Religion & Morality

[Duncan]

Amazing Grace........a song sung by many churches of many religions, it has a stirring message, one some can understand, and some of you will never know. It was written by a man who worked as a sailor on a slave ship, during a perilous storm this man feared for his life and called out to God for help. He was not a Christian before. He later wrote this stirring hymnal that was one of my Great Aunt's favorite. We sang it when we buried her. I don't care if any of you understand. I am telling you I have as much right to believe as you to not believe. I love my Lord with all my heart.

Below is a recording of my old college Alma mater singing Amazing Grace, and I Ain't got time to Die.

I sang both songs in high school in front of many churches across quite a few states. ( I was a member of the traveling choir, much like these young men and women are) It is a stirring heartfelt thing to sing of your love of the one who created and saved me. I don't owe you any explanation, argument, or apology.

Enjoy the beautiful voices. Oh by the way. We sing Acapella. No instruments except for our voices. We always sang loud and proud! Have a nice night.

AMAZING GRACE
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;
'Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far
and Grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me.
His word my hope secures.
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

When we've been here ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun.
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we've first begun.

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.


The last verse to Ain't Got time to Die

So just get outta my way, let me praise my Jesus
Outta my way let me praise my Lord
If I don't praise him, the rocks gonna cry out,
GLORY AND HONOR, GLORY AND HONOR
Ain't got time to die!






http://youtu.be/r8tpokp_f8o

Just as an aside. Amazing Grace was written by a slave trader who shat himself in a storm. Funny how when you are carrying out one of the most immoral acts imaginable and you are in fear of your own life that you turn to God. Note the aplogy to the slaves in the lyrics. That's right, there is none.

[verslibre]

It also needs stating that there is a covert rascist element to the comments made towards Parfait, which comes from the believers.

It must not be that "covert" if you readily noticed it.

I must ask: what is a rascist element? An element that is both racist and fascist?

Also, what is the allegedly racist remark? I haven't noticed anything in reference to his ethnicity, though his nationality has been the butt of many jokes on this forum in all sorts of threads.

[Duncan]

Amazing Grace........a song sung by many churches of many religions, it has a stirring message, one some can understand, and some of you will never know. It was written by a man who worked as a sailor on a slave ship, during a perilous storm this man feared for his life and called out to God for help. He was not a Christian before. He later wrote this stirring hymnal that was one of my Great Aunt's favorite. We sang it when we buried her. I don't care if any of you understand. I am telling you I have as much right to believe as you to not believe. I love my Lord with all my heart.

Below is a recording of my old college Alma mater singing Amazing Grace, and I Ain't got time to Die.

I sang both songs in high school in front of many churches across quite a few states. ( I was a member of the traveling choir, much like these young men and women are) It is a stirring heartfelt thing to sing of your love of the one who created and saved me. I don't owe you any explanation, argument, or apology.

Enjoy the beautiful voices. Oh by the way. We sing Acapella. No instruments except for our voices. We always sang loud and proud! Have a nice night.

AMAZING GRACE
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;
'Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far
and Grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promised good to me.
His word my hope secures.
He will my shield and portion be,
As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail,
And mortal life shall cease,
I shall possess within the veil,
A life of joy and peace.

When we've been here ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun.
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we've first begun.

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.


The last verse to Ain't Got time to Die

So just get outta my way, let me praise my Jesus
Outta my way let me praise my Lord
If I don't praise him, the rocks gonna cry out,
GLORY AND HONOR, GLORY AND HONOR
Ain't got time to die!






http://youtu.be/r8tpokp_f8o

Just as an aside. Amazing Grace was written by a slave trader who shat himself in a storm. Funny how when you are carrying out one of the most immoral acts imaginable and you are in fear of your own life that you turn to God. Note the aplogy to the slaves in the lyrics. That's right, there is none.

Sorry folks, but the more I think about this the the more bizarre it gets. This is the story. Slave trader, shat myself, storm, belief in god, write a song, saved.

