2011-2012 NFL Season Thread

[S2M]

NFL desperate for a feel good story allow Buffalo to get their 3rd win. That call in the endzone against Sergio Brown for merely existing,cand taking up space, cost NE that game...ball was underthrown AND an INT. And what happened to that timeout?!

Dude. Brady threw 4 interceptions + a pick 6. New England had a 21-0 lead. I think you missed the part where a Patriots defensive player had the Bills receiver hugged in the endzone, preventing him to atleast make a play on it. Take the loss, sulk in it and cry some more. New England wins, "welcome to the slaughterhouse." New England loses "it's fixed." Good luck with THAT defense. Fuck New England.

Stay classy, Trav...keep feasting on the Seattles of the league.

And it was a slaughterhouse in the first half, then the refs took over. And you are correct, if Brady threw ONE less INT - this game is different. But there were some definite shady happenings with the refs today.

And,btw, only the pass to Gronk was Brady's fault...one was off a helmet, one was when Wes fell, and the other was a POP WARNER route by 85...2 of those were in the RZ.

[YoungJRNY]

NFL desperate for a feel good story allow Buffalo to get their 3rd win. That call in the endzone against Sergio Brown for merely existing,cand taking up space, cost NE that game...ball was underthrown AND an INT. And what happened to that timeout?!

Dude. Brady threw 4 interceptions + a pick 6. New England had a 21-0 lead. I think you missed the part where a Patriots defensive player had the Bills receiver hugged in the endzone, preventing him to atleast make a play on it. Take the loss, sulk in it and cry some more. New England wins, "welcome to the slaughterhouse." New England loses "it's fixed." Good luck with THAT defense. Fuck New England.

Stay classy, Trav...keep feasting on the Seattles of the league.

And it was a slaughterhouse in the first half, then the refs took over. And you are correct, if Brady threw ONE less INT - this game is different. But there were some definite shady happenings with the refs today.

And,btw, only the pass to Gronk was Brady's fault...one was off a helmet, one was when Wes fell, and the other was a POP WARNER route by 85...2 of those were in the RZ.

I just want to see some more crying in true S2M fashion. You aren't disappointing. Talk about classy? You can't take a loss like a man like the rest of us when called upon.

JFB will own up and take it like a man, I surely admit when Pittsburgh gets their ass handed to them on a silver platter. Just act like you have a penis and not a vajay in ONE post. Just admit one time that you got your ass beat that whole second half. If not, I'm looking forward to more whining.

[Enigma869]

Absolute HORRID performance by the Patriots. Their defense is fucking ABYSMAL, and they should be embarrassed by their play. While Brady didn't play great, he still passed for almost 400 yards and 4 TD's. The 4 picks were awful, but two of them were deflections, and there isn't a damn thing any QB can do about a deflected pass. That said, how the hell that assclown Chad Johnson missed the superbly thrown pass by Brady is beyond me. I thought it was a poor play call when I saw Brady throwing it down the field, and Brady put it right in his hands. There were WAY too many things that went wrong in this one for the Patriots. Bring on the Raiders!

[Enigma869]

That call in the endzone against Sergio Brown for merely existing,cand taking up space, cost NE that game.

That was an absurd call. I was watching the game with a Patriots hater and he couldn't believed that they called that interference. If anything, it was offensive interference, because the offensive player made the first contact. That said, I disagree that was "the reason" the Patriots lost that game. The reality is that in the first half, they really looked great. They simply forgot to come out to play in the second half.

And what happened to that timeout?!

I suspect Belichick didn't heed the referee's warning for bitching at him and tying him up on the sidelines while trying to plead his case (about whatever he was whining about) and the referee simply charged the team a timeout for holding up the game. I really don't have a problem with Belichick being treated like any other coach. He's too experienced to even allow something like that to happen.

[S2M]

Nah...I'll decline, Trav...just once I'd like to see some unabashed real thoughts in this thread, instead of passive attempts to make oneself look good. I really don't care what people think of my takes. And I'm sure people have made snap judgments about me because of it. Just rolls off my back, bro...if all it takes is a sports take to make a snap decision about someone's worth - wow.

Remove the filters....stop caring what folks think.

[mikemarrs]

Titans are now 2-1, and tied for first in the AFC South after defeating Denver 17-14 but the real shocker are these stats...

