DC Extended Universe THREAD

[The_Noble_Cause]

They couldn't have made Civil War as the 2nd film because people would've been so lost.

Sounds like good, but too late, advice to DC about BvS and Justice League.

That was one of the points made in that article comparing CW and B v S.

Ah. Didn't read it. BvS barely functions as a movie. Civil War has to be better. Very sad.

[RedWingFan]

Yeah. Don't read it til you see CW. Its posted in the marvel thread too.

[verslibre]

They couldn't have made Civil War as the 2nd film because people would've been so lost.

Sounds like good, but too late, advice to DC about BvS and Justice League.

FYI, Justice League isn't the second movie, nor the third, nor the fourth movie in the DCEU.

[verslibre]

BvS barely functions as a movie.

Puhleez.

[YoungJRNYfan]

Yeah. Don't read it til you see CW. Its posted in the marvel thread too.

The reason why I brought it in here was because the article is clearly a hate piece and direct shot at BvS than it was to praise Civil War (which is the point of the Marvel thread.) It's funny how you create the Marvel thread out of "respect" for this thread so it doesn't get "off topic" but go ahead and drop that type of article in there to clearly troll this thread in particular. Hell, I even tried to respect the Marvel thread by engaging in some of the things in CW without provoking flame wars, but clearly nobody is interested in those discussions. The interest is to troll BvS at every cost rather than talk the merits of CW on its own. Time to admit it's more fun this way and these talks will go as far as the DCEU takes us. The DCEU is needed because clearly, the rage and fanboy back and forth has become the norm and it shows. Just remember it can be avoided at times because God knows there's enough BvS hate in here to last us a lifetime. CW just came out and all the energy is focused on how bad it makes BvS look. That's telling. BRING ON SUICIDE SQUAD.

[verslibre]

The Forbes article is click-bait (the guy has books for sale on Amazon). I just commented on it in the Marvel thread, but I'm sure the Three Musketeers will gloss right over it.

[The_Noble_Cause]

FYI, Justice League isn't the second movie, nor the third, nor the fourth movie in the DCEU.

BvsS was the second film after MOS. The Justice League moments in BvsS felt forced and were not done very well. Some scenes, like Cyborg's origin, almost felt as if they were filmed by second unit.

The DCEU keeps changing dates around (GL has been postponed to 2020! MOS 2 has been postponed to NEVER!) so you really don't know what film will be third or fourth. Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman are probably up next. Doesn't change anything I said. This is a cinematic universe that didn't lay the groundwork and is based on a foundation of lowered expectations and sand.

[The_Noble_Cause]

BvS barely functions as a movie.

Puhleez.

It's an incoherent clip show. Characters do things inexplicably. It reminds me of the Ralph Fiennes & Uma Thurman Avengers film. That too made no sense and had been edited beyond watchability.

[verslibre]

FYI, Justice League isn't the second movie, nor the third, nor the fourth movie in the DCEU.

BvsS was the second film after MOS.

Justice League Part 1 is the fifth.

The Justice League moments in BvsS felt forced and were not done very well. Some scenes, like Cyborg's origin, almost felt as if they were filmed by second unit.

They were supposed to have a lo-fi feel feel. The Flash footage came off a security cam. Same for Diana's. Vic Stone's dad was recording himself. What exactly were you expecting?

The DCEU keeps changing dates around

So does Marvel. All studios do it.

Inhumans — now off the slate.
Captain Marvel — on the slate, off the slate, back on, pushed back.
Thor: Ragnarok — held off after TDW didn't perform to expectations, then finally got a 2017 date (4 years later).
Black Panther — got moved up.

Suicide Squad and Wonder Woman are probably up next.

Probably? Squad's in August, Wonder Woman (which just wrapped) is next year, before JL1.

[RedWingFan]

Yeah. Don't read it til you see CW. Its posted in the marvel thread too.

The reason why I brought it in here was because the article is clearly a hate piece and direct shot at BvS than it was to praise Civil War (which is the point of the Marvel thread.) It's funny how you create the Marvel thread out of "respect" for this thread so it doesn't get "off topic" but go ahead and drop that type of article in there to clearly troll this thread in particular. Hell, I even tried to respect the Marvel thread by engaging in some of the things in CW without provoking flame wars, but clearly nobody is interested in those discussions. The interest is to troll BvS at every cost rather than talk the merits of CW on its own. Time to admit it's more fun this way and these talks will go as far as the DCEU takes us. The DCEU is needed because clearly, the rage and fanboy back and forth has become the norm and it shows. Just remember it can be avoided at times because God knows there's enough BvS hate in here to last us a lifetime. CW just came out and all the energy is focused on how bad it makes BvS look. That's telling. BRING ON SUICIDE SQUAD.

Geeze dude. You're pretty sensitive. You must be hearing B v S hate from a lot more places than here. The article was a comparison of the film's with similar plots. I didn't know there was a rule on where it should go. Don't worry you'll get a couple more DC films to enjoy. Maybe more people will like them so you won't have to keep swimming upstream.

[verslibre]

Hey, RWF, why are you ignoring my posts in the Marvel thread?

Are you pulling a Monker?

[The_Noble_Cause]

Justice League Part 1 is the fifth.

Maybe. Maybe not. You're assuming that DC/WB follows their tentative release schedule, which is not likely. Already, movies are being moved up or bumped back.

They were supposed to have a lo-fi feel feel. The Flash footage came off a security cam. Same for Diana's. Vic Stone's dad was recording himself. What exactly were you expecting?