Contrast that with someone who is an athiest, who works in medicine, strives to cure people from illness, but according to christians is going to hell forever, for the sole reason that they did not believe.

How sweet does that sound now?

[Duncan]

It also needs stating that there is a covert rascist element to the comments made towards Parfait, which comes from the believers.

It must not be that "covert" if you readily noticed it.

I must ask: what is a rascist element? An element that is both racist and fascist?

Also, what is the allegedly racist remark? I haven't noticed anything in reference to his ethnicity, though his nationality has been the butt of many jokes on this forum in all sorts of threads.

You're pissing in the wind pal. He's French, he deserves derision. That's the mentalty, and it exists. Whether that is technically racist or not, I don't give a shit, it is wrong.

[verslibre]

You're pissing in the wind pal.

And it's your own fault for standing downwind from me.

[verslibre]

He's French, he deserves derision. That's the mentalty, and it exists. Whether that is technically racist or not, I don't give a shit, it is wrong.

P.S. You never gave a shit before this thread. Funny, but true. And I noticed that guy gives (almost) as good as he gets.

[S2M]

The thing that confuses me more than anything is the emotion attached to believers. I've come to grips with the fact that people do believe...but they are so steadfast, and unshakeable(Sp) in that belief...even in the face of all the inconsistencies in what is being peddled as truth....people living inside whales, talking bushes....etc.

[Duncan]

He's French, he deserves derision. That's the mentalty, and it exists. Whether that is technically racist or not, I don't give a shit, it is wrong.

P.S. You never gave a shit before this thread. Funny, but true. And I noticed that guy gives (almost) as good as he gets.

So what, I'm in this thread and it counts now.

[Duncan]

It also needs stating that there is a covert rascist element to the comments made towards Parfait, which comes from the believers.

It must not be that "covert" if you readily noticed it.

I must ask: what is a rascist element? An element that is both racist and fascist?

Also, what is the allegedly racist remark? I haven't noticed anything in reference to his ethnicity, though his nationality has been the butt of many jokes on this forum in all sorts of threads.

It is also telling that you pick on the side issue to contest.

Do you think I'm going to hell?

[Duncan]

You're pissing in the wind pal.

And it's your own fault for standing downwind from me.

You weren't funny last night and the introduction of italics in to your repetoire of banality makes you no more so tonight.

[verslibre]

He's French, he deserves derision. That's the mentalty, and it exists. Whether that is technically racist or not, I don't give a shit, it is wrong.

P.S. You never gave a shit before this thread. Funny, but true. And I noticed that guy gives (almost) as good as he gets.

So what, I'm in this thread and it counts now.

The "so what" part is that numerous people on this forum have dumped on that guy. I've seen it. You've seen it. And now you're trying to pigeonhole "believers" as those who have some sort of..."racist" agenda against the guy?! You're a real piece of work.

It also needs stating that there is a covert rascist element to the comments made towards Parfait, which comes from the believers.

It must not be that "covert" if you readily noticed it.

I must ask: what is a rascist element? An element that is both racist and fascist?

Also, what is the allegedly racist remark? I haven't noticed anything in reference to his ethnicity, though his nationality has been the butt of many jokes on this forum in all sorts of threads.

It is also telling that you pick on the side issue to contest.

Do you think I'm going to hell?

I'll need more information from you first. What is your concept of "hell"? You might be there now.

You're pissing in the wind pal.

And it's your own fault for standing downwind from me.

You weren't funny last night and the introduction of italics in to your repetoire of banality makes you no more so tonight.

You sound mad. Lighten up. Have a powdered Donette or something. Snap into a Slim Jim!

[verslibre]

The thing that confuses me more than anything is the emotion attached to believers. I've come to grips with the fact that people do believe...but they are so steadfast, and unshakeable(Sp) in that belief...even in the face of all the inconsistencies in what is being peddled as truth....people living inside whales, talking bushes....etc.

I see quite a few people in this joint get emotional, and quite often.