Chris Johnson has 46 carries for 98 yards in three games.Matt Hasselbeck is pretty much near the top of the league in passing with three straight 300 yard passing games so far.Its been Hasselbeck and the team defense coming through because honestly CJ has done nothing so far.


Tennessee faces Cleveland next Sunday and these Browns definitely seem like they are rising.The last few years they haven't been that good but they are putting together little by little a pretty good squad.Mike Holmgrem formerly of Green Bay and Seattle is now trying to work his magic in Cleveland and get that team to compete.

[YoungJRNY]

Nah...I'll decline, Trav...just once I'd like to see some unabashed real thoughts in this thread, instead of passive attempts to make oneself look good. I really don't care what people think of my takes. And I'm sure people have made snap judgments about me because of it. Just rolls off my back, bro...if all it takes is a sports take to make a snap decision about someone's worth - wow.

Remove the filters....stop caring what folks think.

Oh boy. Now you're just being overly sensitive on the matter. Relax, it's nothing against you as a person whatsoever. This is the NFL thread. If you can't take it as much as you dish it, especially your witty comments when your teams wins then I don't know what to say. Got to have a tougher skin than this S2M, come on brutha! You should know how it works by now.

[S2M]

Nah...I'll decline, Trav...just once I'd like to see some unabashed real thoughts in this thread, instead of passive attempts to make oneself look good. I really don't care what people think of my takes. And I'm sure people have made snap judgments about me because of it. Just rolls off my back, bro...if all it takes is a sports take to make a snap decision about someone's worth - wow.

Remove the filters....stop caring what folks think.

Oh boy. Now you're just being overly sensitive on the matter. Relax, it's nothing against you as a person whatsoever. This is the NFL thread. If you can't take it as much as you dish it, especially your witty comments when your teams wins then I don't know what to say. Got to have a tougher skin than this S2M, come on brutha! You should know how it works by now.

Totally not even what I'm talking about. I couldn't care less what others think. My point was the opposite, in fact. I'm saying that others should be more like me - not filtering the commentary. Majority wants to look good over the truth...it's ok to point out errors, blown calls...etc. When I see Sergio Brown called for PI on an underthrown ball, I'm just left shaking my head....am I supposed to just let it go, and shut my face? Nope. Buffalo got the bounces, and the calls...period.

[YoungJRNY]

Nah...I'll decline, Trav...just once I'd like to see some unabashed real thoughts in this thread, instead of passive attempts to make oneself look good. I really don't care what people think of my takes. And I'm sure people have made snap judgments about me because of it. Just rolls off my back, bro...if all it takes is a sports take to make a snap decision about someone's worth - wow.

Remove the filters....stop caring what folks think.

Oh boy. Now you're just being overly sensitive on the matter. Relax, it's nothing against you as a person whatsoever. This is the NFL thread. If you can't take it as much as you dish it, especially your witty comments when your teams wins then I don't know what to say. Got to have a tougher skin than this S2M, come on brutha! You should know how it works by now.

Totally not even what I'm talking about. I couldn't care less what others think. My point was the opposite, in fact. I'm saying that others should be more like me - not filtering the commentary. Majority wants to look good over the truth...it's ok to point out errors, blown calls...etc. When I see Sergio Brown called for PI on an underthrown ball, I'm just left shaking my head....am I supposed to just let it go, and shut my face? Nope. Buffalo got the bounces, and the calls...period.

Maybe your points would be more valid if you wouldn't bitch and moan after every single yellow flag hits the ground, OR a mis-call for that matter. Drops, penalties, injuries, 'bounces', wins, and losses are all apart of football (every team goes through them) and you not owning up to the final score, which is the ONLY deciding factor when all said and done, is a laugh.

New England owned a 21 point lead to a much, much inferior team and had their spikes on the throat of the Bills, a team they've owned for 8 years. New England hardly lost the game on one flag thrown by the ref. Look more into the defensive performance and failing to finishing a team off up by 21. That's more alarming than what the refs see fit on the field. What? You think you were going to go 16-0 again? New England will be fine. Just hope your defense starts coming out of their cave.


Meanwhile, the Jets failing to capitalize on the Pats losing in the East. Raiders scored 31 unanswered points and beating N.Y 31-17.