Right. Suuuure. When the dust settles, Snyder will probably admit that Tsujihara went around his back and hired Uwe Boll to direct those. They didn't come across as lo-fi. They came across as straight-up amateur.

So does Marvel. All studios do it.

Marvel took the gamble and built up their cinematic universe movie-by-movie. DC didn't do that. Don't change the subject.

Probably? Squad's in August, Wonder Woman (which just wrapped) is next year, before JL1.

Maybe. Maybe not. Suicide Squad is pretty much locked in. Everything else is up in the air.

[verslibre]

Justice League Part 1 is the fifth.

Maybe. Maybe not. You're assuming that DC/WB follows their tentative release schedule, which is not likely. Already, movies are being moved up or bumped back.

SS is done, dude. It's coming out in August. League comes after WW. That's not changing. EDIT: The only thing they're figuring out is when The Batman will land.

WW is in the can and moving into post.

[

They were supposed to have a lo-fi feel feel. The Flash footage came off a security cam. Same for Diana's. Vic Stone's dad was recording himself. What exactly were you expecting?

Right. Suuuure. When the dust settles, Snyder will probably admit that Tsujihara went around his back and hired Uwe Boll to direct those. They didn't come across as lo-fi. They came across as straight-up amateur.

Again, what are you talking about? Those were security cam feeds. They're supposed to be stationary. You must be confoozled.

[

So does Marvel. All studios do it.

Marvel took the gamble and built up their cinematic universe movie-by-movie. DC didn't do that. Don't change the subject.

You're deflecting. I wrote ALL studios do it.

[

Probably? Squad's in August, Wonder Woman (which just wrapped) is next year, before JL1.

Maybe. Maybe not. Suicide Squad is pretty much locked in. Everything else is up in the air.

Squad's been a lock for some time.

[YoungJRNYfan]

Yeah. Don't read it til you see CW. Its posted in the marvel thread too.

The reason why I brought it in here was because the article is clearly a hate piece and direct shot at BvS than it was to praise Civil War (which is the point of the Marvel thread.) It's funny how you create the Marvel thread out of "respect" for this thread so it doesn't get "off topic" but go ahead and drop that type of article in there to clearly troll this thread in particular. Hell, I even tried to respect the Marvel thread by engaging in some of the things in CW without provoking flame wars, but clearly nobody is interested in those discussions. The interest is to troll BvS at every cost rather than talk the merits of CW on its own. Time to admit it's more fun this way and these talks will go as far as the DCEU takes us. The DCEU is needed because clearly, the rage and fanboy back and forth has become the norm and it shows. Just remember it can be avoided at times because God knows there's enough BvS hate in here to last us a lifetime. CW just came out and all the energy is focused on how bad it makes BvS look. That's telling. BRING ON SUICIDE SQUAD.

Geeze dude. You're pretty sensitive. You must be hearing B v S hate from a lot more places than here. The article was a comparison of the film's with similar plots. I didn't know there was a rule on where it should go. Don't worry you'll get a couple more DC films to enjoy. Maybe more people will like them so you won't have to keep swimming upstream.

You sound like one of those bitchplaining Superman fans that whined about Superman not taking the Zod fight out of Metropolis when it was clear that he did indeed do so. I simply Zod'd you and brought the fight back to its proper place. I think it's pretty clear we're having a blast going back and forth here so I refuse to let you pull the "sensitive" card. I'll fight you basta's all day (seriously what changed? ) but since you act like it's sports and if you're going to trash BvS, then I atleast want home field, dammit. Other boards are way more wilder than MR. This is cake. Judging by how you freaked out when I posted an earlier article (in the correct place) and how you went apeshit, you wouldn't last two seconds with the more vicious nerds that DO take it personal.

For the record, the content of my post was pointing out the fact nobody wants to talk CW without crapping on BvS. Just addressing the obvious.

[verslibre]

"bitchsplaining"

[YoungJRNYfan]

Marvel took the gamble and built up their cinematic universe movie-by-movie. DC didn't do that. Don't change the subject.

DC/WB is taking the gamble by not doing it Marvel's way (that is proven to be successful.) How is their approach any different to what Marvel did, especially after The Incredible Hulk bombed just 2 films in? A gamble is a gamble and gamble's need time to develop. More eyes are on these connected Universe's now because one successfully exists; something Marvel never competed against.

Contrary to what you make it sound, there is a possibility that Batman V Superman is one movie that happens to be building to something bigger, even AFTER Justice League 1, no?

[YoungJRNYfan]

like Cyborg's origin, almost felt as if they were filmed by second unit.

It's supposed to seem that way. Hidden camera's/security feeds typically are meant to give off those visual vibes. And that wasn't Cyborg's origin. It was a cameo. We simply have no clue about anything surrounding that cameo or how he got there.

The DCEU keeps changing dates around (GL has been postponed to 2020!)

How can it be postponed to 2020 when it was originally slated IN 2020? The original slate had GLC's coming out in June 2020. It's now slated to come out in July. A one month pushback isn't that big of a deal, especially when Zack Snyder made it PERFECTLY clear, WAY before BvS that Green Lantern wouldn't be appearing in BvS OR (possibly) JL1.

so you really don't know what film will be third or fourth.

Huh? Get your shit together, TNC. Suicide Squad is a wrap and will be coming out in August. Speaking of dates being changed, Wonder Woman was recently moved up SEVERAL weeks to be DC's 4th film heading into Justice League Part 1.

This is a cinematic universe that didn't lay the groundwork and is based on a foundation of lowered expectations and sand.

