F-16 pilots planned to ram Flight 93

[Melissa]

Anyone here that is really interested might enjoy this article...note: it's from Sept 9, 2002.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... ull&next=0

That was an interesting read, thanks. Didn't know F-15's had gone up also, my father worked on those too, along with F-4's, while stationed in Japan.

[Saint John]

A plane that crashes , doesn't have 5 miles of debris across the ground.


FLIGHT 93 SHOT DOWN

Well, unfortunately, physics would say you're wrong:

The Explosion


The Explosion

Ok, so the crash site appears to agree with the eyewitnesses except for one thing; how could some of the plane be found deep in the ground while some of it is miles away? There was debris that landed as far as 8 miles from the crash site. How could that have happened? Conspiracy advocates say that this proves the plane had to be hit by a missile while still high in the sky. Also, there was part of one engine that was found about a mile from the crash site.

When that plane hit the ground it began to go into the ground, but at the same time it began to collapse like an accordion until the explosion. The blast pushed some of the parts even farther into the ground, but blasting the parts above the ground out into the air.

The Little Boy atomic bomb that destroyed Hiroshima in 1945 was equal to about 13,000 tons of TNT. (1) It is estimated that there was still 18.75 tons of jet fuel on Flight 93 when it crashed. Jet fuel is ten times more powerful than TNT (24). So the jet fuel was at least equal to 187 tons of TNT, significantly less than an atomic bomb but certainly powerful enough to destroy a plane and send small pieces of it 8 miles away. The explosion was so powerful it shook the entire town of Shanksville and was even felt ten miles away. Could a missile hitting the plane in the air do that? No!

The rest of the nonsense you've posted has been so thoroughly and easily debunked that it really doesn't warrant any further arguing on my side. Nobody believes that babble. science, eyewitnesses, local radar towers and the evidence prove exactly what happened. And it's the story most of us know to be true.

[Behshad]

A plane that crashes , doesn't have 5 miles of debris across the ground.


FLIGHT 93 SHOT DOWN

Well, unfortunately, physics would say you're wrong:

The Explosion


The Explosion

Ok, so the crash site appears to agree with the eyewitnesses except for one thing; how could some of the plane be found deep in the ground while some of it is miles away? There was debris that landed as far as 8 miles from the crash site. How could that have happened? Conspiracy advocates say that this proves the plane had to be hit by a missile while still high in the sky. Also, there was part of one engine that was found about a mile from the crash site.

When that plane hit the ground it began to go into the ground, but at the same time it began to collapse like an accordion until the explosion. The blast pushed some of the parts even farther into the ground, but blasting the parts above the ground out into the air.

The Little Boy atomic bomb that destroyed Hiroshima in 1945 was equal to about 13,000 tons of TNT. (1) It is estimated that there was still 18.75 tons of jet fuel on Flight 93 when it crashed. Jet fuel is ten times more powerful than TNT (24). So the jet fuel was at least equal to 187 tons of TNT, significantly less than an atomic bomb but certainly powerful enough to destroy a plane and send small pieces of it 8 miles away. The explosion was so powerful it shook the entire town of Shanksville and was even felt ten miles away. Could a missile hitting the plane in the air do that? No!

The rest of the nonsense you've posted has been so thoroughly and easily debunked that it really doesn't warrant any further arguing on my side. Nobody believes that babble. science, eyewitnesses, local radar towers and the evidence prove exactly what happened. And it's the story most of us know to be true.

What you posted above is the nonsesne, because you have no clue what youre copying & pasting. Get back to me once you get your facts straight when it comes to Jet Fuel vs TNT.
Just as a starter: TNT actually does have less potential energy than gasoline, but it is the high velocity at which this energy is released that produces the blast pressure. The BLAST PRESSURE caused by jet fuel wouldnt even come nearly the one of a bomb/TNT,
Jet Fuel is even less flammable than the fuel you put in your Jeep So your so called fact that a plane hitting the ground would create an explosion comparable to any kind of (atomic) bomb explosion is not really a fact but Saint Fiction¹
As I said, 2 sides to the story , you chose the side that make sense to you and I chose the side that makes sense to me Theres also eyewitnesses from both side, but just because you believe the eyewitness that confirm what you belive , doesnt make it FACT

No answers to our friend verslibre's questions ?



