Religion & Morality

[Rip Rokken]

Isn't there a bit about drinking piss?

Yes, but it actually comes as a threat from a rep from the King of Assyria though, not from God.

II Kings 18:28 But Rabshakeh said to them, “Has my master sent me only to your master and to you to speak these words, and not to the men who sit on the wall, doomed to eat their own dung and drink their own urine with you?”

Here's what God would have his people eat:

From Ezekiel 4: 12 You shall eat it as a barley cake, having baked it in their sight over human dung.” 13 Then the LORD said, “Thus will the sons of Israel eat their bread unclean among the nations where I will banish them.” 14 But I said, “Ah, Lord [a]GOD! Behold, I have never been defiled; for from my youth until now I have never eaten what died of itself or was torn by beasts, nor has any unclean meat ever entered my mouth.” 15 Then He said to me, “See, I will give you cow’s dung in place of human dung over which you will prepare your bread.”

Gee, thanks for cutting me some slack for never having eaten anything unclean, God! Yumm!!!!

[artist4perry]

Do you believe Rip is going to hell?

That is not mine to decide.

Hahaha... How could she possibly be happy in Heaven knowing I (or any friend or loved one) was roasting in Hell?

But the Biblical answer from the Calvanist point of view at least is "NO" - I can't. It's the doctrine of Eternal Security, or "once saved, always saved". And the Bible says, "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." Also several verses talking about how the good work he began, he will finish, and how nobody can snatch us out of his hand.

That's the kicker, and the only explanation most Christians have for me or the tons and tons of people just like me is that we were never really saved to begin with - otherwise, we couldn't be here. And the answer I or any of the others I've met or listened to will shoot right back at them is, "If I didn't really believe, then nobody can really believe." I never even entertained any serious doubts about my faith until just a few years ago, so how is that not belief?

So I can assure all my concerned friends that I have 0% chance of going to Hell. According to the Bible, I'll eventually have to be recovered to the faith and complete my process of sanctification, then spend eternity singing praises to the Almighty. Oh, joy.

Rip, I don't believe in once saved always saved. I think one can fall from grace. But again I am not God so who am I to say who will and who will not be welcomed there? Only God can make such a judgment.

I think only you can say if you believe or not. I think one can believe and lose faith. Happens all the time.

Can you explain to me how you can believe, but at the same time lose faith?

Ask Rip. The thing is I truly believe he is honest when he said he once believed. But something came along and he had doubts, questions. For other people tradgedy strikes and they grow to doubt God. For some, they just grow weak. As I said, happens all the time. I don't think for a second he was not a true believer.

[artist4perry]

Isn't there a bit about drinking piss?

Yes, but it actually comes as a threat from a rep from the King of Assyria though, not from God.

II Kings 18:28 But Rabshakeh said to them, “Has my master sent me only to your master and to you to speak these words, and not to the men who sit on the wall, doomed to eat their own dung and drink their own urine with you?”

Here's what God would have his people eat:

From Ezekiel 4: 12 You shall eat it as a barley cake, having baked it in their sight over human dung.” 13 Then the LORD said, “Thus will the sons of Israel eat their bread unclean among the nations where I will banish them.” 14 But I said, “Ah, Lord [a]GOD! Behold, I have never been defiled; for from my youth until now I have never eaten what died of itself or was torn by beasts, nor has any unclean meat ever entered my mouth.” 15 Then He said to me, “See, I will give you cow’s dung in place of human dung over which you will prepare your bread.”

Gee, thanks for cutting me some slack for never having eaten anything unclean, God! Yumm!!!!

Get into the whole story Rip.

[artist4perry]

Another thing you might want to think on Rip. Does a baby harbor sin in its heart? Can a baby lust? Can you look at a baby and think it is depraved? Does a baby think evil? Do we refer to children as innocent?

I guess we all have our takes on things and this is not to offend. But it makes no sense to say that a child (if you believe we are created) is created evil. How can God create evil? I don't buy it. I think we are corrupted by sin when we are old enough to know what is right and wrong and chose to do wrong anyway. Sin is choice, not inherited. I know many think differently, and I respect your difference of thought.