Speaking of sand, get your head out of it. There is nothing but high standards when it comes to Superman and Batman (in case you haven't noticed.) It's evident how much of the fanbase lets many (of the same) faults in the MCU slide while the DCEU is currently getting nitpicked to absolute nausea. If anything, the expectations are so high, it seems fans won't allow them to be met or succeed when pitting the two together...yet.

(..MOS 2 has been postponed to NEVER!)

DC/WB came out with yet another untitled film on their slate ontop of the other 2. It's widely suggested that atleast one of those untitled films could and should be Man of Steel 2 (or the next Superman solo film; however they will title it) and that's become popular belief. It's yet to be seen, but you nothing can be said with certainty until things are made more clear.

[The_Noble_Cause]

It's supposed to seem that way. Hidden camera's/security feeds typically are meant to give off those visual vibes. And that wasn't Cyborg's origin. It was a cameo. We simply have no clue about anything surrounding that cameo or how he got there.

Thank you for explaining that. For a second, I thought Batman vs. Superman was a 12 hour Ken Burns documentary on the costume industry.

EVERYBODY understands that the footage of the Justice League was NOT supposed to look like Lawrence of Arabia and was intended to be captured raw CCTV footage. I'm not the first to say it was embarrassing. Joe Morton pacing back and forth wringing his hands as his son screamed in the background looked like a scene from my local haunted hayride. Realistic and raw is the not the same as having sub SYFY Channel Original production values.

How can it be postponed to 2020 when it was originally slated IN 2020? The original slate had GLC's coming out in June 2020. It's now slated to come out in July.

No, Green Lantern Corps was scheduled for June 2019. It's been bumped (along with other WB films). Deal with it.

Huh? Get your shit together, TNC. Suicide Squad is a wrap and will be coming out in August. Speaking of dates being changed, Wonder Woman was recently moved up SEVERAL weeks to be DC's 4th film heading into Justice League Part 1.

Crystal ball, eh? Batman vs Superman was delayed from July to May to March. So the idea that anything is set in stone is ridiculous. If Suicide bombs, you can expect Wonder Woman to have its premiere at your local Walmart bargain bin right alongside a $5.99 dvd of Harry and the Hendersons and an eight season boxset of Diagnosis Murder.

Speaking of sand, get your head out of it. There is nothing but high standards when it comes to Superman and Batman (in case you haven't noticed.)

LMAO. Is that why the creative mastermind behind the DC Universe, Snyder, just got unceremoniously demoted? Do all "high standard" films come with a 27% RT rating? BvsS, the lynchpin behind all future DC films, was received as warmly as a sudden diarrhea attack while fucking (and since DC fans are all about receptive anal, this analogy should hit home).

DC/WB came out with yet another untitled film on their slate ontop of the other 2. It's widely suggested that atleast one of those untitled films could and should be Man of Steel 2 (or the next Superman solo film; however they will title it) and that's become popular belief. It's yet to be seen, but you nothing can be said with certainty until things are made more clear.

If you can't see that as corporatspeak for "never fucking happening", I can't help you. If Man of Steel was popular enough to merit a solo sequel, it would've been greenlighted ASAP just like the Batfleck film.

[YoungJRNYfan]

Joe Morton pacing back and forth wringing his hand as his son screamed in the background looked like a scene from my local haunted hayride.

Damn! Your haunted hayrides must be psychedelic. Let us in on that shit

No, Green Lantern Corps was scheduled for June 2019. It's been bumped (along with other WB films). Deal with it.

Wrong-o. GL/GLC was scheduled for June 19th, 2020. It recently got pushed back to July of 2020. Just remember A-B-C is as easy as 1-2-3.

http://www.slashfilm.com/dc-movie-slate-revealed/
http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/10/15/ ... rough-2020

Crystal ball, eh? Batman vs Superman was delayed from July to May to March. So the idea that anything is set in stone is ridiculous. If Suicide bombs, you can expect Wonder Woman to have its premiere at your local Walmart bargain bin right alongside a $5.99 dvd of Harry and the Hendersons and an eight season boxset of Diagnosis Murder.

Doubtful.

Is that why the creative mastermind behind the DC Universe, Snyder, just got unceremoniously demoted?

Demoted? Zack Snyder is a director first and foremost and it's never going to hurt to add more producers on these films (especially how WB/DC doesn't got a Kevin Feige to overlook every creative decision.) Zack Snyder is still doing Justice League Part 1 and (for now) Justice League Part 2, but is ALSO tending to other projects. Demotion will only happen in the directors chair. If anything, I wouldn't mind seeing WB go get a Feige to over-see everything. Snyder simply can't do it being a director at heart (It would be cool to see Bruce Timm get a shot as the DCEU over-see'er and to take pressure off Zack. The more help, the merrier. That's not necessarily a bad thing.)

Besides, Snyder isn't at this alone. WB/DC is allowing their respective director's have say in creative input as long as they on course to the interconnected story. The braintrust is Snyder, Debbie Snyder, Charles Roven, Geoff Johns and now Affleck.

Do all "high standard" films come with a 27% RT rating?

Film critics nowadays have way too much power. We live in a cinematic fairy-world where the loyalties of a critic are questioned by the sheer ridiculousness of Hollywood and the perks that come with internet celebrity or blogging. Subjectivity still rules and every asshole with an opinion is heard. It's smoke and mirrors and an abusive tool. Afterall, these are comic book movies and we will be seeing more of the DCEU. That's ultimatley all that matters to the fans of these characters.

the lynchpin behind all future DC films, was received as warmly as a sudden diarrhea attack while fucking (and since DC fans are all about receptive anal, this analogy should hit home).