Go look at that Obama thread. People calling each other "idiot" and "dickhead" and everything in-between. People who would normally be palsy-walsy when it comes to music. A real Jekyll-Hyde drama playing itself out over there.

[Duncan]

He's French, he deserves derision. That's the mentalty, and it exists. Whether that is technically racist or not, I don't give a shit, it is wrong.

P.S. You never gave a shit before this thread. Funny, but true. And I noticed that guy gives (almost) as good as he gets.

So what, I'm in this thread and it counts now.

The "so what" part is that numerous people on this forum have dumped on that guy. I've seen it. You've seen it. And now you're trying to pigeonhole "believers" as those who have some sort of..."racist" agenda against the guy?! You're a real piece of work.

It also needs stating that there is a covert rascist element to the comments made towards Parfait, which comes from the believers.

It must not be that "covert" if you readily noticed it.

I must ask: what is a rascist element? An element that is both racist and fascist?

Also, what is the allegedly racist remark? I haven't noticed anything in reference to his ethnicity, though his nationality has been the butt of many jokes on this forum in all sorts of threads.

It is also telling that you pick on the side issue to contest.

Do you think I'm going to hell?

I'll need more information from you first. What is your concept of "hell"? You might be there now.

You're pissing in the wind pal.

And it's your own fault for standing downwind from me.

You weren't funny last night and the introduction of italics in to your repetoire of banality makes you no more so tonight.

You sound mad. Lighten up. Have a powdered Donette or something. Snap into a Slim Jim!

Verslibre,

I'm not as proficient in the quote thing as you, but I will deal with each of your points, and will be generous and concede you have some. Others may not be quite so generous.

My comments re Parfait are incidental to the issue, but nevertheless in the context of this thread the attacks come from the religous. I concede it is irrelevent to the point.

I don't believe in hell. Whether or not I believe in it has no bearing on the Christian belief that non belivers go to hell. That's the whole point: I don't get a choice. Do you think I'm going to hell?. Are you going to dodge the question also?

I sound mad? I'll let anyone who cares to read this thread decide.

[artist4perry]

By the way what attacks? Because I am saying you guys are not keeping to the discussion in the spirit we were supposed to be discussing it? Because I point out that Parfait gets ugly when he discusses things? Now he can challenge our mentality but that is a compliment right? I do believe you started that.

Duncan have you ever thought that most people who have discussed and I mean discussed religion here quit because of the way some of you have been acting? Seriously your like a little child throwing a tantrum because your not getting your way. I.E. everyone giving up religion because of your nastiness.

The slave trader by the way, facing his mortality, realized he would die lost. He did change his life. And if you discovered that by being the sweet little angel you are here that you are lost according to the bible then it is what it is. I don't apologize for God. But that is only for you to decide after you study. Not for me to condemn you.
God doesn't want anyone to die lost, you have a choice. So if you feel you have done so many wicked things you will go to Hell then you have the power to change or not. And if you don't believe then hell is not an option anyway, am I correct? Why is it your goal to change my faith? What is it to you really?

Seriously you act like I was your worst enemy. I just don't get why you guys feel the need to get so personal. By the way, I don't have "balls" I am a woman. [/i]

[Rip Rokken]

Wish I could say that Hitch mopped the floor with Craig during their next debate, but I was pretty disappointed - I figure Hitch was either hungover or had too many scotches at lunch (I believe he did mention being in the bar during lunch), because Craig was extremely deflective and kept Hitch on the offense, and Hitchens just let him do it for some reason.

What would be the point of that, Ripperstein? Just accept the fact that Craig got the better of him that time, if it was so painfully obvious. To find comfort in the notion that your go-to man was drunk and that was why he didn't win the debate...come on, isn't that dumb?