Man wasn't intended to know good from evil to begin with, but only to live by God. Kinda strange that the first sin was learning the difference between right and wrong. And thus, mankind was cursed, and the curse was passed down from that point forward. Most branches of Christianity teach that people are born into sin.

Under your logic, it sounds like it could be possible for a regular Joe to live a sinless life if he consistently chose the right thing.

Christ was our example. But as humans we tend to make mistakes and sin. I mean we even can sin with our thoughts, right?

[Rip Rokken]

I think only you can say if you believe or not. I think one can believe and lose faith. Happens all the time.

Can you explain to me how you can believe, but at the same time lose faith?

She meant someone can once believe, then later lose faith. Of course there is a gradual evolution from one state to the other.

I was just thinking about "faith" last night. We say that faith is belief in the unseen, or belief without evidence. In a religious sense that seems to be the case, but it's really much more than that. Faith is also belief in someone or the outcome of a situation based on historical experience, like my example about getting paid on time. People don't lose faith for no reason. I think faith is lost when the other side doesn't hold up their end of the bargain.

The #1 factor that caused me to finally lose faith was the inefficacy of prayer. Prayer is a wasted effort, and really makes no difference whatsoever. It's hard to count the "victories" when there is no timeline for the results. Something positive that happens 10 years in the future is still counted as an answer to prayer. The truth is good things and bad things happen to everyone, in the random order of things, and with no prejudice. Christians who pray don't have it any better than unbelievers who don't -- I've certainly seen more than my share of absolutely senseless and cruel disasters happen to faithful Christians who pray for the Lord's protection. So much for:

John 14: 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

Matthew 7:9 "Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone?

Two of the biggest lies in the Bible. It's more like:

"He who waits upon the Lord waits forever."

I can tell ya that my life has become a whole lot more fulfilling and effective since cutting prayer out of it. Instead of waiting for confusing signs that we have to twist to interpret as answers, I act immediately knowing that the power to direct or change my life starts with me. Plus, the emotional roller coaster or joy/stress/disappointment that often accompanies prayer is gone, and that's huge. Have you ever heard Christians say something like, "Sometimes you need to beat on God's chest and throw a fit!" Why the hell should anyone have to do that?!? And why should we ask God for things like healing at all? I read an example in a book - if your child gets sick, do you wait for them to ask you to take them to the doctor?

[Rhiannon]

II Bear Grylls 18:28 But Rabshakeh said to them, “Has my master sent me only to your master and to you to speak these words, and not to the men who sit on the wall, doomed to eat their own dung and drink their own urine with you?”

You had a typo. Fixed it for you.

[conversationpc]

Why should I worship a vain entity? Why would he even want to be worshipped? I mean he made the universe/world in 6 days...he shouldn't have an inferiority complex...or have that huge an urge to have his ego stroked.

Do you want your children to obey and honor you as their father?

[conversationpc]

How is it multiple choice if I simply don't know the answer? I'm not picking and choosing, just saying that I don't know the answer. Multiple choice is when someone plainly knows the truth but decides to go against it for one reason or another.

In the sense that it appears to be perfectly legit to choose what bits of the Bible to believe and how to interpret them.

That would apply here but I'm just saying that I don't know the answer, not that I know and am choosing to believe something else just because it's more convenient.

[Rip Rokken]

Why should I worship a vain entity? Why would he even want to be worshipped? I mean he made the universe/world in 6 days...he shouldn't have an inferiority complex...or have that huge an urge to have his ego stroked.

Do you want your children to obey and honor you as their father?

Sure, but I don't threaten them with eternal death if they don't, though I know some parents who threaten to beat them within an inch of their life. Also, I encourage my daughter to think, knowing that some day she won't be under my wing anymore. That's good parenting.

[conversationpc]

Inside the Christian community they may debate doctrine, but doubtful any of them are questioning God himself.