And so was Green Lantern, which you liked. I'm sure you don't give a shit. Neither do I.

If you can't see that as corporatspeak for "never fucking happening", I can't help you. If Man of Steel was popular enough to merit a solo sequel, it would've been greenlighted ASAP just like the Batfleck film.

Logically, Superman already had his solo film. Batfleck's film will be his first and so will Wondy's and the rest of the team. Lets wait until after Justice League 1 where the next DC version of a phase will begin (Chris Terrio touched upon this, citing Man of Steel-JLP1 as a saga.) Everything is still on the table at the moment no matter how bad you want to prove otherwise without it being fact. Lets wait and see.

[Monker]

BvS barely functions as a movie.

Puhleez.

It's an incoherent clip show. Characters do things inexplicably. It reminds me of the Ralph Fiennes & Uma Thurman Avengers film. That too made no sense and had been edited beyond watchability.

And, it was also incredibly boring...and a huge disappointment because I love the old Avengers series.

[Monker]

Hey, RWF, why are you ignoring my posts in the Marvel thread?

Are you pulling a Monker?

Wow, you are such a diva.

[Monker]

That said, the DCEU is just kicking off. Snyder touched upon the issue of Batman V Superman always going to be a dark film that fit right in to the story they are telling with these specific circumstances (The Batman; Gotham, etc) but that's not to say everything will be done the same way. The DCEU is two Snyder-films in and it will deconstruct. It will make much more sense later as it's a huge saga. BvS may have not worked for many, hell, even Man of Steel, but future films could make up for that at a speedy pace since the bigger overall picture is meant to be one big story. The introduction of different characters will help that cause. Patience is key right now for the DCEU to hit its stride. It will.

Exactly. The first film reintroduced Superman. The second film continued the story, while reintroducing Batman, and featuring Wonder Woman in action.

That is just bullshit. The "Lord of the Rings" is huge undertaking in storytelling but you did not have to wait until "Return of the King" for "Fellowship of the Ring" to make sense. What you are saying above is Snyder is such a horrible story teller, and BvS is such a horrible move that it will take multiple sequels for the film to make sense. It's a crappy movie in the middle of what seems like a series of crappy movies that feature crappy story telling...wrapped around characters and a "story" that people very much want to see. Yeah, BvS is a 'tragedy'...but for the audience, not Superman.

Civil War is the 13th MCU film and honestly, the two films shouldn't even be compared, in spite of what people say. They couldn't have made Civil War as the 2nd film because people would've been so lost.

Btw, Civil War needs to make even more than BvS to hit a profit. They're not letting on about what it really cost. 250 million, my ass. That movie looked expensive! Daniel Bruhl (who played Zemo) said the budget "was so huge that you could make twenty films from it." (Then factor in the bazinga marketing.)

First, it's WB's fault that they took a story that should have been many films into their universe and put it second. Marvel did it right, DC screwed it up.

The fact is that Civil War WILL make a lot more money that BvS. It will make at least 200 million dollars more and cross the one billion dollar mark...which BvS won't do.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Wrong-o. GL/GLC was scheduled for June 19th, 2020. It recently got pushed back to July of 2020. Just remember A-B-C is as easy as 1-2-3.

You're right. I apologize. The articles I read today about Green Lantern and Godzilla 2 being bumped back mentioned JL being released in 2019. GL is and always was 2020. I misread. My bad!

[Monker]

Why is Squad going to fall flat?

Because the entire film looks like shit.

How will Apocalypse outsell BvS when there's not a ton of buzz for it

Because it actually looks like a good film. You sit on your ass and let how well something is trending determine how you believe a film will do...but you don't realize that trending and "buzz" could mean anything, including a large number of people arguing how shitty a movie looks.

and DoFP didn't even earn a profit at the box office?

So what? I didn't see it in the theater either because it looked lame to me. And, IMO, it and First Class are fairly mediocre.

Btw, Deadpool was the first superhero movie in YEARS to make that kind of money (profitwise) for Fox. Don't act like the X-franchise is suddenly converting moviegoers everywhere. Spin, spin, spin! [/quote]

IMO, Apocalypse looks like the best X-Men film that has been offered, including the original series.

Deadpool was a needed parody of the genre...FOX nailed it, perfect timing.

But, whatever...my question still stands: If all these movies outsell BvS, what does it mean for WB/DC? It makes DC and WB look like fourth rate hacks. And, yes, I do believe it could happen.

[RedWingFan]

Here's another review by a DC hating hack I suppose. Don't know if I should put it here or in the Marvel Thread. Guess here will do. http://www.aintitcool.com/node/75126

Ahoy, squirts! Quint here. One thing I hate about the current state of online film discussion is that most people feel the need to put one movie down in order to hold another movie up. That's not necessary, it's mean-spirited and really, aggressively dickish.

You're allowed to like more than one thing at a time and most of the time these comparisons are so surface level that I just end up scratching my head trying to figure out why the comparison was made in the first place.

So, you'll have to forgive me when I say that Captain America: Civil War is everything Batman V Superman wanted to be and failed at. I guess I'm that guy this time and I really tried to find a way to talk about Civil War without bringing up WB's misfire, but I just couldn't do it.

In my defense the two films are essentially the same story, but one has almost a decade of cinematic character work to color the narrative and the other tried to rush it and it shows.

That time-taking on Marvel's part is so beautiful here. If this was our first time meeting Tony Stark he'd probably seem like a huge dick for pushing the Sokovia Accords so hard, but his backstory isn't hinted at. We've seen him go from weapons dealer to top of the world with power to his humbling in Avengers and the domino effect that PTSD has had on him through two more movies.

