Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice THREAD

[Monker]

I can't believe all the numbskulls (on SHH, especially) who are so affected by the cut of the new trailer to the point they've convinced themselves it's going to be a subpar film. They should sign up for therapy ASAP!

Methinks there's a good chance the climactic battle with DoomZod is going to be so epic, it'll probably outdo every other superhero-centric battle onscreen to date. And that's after we've seen the inevitable confrontation between our titular heroes.

LOL. Do you not even notice how hypocritical those two statements are?

You have placed this film on such a high place that there is no way that it can meet those expectations. You are the exact polar opposite of the first bit I quoted.

[YoungJRNYfan]

You assume so much. You are really talking like a fanboy who just can't face what may be happening at DC.

Wrong. There's no assumptions going on here and this has nothing to do with being a "fanboy" whatsoever. I'll leave that up to you..the know-it-all. What IS happening at DC, however, is what the brass has been promoting and releasing, PUBLICLY, about this universe for 2+ years and that's a much, much darker universe than their counterparts. The tones will be laid on thick and they will utilize a more of a Greek God and majestically approach to their DC database of superhero's. This does NOT come from me. If you have been following instead of copying and pasting from Wikalpedia..you wouldn't have an argument. Get a clue.

If this is a "dark and serious" movie, they lied to the general public...and that's not a good thing. If they can't represent the reality of what the movie is and pull in the expected audience (whatever that is), then they won't pull in the expected audience. People don't like it when you lie to them.

Lieing to the general public? You do realize that just 2 nights before on Gotham, they released a sneek peak of a pretty intense and serious theme of the movie that had Batman shackled in chains with a pissed off; creepy Superman, right? You're mental. This movie has been billed as "dark and serious" from the get-go and this hasn't changed from the officially released photo's of Superman, Batman, Lex Luthor, Wonder Woman and Aquaman down to the trailers.

One simple line of humor in a broader trailer is not going to change that fact. If you pay attention to the trailer, the themes and relationships are handled with an intense nature and the action packed sequences that follow confirm that.

IMO, it is much, much more likely that they received feedback from the first trailer that it was TOO DARK AND SERIOUS and that tone turned too many people off. So, they did their focus groups and such and found a balance that attracted the most people...and that is the trailer we got

A lot of assumptions going on here. More regurgitation that you mastered. "You just don't know that!"

However, if it is a lie and this movie is going to be like Watchmen, or even one of the Dark Knight movies, then you will see a backlash of bad reviews of people who saw it expecting one thing and getting another.

Even more regurgitation and assumptions from you. Yawn.

You don't KNOW how DC will use humor.

And you do? No. But I can guarantee one thing: it won't be used the same way Marvel use's it..which is unnecessary and shoehorned just because it's their "what's not broken; don't fix it" mentality with their franchise's. DC has flat out came out and publicly stated how much more different their universe is going to be handled at every structure...even the humor when need-be.

The FACT is that humor was used in this trailer a LOT more than humor was in the Civil War trailer, which is none at all. You can critique Marvel but the facts of what is happening between these two movies does not correspond to your fanboy opinion.

What does this even mean? With your logic, Marvel is lieing to their audience for the lack of humor they invested in their Civil War trailer. People are going to expect such a serious movie that when Marvel starts their humor shtick, it's going to be get bad reviews and bad word of mouth because the audience's hate being lied to. That's what you sound like. Like I said, there's no fanboy opinions between the 2 studios. Marvel is more of the light-hearted, pop-corn fluff summer blockbuster type and DC is going to be more of the serious, grounded and mythological type. If you want to have such an opinion on it, Follow things more than just looking up Wikipedia. DC's brass has been publicizing their more grounded vision for 3 years. This is nothing new.

You have got to be kidding me.

Nope. There were some awesome lines in the trailer. Something you admitted to. What's the problem?

The same thing "you'd be dead already..." It's been said before....in "Wrath of Khan", "No, Jim, he's dead already."

"a bad history with freaks dressed as clowns." is obviously pointed to the Joker. The problem is, in this universe, he doesn't look like a "clown" at all. Oops. To me, this was the greatest fucked up line I have heard in a LONG time.

More finger down the throat rambling. Keep going.

In general, the dialogue was good. I'd even say great. But, it's nothing so exceptional that it deserves the high praise and over the top praise you give it.

Pump the breaks, chief. Over the top praise? I said these were fantastic lines that has Terrio's paws written all over it and it stood out, especially with people's gripes with Goyer in MoS with dialogue. There's a noticeable difference in quality and direction in Terrio's words.

Of course you are going to say such exaggerated things. But, again, realistically, it was a good and funny appearance and all that...but you are putting far higher than it should be.

You are the definition of exaggeration. Wonder Woman is going to be an ass-kicking, no playing games, shit just got real badass chick and that's not putting things higher than they should. She's the God of War in this and she's going to be brutal. No fanboy talk. It's the way it's going to be.

[YoungJRNYfan]

I'm on my phone, so it's hard to navigate. On SHH, a poster popped back up to give us info on the recent trailer. He was involved heavily as an extra on BvS and can't say much, but at the time while he was filming, he provided visual evidence in advance that ended up being true so he's a trusted poster. He said he's not concerned at all with the look of Doomsday and he does in fact grow more and more in appearance. Also, he said the movie is going to be much, much darker than the last trailer showed and how the latest trailer was cut for a bigger viewing audience but the film is going to represent more of the first two trailers as far as tone is concerned. He also said working with Snyder that Snyder isn't afraid to take on the darker aspect of what they are creating and most of the background scenes he was involved in were highly intense. I'll post his quotes later.

And, "extra" is not going to know what Doomsday looks like...unless they decided to use some type of live actor and not CGI.

This guy seems to be saying FAR more about the movie than an "extra" would even possibly know.

He was involved in a good amount of takes as far as extras go and has knowledge of certain aspects of the script. He's not allowed to say much but he confirmed a few things about the speculation that has been takin place. He's known about Doomsday, but since he's been revealed, he popped back up to talk about certain things, but can't go into detail or depth.

[Monker]

Wrong. There's no assumptions going on here

OF COURSE THERE ARE. You are allowing what you want to be to define what you believe IS.

and this has nothing to do with being a "fanboy" whatsoever.

Yes, it does. When you take a good trailer and post over the top praise, like it is the best thing ever, and is exceptional, awesome, blah, blah, blah....and then take things you can't possibly know are true and believe they are absolute indisputable fact....then you are acting like a fanboy.

I'll leave that up to you..the know-it-all. What IS happening at DC, however, is what the brass has been promoting and releasing, PUBLICLY, about this universe for 2+ years and that's a much, much darker universe than their counterparts.

So what. What a studio promises and what it delivers are two different things. They want you to buy tickets and buy DVD's/blu-ray, buy digital downloads, and buy merchandise. That's what it is all about, in the end. Just how a politician, or a political party, will make all types of promises to get you to donate to their campaign, or party, or cause, or to get you to vote. What they deliver and what they promise are two separate things.