Oh, I'm sure many struggle with that from time to time as well. Regardless, if you already believe in God, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to be questioning whether he exists in the first place. Personally, I find it a lot harder to believe that the order we see in the universe came about by sheer accident than that a supernatural creator started it all. Don't both positions take faith?

[conversationpc]

Sure, but I don't threaten them with eternal death if they don't, though I know some parents who threaten to beat them within an inch of their life. Also, I encourage my daughter to think, knowing that some day she won't be under my wing anymore. That's good parenting.

Well, I wasn't even referring to the afterlife, heaven, hell, etc., just referencing Sean's question about why God would want anyone to worship him in the first place, as if that's vain. Following that logic, wouldn't the same thing apply to us as parents?

[Rip Rokken]

Inside the Christian community they may debate doctrine, but doubtful any of them are questioning God himself.

Oh, I'm sure many struggle with that from time to time as well. Regardless, if you already believe in God, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to be questioning whether he exists in the first place. Personally, I find it a lot harder to believe that the order we see in the universe came about by sheer accident than that a supernatural creator started it all. Don't both positions take faith?

My doubts with God don't start with the creation argument - they strictly stem from the "personal relationship" angle.

[Duncan]

How is it multiple choice if I simply don't know the answer? I'm not picking and choosing, just saying that I don't know the answer. Multiple choice is when someone plainly knows the truth but decides to go against it for one reason or another.

In the sense that it appears to be perfectly legit to choose what bits of the Bible to believe and how to interpret them.

That would apply here but I'm just saying that I don't know the answer, not that I know and am choosing to believe something else just because it's more convenient.

Understood.

[S2M]

Why should I worship a vain entity? Why would he even want to be worshipped? I mean he made the universe/world in 6 days...he shouldn't have an inferiority complex...or have that huge an urge to have his ego stroked.

Do you want your children to obey and honor you as their father?

False extrapolation....children are asked to obey a parent because, a) parents are legally responsible for them, and their actions. b) parents have life experience, and should be listened to.

I didn't honor my father...I obeyed him for the reasons stated. I didn't worship him.

[whirlwind]

"We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid."

Would this validate your statement?


http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-thinkingchristians.htm

[S2M]

I was watching The Prestige a couple of days ago, and am about to throw in The Illusionist...then this thread pops up, and with my interest in theoretical physics - I was thinking.......

When you know how a magic trick is done.....the amazement is gone.

As much as we contemplate the mysteries of the universe, is it in our best interest to know how it all works?

It ceases to be magical....and turns into something extremely banal, and redundant.

I guess, to me, believing in 'god' is no different than believing in Santa Claus....I mean there's just as much evidence of Saint Nick's existence, then that of 'god'....

[conversationpc]

False extrapolation....children are asked to obey a parent because, a) parents are legally responsible for them, and their actions. b) parents have life experience, and should be listened to.

I didn't honor my father...I obeyed him for the reasons stated. I didn't worship him.

Not false at all...When you boil down worship to its basic level, it's basiccally the expression of adulation towards the Father (God).

[Duncan]

"We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid."

Would this validate your statement?


http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-thinkingchristians.htm

No. The statement was not that religous people are less intelligent, but that it causes them to be more stupid. It's Christopher Hitchen's statement not mine, but the evidence does suggest that he is correct.

[artist4perry]

"We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid."

Would this validate your statement?


http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-thinkingchristians.htm

No. The statement was not that religous people are less intelligent, but that it causes them to be more stupid. It's Christopher Hitchen's statement not mine, but the evidence does suggest that he is correct.

What evidence? What makes a christian more stupid than any other person? Basically if you don't agree with someone Else's views in this pompous guys eyes they are more stupid? Seriously? How could you respect anything a person like that says when he uses such sweeping generalizations like that?

One thing I have to say is for the most part everyone here has been quite reasonable. But when you say and or agree with demoralizing all encompassing statements such as this made by someone who shows so little respect to others, it makes me wonder why you would even quote such a person!