I'm saying that Hitch is normally much sharper than he showed in this debate. I try to be as objective as possible, and though it's been a few weeks since I watched it, I remember being disappointed. But this was also the first debate I've watched featuring Craig, and after watching several since, I've gotten accustomed to his style and see more clearly what is is that he does. William Lane Craig has somehow earned this reputation as the Christian debater who no atheist has been able to beat, and even Sam Harris jokingly described him as the one debater who can put the "fear of God" into his fellow Atheists. BTW, I felt Harris clearly came out on top in their debate because he made clear, common sense points that anyone with an open mind could relate to -- something that Craig never appears to do.

What does it mean to "win" a debate? Craig is a professional debater, with a tremendous amount of experience, but I personally haven't seen him win a single convincing argument on any topic by the substance or merits of his arguments. He talks so far above everyone's head that I doubt the majority of his listeners can even relate to him. Case in point from the Q&A session from the Craig/Harris debate -- watch his exchange with this girl from 6:50 on, especially noting the expression on her face during his answer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa2fHkpOfoA

How many average people do you think can relate to or even comprehend the guy's points? Truth is, people like Craig depend on people trusting in their scholarly-ness to register "wins", for the same reason so many church-goers just leave all the "difficult" arguments up to their pastor. It's the reason the clergy-laity system developed and works so well to this day -- because the majority of people in the pews are too intellectually lazy to really dig in and do their own research, or parse the points in an argument to judge it by its merits. They rest behind the assumption that the pastor/preacher/priest has already done all this stuff, so they'll just trust them. "Whatever he says, sounds like he knows what he's talking about". I have yet to hear Craig easily and simply answer one common-sense argument. He just ducks and evades, often by saying it's not the topic of the discussion. Case in point with Craig vs. Ehrman... Ehrman asks Craig if he believes the Gospels contain textual errors, and if so, to point out three examples. In his response, Craig says it's not covered in the topic of that night's debate, but that maybe it's something that can be explored during the Q&A session. Fair enough... But later when an audience member does ask him the same question, he evades the answer again by claiming Ehrman was using a debater's trick by changing the topic and that he refuses to fall for it. The topic was whether there was historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus -- how was the accuracy of the original texts that Craig based his argument on not relevant to the topic?

I'm going to give the Craig/Hitchens debate a second watch and maybe I'll think differently.

[Greg]

My problem is not with someone having one thought or another on the subject. What I have a disagreement with is the lack of respect to others who hold a differing opinion. If your into tearing others down to build yourself or your thoughts up, that says little for your own personality. The internet is a fine thing, but I find people hide behind a computer and say things they would never say to people to their face. It gives them a cowards way of treating others badly.

You don't have to be nasty to give your point of view. But if you do, your true nature shows through.

It's pretty hard to respect someone who is a member of a religion that dictates that I am going to burn in hell forever for simply not being a member of that religion. As you're a Christian you presumably subscribe to that view. You think I'm going to burn in hell and you ask me to respect you?

Here's the kicker to that line of thinking. You're offended by the thoughts of Christians who believe that those who do not follow Christ will burn in Hell. Yet, if you believe that it's all hogwash, then why would you be offended by something that in your mind does not exist?

[Rip Rokken]

My problem is not with someone having one thought or another on the subject. What I have a disagreement with is the lack of respect to others who hold a differing opinion. If your into tearing others down to build yourself or your thoughts up, that says little for your own personality. The internet is a fine thing, but I find people hide behind a computer and say things they would never say to people to their face. It gives them a cowards way of treating others badly.

You don't have to be nasty to give your point of view. But if you do, your true nature shows through.

It's pretty hard to respect someone who is a member of a religion that dictates that I am going to burn in hell forever for simply not being a member of that religion. As you're a Christian you presumably subscribe to that view. You think I'm going to burn in hell and you ask me to respect you?

Here's the kicker to that line of thinking. You're offended by the thoughts of Christians who believe that those who do not follow Christ will burn in Hell. Yet, if you believe that it's all hogwash, then why would you be offended by something that in your mind does not exist?

The question was for Duncan but I'd like to answer too because it's along the lines of what I hear argued in these debates all the time -- that if God doesn't exist, then why do atheists care about what anyone says or does, because they have no firm basis for morality?