What I am seeing is DC is finding it has to straddle a fence. On one side are comic book fans who expect DC, and particularly Batman, to be all dark. On the other side are the fans that simply want to be entertained. Then they look at Marvel and see the monstrous profits these films can make. So, yes, they promise you a movie that is all dark and serious...they want your money. But, they also look at what Marvel has done and they KNOW that they can't make it all dark and serious and pull in that same audience.

Therefore, IMO, it will be darker than a Marvel movie. But, it is not going to be as far in that direction as you are promoting here. I expect it to be in the same tone as the first Iron Man or Winter Soldier or the first Avengers movie. But, I do NOT expect it to be like a Dark Night movie. If it is as dark as you think, then I think it will not meet your expectation at the box office...and Civil War will outsell it.

Lieing to the general public? You do realize that just 2 nights before on Gotham, they released a sneek peak of a pretty intense and serious theme of the movie that had Batman shackled in chains with a pissed off; creepy Superman, right?

Yes, I saw that preview as well. However, Gotham is not exactly "general public"....it's comic book fans, like you. And, it's the lowest rated network show of the day/time. They are giving you what you want...and they are giving the general public what they want in the last trailer. And, the general public FAR outnumbers you and will buy FAR more tickets...that's just common sense.

One simple line of humor in a broader trailer is not going to change that fact. If you pay attention to the trailer, the themes and relationships are handled with an intense nature and the action packed sequences that follow confirm that.

A couple lines of humor and a very silly and obtuse Lex Luthor.

[/quote]

IMO, it is much, much more likely that they received feedback from the first trailer that it was TOO DARK AND SERIOUS and that tone turned too many people off. So, they did their focus groups and such and found a balance that attracted the most people...and that is the trailer we got

A lot of assumptions going on here. More regurgitation that you mastered. "You just don't know that!"[/quote]

I have no idea what you are talking about when you say "regurgitation". What this situation reminds me of is "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" and I know they screened and changed their trailer, and even some of the movie, because of feedback they received during focus groups and such. They were not getting the reaction they wanted so they changed how they marketed the movie.

That is EXACTLY what this movie seems to be doing, too. IMO, something has clued them in that if they continue down this intensely dark and serious tone that they are limiting their audience more than they can accept.

You don't KNOW how DC will use humor.

And you do? No. But I can guarantee one thing: it won't be used the same way Marvel use's it..which is unnecessary and shoehorned just because it's their "what's not broken; don't fix it" mentality with their franchise's. DC has flat out came out and publicly stated how much more different their universe is going to be handled at every structure...even the humor when need-be.

If you don't know, you can't "guarantee" anything. You don't know. What I do know is when an audience can become over burdened when a movie is too dark and serious and they NEED relief. If they don't get it, they lose interest fast. So, I suspect that they will use humor more often than you believe...Or, they won't and they will accept the loss of box office.

The FACT is that humor was used in this trailer a LOT more than humor was in the Civil War trailer, which is none at all. You can critique Marvel but the facts of what is happening between these two movies does not correspond to your fanboy opinion.

What does this even mean?

What it means is your critique of Marvel is irrelevant when Marvel isn't even doing what you are accusing them of in Civil War. When those two trailers are compared, it is Marvel who is using less humor and relies completely on the relationships between the characters and the audience to keep the audience engaged. Marvel can afford to do this because the audience has invested in them through multiple movies...they know Bucky, Captain America, and Iron Man and the intensity of their relationships. The audience already went through that learning curve. DC and their audience has not gone through that...so they have to throw it all in one movie and in order to give a break to all of that intensity, they use humor to relieve that built up tension....-----====> IN THE TRAILER.

With your logic, Marvel is lieing to their audience for the lack of humor they invested in their Civil War trailer. People are going to expect such a serious movie that when Marvel starts their humor shtick, it's going to be get bad reviews and bad word of mouth because the audience's hate being lied to. That's what you sound like.

You are exactly right. I don't think Civil War is going to rely on humor nearly as much as you expect, if at all. I said months, and months ago that Marvel is at a point where a death NEEDS to occur. They are at point where the humor can not just be set aside, but thrown aside. These characters were all buddies, and now they are split and fighting each other. Iron Man no longer has Captain America to be the butt of his jokes because he is taking a pounding from the shield. This is the point where Captain America can tell Iron Man that he is not funny, he's just being an ass...and the audience will accept that because that is where the Avengers are at right now in their relationships with each other and the audience.

Follow things more than just looking up Wikipedia.

I don't read or contribute to the Wiki.

In general, the dialogue was good. I'd even say great. But, it's nothing so exceptional that it deserves the high praise and over the top praise you give it.

Pump the breaks, chief. Over the top praise? I said these were fantastic lines that has Terrio's paws written all over it and it stood out, especially with people's gripes with Goyer in MoS with dialogue. There's a noticeable difference in quality and direction in Terrio's words.

I don't feel like going back and quoting the original post. You went on saying it was awesome and exceptional. It's good dialog, but it's not all you are making it out to be. It may be slightly better than MoS and reflect a certain style, or whatever...but giving all of this lofty praise is not realistic.

You are the definition of exaggeration.

True...when I choose to be.

Wonder Woman is going to be an ass-kicking, no playing games, shit just got real badass chick and that's not putting things higher than they should. She's the God of War in this and she's going to be brutal. No fanboy talk. It's the way it's going to be.

Again, you just don't know this. It's what you WANT to happen, but you don't know.

[Monker]

I'm on my phone, so it's hard to navigate. On SHH, a poster popped back up to give us info on the recent trailer. He was involved heavily as an extra on BvS and can't say much, but at the time while he was filming, he provided visual evidence in advance that ended up being true so he's a trusted poster. He said he's not concerned at all with the look of Doomsday and he does in fact grow more and more in appearance. Also, he said the movie is going to be much, much darker than the last trailer showed and how the latest trailer was cut for a bigger viewing audience but the film is going to represent more of the first two trailers as far as tone is concerned. He also said working with Snyder that Snyder isn't afraid to take on the darker aspect of what they are creating and most of the background scenes he was involved in were highly intense. I'll post his quotes later.

And, "extra" is not going to know what Doomsday looks like...unless they decided to use some type of live actor and not CGI.

This guy seems to be saying FAR more about the movie than an "extra" would even possibly know.

He was involved in a good amount of takes as far as extras go and has knowledge of certain aspects of the script. He's not allowed to say much but he confirmed a few things about the speculation that has been takin place. He's known about Doomsday, but since he's been revealed, he popped back up to talk about certain things, but can't go into detail or depth.

Well, I don't know him or the details of his conversations. But, I don't see how he can know any details of a CGI character. He may know some of the script...but an "extra" having such "secret" knowledge sounds suspicious to me.

In my experience online, people usually exaggerate what they know about what happens on the inside...they can throw out their little bits of knowledge that is true and then add on their guesswork and opinions. It seems more credible because they have nuggets of knowledge but in the end a guess is still a guess and an opinion is still an opinion.