[YoungJRNY]

Through 3 weeks, it looks like noone is up to the task at knocking off Green Bay thus far. Man, what a team they have. Capable for repeating that's for sure. And as soon as I type that, Urlacher INT, haha. EDIT: Cutler throws a pick to return the favor.

[S2M]

Trav, all great points...however. Please take a philosophy course if one is offered at your college.

I don't care if NE was up 71-0, and a team came back to win. You must look at the questionable calls of the game. The scoreboard points to a winner, and a loser...but not in reality, unless one team just flat out smokes the other.

Also, logically, you have to look at the last instance a team has to win when determining why a team lost. If a team is in a position to win a game in the waning seconds of a game, only to fail - that is why they lost...not some missed opportunity in the 1st Q....the missed opportunity would have made it easier, but hardly a reason for the loss. The only difference being a point swing like the blown PI call on Brown....

[YoungJRNY]

Trav, all great points...however. Please take a philosophy course if one is offered at your college.

I don't care if NE was up 71-0, and a team came back to win. You must look at the questionable calls of the game. The scoreboard points to a winner, and a loser...but not in reality, unless one team just flat out smokes the other.

Also, logically, you have to look at the last instance a team has to win when determining why a team lost. If a team is in a position to win a game in the waning seconds of a game, only to fail - that is why they lost...not some missed opportunity in the 1st Q....the missed opportunity would have made it easier, but hardly a reason for the loss. The only difference being a point swing like the blown PI call on Brown....

You must understand how football works because looking at it THAT way at every turn is just whining at its best. There's nothing really more to dispute because football works off of the same formula and the game has been living and going strong off of that SAME formula since its creation.

To sit there and dissect every lost opportunity because of the damn referee is just despicable for debate. Every single fan of every single NFL team who's ever witnessed their team lose can pull out what you pull out every time your team loses.

I can probably point out 10 non-holding calls against James Harrison tonight or maybe there will be 4 or 5 bad calls to keep Indy in the game. So be it, it's football, it's how the game is played and sometimes it's the way the game crumbles in front of your eyes. Sometimes, you just have to ACCEPT it. I've got a buddy who operates the same exact way. He just can't admit when he loses at something or needs to just say "we lost today." Can't do it.

But trust me, I love S2M for being S2M. I'm glad you have your own style. Keeps the juices flowin'.

[conversationpc]

Trav, all great points...however. Please take a philosophy course if one is offered at your college.

I don't care if NE was up 71-0, and a team came back to win. You must look at the questionable calls of the game. The scoreboard points to a winner, and a loser...but not in reality, unless one team just flat out smokes the other.

Also, logically, you have to look at the last instance a team has to win when determining why a team lost. If a team is in a position to win a game in the waning seconds of a game, only to fail - that is why they lost...not some missed opportunity in the 1st Q....the missed opportunity would have made it easier, but hardly a reason for the loss. The only difference being a point swing like the blown PI call on Brown....

You must understand how football works because looking at it THAT way at every turn is just whining at its best. There's nothing really more to dispute because football works off of the same formula and the game has been living and going strong off of that SAME formula since its creation.

To sit there and dissect every lost opportunity because of the damn referee is just despicable for debate. Every single fan of every single NFL team who's ever witnessed their team lose can pull out what you pull out every time your team loses.

I can probably point out 10 non-holding calls against James Harrison tonight or maybe there will be 4 or 5 bad calls to keep Indy in the game. So be it, it's football, it's how the game is played and sometimes it's the way the game crumbles in front of your eyes. Sometimes, you just have to ACCEPT it. I've got a buddy who operates the same exact way. He just can't admit when he loses at something or needs to just say "we lost today." Can't do it.

But trust me, I love S2M for being S2M. I'm glad you have your own style. Keeps the juices flowin'.

Even if the Pats lost the game on a referee's blown call (they didn't), it's not like the Patriots haven't had their share of calls go their way and assisted them in winning games in the not-too-distant past.

[YoungJRNY]

Nice upset pick, JFB. A lot of people were riding the Raiders jock for the upset but I thought the Jets would have more bite as far as a Ryan team. Maybe they looked too soon up at that score board.

[Enigma869]

When I see Sergio Brown called for PI on an underthrown ball, I'm just left shaking my head.