¹ Saint Fiction : Saint John's personal facts

[Saint John]

Yawn. Popular Mechanics easily debunked all of the nonsense that the Lochness and Bigfoot crowd tried to make up:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technol ... -flight-93

Lastly, the debris field suggests exactly what happened ... that flight 93 started coming apart in mid-air, which is scientifically explained by the struggle for control over the aircraft. It was being fought over in a way that would have started to rip the craft apart. And that's exactly what the evidence suggests.

[Behshad]

Yawn. Popular Mechanics easily debunked all of the nonsense that the Lochness and Bigfoot crowd tried to make up:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technol ... -flight-93

Lastly, the debris field suggests exactly what happened ... that flight 93 started coming apart in mid-air, which is scientifically explained by the struggle for control over the aircraft. It was being fought over in a way that would have started to rip the craft apart. And that's exactly what the evidence suggests.

Oh I see, so the plane was just ripping apart because of the people wrestling eachother and the pilot yellin " everyone sit down before I turn this plane around" ? Yep thats exactly what happend.
They didnt debunk nothing. Its their story vs the plane shot down story. Care to explain why Rumsfeld would even mention the plane being shot down ?

[Behshad]

Yawn. Popular Mechanics easily debunked all of the nonsense that the Lochness and Bigfoot crowd tried to make up:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technol ... -flight-93

Lastly, the debris field suggests exactly what happened ... that flight 93 started coming apart in mid-air, which is scientifically explained by the struggle for control over the aircraft. It was being fought over in a way that would have started to rip the craft apart. And that's exactly what the evidence suggests.

But but Rumsfeld let it slip Dan, just like when The Won let slip his "Muslim Faith."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMUgNg7aD8M


Soooo...it must be true....besides, we all know that Bush and Rove are completely controlling what all of these pilots have to say. They're all in on it. Only Behshad and Michael Moore know the real story.



pssst....B...."3 can keep a secret if 2 are dead."

I dont know the real story (and neither do you ! ) . But based on info I have gathered , I know what I personally think happened. Doesnt make it FACT, but you and Dan as always think if you two believe it, then its FACT

[conversationpc]

Yawn. Popular Mechanics easily debunked all of the nonsense that the Lochness and Bigfoot crowd tried to make up:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technol ... -flight-93

Lastly, the debris field suggests exactly what happened ... that flight 93 started coming apart in mid-air, which is scientifically explained by the struggle for control over the aircraft. It was being fought over in a way that would have started to rip the craft apart. And that's exactly what the evidence suggests.

Oh I see, so the plane was just ripping apart because of the people wrestling eachother and the pilot yellin " everyone sit down before I turn this plane around" ? Yep thats exactly what happend.
They didnt debunk nothing. Its their story vs the plane shot down story. Care to explain why Rumsfeld would even mention the plane being shot down ?

Just the people jostling around in the airplane wouldn't do it but some of the very erratic movements that they would have caused the plane itself to make could cause enough turbulence, torque, or whatever you call it to cause physical damage to the airplane. At least that's the way I understand it.

[Behshad]

Yawn. Popular Mechanics easily debunked all of the nonsense that the Lochness and Bigfoot crowd tried to make up:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technol ... -flight-93

Lastly, the debris field suggests exactly what happened ... that flight 93 started coming apart in mid-air, which is scientifically explained by the struggle for control over the aircraft. It was being fought over in a way that would have started to rip the craft apart. And that's exactly what the evidence suggests.

Oh I see, so the plane was just ripping apart because of the people wrestling eachother and the pilot yellin " everyone sit down before I turn this plane around" ? Yep thats exactly what happend.
They didnt debunk nothing. Its their story vs the plane shot down story. Care to explain why Rumsfeld would even mention the plane being shot down ?

Just the people jostling around in the airplane wouldn't do it but some of the very erratic movements that they would have caused the plane itself to make could cause enough turbulence, torque, or whatever you call it to cause physical damage to the airplane. At least that's the way I understand it.

OK,
Here is few of "Dan's people" who saw what happened, but not one single person said the plane had ripped apart ;) So which way is it Danny Boy !?