[YoungJRNYfan]

OF COURSE THERE ARE. You are allowing what you want to be to define what you believe IS.

Nope, not the case. I've been following the filming and production closely. There's nothing that I actually believe or want. I'm going into this with an open mind and want to be wow'd. I know more than you when it comes to following behind the scenes on some hardcore sites that get off on certain types of spoilers. There's plenty of stuff I avoid but I don't make up things just because it's what I want to believe. I share stuff with you guys that I frequently look for that nobody else here does other than maybe v.

Yes, it does. When you take a good trailer and post over the top praise, like it is the best thing ever, and is exceptional, awesome, blah, blah, blah....and then take things you can't possibly know are true and believe they are absolute indisputable fact....then you are acting like a fanboy.

Fanboys act the complete opposite. In fact, most of the things you post is following the exact blueprint of what defines a fanboy. I take into heavy consideration and understand that trailers are designed to be deceptive. They cut it up and take small scenes and completely take it out of context to make it look like something's going on when something completely different is going on. You've done it before, but you don't give the audience enough credit and insult their intelligence into thinking you know what they're thinking. In reality, trailers only give you a piece of what the movie could be about. The rest is up for speculation but I've never passed anything off as fact with audiences. You do.

So what. What a studio promises and what it delivers are two different things. They want you to buy tickets and buy DVD's/blu-ray, buy digital downloads, and buy merchandise. That's what it is all about, in the end. Just how a politician, or a political party, will make all types of promises to get you to donate to their campaign, or party, or cause, or to get you to vote. What they deliver and what they promise are two separate things.

That's only true for the outcome of the film itself. We don't know how things will play out but that's not the debate. The debate is tome and if there's only one thing for certain, is that DC is going to be a more brooding and grounded universe. That we do know. How they execute it, plot wise, to fit into the DCEU is something entirely different.

Therefore, IMO, it will be darker than a Marvel movie.

Yeah, that's what I've been saying this whole time in a nutshell.

But, it is not going to be as far in that direction as you are promoting here.

You know this how? You should really take your own advice with this assumption talk.

But, I do NOT expect it to be like a Dark Night movie.

Zack Snyder has gushed over how WB and DC found their identity and praised Nolan for giving them their direction as far as tone goes. I expect BvS to be a mixture of films in tone, most notably Man of Steel, Watchmen (Larry Fong is back as Snyder's original cinematographer) hell, even Argo with Affleck and Terrio's influence.

I think it will not meet your expectation at the box office...

So what's my expectation? I don't recall posting any such thing.

Yes, I saw that preview as well. However, Gotham is not exactly "general public"

Yes it is.

..it's comic book fans, like you.

Ironic statement considering most comic fans don't necessarily care for it since it deviates from most comic book mythos for a more dramatic approach..but that's television and the general public.

A couple lines of humor and a very silly and obtuse Lex Luthor.

There's a difference between humor in dialogue and how a character is specifically written. ..which is yet to be seen with this interpretation with Lex.

IMO, something has clued them in that if they continue down this intensely dark and serious tone that they are limiting their audience more than they can accept.

What I mean by regurgitation...is this ^

If you don't know, you can't "guarantee" anything. You don't know. What I do know is when an audience can become over burdened when a movie is too dark and serious and they NEED relief. If they don't get it, they lose interest fast. So, I suspect that they will use humor more often than you believe...Or, they won't and they will accept the loss of box office.

Humor is going to be involved. Placement and context is everything. Argo is a serious film, but Terrio has greatly timed humor mixed in. I expect that with BvS but in no way shape or form by how Marvel use's it.

Again, you just don't know this. It's what you WANT to happen, but you don't know.

Again, I have no preference in what I want to happen. I'll let the movie itself decide that for me after the fact. That doesn't change things, though when it comes to what direction they are going in when giving out information about the characters with not only interviews, but interviews from the actors themselves and Gadot has givin us plenty of information as far as how serious her character is going to be, ontop of others involved in the creative process. We also don't know how Momoa's Aquaman is going to play out, but Momoa's pimped his role up to being a hardcore take on the character to the point where nobody will ever make fun of that specific character again. Read between the lines. It's what fits in the direction of this universe. Dark, serious and grounded with subtle humor being an inevitable flow with certain types of creative minds taking over for future films but overall, the tones are going to be connected.

[verslibre]

I can't believe all the numbskulls (on SHH, especially) who are so affected by the cut of the new trailer to the point they've convinced themselves it's going to be a subpar film. They should sign up for therapy ASAP!

Methinks there's a good chance the climactic battle with DoomZod is going to be so epic, it'll probably outdo every other superhero-centric battle onscreen to date. And that's after we've seen the inevitable confrontation between our titular heroes.

LOL. Do you not even notice how hypocritical those two statements are?

Nope. First remark refers to expectations affected by a new trailer when the previous trailer made everyone bust a nut.

Second remark has nothing to do with the trailer, if you take a whole nanosecond to ponder it. You can connect the two, but they're independent remarks.

You have placed this film on such a high place that there is no way that it can meet those expectations. You are the exact polar opposite of the first bit I quoted.

Anyone ever point out how you love to overthink shit? What? Everyday? No kidding?

[verslibre]

I'm just going to comment on this:

You are exactly right. I don't think Civil War is going to rely on humor nearly as much as you expect, if at all. I said months, and months ago that Marvel is at a point where a death NEEDS to occur. They are at point where the humor can not just be set aside, but thrown aside. These characters were all buddies, and now they are split and fighting each other. Iron Man no longer has Captain America to be the butt of his jokes because he is taking a pounding from the shield. This is the point where Captain America can tell Iron Man that he is not funny, he's just being an ass...and the audience will accept that because that is where the Avengers are at right now in their relationships with each other and the audience.

Marvel's guilty of multiple bait-and-switch moves already.

The trailer of Iron Man 3 promised a film that would be darker and more intense than the previous two installments.

That turned out to be bullshit.

The trailer of Thor: The Dark World promised a film that would be darker and more intense than the previous installment.

That turned out to be bullshit.

The trailer of Avengers: Age of Ultron promised a film that would be darker and more intense than the previous installment.

Again, it turned out to be not so. One of the Avengers' most fearsome villains was rendered the homicidal equivalent of a stage actor. They included a death in that film. They took a new character, the counterpart of a mutant Fox is using, and turned him into cannon fodder — only he's a speedster who can outrace projectiles.

Now, Captain America: The Winter Soldier did deliver. It had a new directorial team that is no doubt influenced by Nolan. The script was tight and the action was off the chain. It has become, for most people, the best film of the MCU, myself included. Which is great for that movie, and not so great for the Avengers movies (probably one of the reasons Joss left).