I am 100% O.K. with you not believing in God. Your thoughts on the origins of the world are yours and you are just as welcome to them as I am my own. The best thing about this thread is the ability for both sides to discuss things in a very mature manner.

Duncan, I have no beef with you per say. As a matter of fact I have always liked you. I ask you to put yourself in my shoes. How would you like such a statement aimed at you?

[Rip Rokken]

It's Christopher Hitchen's statement not mine, but the evidence does suggest that he is correct.

One thing I have to say is for the most part everyone here has been quite reasonable. But when you say and or agree with demoralizing all encompassing statements such as this made by someone who shows so little respect to others, it makes me wonder why you would even quote such a person!

I'm trying to wind my input down a bit, because I don't mind sharing my beliefs as long as I'm not trying to actively influence someone away from what they believe. The conversation has gone far enough that it's getting tougher to continue without pushing that boundary.

But I did want to say something about Christopher Hitchens. He's one of the most absolutely refreshingly candid guys I've ever seen speak, and I've never seen reason to question his sincerity. Pretty much everyone he gives the heavy stick to deserves it, whether it's Henry Kissinger, to Mother Teresa, the Almighty himself. And yes, he can be quite brutal, but so far I've agreed with him on just about everything I've heard. Politics be damned with him - he calls it like he sees it, with a smattering of his trademark humor and no apologies. Anyway, I've watched many videos of his debates and clips from guest appearances, and love the guy to death. He's truly one of a kind.

Even though I don't want to keep beating a dead horse, I do have one question for the believers here, and would be interested in your answers. I'm sure you've seen the O.T. verses I've posted and probably knew most of them anyway. So here's the question...

Reading that stuff in a book is one thing, but if you had to witness God executing judgment in such fashion with your own eyes, how do you think you would feel at that moment? Whether he's casting people into everlasting flame for eternity, smearing feces on people's faces, or killing their first born, can you imagine yourself praising him and rejoicing as he did this? Honest answers please, and no ducking or deflecting, because the Bible does indicate that believers will get to watch him meting out final judgment.

[artist4perry]

It's Christopher Hitchen's statement not mine, but the evidence does suggest that he is correct.

One thing I have to say is for the most part everyone here has been quite reasonable. But when you say and or agree with demoralizing all encompassing statements such as this made by someone who shows so little respect to others, it makes me wonder why you would even quote such a person!

I'm trying to wind my input down a bit, because I don't mind sharing my beliefs as long as I'm not trying to actively influence someone away from what they believe. The conversation has gone far enough that it's getting tougher to continue without pushing that boundary.

But I did want to say something about Christopher Hitchens. He's one of the most absolutely refreshingly candid guys I've ever seen speak, and I've never seen reason to question his sincerity. Pretty much everyone he gives the heavy stick to deserves it, whether it's Henry Kissinger, to Mother Teresa, the Almighty himself. And yes, he can be quite brutal, but so far I've agreed with him on just about everything I've heard. Politics be damned with him - he calls it like he sees it, with a smattering of his trademark humor and no apologies. Anyway, I've watched many videos of his debates and clips from guest appearances, and love the guy to death. He's truly one of a kind.

Even though I don't want to keep beating a dead horse, I do have one question for the believers here, and would be interested in your answers. I'm sure you've seen the O.T. verses I've posted and probably knew most of them anyway. So here's the question...

Reading that stuff in a book is one thing, but if you had to witness God executing judgment in such fashion with your own eyes, how do you think you would feel at that moment? Whether he's casting people into everlasting flame for eternity, smearing feces on people's faces, or killing their first born, can you imagine yourself praising him and rejoicing as he did this? Honest answers please, and no ducking or deflecting, because the Bible does indicate that believers will get to watch him meting out final judgment.

Rip, When Dan has more time he wants to chime in on these things. Right now I am going to bow out. Honestly your my friend and I don't have a problem with you guys liking that speaker. But I personally don't see people like Dave, Danny, or myself being more stupid because we believe in God.