Dude...even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile. Hell, a broken clock is right twice a day. You are correct (for once) that it really was a bad call. That said, every call that doesn't go the way you believe it should go is a "bad call" (even if the officials got the call right). Incidentally, the fact that the ball was underthrown really has nothing to do with the fact it was a bad call. The reality is that Sergio Brown never initiated contact on that play. The Buffalo receiver put a bear hug on him before the ball got there, and I was baffled by that call.

[S2M]

When I see Sergio Brown called for PI on an underthrown ball, I'm just left shaking my head.

Dude...even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile. Hell, a broken clock is right twice a day. You are correct (for once) that it really was a bad call. That said, every call that doesn't go the way you believe it should go is a "bad call" (even if the officials got the call right). Incidentally, the fact that the ball was underthrown really has nothing to do with the fact it was a bad call. The reality is that Sergio Brown never initiated contact on that play. The Buffalo receiver put a bear hug on him before the ball got there, and I was baffled by that call.

Actually, john, that is not true...the fact that the ball was underthrown, and the receiver "tried" to come back for it, was the reason the flag was thrown....I sent a tweet to mike Pereira, he responded...telling me that the receiver is entitled to be allowed back to an underthrown ball...which is BS, btw...like I said, what was Sergio supposed to do, teleport out of the way?

[YoungJRNY]

Going into the Sunday night game of week 3:

John From Boston: 6-8 (26-19 overall)

Travis From Burgh: 7-7 (28- 18 overall)

[Ehwmatt]

Going into the Sunday night game of week 3:

John From Boston: 6-8 (26-19 overall)

Travis From Burgh: 7-7 (28- 18 overall)

Matt: 48-0

[Enigma869]

Actually, john, that is not true...the fact that the ball was underthrown, and the receiver "tried" to come back for it, was the reason the flag was thrown....I sent a tweet to mike Pereira, he responded...telling me that the receiver is entitled to be allowed back to an underthrown ball...which is BS, btw...like I said, what was Sergio supposed to do, teleport out of the way?

I guess I don't really understand the logic. As far as I could tell, the flag was thrown because contact was made, and the offical perceived (wrongly) that Brown made the contact. Whether the receiver tries to come back for the ball or not, he can't initiate the contact, which he clearly did. I don't know that a Bills fan could even see that play any differently. I'm not an excuse maker, at all, but I will say that nothing pisses me off more than when officials get calls wrong in games. I know they're human, and I know it happens. For me, it doesn't matter whether it's a team I'm rooting for or not. I simply like seeing the correct call made, which is why I've always been in favor of instant replay It still burns my ass that Jim Joyce cost Armando Galarraga a perfect game. I realize that it wasn't intentional, but with all the technology in ballparks and stadiums, calls like that simply can't happen.

[Enigma869]

Going into the Sunday night game of week 3:

John From Boston: 6-8 (26-19 overall)

Travis From Burgh: 7-7 (28- 18 overall)

I had as good of a week as the Patriots! This defense scares the shit out of me, and if Patriots fans are honest with themselves, this team is going NOWHERE with this defense. This isn't an overreaction to losing to the Bills, because games like this happen EVERY NFL season. What is FAR more disconcerting to me is that every QB the Patriots face, throws for close to 400 yards or more. You simply cannot win in the NFL playoffs playing defense like that. Right now, the Patriots are nothing more than what the Colts used to be, and that is nothing that I would ever want to strive for!

[YoungJRNY]

Going into the Sunday night game of week 3:

John From Boston: 6-8 (26-19 overall)

Travis From Burgh: 7-7 (28- 18 overall)

I had as good of a week as the Patriots! This defense scares the shit out of me, and if Patriots fans are honest with themselves, this team is going NOWHERE with this defense. This isn't an overreaction to losing to the Bills, because games like this happen EVERY NFL season. What is FAR more disconcerting to me is that every QB the Patriots face, throws for close to 400 yards or more. You simply cannot win in the NFL playoffs playing defense like that. Right now, the Patriots are nothing more than what the Colts used to be, and that is nothing that I would ever want to strive for!

I think I f'ed that up bud. We both are 7-7 right now going into Sunday Night. But I agree. When it comes down to it, it's the defense in the later season that separates the good playoff teams from the bad playoff teams, especially in December football. I don't really see any dominating defense's yet in 3 weeks but when it comes down to it, defense will be the saving grace in how deep in the playoffs a teams willing to go.