We don't know how "dark" Civil War will be. They may kill Cap and have Bucky put on his suit. Or Bucky may die in Cap's arms. Everyone will sob. Or maybe War Machine eats it. The thing is, Civil War was a HUGE story that really cannot be compressed into a 135-minute film. In that story, [SPOILER]Cap dies because a sniper takes him out.[END SPOILER] But looking at how things are probably going to go in this movie, they're really going to have to shoehorn a LOT in there in order for that moment, should they bother to include it, to register any suitable degree of poignancy. The film seems more about Cap protecting Bucky than the Hero Registration Act.

A death needs to occur, but again, looking at what Disney-Marvel likes doing, don't hold your breath for Iron Man or Captain America to eat a bullet. If they do, they do. If they don't...

This is what we do know: Marvel is doing "dark," but they're saving it for their Netflix series: Daredevil, Jessica Jones, etc. However, they have reiterated that they won't be crossing over the films with those shows, citing "It's complicated."

[YoungJRNYfan]

Marvel is a brand. Every single one of their movies are the same. Literally, but it's what people have come to like and are so use to. As long as fans get to laugh and have the RDJR one liners, some back and forth stand up moments and fluff consequences during action scenes, they're good regardless if every single movie feels the same in beats. It's overlooked by their audience because Marvel got their brand down to a science, so why fix it?

The Russo Brothers are definitely Nolan influenced and TWS is the standout so atleast CW has that going for them. That said, I wouldn't be surprised that CW is a glorified Winter Soldier as far as beats are concerned. As a studio and how suffocating the higher ups can be on their talent, they will probably demand the brand over doing anything out of the norm. It's how Marvel has been operating the entire time, but it's what caught hot and brought people in, so they won't fuck with it. For me, watching the same movie over and over, even the choreographed action, doesn't necessarily get me excited to go back. Luckily for me, there's an alternative and that's great for business.

[verslibre]

Marvel is a brand. Every single one of their movies are the same. Literally, but it's what people have come to like and are so use to. As long as fans get to laugh and have the RDJR one liners, some back and forth stand up moments and fluff consequences during action scenes, they're good regardless if every single movie feels the same in beats. It's overlooked by their audience because Marvel got their brand down to a science, so why fix it?

I really would have liked another Captain America movie that wasn't Civil War. Another Captain America that didn't have RDJ in the middle of it.

Avengers: Civil War would have been the right thing to do.

The Russo Brothers are definitely Nolan influenced and TWS is the standout so atleast CW has that going for them. That said, I wouldn't be surprised that CW is a glorified Winter Soldier as far as beats are concerned. As a studio and how suffocating the higher ups can be on their talent, they will probably demand the brand over doing anything out of the norm. It's how Marvel has been operating the entire time, but it's what caught hot and brought people in, so they won't fuck with it. For me, watching the same movie over and over, even the choreographed action, doesn't necessarily get me excited to go back. Luckily for me, there's an alternative and that's great for business.

They always get hot under the collar over at CBR when I say that.

[YoungJRNYfan]

On another note, did you see this weeks episode of Supergirl, v? People are goin baserk over it. Of course, it was the episode I couldn't see..have it DVD'R and I saw people talking about it on social media so that was ruined. I would have been legit surprised by the swerve.

[verslibre]

On another note, did you see this weeks episode of Supergirl, v? People are goin baserk over it. Of course, it was the episode I couldn't see..have it DVD'R and I saw people talking about it on social media so that was ruined. I would have been legit surprised by the swerve.

I didn't see that, but I know who showed up, and that's pretty cool. A good sub for Supes when the show needs more firepower. I need to catch up on most of the season. I missed a couple each of Flash (which improved considerably this season) and Arrow, but last night they played the crossover back to back, where everyone shows up (minus ATOM and the villains, except Vandal Savage). The two episodes set up Legends of Tomorrow. Good stuff. Hawkgirl's hawt.

[YoungJRNYfan]

If you can, check out last week's episode. They are going with the "solar flare" type power with her heat vision where she exhausts her powers. I was highly impressed with her acting and intensity during that scene. I really didn't think she had it in her but she really went for it and turned into a beast. You'll see what I'm talking about if you ever get to it.

[Monker]

OF COURSE THERE ARE. You are allowing what you want to be to define what you believe IS.

Nope, not the case.

You're in denial. Oh, well.

In fact, most of the things you post is following the exact blueprint of what defines a fanboy.

Yeah, I'm a DC fanboy, that makes perfect sense.

I take into heavy consideration and understand that trailers are designed to be deceptive. They cut it up and take small scenes and completely take it out of context to make it look like something's going on when something completely different is going on. You've done it before, but you don't give the audience enough credit and insult their intelligence into thinking you know what they're thinking. In reality, trailers only give you a piece of what the movie could be about. The rest is up for speculation but I've never passed anything off as fact with audiences. You do.

There are some general psychological reactions that most people have to how a story is told. This a simple fact. It is not an insult to people's intelligence to say that people are acting like people.

That's only true for the outcome of the film itself. We don't know how things will play out but that's not the debate. The debate is tome and if there's only one thing for certain, is that DC is going to be a more brooding and grounded universe. That we do know. How they execute it, plot wise, to fit into the DCEU is something entirely different.

You don't even KNOW that. You can GUESS that, but the only way for you to know with %100 confidence that it is a fact is if you have already seen the movie. Even then, it is up to your particular reaction and OPINION of the movie.

I remember a time a number of years ago when certain people were waiting for Eclipse because of how much of a huge success it was going to be and how it was going to rock every Journey fans world. Well, it was released, it was mediocre, and it sold that way too...despite all of the hype of Neal and the fans who supposedly had all of this inside information. Reality is sometimes a lot different when the product is finally released to be consumed.

Therefore, IMO, it will be darker than a Marvel movie.

Yeah, that's what I've been saying this whole time in a nutshell.

But, it is not going to be as far in that direction as you are promoting here.

You know this how? You should really take your own advice with this assumption talk.

Read the sentences together. I wrote "IMO" in front of that first sentence for a reason. I am not assuming anything.

But, I do NOT expect it to be like a Dark Night movie.

Zack Snyder has gushed over how WB and DC found their identity and praised Nolan for giving them their direction as far as tone goes. I expect BvS to be a mixture of films in tone, most notably Man of Steel, Watchmen (Larry Fong is back as Snyder's original cinematographer) hell, even Argo with Affleck and Terrio's influence.

So what. It really makes no difference. Mixing those movies together does not equate to a blockbuster. Watchmen didn't sell well. MoS was a bit average for that type of film. I don't know much at all about Argo.

I absolutely do not believe that any studio is going to intentionally downshift and under sell a film that they probably believe could gross a billion dollars worldwide. IMO, the first part of the movie is going to give you what you want, being all dark and serious. Then the second half is going to loosen up and be a more typical superhero film, similar to what Marvel does. You may not like that, but it will sell. I'm sure the studio knows that.

I think it will not meet your expectation at the box office...

So what's my expectation? I don't recall posting any such thing.

You tell me. I wrote my guess a couple months ago. Why do you not want to post it on a forum?

Yes, I saw that preview as well. However, Gotham is not exactly "general public"

Yes it is.