First off I am not offended by anyone here or by anything anyone said. So I don't want anyone to think this is the reason.\

A great deal is because I don't want to get too into it, I would rather keep most things with all of you lighthearted. I am a tender hearted soul and I just don't ever see it worth hurting or alienating anyone over. Probably would not be a risk I know between you and I.

Danny has a deeper knowledge of scripture than I do, so I think he could better answer your questions. And know this, he would not be bothered by your questions at all. He is a good person.

I am having trouble with my hand right now. Today it froze in place and it hurt SO BAD! Therapy is not helping much, and tomorrow morning is my last session. I am afraid of what this will hold for the treatment of my arm and hand.

I will still write in on happier threads. Like the one on Memphis............We are going! LOL *insert fat ol' me doing cartwheels here!*

Thank you guys for being respectful to me, I have had fun. Those who believe in God say a little prayer for them to find a way to help my arm get better. Those who don't, well a kind thought would do just the same. I would hug each of you if I ever get to meet you.

Rip, I hope my artwork gets selected for the Arkansas Arts Council's Small Works on Paper Show. It will give me a good reason to come down to LR.

Night All!

[Duncan]

"We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid."

Would this validate your statement?


http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-thinkingchristians.htm

No. The statement was not that religous people are less intelligent, but that it causes them to be more stupid. It's Christopher Hitchen's statement not mine, but the evidence does suggest that he is correct.

What evidence? What makes a christian more stupid than any other person? Basically if you don't agree with someone Else's views in this pompous guys eyes they are more stupid? Seriously? How could you respect anything a person like that says when he uses such sweeping generalizations like that?

One thing I have to say is for the most part everyone here has been quite reasonable. But when you say and or agree with demoralizing all encompassing statements such as this made by someone who shows so little respect to others, it makes me wonder why you would even quote such a person!

I am 100% O.K. with you not believing in God. Your thoughts on the origins of the world are yours and you are just as welcome to them as I am my own. The best thing about this thread is the ability for both sides to discuss things in a very mature manner.

Duncan, I have no beef with you per say. As a matter of fact I have always liked you. I ask you to put yourself in my shoes. How would you like such a statement aimed at you?

I wouldn't claim offence that's for sure. I'm 100% ok with people believing in god. I think they are wasting their lives, but its their choice. It's when their religion imposes on education, government and expects special privileges, thats when I have a problem.

Here is a clip that will give you some idea of where Hitchens is coming from. I agree with him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZJYZ8E7 ... re=related

If you want to take the time to watch the the other videos re Christian idiocy that are in the same series then that might be a starting point to validate Hitchens "stupid" claim. The crazy dancing in episode 7 is certainly worth watching.

[artist4perry]

"We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid."

Would this validate your statement?


http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-thinkingchristians.htm

No. The statement was not that religous people are less intelligent, but that it causes them to be more stupid. It's Christopher Hitchen's statement not mine, but the evidence does suggest that he is correct.

What evidence? What makes a christian more stupid than any other person? Basically if you don't agree with someone Else's views in this pompous guys eyes they are more stupid? Seriously? How could you respect anything a person like that says when he uses such sweeping generalizations like that?

One thing I have to say is for the most part everyone here has been quite reasonable. But when you say and or agree with demoralizing all encompassing statements such as this made by someone who shows so little respect to others, it makes me wonder why you would even quote such a person!

I am 100% O.K. with you not believing in God. Your thoughts on the origins of the world are yours and you are just as welcome to them as I am my own. The best thing about this thread is the ability for both sides to discuss things in a very mature manner.

Duncan, I have no beef with you per say. As a matter of fact I have always liked you. I ask you to put yourself in my shoes. How would you like such a statement aimed at you?

I wouldn't claim offence that's for sure. I'm 100% ok with people believing in god. I think they are wasting their lives, but its their choice. It's when their religion imposes on education, government and expects special privileges, thats when I have a problem.

Here is a clip that will give you some idea of where Hitchens is coming from. I agree with him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZJYZ8E7 ... re=related

If you want to take the time to watch the the other videos re Christian idiocy that are in the same series then that might be a starting point to validate Hitchens "stupid" claim. The crazy dancing in episode 7 is certainly worth watching.