Your statement acknowledges that he's offended by the thoughts of Christians, but then indicates it's the object of the thought itself that offends him. I feel the question blurs the distinction between offense and fear. We don't fear anything we believe not to be true. Me, I have less fear of death now than I did when I was a practicing believer (some of which was an internal, nagging fear about spending eternity in what the Bible describes Heaven as being).

But an unbeliever is perfectly justified in finding someone else's thought that they will burn forever in Hell offensive, because it's a personal judgment (or at least, assumption) on their character, no matter which spirit it's delivered in. Me personally, I'm not offended because they are just words, and I consider them in the context of the person delivering them -- I know you'd never say it with judgment or ill intent, and it probably gives you a sense of sorrow to think it. But I'd fault nobody at all for being offended by the thought -- it is incredibly presumptive.

One quick follow up on the "sense of sorrow" part of my statement. I honestly believe that in consideration of the whole, not many Christians have much more than fleeting senses of anguish or sorrow when thinking about loved ones going to Hell, and that it's because on some subconscious level, Hell or the concept of eternal torture and punishment doesn't really register with them either. Even my own family (immediate or extended) hasn't tried a single time to approach me about my disbelief. I hear that they are disappointed, and one has offered to talk to me, but I've seen no real visible anguish over the thought of my eternal fate. I hypothesize that like most Christians, they believe in the "belief" of Hell, but the fact that there is no evidence of anguish or concern is an indication that it's not an objective reality to them, as say, me being tied to a stake doused with gasoline with kindling wood around me would be.

[Greg]

Seriously you act like I was your worst enemy. I just don't get why you guys feel the need to get so personal.

It's a double standard. I've seen people here preach, time and time again against discrimination according to skin color or sexual orientation, yet those very same people have no problem discriminating against those who have religious beliefs.

Yeah, ya know, I'll let it out there on the line for y'all. I don't care. Jesus Christ IS the Savior of the world. He IS the only way to Heaven. All other religions are false. There is a Heaven to gain and a Hell to shun. God is the creator of the universe. Christians must strive to be Christ-like, yet we ARE human. We ARE flawed, and we WILL make mistakes. Bad things happen to Christians. Prayers don't always get answered. We don't always know God's Will. We do rely on blind faith. It does make us look unintelligent. You know, I don't even care. I'm happy. I'm at peace with my faith. I struggle with it. I've questioned it before. But yet, something always leads me back to it. Why? Because I truly believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior. I truly believe there are miracles that happen everyday, yet most people are searching for the obvious (turning water into wine, waiting for donkeys to talk, etc...) and they ignore the everyday miracles that happen. I betcha if I watched my life, as being a flim strip of sorts, I bet I'll see situations where I could have died, been homeless, or some sort of disaster that gets diverted at the last fraction of a second for some reason. Some people call it chance? I call it someone watching over me who's in control of the situation. Bash me if you will. Call me a laughing stock. Question my faith. Do whatever you keep doing in this thread. But let me tell you, it's nothing I haven't heard before. It's nothing I don't expect, and it's nothing that will change my heart and my faith. I'm still a great guy. I'm still a fun guy! I'm a blessed guy. I have a house, a new car, and a good woman that I am about to propose to. None of my non-christian friends feel threatened around me. We all have mutual respect and we all still have fun when we're hanging out.

With all that said. I'll leave you guys to debate to your hearts' content. I hope someday you find the answers that truly give you peace, because something tells me that while people keep debating and getting heated about it....they're obviously not at peace.

[Michigan Girl]

It's a double standard. I've seen people here preach, time and time again against discrimination according to skin color or sexual orientation, yet those very same people have no problem discriminating against those who have religious beliefs.