Not in the same way that Jimmy Kimmel is. That is my point. Putting a teaser on Gotham is directing it at a very specific group of fans. You can attempt to micro-analyze it, but you know it's not "soccer moms" as you said about the Kimmel audience.

There's a difference between humor in dialogue and how a character is specifically written. ..which is yet to be seen with this interpretation with Lex.

That Lex Luthor portrayal added a very specific silly tone to the trailer. That is the point.

IMO, something has clued them in that if they continue down this intensely dark and serious tone that they are limiting their audience more than they can accept.

What I mean by regurgitation...is this ^

I don't know what you are talking about. What hamburger did you think I ate that I then puked up in that sentence above?

Again, I have no preference in what I want to happen. I'll let the movie itself decide that for me after the fact. That doesn't change things, though when it comes to what direction they are going in when giving out information about the characters with not only interviews, but interviews from the actors themselves and Gadot has givin us plenty of information as far as how serious her character is going to be, ontop of others involved in the creative process. We also don't know how Momoa's Aquaman is going to play out, but Momoa's pimped his role up to being a hardcore take on the character to the point where nobody will ever make fun of that specific character again. Read between the lines. It's what fits in the direction of this universe. Dark, serious and grounded with subtle humor being an inevitable flow with certain types of creative minds taking over for future films but overall, the tones are going to be connected.

Sorry, but that is all just typical movie hype. What do you expect them to say? I don't recall Jennifer Garner putting Elektra down until AFTER it was released. Then I saw her on Jon Stewart and she acted like she didn't even want to talk about it or even show the preview.

And, Momoa is so obviously just talking shit that I don't take anything he says seriously. He must know that this could be a make or break role for him. If he does a "Conan" treatment to Aquaman, then he will never break out any further than he already has. But, if he does it right, and DC does it right, he'll have a job for the next 15yrs.

[Monker]

I'm just going to comment on this:

You are exactly right. I don't think Civil War is going to rely on humor nearly as much as you expect, if at all. I said months, and months ago that Marvel is at a point where a death NEEDS to occur. They are at point where the humor can not just be set aside, but thrown aside. These characters were all buddies, and now they are split and fighting each other. Iron Man no longer has Captain America to be the butt of his jokes because he is taking a pounding from the shield. This is the point where Captain America can tell Iron Man that he is not funny, he's just being an ass...and the audience will accept that because that is where the Avengers are at right now in their relationships with each other and the audience.

Marvel's guilty of multiple bait-and-switch moves already.

Not really. They are guilty of not reaching your expectations...but that's really about it.

Now, Captain America: The Winter Soldier did deliver. It had a new directorial team that is no doubt influenced by Nolan. The script was tight and the action was off the chain. It has become, for most people, the best film of the MCU, myself included. Which is great for that movie, and not so great for the Avengers movies (probably one of the reasons Joss left).

Oh, please, Nolan is not the George Lucas of Comic Book film directors.

I don't see anything specific in CA:TWS that made me think of Batman. In fact, it seems a bit silly and a joke.

We don't know how "dark" Civil War will be.

I didn't say it would be. I said they would rely less on humor.

They may kill Cap and have Bucky put on his suit. Or Bucky may die in Cap's arms. Everyone will sob.

The last I read, Chris Evans contract is up after this film...and Stan still has a lot more films to complete his.

Read into that what you will.

The thing is, Civil War was a HUGE story that really cannot be compressed into a 135-minute film.

They are not telling that story. Why can you not understand that what works in one medium does not always work in another.

In that story, [SPOILER]Cap dies because a sniper takes him out.[END SPOILER] But looking at how things are probably going to go in this movie, they're really going to have to shoehorn a LOT in there in order for that moment, should they bother to include it, to register any suitable degree of poignancy. The film seems more about Cap protecting Bucky than the Hero Registration Act.

I can already see what they are doing. They are building up the emotional connection between these characters so when CA dies, it will have a huge emotional impact on Bucky, Iron Man, and the audience who is invested in the story and emotion between those character. That is the very problem with BvS that I have been harping on for so long...it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to have built up the same degree of investment in Superman/Batman/audience that Marvel has done.

A death needs to occur, but again, looking at what Disney-Marvel likes doing, don't hold your breath for Iron Man or Captain America to eat a bullet. If they do, they do. If they don't...

If they don't, they need to negotiate a new contract with Chris Evans.

[YoungJRNYfan]

You're in denial. Oh, well.[\quote]

That's a three syllable word for any thought too big for little minds.

Yeah, I'm a DC fanboy, that makes perfect sense.

You're a step beyond fanboy. I think they call it crazy haha.

There are some general psychological reactions that most people have to how a story is told. This a simple fact. It is not an insult to people's intelligence to say that people are acting like people.

Okay Dr.Phil.

You don't even KNOW that. You can GUESS that, but the only way for you to know with %100 confidence that it is a fact is if you have already seen the movie. Even then, it is up to your particular reaction and OPINION of the movie.

No, it probably has more to do with the director and the fact that the entire team from MoS is carrying over to BvS. The addition of Terrio only brings home the notion that this film is going to have even more serious idealogities worked in to the themes they will punch us in the face with. If you have any familiarity with the people involved in this film or any of their previous work, it's obviois. You're just being bone headed and arguementive.

the sentences together. I wrote "IMO" in front of that first sentence for a reason. I am not assuming anything.

You do nothing but assume and follow it up with "that's just fact" with your over the top philosophies.

So what. It really makes no difference. Mixing those movies together does not equate to a blockbuster. Watchmen didn't sell well. MoS was a bit average for that type of film. I don't know much at all about Argo.

We're not talking about Blockbuster. We're talking tone. Stop moving the goalposts to further regurgitate your intelligence of all things.

I'm sure the studio knows that.

You should write them a letter and fill them in, just in case.

You tell me. I wrote my guess a couple months ago. Why do you not want to post it on a forum?

I found it funny that you said it wouldn't meet my blockbuster box office expectations when I never posted my expectation. Again, nothing but assuming into what you think I'm thinking. You're a pro at it.

Not in the same way that Jimmy Kimmel is. That is my point. Putting a teaser on Gotham is directing it at a very specific group of fans. You can attempt to micro-analyze it, but you know it's not "soccer moms" as you said about the Kimmel audience.

Micro analyze. What an ironic statement coming from you

I don't know what you are talking about.

I know. You're way too busy listening to the voices in your head and then the sound of your own drum. It's evident.

Sorry, but that is all just typical movie hype.

So the first released photo of him is all movie hype too? Let me guess, that pic was just Momoa taking pictures of himself in his bathroom to be a dick and talk shit? Don't answer that. I'm afraid what you might come up with to downplay everything that photo has going for it.

[YoungJRNYfan]

I didn't say it would be. I said they would rely less on humor.

So how do you know this? Don't you have to watch the movie first or are you just assuming? Maybe you're just guessing and in denial of what you think or want to happen.

[YoungJRNYfan]

Not really. They are guilty of not reaching your expectations...but that's really about it.