The reason the Russos can take a movie with what feels like a bazillion characters and make it work is we've already established a relationship with these guys and gals. Not their comic book counterparts, these actors playing these characters in this universe. We don't need to explain why Hawkeye pulls his punches with Black Widow. We don't need to explain why Wanda feels isolated and alone, so when Vision actively engages with her that bond is palpable and instant. We don't need a speech from Steve Rogers about how Bucky is more than just a friend, but his only remaining connection to his past. All that is understood, so when the chess pieces start moving you know everybody's motivations.

That's not to give all the credit of success to the long-form storytelling, by the way. You can't credit that for the reason why Black Panther and Spider-Man are so damn good here. Spidey might be able to lean on his origin being so well ingrained in pop culture that his entrance to this MCU can be done and done perfectly in two small, simple, character-driven funny scenes, I'll give you that, but Black Panther is a different story.

I was pretty obsessive with Marvel books when I was a kid and I know very little about Black Panther. I just knew him from his occasional crossovers, never read his own book and that's someone who was actively reading for a big chunk of his development. T'Challa is so naturally ingrained in the events of this story and ends up with one of the best emotional character arcs of the story that you accept him as a character and understand immediately how he fits into this world.

While I'm trying hard not to keep dragging BvS into this discussion, but this is a big parallel. Black Panther means something to the story and when he's called to action you understand why, even if he is misguided. Wonder Woman looked awesome in BvS and her fighting style was cool, but why the fuck was she there other than to set her up for her own movie? Her big through line was she wanted to find a .jpg, remember? T'Challa's arc is finding peace somewhere between vengeance and diplomacy and he ends up in a radically different place than he started. We see his moral compass shift. We saw Wonder Woman decide not to take her first class seat.

I loved Captain America: Civil War. I was entertained by it (the big fight at the Berlin Airport is perhaps the best superhero action ever arranged), but more importantly I was emotionally engaged with the battle. Since the Russos don't pick a side neither do you. This is like watching your parents fighting, except unlike all the times my parents fought both sides here have a real point.

Speaking of the fighting, we have to talk a little about the villain in this movie, who has been kept pretty much out of all advertising. There's a reason for that. He's not flashy. He's not super-powered. He's just a motivated every day guy with a plan and that plan is so simple, but it's weirdly more devastating than Loki opening a butthole portal over New York and letting aliens attack the city.

When I reviewed The Avengers I said that Marvel had to be careful because they've gone huge and gathered together a team so powerful that it could make for some boring movies. The secret to undoing that is to fracture that team and that's exactly what Marvel's been doing. They stripped away SHIELD, declawed Nick Fury and have been sowing the seeds that are ready for harvest by the time Civil War comes along.

There's real pain and rage here and the MCU crew very smartly doesn't wipe it all away at the end. There is no “water under the bridge” moment between Cap and Iron Man. A gesture of peace is made and I'm sure that gesture will mean for a reteam by the time Thanos comes calling, but it's never going to be the same between them. The events of this movie left a mark. Things were said and revealed that can not be taken back.

The events of this movie mean something. This fight took something from most of those involved that was worse than getting beaten up by a big bad villain. One character is forever physically changed and Tony's guilt and rage are still inside him, not assuaged by the Sokovia Accords, but intensified even further by the fallout from them. There's also the rising fear of the government powers at work and the threat of real detainment.

It's becoming cliché at this point, but Tom Holland's Peter Parker is so right on the money that it makes you actively angry at Sony for struggling so much with the character over five films. I feel bad for Andrew Garfield because he was perfect as Spidey in the suit, but was kinda saddled with the emo Parker stuff. He got the humor right and, like Brandon Routh, was a better hero than the movie around him.

But this is the first time both Peter Parker and Spider-Man are note perfect on the big screen. No question. And like I said earlier, it's all set up with a simple bit of charming character work and blammo, he's in the movie and works and adds such a lightness to the big airport fight that I can't imagine how that would have played out had the Sony/Marvel deal not gone through.

Spidey's perspective is crucial because he's a fan of everybody there (that he knows) and is excited to be included at all. He's the fan just happy to be there and even the people he's fighting come to like and respect him.

Holland is just dweebish enough to make it work and just cool enough to not make it feel like Parker couldn't do the cool shit in the costume. He's a pure soul right now. The dark shit that happens to him hasn't happened yet and he's young, idealistic, naïve and forever optimistic.

This movie left me foaming at the mouth for Spider-Man: Homecoming. I'm also dying to see what happens with Black Panther. Chadwick Boseman knocked T'Challa out of the park and I'm now 100% invested in this quiet, powerful leader that's not afraid to fuck stuff up when he needs to.

In short, Civil War did what Batman V Superman and even Age of Ultron failed at. It has me hotly anticipating the next steps without making me feel like I just spent 2 and a half hours watching set up.

The MCU seems to be finding its groove again. They never lost it completely, things just got muddled and convoluted for a bit. I think The Russos are the best thing to happen to this Shared Universe since Jon Favreau and Robert Downey Jr. and I'm beyond excited we're getting two Infinity War movies from them.

[Monker]

"Hi, I'm Monker, and I didn't watch the movie, but I did watch a spoiler-filled review, so therefore I must be right."

No, you're not, I am. I saw Civil War on Saturday afternoon. So, please don't pretend to be me. It doesn't fit you very well.