The plane seemed to be fully, or largely, intact. "I didn't see no smoke, nothing," said Nevin Lambert, an elderly farmer who witnessed the crash from his side yard less than a half-mile away.

---------------------------------------------------------

“I never in my life thought I would see a plane crash right before my very eyes,” said Purbaugh, who was at the wreckage within minutes after the crash.

Purbaugh’s second day on the job at Rollock Inc., a scrap metal company which owns the Diamond T mine, a former PBS Coals dig directly above the crash site, came with a shocking surprise. The crash happened within 200 yards of Purbaugh’s view.

“I happened to hear this noise and looked up,” said Purbaugh, who indicated the plane was about 40 to 50 feet above him. “I didn’t know if I should duck or what because this plane was so low but then in a split second it hit.”

---------------------------------------------------------

A few miles north of Lambertsville, yard man Terry Butler, 40, was toiling away at Stoystown Auto Wreckers.

He thought it was odd that a plane was in the area. He'd heard that all air traffic nationwide had been halted after the World Trade Center disaster about an hour earlier.

"It dropped out of the clouds," too low for a commercial flight, Butler said. The plane rose slightly, trying to gain altitude, then "it just went flip to the right and then straight down."


---------------------------------------------------------


"It came in low over the trees and started wobbling," said Tim Thornsberg, a resident of Somerset County, who was working near an old strip mine when he saw the plane.

"Then it just rolled over and was flying upside down for a few seconds ... and then it kind of stalled and did a nose dive over the trees. It was just unreal to see something like that."
…
Charles Sturtz, who lives about a half-mile from the crash site, said he saw the plane in the air for a few seconds, and saw no smoke, heard no explosions before the crash and saw no other planes in the sky

---------------------------------------------------------


Kelly Leverknight was watching news of the attacks on New York and Washington when she heard the plane.

It sounded like it was flying low above her home in rural Pennsylvania, moving from west to east. It was an odd enough sound that she stepped outside to have a look.

"I heard the plane going over and I went out the front door and I saw the plane going down," said Leverknight, 36. "It was headed toward the school, which panicked me, because all three of my kids were there.

"Then you heard the explosion and felt the blast and saw the fire and smoke." Leverknight and dozens of her neighbors raced to the Shanksville-Stonycreek School where they found their children safe

[Saint John]

The last phone calls were made from the plane at about 10 am, and they have recordings stating that the "counter attack" was about to begin. The final recordings contain Muslim prayers as the passengers gain entry into the cockpit, and the last muffled screams at 10:05 am are in English. The plane crashes at 10:06 am. Again, everything is in a perfect timeline. Unless, of course, the people on the planes are actually still alive and just playing a cruel joke on their loved ones, the phone companies are in on it and their records have been altered. Yeah, that seems plausible.

PS I'm not even getting into the simple physics of how a plane could start coming apart from intentional pilot error. That's almost as silly as arguing that you couldn't damage a car by driving it like a fool.

[Don]

I've seen the after effects a Pavelow helicopter where the pilot pulled so hard to avoid hitting a cliff face that he bent the frame of the copter. Now imagine an aircraft with ten times the engine power.
If some one slams the throttles forward full force while the yoke is yanked towards any axis, and then yanks the throttles back, you got potential for major damage to the ailerons, and spoilers where some thing is going to end up breaking away and creating a chain reaction of structural failure from the wings moving inward.

[conversationpc]

I've seen the after effects a Pavelow helicopter where the pilot pulled so hard to avoid hitting a cliff face that he bent the frame of the copter. Now imagine an aircraft with ten times the engine power.
If some one slams the throttles forward full force while the yoke is yanked towards any axis, and then yanks the throttles back, you got potential for major damage to the ailerons, and spoilers where some thing is going to end up breaking away and creating a chain reaction of structural failure from the wings moving inward.

Bingo and Yahtzee!

[Behshad]

The last phone calls were made from the plane at about 10 am, and they have recordings stating that the "counter attack" was about to begin. The final recordings contain Muslim prayers as the passengers gain entry into the cockpit, and the last muffled screams at 10:05 am are in English. The plane crashes at 10:06 am. Again, everything is in a perfect timeline. Unless, of course, the people on the planes are actually still alive and just playing a cruel joke on their loved ones, the phone companies are in on it and their records have been altered. Yeah, that seems plausible.