They didn't meet a lot of people's expectations, maybe it's because they billed one of Iron Man's most well rounded villains and fan favorite as a true threat and a puppet master that everyone wanted to see and turned him into a stage actor! Talk about lieing to the audience? Good gawd that's painfully funny. Then they proceed to make Ultron look like a menacing villain that creeped people out in the trailer's and he turned out to be nothing but a robotic pun that had the most shoehorned humor of them all. You're delusional if you think otherwise but you fall right in line with the Marvel camp of bandwagoners who gives Marvel a free pass, even in the wake of obvious fuckups that fans quietly swipe under the rug. Delusional.

[Monker]

You're in denial. Oh, well.[\quote]

That's a three syllable word for any thought too big for little minds.

"Small words, from a small being, trying to attack what it doesn't understand." -- Borg Queen, ST:First Contact

Like I said, those lines from the trailer are good, but not all that impressive to me. It's been done before...and in some cases, like above IMO, done better.

You don't even KNOW that. You can GUESS that, but the only way for you to know with %100 confidence that it is a fact is if you have already seen the movie. Even then, it is up to your particular reaction and OPINION of the movie.

No, it probably has more to do with the director and the fact that the entire team from MoS is carrying over to BvS. The addition of Terrio only brings home the notion that this film is going to have even more serious idealogities worked in to the themes they will punch us in the face with. If you have any familiarity with the people involved in this film or any of their previous work, it's obviois. You're just being bone headed and arguementive.

No, I just know the difference between a fact and an opinion. What you are saying is just an opinion. There is no argument in that.

You do nothing but assume and follow it up with "that's just fact" with your over the top philosophies.

That's not true. If I am saying an opinion is a fact, call me out on it. You've tried but it really hasn't worked out very well for you so far.

We're not talking about Blockbuster. We're talking tone. Stop moving the goalposts to further regurgitate your intelligence of all things.

You are writing what you assume are the final product of the film creators and why you have that opinion. I'm just doing the exact same thing.

You tell me. I wrote my guess a couple months ago. Why do you not want to post it on a forum?

I found it funny that you said it wouldn't meet my blockbuster box office expectations when I never posted my expectation. Again, nothing but assuming into what you think I'm thinking. You're a pro at it.

Sure, I assume you feel BvS will be a big blockbuster movie. I assume you believe it will be the biggest movie of next summer. I make that assumption because of the high praise you constantly give it. Praise so lofty that I feel it can't meet those lofty words. So, if you don't think BvS will be a huge blockbuster then your expectations do not match your words.

Sorry, but that is all just typical movie hype.

So the first released photo of him is all movie hype too? Let me guess, that pic was just Momoa taking pictures of himself in his bathroom to be a dick and talk shit? Don't answer that. I'm afraid what you might come up with to downplay everything that photo has going for it.

It's a PHOTO. Not only that, it's a PROMOTIONAL photo. Should we judge his portrayal of Conan by his promo photos? Come on...you know better than that.

[Monker]

I didn't say it would be. I said they would rely less on humor.

So how do you know this? Don't you have to watch the movie first or are you just assuming? Maybe you're just guessing and in denial of what you think or want to happen.

If you go back to my original post, which we were both indirectly referring to, I said, "I don't think Civil War is going to rely on humor nearly as much as you expect," Therefore, again, I was just stating my opinion.

However, I believe this is true for many reasons.

First, the trailer indicates it...there is NO humor in it. Now, of course, they could cut up the movie and show anything they want in the trailer. That is absolutely true. But, if they truly want to represent the movie, then this movie is not going to have many funny moments.

Second, that is where they are in their over-all story arc. The last Avengers movie was a buddy movie. You all critique AoU for the goofy banter and such. I say that banter is there for a reason - to show they are all getting along and are buddies. There was very little friction between the hero characters. Then there is Ant-man and GotG which have a LOT of jokes. Those who have followed these movies are now set up for something more serious. Yes, humor can be a relief from a serious tone...but a light hearted mood can set up a serious tone and make it feel more serious than it would have otherwise.

Third, Bucky has a NINE movie contract. His origin story and "Hero's Journey" is happening through multiple films. In that story arc, his character is ready to emerge with a huge choice of whether to be a hero, or not. The best way for that to happen is for Captain America to die. CA is Bucky's Obi-wan type mentor...the best way to create drama is to kill the hero's mentor. That is not a funny thing.

Fourth, CA:TWS was not full of humor either so it is not what the Russo's want to use these characters for. Yes, they can change it up and make it something completely different. But, they are set up to make this type of movie.

Fifth, well, they are in almost direct competition with DC....so why not?

Now, do I KNOW all of that is what is going to happen and why? Absolutely not...but I have a very strong intuitive feeling and opinion that is what will happen and why.

[Monker]

Not really. They are guilty of not reaching your expectations...but that's really about it.

They didn't meet a lot of people's expectations, maybe it's because they billed one of Iron Man's most well rounded villains and fan favorite as a true threat and a puppet master that everyone wanted to see and turned him into a stage actor! Talk about lieing to the audience? Good gawd that's painfully funny. Then they proceed to make Ultron look like a menacing villain that creeped people out in the trailer's and he turned out to be nothing but a robotic pun that had the most shoehorned humor of them all. You're delusional if you think otherwise but you fall right in line with the Marvel camp of bandwagoners who gives Marvel a free pass, even in the wake of obvious fuckups that fans quietly swipe under the rug. Delusional.

The problem with this argument is that all of these movies are some of the largest grossing movies of all time. So, I don't think Marvel is counting the money lost by such critique. They are probably counting the money made in spite of such critique. In other words, I don't believe most movie goers agree with you.

[verslibre]

Not really. They are guilty of not reaching your expectations...but that's really about it.

Which, naturally, is your stock counterargument because these movies "make a lot of money."

Oh, please, Nolan is not the George Lucas of Comic Book film directors.

Definitely not. Nolan is far and away a better director. There is no danger of Nolan presenting his equivalent of The Phantom Menace. His scenes don't need to be redressed with gobs of CGI in order to look halfway good. Nolan knows where to point his cameras and he gets much better performances out of his cast. He doesn't say "Faster!" and "More intense!" over and over.

I don't see anything specific in CA:TWS that made me think of Batman. In fact, it seems a bit silly and a joke.

It's pretty arrogant and egotistical of you to think there isn't anything you could possibly overlook. Watch the movie again. Watch the Civil War trailer again. Ross' remarks about vigilantism are practically an ode to Batman. And before you say "vigilantism is a theme that goes back a lot further than Batman," just remember we are discussing tropes that bounce around comics and CBMs a lot. But some themes are practically intrinsic to Batman in the genre, which is why Marvel has attempted to create their version of him multiple times over (no, not Cap). Again, this also has to do with the Registration Act.

I didn't say it would be. I said they would rely less on humor.

The Captain America films do not rely on humor the way the Iron Man and Ant-Man movies do. This isn't news. I would like forthcoming MCU films to follow suit, though. There is no room for forced humor in the realms of Black Panther and Dr. Strange.