[Saint John]

Actually, john, that is not true...the fact that the ball was underthrown, and the receiver "tried" to come back for it, was the reason the flag was thrown....I sent a tweet to mike Pereira, he responded...telling me that the receiver is entitled to be allowed back to an underthrown ball...which is BS, btw...like I said, what was Sergio supposed to do, teleport out of the way?

I guess I don't really understand the logic. As far as I could tell, the flag was thrown because contact was made, and the offical perceived (wrongly) that Brown made the contact. Whether the receiver tries to come back for the ball or not, he can't initiate the contact, which he clearly did. I don't know that a Bills fan could even see that play any differently.

Pretty easy call and they got it right.

"Actions that constitute defensive pass interference ...

a) Contact by a defender who is not playing the ball and such contact restricts the receiver's opportunity to make the catch."

There it is, right there, irrefutably explaining that the officials got it right. It is absolutely imperative that the defensive player know where the thrown ball is. You're *confusing* who made contact here, John. He wasn't playing the ball, so as soon as that receiver starts coming back to the thrown ball, the contact is the fault of the defender, and the result is the (properly called) Pass Interference. It was a simple call, really.

[S2M]

There is no more "faceguarding", Dan...so the receiver need not know where the ball is...the ball was underthrown. Sergio was between the WR and the bal(NE player intercepting it). Not Brown's fault. WR initiated contact while morphing into a soccer player trying to get a call. Sergio is entitled to that real estate. You're wrong...that rule you cited may be correct, but that's not what transpired...

[Enigma869]

Pretty easy call and they got it right.

"Actions that constitute defensive pass interference ...

a) Contact by a defender who is not playing the ball and such contact restricts the receiver's opportunity to make the catch."

There it is, right there, irrefutably explaining that the officials got it right. It is absolutely imperative that the defensive player know where the thrown ball is. You're *confusing* who made contact here, John. He wasn't playing the ball, so as soon as that receiver starts coming back to the thrown ball, the contact is the fault of the defender, and the result is the (properly called) Pass Interference. It was a simple call, really.

Thanks for the lesson Goodell, but I'm reasonably certain that I don't need you or anyone else to cite the NFL rulebook. I'm well aware of what the rules are and I couldn't disagree more that "they got it right". The defender was turning for the ball when the intended receiver put a bear hug on him. This wasn't a situation where a defender was throwing his arms up with his back to the QB! Also, let's talk about your "contact by a defender" line. The defender NEVER made contact! The contact was made by the intended receiver, period, end of story! I watched the play on my TiVo 10 times, because I couldn't figure out how any official with functioning eyes could make that call.

[Saint John]

There is no more "faceguarding", Dan...so the receiver need not know where the ball is...the ball was underthrown. Sergio was between the WR and the bal(NE player intercepting it). Not Brown's fault. WR initiated contact while morphing into a soccer player trying to get a call. Sergio is entitled to that real estate. You're wrong...that rule you cited may be correct, but that's not what transpired...

Lol ... you and John can continue to try to make up your own rules, but you guys are actually arguing FOR the call without even knowing it! Underthrowing routes has become widely used and if the defender is in the way of a receiver coming back to the ball it is the defender that is initiating the contact because he is cutting off the receiver's route, planned or not (the underthrow). You 2 goofs, with your limited knowledge of what you're talking about in this case, are simply ruining the sour grapes you're stomping because your tears are going to muck up the flavor. You *think* that the receiver "initiated contact," but what you're not realizing is that the fucking NFL rules view the "receiver initiating contact" on a route like this as the defender's fault. Period. End of discussion and, most importantly, the right call! You 2 jackoffs are, herbey, dismissed.

[S2M]

Keep digging that hole, dan...there is no separate rule for underthrown balls, where the roles reverse and the offensive player becomes defender(only after a tipped ball does this happen).

In fact, the same sort of thing happened in the GB/Chi game between Woodson and Hester...and it wasn't called. Imagine that....selective officiating. You think GB was gonna actually get a flag against them?