Duncan I never said there was not crazy people out there, just that it is not fair or factual to make a broad sweeping statement that all people who do this are more stupid. That would be like me saying everyone named Duncan who post on rock sites are more stupid. Now granted there may be some guys named Duncan who are more stupid than most people. But not all. You cannot support such a statement with fact. It is an opinion only. And on that note.

Duncan you have a great day. (Just thought I would answer this one question since I had left you with a question.)

[S2M]

10 pages...and I have not heard one believer even ask any non-believer the reasons why they don't believe. Granted, I have offered a few...but my answers weren't all inclusive. No offense, but i do find the religious a bit defensive, and sensitive.....

I have noticed that most religious people have had tough times in their lives that facilitated leaning on a supreme being for guidance(once again, external locus)....which, honestly, I really don't have a problem with...but in the extremes...seems like a whole lot of victimstance(a term I made up to describe those who always play the victim)....

Religion does a lot of good things, on the surface....but religion's origins are in crowd control. And I can't get past religion's less than admirable intention of preying on lost, impressionable individuals, and re-programming them into dutiful, tithe-supporting lemmings of the church.....

[artist4perry]

10 pages...and I have not heard one believer even ask any non-believer the reasons why they don't believe. Granted, I have offered a few...but my answers weren't all inclusive. No offense, but i do find the religious a bit defensive, and sensitive.....

I have noticed that most religious people have had tough times in their lives that facilitated leaning on a supreme being for guidance(once again, external locus)....which, honestly, I really don't have a problem with...but in the extremes...seems like a whole lot of victimstance(a term I made up to describe those who always play the victim)....

Religion does a lot of good things, on the surface....but religion's origins are in crowd control. And I can't get past religion's less than admirable intention of preying on lost, impressionable individuals, and re-programming them into dutiful, tithe-supporting lemmings of the church.....

Baiting for 20 pages? LOL Your so predictable. Have a good day Sean.

[S2M]

Baiting for 20 pages? LOL Your so predictable. Have a good day Sean.

Not at all....quit deflecting. Just made a comment. This thread will either proceed, or die out on the basis of its own merits.

Trying trying to have a dialogue here....some discourse on a topic which I find fascinating. Either participate, or don't....

[Rip Rokken]

10 pages...and I have not heard one believer even ask any non-believer the reasons why they don't believe.

It's generally the case. And I'm sincere in being open to answers for why I should believe - I remain as disappointed as I was when I was still in faith and still wanting.

Religion does a lot of good things, on the surface....but religion's origins are in crowd control. And I can't get past religion's less than admirable intention of preying on lost, impressionable individuals, and re-programming them into dutiful, tithe-supporting lemmings of the church.....

You could replace "Religion" with Hamas or Hezbollah, and "church" with "cause" and the statement would be equally as true.

[Rip Rokken]

Here is a clip that will give you some idea of where Hitchens is coming from. I agree with him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZJYZ8E7 ... re=related

Excellent clip, and it led me to this clip of Christopher Hitchens' Ten Commandments"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-63cTYJDCA

In pure Hitch fashion, he tossed in an unexpected bit of humor in his 8th Commandment - had me rolling!!! His version starts at 6:15.

[S2M]

I guess one of my main gripes about religion is living a life of Faith and sacrifice for some future promise that I'm never going to truly know....the catch is dying is the only way to know if your life was well spent in the eyes of the church/'god'...and if this is such a sought after goal, why aren't more people committing suicide to get there faster?

That's why I actually LOVED that movie Martyrs...it covers just this topic.

[Rip Rokken]

I guess one of my main gripes about religion is living a life of Faith and sacrifice for some future promise that I'm never going to truly know....the catch is dying is the only way to know if your life was well spent in the eyes of the church/'god'...and if this is such a sought after goal, why aren't more people committing suicide to get there faster?

That's why I actually LOVED that movie Martyrs...it covers just this topic.

Is it on Netflix? I'm running low on good stuff right now.