The last I read, Chris Evans contract is up after this film...and Stan still has a lot more films to complete his.

Incorrect. He has a six-film contract which includes Infinity War (which is one big movie, split into two). It doesn't count his cameo in the second Thor flick. So, no, I don't think Cap is going to eat it in Civil War.

Source: http://collider.com/chris-evans-marvel-contract/

They are not telling that story. Why can you not understand that what works in one medium does not always work in another.

They ARE telling a compressed version of it, you big baby!

I can already see what they are doing. They are building up the emotional connection between these characters so when CA dies, it will have a huge emotional impact on Bucky, Iron Man, and the audience who is invested in the story and emotion between those character.

Yeah, you and everybody else. See my link above where he talks about his contract.

That is the very problem with BvS that I have been harping on for so long...it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to have built up the same degree of investment in Superman/Batman/audience that Marvel has done.

Never mind that the subtitle of BvS is Dawn of Justice. You do know what "dawn" means, right? Second, Batman is an extremely familiar character. He comes pre-built. And what are you still freaking out about? That Batman and Superman have a throwdown?

If they don't, they need to negotiate a new contract with Chris Evans.

His contract is current.

[verslibre]

The problem with this argument is that all of these movies are some of the largest grossing movies of all time. So, I don't think Marvel is counting the money lost by such critique. They are probably counting the money made in spite of such critique. In other words, I don't believe most movie goers agree with you.

When you end up loving Star Trek Beyond more than your firstborn, and it tanks at the box office and kills hopes of any more Trek movies, don't cry in your Beerios.

[Monker]

The problem with this argument is that all of these movies are some of the largest grossing movies of all time. So, I don't think Marvel is counting the money lost by such critique. They are probably counting the money made in spite of such critique. In other words, I don't believe most movie goers agree with you.

When you end up loving Star Trek Beyond more than your firstborn, and it tanks at the box office and kills hopes of any more Trek movies, don't cry in your Beerios.

Hmmm, that's interesting and impossible since I haven't been very interested in this at all. Maybe it's because they screwed up khan. If "they" (meaning JJ, the studio, and everybody involved) can't ensure on getting a Khan movie right, then I don't have much faith in them. And, it's a reboot into some weird alternate timeline...I was never too fond of that idea anyway.

Plus, there will be a new Trek series coming out soon.

[Monker]

Not really. They are guilty of not reaching your expectations...but that's really about it.

Which, naturally, is your stock counterargument because these movies "make a lot of money."

In this case, it's not because they "make a lot of money". It's because you are saying they are "guilty" of something where you are playing judge and jury...and what they are really "guilty" of is your negative opinion.

Oh, please, Nolan is not the George Lucas of Comic Book film directors.

Definitely not. Nolan is far and away a better director.

Not the point. The point is Star Wars is generally given credit for reinvigorating the entire scifi genre...and Lucas was at the helm of that. In that way, Nolan is not George Lucas.

There is no danger of Nolan presenting his equivalent of The Phantom Menace.

There you go again making definitive statements of fact, which are nothing but your opinion.

10yrs ago, people would have said the same thing about Peter Jackson and LotR. Now some people critique the Hobbit in the same way as many people critique the SW prequels.

There is always a potential to fall from perceived greatness.

It's pretty arrogant and egotistical of you to think there isn't anything you could possibly overlook.

The bottom line is I don't believe Nolan has much influence at all over the Russo's. After I posted that I did look it up and there is an interview out there where they do talk about their influences. They talk about a lot of things, but they don't mention Nolan or Batman at all. IMO, they wanted to take influences from outside the genre and bring them in. The one movie they mentioned above all others was Rocky. I found that odd at first, until they explained it. You are telling this story about a superhero...a being that has all of these amazing powers. So, for a fight to have any meaningful impact, he has to get beat up pretty good. In Rocky, it's not about winning. At the end, all he has to do is be standing. He may be battered beyond recognition, but he is still standing at the end and ready to go another round. That's what Captain America represent...he gets shot, he gets stabbed, all these things...but he still goes back for more. In fact, in the first Avengers movie, he gets blast in the gut, Thor takes out whoever did it, helps him up and says, "You ready to go another round?" I have to wonder if they made that reference intentionally.

Watch the Civil War trailer again. Ross' remarks about vigilantism are practically an ode to Batman.

When I originally saw it a while back, I knew that was going to come up in this thread. I don't know if it was intentional or not, but I knew some people were going to take it as a reference to Batman.

The Captain America films do not rely on humor the way the Iron Man and Ant-Man movies do.

Iron Man by his very nature is a sarcastic ass. That is part of who he is. So, I believe it would be totally against his character to be serious all the time, or even most of the time. I have already written here that Ant-Man is a stupid idea for a movie. I don't see how they could have made it any other way then to fill it with jokes and not take itself seriously at all. I would have preferred they had skipped Ant-Man and made some other movie instead.

The last I read, Chris Evans contract is up after this film...and Stan still has a lot more films to complete his.

Incorrect. He has a six-film contract which includes Infinity War (which is one big movie, split into two). It doesn't count his cameo in the second Thor flick. So, no, I don't think Cap is going to eat it in Civil War.

You're right, he has this and one more film. But, I do believe he will die in Civil War...not at the end, tho...about 3/4 of the way through. Just because he has one more film does not mean it is not a long way off....like the second Infinity War movie.

That is the very problem with BvS that I have been harping on for so long...it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to have built up the same degree of investment in Superman/Batman/audience that Marvel has done.

Never mind that the subtitle of BvS is Dawn of Justice. You do know what "dawn" means, right? Second, Batman is an extremely familiar character. He comes pre-built. And what are you still freaking out about? That Batman and Superman have a throwdown?

We have already had this discussion. There is FAR too much that they will have to cover in the first act of this movie. They have introduce an aging and angry Batman - a character that nobody has seen before, at least not on film...and somehow get the audience to buy in and care about him. They have to reintroduce the new Superman and remind the audience they care about him. They have to introduce this relationship between the two of them and get the audience to care about that. They have to introduce Lex and any other villains and get the audience to understand the conflict between them and the heroes.

All of that needs to happen within the first 45mins of the film - before they even start fighting, or you will have a 3hr film, at least. Good luck with that.

What Marvel did was to take a HUGE portion of all that and put it in other movies so now Civil War can concentrate on, well, the Civil War. They do not have to spend so much time on backstory and character introductions and the like, it's already been done. They can spend time on the STORY...why Captain America and Iron Man's differences became so great they are now fighting each other, why the new laws for registration are happening, why each hero chose the side they chose. They may even be able to afford some time to set up the Inhumas movie, or other movies. In short, Marvel has a lot of breathing space to tell the story they want - DC does not and will probably have to crunch a lot of things.