[Saint John]

"I sent a tweet to Mike Pereira, he responded...telling me that the receiver is entitled to be allowed back to an underthrown ball...which is BS,"

The guy explained to you why it was interference ... but you think it's "BS" so I guess that's all that counts. Again, you're getting waaaay too hung up on the "underthrown" element of the play. It has nothing to do with it, really. It's the same fucking thing as making contact when it's "overthrown" and he's running under it to catch it! The matter is that the receiver's route back to the ball was impeded. Once the contact occurs on his way back to the ball, it is the fault of the defender. But I guess the written proof I provided from the NFL rulebook and the former NFL Vice President Of Officiating have it wrong. It should not be pass interference because ... you and John think so. Great argument!

[S2M]

"I sent a tweet to Mike Pereira, he responded...telling me that the receiver is entitled to be allowed back to an underthrown ball...which is BS,"

The guy explained to you why it was interference ... but you think it's "BS" so I guess that's all that counts. Again, you're getting waaaay too hung up on the "underthrown" element of the play. It has nothing to do with it, really. It's the same fucking thing as making contact when it's "overthrown" and he's running under it to catch it! The matter is that the receiver's route back to the ball was impeded. Once the contact occurs on his way back to the ball, it is the fault of the defender. But I guess the written proof I provided from the NFL rulebook and the former NFL Vice President Of Officiating have it wrong. It should not be pass interference because ... you and John think so. Great argument!

But yet the refs didn't call it in the GB/Chi game...Mike said it WAS it that instance, too. Refs said no. There is ZERO consistency...and ZERO accountability from officials.

Using your logic, on an overthrown ball, every time the defender is between the overthrown ball and the receiver - PI should be called. I mean, because the receiver was impeded from getting to the ball.

Just like they call an uncatchable ball sometimes, and wave off PI...they should call it the other way when it is WAY underthrown.

[Enigma869]

Lol ... you and John can continue to try to make up your own rules, but you guys are actually arguing FOR the call without even knowing it! Underthrowing routes has become widely used and if the defender is in the way of a receiver coming back to the ball it is the defender that is initiating the contact because he is cutting off the receiver's route, planned or not (the underthrow). You 2 goofs, with your limited knowledge of what you're talking about in this case, are simply ruining the sour grapes you're stomping because your tears are going to muck up the flavor. You *think* that the receiver "initiated contact," but what you're not realizing is that the fucking NFL rules view the "receiver initiating contact" on a route like this as the defender's fault. Period. End of discussion and, most importantly, the right call! You 2 jackoffs are, herbey, dismissed.

Whatever you say, genius. The point you're conveniently forgetting is that a receiver "coming back to a ball" is a complete judgment call. Many times when a ball is underthrown, the intended receiver takes a defensive posture and attempts to break up an interception. You're acting as if this is black and white, and it's a whole lot more shades of gray than your pompous ass thinks it is! If you think it was unequivocally pass interference, good for you. I don't think it was close. As I've already stated previously, I never suggested that was the reason the Patriots lost the game, and contrary to your dopey words, I can assure you that I'm not shedding any "tears" over a football game being lost!

[Saint John]

But yet the refs didn't call it in the GB/Chi game

Irrelevant. You're straying from the one play that we're talking about.

Using your logic, on an overthrown ball, every time the defender is between the overthrown ball and the receiver - PI should be called. I mean, because the receiver was impeded from getting to the ball.

No, for two reasons. First, there's no contact. Second, he obviously knows where the ball is and is making a play on it if he's in better position than the receiver and hasn't made any contact. The Brown play was different. The contact, although you and Joh believe was "initiated by the receiver" is not viewed that way, per the NFL rules. He's impeding his route, with contact, and right to come back to the ball. This is a great rule, as it eliminates the need to try and decipher whether or not the underthrow was intentional. This way, as it is now, it doesn't matter. You just assume that was the intention/route.

Just like they call an uncatchable ball sometimes, and wave off PI...they should call it the other way when it is WAY underthrown.

Here you go again, comparing apples and oranges. An overthrown ball is uncatchable, but an underthrown one is viewed as a route by the current interpretation of the rules, as Mike Pereira pointed out. Would it make you fucking feel better if the Bills showed you the design of the play and it had the receiver's route coming back to the ball?!? Because that's how the current rule views it, and that's why it was called!!! The defender HAS to know where the ball is, and if contact is made as the receiver is coming back to the ball, it's PI. This isn't really hard to understand. The rest of the NFL world realizes this! You can argue that the rule sucks, but you can't argue that the call was bad. Period. Game over!