Yeah, ya know, I'll let it out there on the line for y'all. I don't care. Jesus Christ IS the Savior of the world. He IS the only way to Heaven. All other religions are false. There is a Heaven to gain and a Hell to shun. God is the creator of the universe. Christians must strive to be Christ-like, yet we ARE human. We ARE flawed, and we WILL make mistakes. Bad things happen to Christians. Prayers don't always get answered. We don't always know God's Will. We do rely on blind faith. It does make us look unintelligent. You know, I don't even care. I'm happy. I'm at peace with my faith. I struggle with it. I've questioned it before. But yet, something always leads me back to it. Why? Because I truly believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior. I truly believe there are miracles that happen everyday, yet most people are searching for the obvious (turning water into wine, waiting for donkeys to talk, etc...) and they ignore the everyday miracles that happen. I betcha if I watched my life, as being a flim strip of sorts, I bet I'll see situations where I could have died, been homeless, or some sort of disaster that gets diverted at the last fraction of a second for some reason. Some people call it chance? I call it someone watching over me who's in control of the situation. Bash me if you will. Call me a laughing stock. Question my faith. Do whatever you keep doing in this thread. But let me tell you, it's nothing I haven't heard before. It's nothing I don't expect, and it's nothing that will change my heart and my faith. I'm still a great guy. I'm still a fun guy! I'm a blessed guy. I have a house, a new car, and a good woman that I am about to propose to. None of my non-christian friends feel threatened around me. We all have mutual respect and we all still have fun when we're hanging out.

With all that said. I'll leave you guys to debate to your hearts' content. I hope someday you find the answers that truly give you peace, because something tells me that while people keep debating and getting heated about it....they're obviously not at peace.

Another great post from Greg ...beautiful, heartfelt ...and it's definitely a heart thing!!
I'd like to add that there are folks/Christians, w/very little/nothing, who have lost
children, loved ones, experienced unfathomable tragedy, who still consider themselves
blessed. I suppose if I thought God were a genie in a bottle,
there to fulfill all of my desires ...I'd be disappointed, as well!!

I'm enjoying this thread ... enlightening

[artist4perry]

My problem is not with someone having one thought or another on the subject. What I have a disagreement with is the lack of respect to others who hold a differing opinion. If your into tearing others down to build yourself or your thoughts up, that says little for your own personality. The internet is a fine thing, but I find people hide behind a computer and say things they would never say to people to their face. It gives them a cowards way of treating others badly.

You don't have to be nasty to give your point of view. But if you do, your true nature shows through.

It's pretty hard to respect someone who is a member of a religion that dictates that I am going to burn in hell forever for simply not being a member of that religion. As you're a Christian you presumably subscribe to that view. You think I'm going to burn in hell and you ask me to respect you?

Here's the kicker to that line of thinking. You're offended by the thoughts of Christians who believe that those who do not follow Christ will burn in Hell. Yet, if you believe that it's all hogwash, then why would you be offended by something that in your mind does not exist?

The question was for Duncan but I'd like to answer too because it's along the lines of what I hear argued in these debates all the time -- that if God doesn't exist, then why do atheists care about what anyone says or does, because they have no firm basis for morality?

Your statement acknowledges that he's offended by the thoughts of Christians, but then indicates it's the object of the thought itself that offends him. I feel the question blurs the distinction between offense and fear. We don't fear anything we believe not to be true. Me, I have less fear of death now than I did when I was a practicing believer (some of which was an internal, nagging fear about spending eternity in what the Bible describes Heaven as being).

But an unbeliever is perfectly justified in finding someone else's thought that they will burn forever in Hell offensive, because it's a personal judgment (or at least, assumption) on their character, no matter which spirit it's delivered in. Me personally, I'm not offended because they are just words, and I consider them in the context of the person delivering them -- I know you'd never say it with judgment or ill intent, and it probably gives you a sense of sorrow to think it. But I'd fault nobody at all for being offended by the thought -- it is incredibly presumptive.