No, I saw the movie, and [SPOILERS] the Sokovia Accords being drawn up aren't the fat volume that makes Stark drastically reconsider his stance. This is the same guy that's been blowing shit up as Iron Man across a number of films. Buildings fell down on people in both previous Avengers films. But he always felt he was doing the right thing. Enter Miriam Sharpe, mother of Charlie Spencer, who was a casualty in an explosion in Sokovia. Sharpe tells Stark he "murdered" her son (in a scene that somewhat parallels one in BvS). That is the catalyst. Minutes before, the only thing on Stark's mind was being reminded he and Pepper are currently separated (written away as some wishy-washy bullshit in the wake of Iron Man 3).

You are just so off. You need to go see the movie again and pay attention this time.

Before Stark was told about the kid who blew up, he was already having reservations. By his admission, he was in and out of things multiple times. But, as he says, he couldn't quit. He lost Pepper due to the fact that he couldn't quit. He blames himself for Ultron. He sees that the more he meddles in things, the worse things get. The final straw was the kid who died. So, he decides that oversight and the accords are not a bad thing...and Vision agrees.

The fact that you toss aside the bit about losing Pepper, and ignore his explicit regrets about Ultron, and ignore his later words where he says that he felt the accords would somehow help things with Pepper, ignoring all of that shows me that were not even paying attention to the movie.

Stark's motivator therefore becomes not his compassion, but his arrogance. He thinks they have to sign the Accords, which are due to be ratified within (surprise!) days, though Rogers can't present a more sound argument than he does for the Avengers to remain a private, independent entity.

It's neither one. Stark's motivator is regret and control...he desperately wants to be in control of the Avengers...and to keep them together despite having this oversight going on, which he believes is necessary due to his own regrets from the past.

As for Captain America...you again totally missed everything that happened. He doesn't need to explain. These are his personal values that he believes very deeply. He will not go against them , period...despite who disagrees and why. That was doubly emphasized during the talk at Peggy Carter's funeral.

There is an old saying that leaders don't need people to follow them. That is the difference between CA and IM. CA does what he believes is right no matter what anybody else tells him...and people eventually fall in line with him. IM is trying to convince people to follow him despite the reservations they may have.

The Bucky revelation is a Hail Mary, just like Turan wrote.

No, it's not. It's good story telling. It was foreshadowed several times...you just didn't see the full scene. As I have said, the movie was all about revenge. Zemo's manipulation was all about revenge. Black Panther was all about revenge. Even the accords could be seen as the people's revenge against the Avengers. So, having Bucky kill Stark's mother and fill Stark with a desire for revenge was the perfect climax to bring into the final act. Black Panther talks about allowing revenge to eat away your soul and that he was not going to allow that to happen to him...and in contrast you see Iron Man with Captain America's shield in his chest smashing the reactor. Iron Man allowed revenge to consume him...he lost everything, almost all of the former avengers, even Black Panther. Who is left? Spiderman and Vision?

There was no other way for them to stage the titular confrontation, which features a nerfed Iron Man — who honestly, based on previous films, could've ended the conflict quickly if sloppily — against two non-superpowered guys. Seriously, for a guy who was as pissed as Tony appeared to be, you'd think he would've just chest-repulsor'd Barnes and been done with it! AND the fight suddenly just ends because his weapons are toasted. Why didn't he exit the suit (like he loves to do for shits and giggles) and keep going? I guess he got tired. So there's no big "dark, controversial" wrap like the Russos promised, apart from Cap tossing his shield aside. (They also wasted Crossbones in the beginning of the movie, so you knew right there Cap wouldn't be dying anytime soon. Instead, Rhodes nearly dies because suddenly Falcon develops Spidey Sense and dodges Vision's blast! HAHA!! WTF! )

This entire paragraph is so full of errors I have to wonder if he even watched the movies.

Iron Man is the one who is not super. He just has a suit. Captain America and Bucky are "super"...they got it from a test tube. Iron Man couldn't simply blast Bucky...when he was getting smashed down, CA and Bucky were tossing the shield back and forth...Iron Man's blasts do not damage the shield. Not even Thor's hammer damages the shield. By the time Bucky starts climbing, Iron Man's suit is damaged and he can barely fly. Iron Man could not just exit the suit because Captain America put his shield in his chest and smashed the reactor...if he paid any attention, Stark tried to move and he couldn't. Yes, he tossed the shield, but Black Panther can make him many more - and they will be his, not Stark's. The "contraversal ending' is breaking the former Avengers out of the floating prison to start his own group and you really have NO IDEA where the Avengers are going to go from here...because they really don't exist right now.

So, in short, the guy who wrote that is an idiot. And, if you agree with him, you aint all too smart neither.

I agree with the article that said Spider-Man, as awesome as he is in it, has no business being in it.

He is there for the same reason Wonder Woman was in BvS....to set up his own movie and eventually his part in the Infinity War. You are hypocrite if you critique this but praise Wonder Woman's part in BvS.

The airport fight is a great showcase of choreography and CGI, but really only the second half of it should've happened. The first half is threats and prancing and one-liners.

Wrong again. They didn't really WANT to fight. None of them did. The point is this was all manipulation and dividing the Avengers and putting one side against the other.

IMO, it's Black Panther who stole the show. I couldn't get enough of BP. His suit's awesome. He had the moves and the claws. They should've left Spidey out and given him more time.

Black Panther was great and had a big part in the movie to explain the vengeance theme that ran through the movie. But, if they would have eliminated Spiderman, my guess is they would have added more Ant-Man for comic relief.

[verslibre]

Why is Squad going to fall flat?

Because the entire film looks like shit.

You know what says otherwise? The trailers' combined views on YouTube: in excess of 80 million views. That's right. Don't believe me? Go look. The movie looks great, btw. Don't worry, I'll let you know how it is.