[YoungJRNYfan]

With a good writer with the credentials of Terrio, there's certainly a way they can make the audience care about these characters from the get-go. You don't need to have 4 drawn out movies to get the point across or to set up chemistry with the story that gets the audience invested. Besides, this is a Universe. We're going to get up to 10 movies with these characters so with a good writer, Terrio is going to set a good foundation and have those moments to invest in. That's why they brought him in. It's no different than a stand alone film with many characters, often new ones that were made up with no history that come before where you easily connect with. A good write and storytelling covers those bases. Let's not act like this needs to be drawn out to have the audience care. If it's written well, audiences will buy it. Besides, a Batman/Superman movie sells itself and a showdown between the titular hero's is what people want to see. Ontop of it, they'll get why they're at odds in the story. There's no problems getting people invested than they already are with being intrigued with these two hero's on screen for the first time. They're legends.

[verslibre]

Besides, a Batman/Superman movie sells itself

That's the beginning AND end of the discussion, right there, Monker's nitpicking notwithstanding.

'Sides, I've not seen ANY other movie — short of, probably, The Dark Knight — generate discussion the way Man of Steel does. There is yet another blow-by-blow going on right now at CBR over the Zod-Superman fight.

[YoungJRNYfan]

Besides, a Batman/Superman movie sells itself

That's the beginning AND end of the discussion, right there, Monker's nitpicking notwithstanding.

'Sides, I've not seen ANY other movie — short of, probably, The Dark Knight — generate discussion the way Man of Steel does. There is yet another blow-by-blow going on right now at CBR over the Zod-Superman fight.

It's actually pretty crazy. You're talking going on 3 straight years where people are still finding new ways to debate that movie. MOS has been circular and no matter what is said, good or bad, it creates lofty discussion and it has been consistent in many forms. That's big in a genre to have that great debate .

For the record, I'm done on those forums until March. I'm staying away as more spoilers are evident to appear. The Comic Con trailer and the Trailer #2 gave me more than enough to survive on. Bring on March.

[Monker]

With a good writer with the credentials of Terrio, there's certainly a way they can make the audience care about these characters from the get-go.

You're right. They can make it a four hour movie, or they can continue using shortcuts like the shock drama of unexpectedly breaking people's necks. And, in either case they are not going to achieve the emotional investment that Marvel has.

You don't need to have 4 drawn out movies to get the point across or to set up chemistry with the story that gets the audience invested.

It's not just making a point or setting up chemistry. I have repeatedly said "emotional investment". In the Marvel trailer we hear Iron Man say, "We were friends, too." That entire scene is gut wrenching with only a few mediocre lines. Not because some point was made or chemistry between characters exists, It's because we very deeply understand CA's deep connection and devotion to Bucky and their friendship. We also deeply understand the somewhat rocky relationship between CA and Iron Man. So, in two short sentences in an exchange between CA and Iron Man we have the knife shoved in our gut and then twisted when we realize Iron Man said "were" instead of "are".

THAT is emotional investment between the characters and the audience. That is not something that can be matured in the few short minutes that BvS will have at their expense. You'll get some shock drama moment, like Robin dying in the Wayne building collapse...and Batman becoming pissed off. And, that's really about it...because they don't have the time to develop anything else.

Besides, this is a Universe. We're going to get up to 10 movies with these characters so with a good writer, Terrio is going to set a good foundation and have those moments to invest in.

My point is, and always will be, that the foundation should have already been set up so we cared that Batman and Superman are fighting. Right now, the only reason we care is because we get to see a fight scene. As I have said, that is no different than Alien vs Predator, King Kong vs Godzilla, Freddy vs Jason. People don't care or see an in depth relationship between those characters....they just want to see a fight.

That's why they brought him in. It's no different than a stand alone film with many characters, often new ones that were made up with no history that come before where you easily connect with.

It's a lot different. "Guardians of the Galaxy", for example, was an origin story. It was not an origin story for Star-Lord, but of the Guardians themselves, as a team. It followed the "Hero's Journey" perfectly...but for the TEAM, not one individual. So, first act was all about introducing the individuals. We get to see each of them in their own element, their "normal" selves. Then we get to see them interact with each other, and they hate each other. By the time the leave the prison, they MUST work together and find the orb. That ends the first act. The first Avengers movie was the same way...except some/most of the hero's already had a history with the audience.

BvS is completely different. We have two "hero" characters who we are introduced to. Batman becomes all pissy. Superman becomes misunderstood. Lex Luthor is introduced and cackles a bit. The heroes fight, maybe antagonized a bit by Lex. And, according to you we are already supposed to know and care about Batman and Superman. Lex reanimates Zod into the fire breathing Abomination which they both have to fight...Superman because, well, it's really Zod, and Batman because it's in Gotham.. THAT is the first act. At some point in the second act they stop fighting and decide, or are forced, to work together, even though they just spent the entire first act and more showing you how much they hate each other, due to fighting a common enemy. Wonder Woman magically appears to help defeat the fire breathing Abomination. That ends the second act. The third act I suppose will be the three coming together realizing they may have differences but they are better off fighting these evil things together than critiquing and fighting each other...and they realize that the Abomination was only a tool and Lex Luthor is who they need to come together to fight...and so begins the Justice League.

That is what it seems BvS is trying to do...it is not the same - at all - as a team story. And, it is NOT following the Hero's Journey which is FUNDAMENTAL in almost EVERY Hollywood blockbuster ever made. The first act is FAR too long and has too much to tell.

A good write and storytelling covers those bases.

A good writer understands the psychology involved and understands why it works, and the history...and follows it. A good writer knows there is no such thing as reinventing how good stories are written or told. A good writer can follow these historic patterns but make it so invisible that you do not even know it's a story you have seen a thousand times but with different characters in a different setting. A good writer does not need to use shortcuts like shock drama to save time because he has too much to fit in the story...or is just lazy.

Besides, a Batman/Superman movie sells itself and a showdown between the titular hero's is what people want to see.

Yes, but if that is all they get, then it will probably get mediocre reviews, and mediocre sales after the first couple weeks when those reviews start coming in.

Ontop of it, they'll get why they're at odds in the story. There's no problems getting people invested than they already are with being intrigued with these two hero's on screen for the first time. They're legends.

It doesn't make any difference. If you took this story and substituted different characters, I doubt any studio would buy it, invest in making the movie, and release it. Just because it sells a bit because It is Batman and Superman sharing a screen does not mean it is going to be a good movie, or that it will be competition with Marvel and Civil War, which seems to have done it right.

[YoungJRNYfan]

Deeply, deeply, deeply emotionally invested. Lol, you sound like a stay at home mom on her rag watching the Hallmark channel. Try not to get hot flash' s in the theater when a bullet goes through Cap's head . I've never seen somebody write so much but really have nothing to say at all. It's just a bunch of words trying to sounds intelligent for your own good. I'll still breakdown some things I still think your fundamentally wrong about once I get a chance when I'm not navigating on my phone. Seriously, I'm really trying to read your shit but by the time I'm halfway through it, I'm tired and lose interest. You're just throwing common sense stuff together and passing it off as groundbreaking knowledge.