Lets rewind back to the morning of 9/11/01
Up until that morning, anytime a plane would be hijacked, no one ever thought the plane could be used as a weapon the way the terrorists used it that morning.
Almost any and all hijacking incidents would result in the plane landing, some negotiations, and eventually killing or capturing the hijackers and rescuing the hostages.
That morning everything chaged as we all know.
Now once youre in a plane like Flight 93 and you find out there are hijackers aboard, fear spreads quickly inside that plane and dont know about you, but most people would have this sick to the stomach feeling, nervousity and again FEAR. During the time you know you have hijackers aboard, you dont think that this is my last chance to say goodbye to my family , cause you know that every little noise you make could be observed and could result in your life ending RIGHT THEN AND THERE.
We all know that when the plane was taken over it was above 8000 feet and back in 2001 the technology didnt allow us to make cellular phone calls midair. Yes there were Airphones at some planes where you could slide your credit card and make a phone call. However you have to realize that these passengeres did not know what was going on in NYC. They were scared for their lives and they figured this plane will land shortly and negotiations begin and hopefully they will come out of it just fine.
Of course had this hijacking happend a day or a week or month after 9/11 , I would understand peoples reaction being different than "normal procedures" and they would try to do something about it. But that morning all they were worried about is how soon will we land and how effective the negotiations will be to save their lives.
Now lets say against all odds, few brave passangers DID contact their loved ones, found out about twin towers and then decided to take the plane down.
Even if this happened, our government wasnt aware of what is really goin on inside that plane. All they know about was that the plane is not responding and its headed towards DC.
The president had ordered the Air Force to take down ANY plane that doesnt respond back. There were F16 around Flight 93 and unless you are suggesting that through some Holllywod style miracle a passenger contacts their family, tell them " dont worry about us, we are takin this plane down", the family member quickly calls authotrities, they get a hold of President, he gets in touch with Air Force and they notify the pilots of F-16, last second with their thumbs on the red button, hear "abort mission" , and then plane is taken down, makes for a great story.
So EVEN if there was a heroci action onboard and people trying to take the plane down, thoose F16 pilots didnt know anything about it and they did what they were ordered to do , BRING IT DOWN.

Now, neither you or I know EXACTLY what happened that morning and probably will never find out.
Im giving you theories, you THINK youre coming up with FACTS. We both should know that we can not convince eachother about what we think happened that morning.

If the plane was shot down , would you see the Air Force pilots as the bad guys? I sure as hell dont. They did what they had to do.
I bet you most of us agree that if we had the opportunity to shoot down the planes that hit the twin towers (which we didnt ), we should have done so and people wouldve totally understood why we did it.Not only would we have saved lives of those in the towers, but also the buildings of course and it wouldve been a big FUCK YOU to the terrorist that their plan FAILED.
The same way, I think people would understand why we had to bring Flight 93 down, SPECIALLY after people witnessed what couldve happened if that plane wasnt shot down.
I just think that IF flight 93 was shot down ( which I personaly believe it was ), the government shouldve not kept it a secret from the people.
The people on that plane should be seen as heroes regardless of HOW the plane went down, simply because their lives were sacrificed to save thousands of other people's lives.

I dont expect you to "buy" this, but dont try to force your FF-style copy&paste SPECULATIONS and THEORIES as FACT!


Couple of simple questions you failed to answer :

Why would Donald Rumsfeld mention anything about the plane being shot down ?

Why wouldnt any of "your eyewitnesses" see the plane ripping apart as its crashing. You say the debris is caused by the plane being ripped apart midair before the crash, but you also say the debris was cause of the crash impact and explosion cause Jet fuel is 10 times stronger than TNT

PS I'm not even getting into the simple physics of how a plane could start coming apart from intentional pilot error. That's almost as silly as arguing that you couldn't damage a car by driving it like a fool.

Driving a car like a fool and going left and right on the road doesnt damage the car to the point it starts ripping apart . Impact with other objects does. FACT!