How will Apocalypse outsell BvS when there's not a ton of buzz for it

Because it actually looks like a good film. You sit on your ass and let how well something is trending determine how you believe a film will do...but you don't realize that trending and "buzz" could mean anything, including a large number of people arguing how shitty a movie looks.

The movie is not generating the buzz it should be. It's a fact. As one of the three biggest CBMs this year, it's the least anticipated.

and DoFP didn't even earn a profit at the box office?

So what? I didn't see it in the theater either because it looked lame to me. And, IMO, it and First Class are fairly mediocre.

First Class is the best X-Men movie, so you're flat-out wrong. That is the tightest ship on the entire franchise. Singer hasn't been able direct something that equals it (FC was directed by Matt Vaughn, who left DoFP because he wanted to direct Kingsman). Singer's older X-movies are aging badly, and DoFP didn't meet expectations — especially where box office is concerned.

Here, want proof? http://iveybusinessreview.ca/blogs/lbolukhba2010/2014/05/14/days-future-past-will-disappointment-fox/

Btw, Deadpool was the first superhero movie in YEARS to make that kind of money (profitwise) for Fox. Don't act like the X-franchise is suddenly converting moviegoers everywhere. Spin, spin, spin! [/quote]

IMO, Apocalypse looks like the best X-Men film that has been offered, including the original series.

The trailer looks decent, but so did the trailer for DoFP.

But, whatever...my question still stands: If all these movies outsell BvS, what does it mean for WB/DC? It makes DC and WB look like fourth rate hacks. And, yes, I do believe it could happen.

It doesn't mean shit. How would they be fourth-rate while still ahead of Fox? They haven't made a billion dollar CBM. DoFP was expected to make that, and it fell far short. Like a quarter of a billion short.

[verslibre]

No, I saw the movie, and [SPOILERS] the Sokovia Accords being drawn up aren't the fat volume that makes Stark drastically reconsider his stance. This is the same guy that's been blowing shit up as Iron Man across a number of films. Buildings fell down on people in both previous Avengers films. But he always felt he was doing the right thing. Enter Miriam Sharpe, mother of Charlie Spencer, who was a casualty in an explosion in Sokovia. Sharpe tells Stark he "murdered" her son (in a scene that somewhat parallels one in BvS). That is the catalyst. Minutes before, the only thing on Stark's mind was being reminded he and Pepper are currently separated (written away as some wishy-washy bullshit in the wake of Iron Man 3).

You are just so off. You need to go see the movie again and pay attention this time.

Before Stark was told about the kid who blew up, he was already having reservations. By his admission, he was in and out of things multiple times. But, as he says, he couldn't quit. He lost Pepper due to the fact that he couldn't quit. He blames himself for Ultron. He sees that the more he meddles in things, the worse things get. The final straw was the kid who died. So, he decides that oversight and the accords are not a bad thing...and Vision agrees.

The fact that you toss aside the bit about losing Pepper, and ignore his explicit regrets about Ultron, and ignore his later words where he says that he felt the accords would somehow help things with Pepper, ignoring all of that shows me that were not even paying attention to the movie.

When Stark finally pipes up after letting Ross do his thing and complains about "who's dumping coffee grounds" in the sink, he throws up the holo-pic of Spencer for everyone gathered to see. He explains and proclaims that kid's casualty, as informed by his own mother at MIT, is the reason at the very least they need to sign the Accords. Yes, his PTSD continues to plague him, but that's not what he cites, nor his split from Pepper, as the main-vein reason they need to be put in check. Maybe you missed that while you were smearing nacho cheese over your eyelids.

Stark's motivator therefore becomes not his compassion, but his arrogance. He thinks they have to sign the Accords, which are due to be ratified within (surprise!) days, though Rogers can't present a more sound argument than he does for the Avengers to remain a private, independent entity.

It's neither one. Stark's motivator is regret and control...he desperately wants to be in control of the Avengers...and to keep them together despite having this oversight going on, which he believes is necessary due to his own regrets from the past.

You mistake his regret for the arrogance that really drives him. He's always been arrogant. If he were truly regretful, he wouldn't have brought Peter Parker, a high schooler, into the mix for shits and giggles. Everything to Stark is a means to an end. He saw the end, and he want and grabbed some more means. You're just making excuses to prop up Stark.

As for Captain America...you again totally missed everything that happened. He doesn't need to explain. These are his personal values that he believes very deeply. He will not go against them , period...despite who disagrees and why. That was doubly emphasized during the talk at Peggy Carter's funeral.

Are you for real? Rogers gives his nutshell reasoning at the table. It's barely a couple sentences long. He says the Avengers should remain private so that they're where they're needed. Otherwise, they could be needed somewhere and not be there. He EXPLAINS why he doesn't feel the Avengers should be under U.N. control. He doesn't need to go beyond that. It's a perfectly compact, thorough explanation. Rogers knows what's it like to be a government puppet, and he clearly doesn't wish to be one again. Captain America ultimately stands for freedom. DUH.

There is an old saying that leaders don't need people to follow them. That is the difference between CA and IM. CA does what he believes is right no matter what anybody else tells him...and people eventually fall in line with him. IM is trying to convince people to follow him despite the reservations they may have.

Stark thinks everyone should do what he says, and why he says. Which is sign the Accords. Thanks for finally agreeing with me.

The Bucky revelation is a Hail Mary, just like Turan wrote.

