. Hell, how do you know I wouldn't be more angry at a perfect barbie type???

I just don't get why if a teacher or baby sitter did this....people would be PISSED... but his own mother who is supposed to love him can do this emotionless.....she didn't show emotion of caring at all in that tape.

From my understanding, they just recently got The diagnosis of RAD . From what i read they got this diagnosis in place because of what happened at the Dr Phil show, regardless just because you have a diagnosis doesn't mean you will be equipped with handling whats coming your way.

A squirt of tapatio and a cold shower is now considered torture

[StevePerryHair]

Are you going to tell me that it's a proper and wonderful form of discipline for this child?? I feel even worse they thought that just had a "bad" child and treated him this way, when who knows what further damage it could cause. You will never get me to agree she was right doing what she did, no matter what that child's diagnosis. I dont see that kind of discipline as love. Sorry. She needs help for her and that child. I feel sad for her, but she took the wrong route. I WISH she had gotten help without that video. Filming something like that with her daughter was just wrong.

[conversationpc]

Do you guys remember the story about the lady last year who sent her child back to Russia, putting him on a plane by himself. Though I don't agree with her actions, I know exactly how that mother must've felt. Everyone condemned her but very few really knew what she was going through. Here's an article from my blog with my take on it from April of last year...

http://davesdominion.wordpress.com/2010 ... rspective/

Wow Dave! Thank you for sharing that! I couldn't get through it without tears. You are amazing people! And your determination to do the best for her is beyond inspiring. It makes my daily struggles with my kids look like playtime!! It upsets me that so many unwanted babies are born into this world, unloved, and uncared for, and this sort of thing is inflicted on that innocent life before and after birth!!! Without the two of you, who knows if she'd even get to grow up! And what you said about the death of what you "thought" your child would be. My mother said those exact words to me, about my brother, and she has been an example for me, watching her great love that still cares for him as an adult at 41, when most moms would have given up long ago!!! As I said, you are amazing people!!!

I definitely don't follow the "real men don't cry" stereotype, so I shed a lot of tears writing that.

The last picture at the bottom is when we met her at the orphanage in December 2004. She was tiny then and not even seven years old. She's a lot taller and heavier now. Unlike many orphanages in eastern Europe, this one was fairly well kept up. It looked like an old German manor and the kids appeared to be fairly well taken care of. Some of the orphanages in the more urban areas are somewhat run down and the kids are sometimes tied down to their changing tables with diapers. In the orphanages with the older children, they're often allowed to roam free during the day and some of the older men in some towns will often sneak in to have their way with the girls. The girls who aren't adopted often turn to prostitution when they're released to go on their own. Drugs and STDs are usually in their future.

The smaller picture is the first one we saw of her on the web site where my wife found her. We also have a couple of short videos from before we adopted her, the first being where the country's minister of education was interviewing the children at her orphanage.

Actually, interesting story...While we were there, the same minister of education set up an interview with a magazine who did a story on us for the Christmas season on adoptions. Because of that article, the President of Estonia visited her orphanage after we left and there was a big write-up on that also.

[yulog]

Are you going to tell me that it's a proper and wonderful form of discipline for this child?? I feel even worse they thought that just had a "bad" child and treated him this way, when who knows what further damage it could cause. You will never get me to agree she was right doing what she did, no matter what that child's diagnosis. I dont see that kind of discipline as love. Sorry. She needs help for her and that child. I feel sad for her, but she took the wrong route. I WISH she had gotten help without that video. Filming something like that with her daughter was just wrong.

I'm not saying there is a right or wrong here, I just think this woman is being condemned when she shouldn't be.