No, it's not. It's good story telling. It was foreshadowed several times...you just didn't see the full scene. As I have said, the movie was all about revenge. Zemo's manipulation was all about revenge. Black Panther was all about revenge. Even the accords could be seen as the people's revenge against the Avengers. So, having Bucky kill Stark's mother and fill Stark with a desire for revenge was the perfect climax to bring into the final act. Black Panther talks about allowing revenge to eat away your soul and that he was not going to allow that to happen to him...and in contrast you see Iron Man with Captain America's shield in his chest smashing the reactor. Iron Man allowed revenge to consume him...he lost everything, almost all of the former avengers, even Black Panther. Who is left? Spiderman and Vision?

I didn't see the "full scene"? Says who? I don't get up to take a piss and refill my nasty-tasting Diet Coke like you do (I won't touch the stuff). Of course, Zemo's motivation was revenge. BASIC revenge, I might add. BASIC. Death-of-his-family-in-Sokovia-basic. You're overemphasizing a BASIC revenge motive as high art.

Iron Man is the one who is not super. He just has a suit. Captain America and Bucky are "super"...they got it from a test tube.

Somebody give Monker the Captain Obvious Award already. He deserves it. For clarification, when I refer to superpowers, I mean the kind Scarlet Witch, Superman, Spider-Man and Green Lantern possess/wield, not enhanced strength, stamina and endurance. Which are nice, too. Wolverine has all that, but his super-healing ability is a superhuman quality. That's the difference. Captain America is not impervious.

Iron Man couldn't simply blast Bucky...when he was getting smashed down, CA and Bucky were tossing the shield back and forth...Iron Man's blasts do not damage the shield. Not even Thor's hammer damages the shield. By the time Bucky starts climbing, Iron Man's suit is damaged and he can barely fly. Iron Man could not just exit the suit because Captain America put his shield in his chest and smashed the reactor...if he paid any attention, Stark tried to move and he couldn't. Yes, he tossed the shield, but Black Panther can make him many more - and they will be his, not Stark's.

I'll tell you exactly why Iron Man didn't use the full arsenal in his suit to take down two ground-based guys, shield or no shield: because they didn't WRITE it that way. I guess you're not smart enough to realize that. Otherwise Bucky would've lost that arm a lot sooner.

The "contraversal ending' is breaking the former Avengers out of the floating prison to start his own group and you really have NO IDEA where the Avengers are going to go from here...because they really don't exist right now.

No, no, no, no, no, no...that is not the "controversial" ending they hinted at. You are delusional, boy. "You got blinders on to the world!" There is nothing dark or "controversial" about that ending. Go look up the definition of the word. People thought Cap would die. Or Bucky would die. Or War Machine (as hinted at in the trailer) would die. But nobody died. Once again, they took the "Quicksilver" of the film, that being Rhodey, the "least valuable player," and they fucked him up. At least in this case, it did happen in the comics and he walked again thanks to Stark's tech.

He is there for the same reason Wonder Woman was in BvS....to set up his own movie and eventually his part in the Infinity War. You are hypocrite if you critique this but praise Wonder Woman's part in BvS.

YOU are the hypocrite here. You're the one who ragged on the DC films and waxed on about good storytelling and bad storytelling and films overstuffed with characters. You even said you read that Spider-Man had an entire half-hour devoted to him to set him up. Well, I don't know where you read that, but you were wrong there, too. The scene that gives us Parker is actually pretty cheesy. The next time we see him, it's in Berlin. He's there as an asset — both Stark's and the studios' — more so than story point, and you know it.

Wrong again. They didn't really WANT to fight. None of them did. The point is this was all manipulation and dividing the Avengers and putting one side against the other.

Wait...what? Manipulation? Somebody manipulating the heroes from behind the scenes? You're talking about Lex, right?

IMO, it's Black Panther who stole the show. I couldn't get enough of BP. His suit's awesome. He had the moves and the claws. They should've left Spidey out and given him more time.

Black Panther was great and had a big part in the movie to explain the vengeance theme that ran through the movie. But, if they would have eliminated Spiderman, my guess is they would have added more Ant-Man for comic relief.

There was enough Ant-Man as is. BP's role got edited up, down and sideways to accommodate the inclusion of Spider-Man. At one point, they thought Sony wasn't going to let them use him.

[The_Noble_Cause]

How will Apocalypse outsell BvS when there's not a ton of buzz for it

Because it actually looks like a good film. You sit on your ass and let how well something is trending determine how you believe a film will do...but you don't realize that trending and "buzz" could mean anything, including a large number of people arguing how shitty a movie looks.

Singer's X-Films aren't really dynamic, but they get the job done and make bank. I'm very excited for Apocalypse. The entire prequel trilogy so far (First Class, DOFP) has been excellent.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Singer's older X-movies are aging badly, and DoFP didn't meet expectations — especially where box office is concerned.

Here, want proof? http://iveybusinessreview.ca/blogs/lbolukhba2010/2014/05/14/days-future-past-will-disappointment-fox/

The first few X films have aged. But that is largely because the X-Franchise is one of the few franchises with such long legs. Compare it to Fantastic Four, which only lasted two films before a reboot. Or The Punisher which has been rebooted 3 times recently (not counting Dolph Lundgren). Meanwhile Hugh Jackman is still playing Logan after all these years. Any film made in 2000 would be showing its age.

Trying to stay away from Apocalypse spoilers. I'm seeing some bad reviews already.

It doesn't mean shit. How would they be fourth-rate while still ahead of Fox? They haven't made a billion dollar CBM. DoFP was expected to make that, and it fell far short. Like a quarter of a billion short.

Did any other X films come close to that? I assumed DOFP would earn around the same much as First Class.