One quick follow up on the "sense of sorrow" part of my statement. I honestly believe that in consideration of the whole, not many Christians have much more than fleeting senses of anguish or sorrow when thinking about loved ones going to Hell, and that it's because on some subconscious level, Hell or the concept of eternal torture and punishment doesn't really register with them either. Even my own family (immediate or extended) hasn't tried a single time to approach me about my disbelief. I hear that they are disappointed, and one has offered to talk to me, but I've seen no real visible anguish over the thought of my eternal fate. I hypothesize that like most Christians, they believe in the "belief" of Hell, but the fact that there is no evidence of anguish or concern is an indication that it's not an objective reality to them, as say, me being tied to a stake doused with gasoline with kindling wood around me would be.

Nice points Rip. And I do agree, if hell is non existent in an atheists mind, then even my believing they are going there is not a threat. Truth is I am not at liberty to condemn anyone to hell. And to tell me what I believe without knowing me personally is truly a stretch! I even tried to joke around with Duncan in another thread and he got all pissy on me............quoting MG here.......... I put multiple winks and laugh emoticons to let him know I was kidding around but he still got mad. Duncan this is a discussion, and I don't see the need to tear each other apart or down for it. Maybe that is the way some of you roll but not me.

I think the world of Rip. I don't have to see eye to eye with him to love him as my friend. Arianddu is an atheist. I love her as a friend too. No discussion is worth a friendship. It is after all just an exchange of ideas.

[Greg]

The question was for Duncan but I'd like to answer too because it's along the lines of what I hear argued in these debates all the time -- that if God doesn't exist, then why do atheists care about what anyone says or does, because they have no firm basis for morality?

Your statement acknowledges that he's offended by the thoughts of Christians, but then indicates it's the object of the thought itself that offends him. I feel the question blurs the distinction between offense and fear. We don't fear anything we believe not to be true. Me, I have less fear of death now than I did when I was a practicing believer (some of which was an internal, nagging fear about spending eternity in what the Bible describes Heaven as being).

You continue to point out that life is better for you since you stopped believing, but obviously, it's something that you still talk about and research. Which makes me believe that there is unrest in your life. If you have no doubts or fears about leaving your faith behind, there would be no reason to do all of this extensive research to justify yourself. This is, at least, what I'm getting from your posts. Please know I'm not saying this necessarily so, I'm just point out what sounds to me to be true.

But an unbeliever is perfectly justified in finding someone else's thought that they will burn forever in Hell offensive, because it's a personal judgment (or at least, assumption) on their character, no matter which spirit it's delivered in. Me personally, I'm not offended because they are just words, and I consider them in the context of the person delivering them -- I know you'd never say it with judgment or ill intent, and it probably gives you a sense of sorrow to think it. But I'd fault nobody at all for being offended by the thought -- it is incredibly presumptive.

Just as it's incredibly presumptive to assume the Christians are weak minded people who are too lazy to study their faith so they just believe everything their pastor tells them. While this is true for a certain part of the Christian population, this is not true as whole.

One quick follow up on the "sense of sorrow" part of my statement. I honestly believe that in consideration of the whole, not many Christians have much more than fleeting senses of anguish or sorrow when thinking about loved ones going to Hell, and that it's because on some subconscious level, Hell or the concept of eternal torture and punishment doesn't really register with them either. Even my own family (immediate or extended) hasn't tried a single time to approach me about my disbelief. I hear that they are disappointed, and one has offered to talk to me, but I've seen no real visible anguish over the thought of my eternal fate. I hypothesize that like most Christians, they believe in the "belief" of Hell, but the fact that there is no evidence of anguish or concern is an indication that it's not an objective reality to them, as say, me being tied to a stake doused with gasoline with kindling wood around me would be.

I keep hear you going back and forth as if you're posting some internal battle that is going on in your head and translating it here. You're wanting your Christian friends and relatives to be more fearful of death and Hell in hopes of scaring you, but at the same time, you're saying that you're completely at peace with being an atheist. The problem lies within the fact that nonbelievers consistently say that it's fine for Christians to believe the way they want to believe as long as they don't force it down their throats or have to hear it. What in the world are you expecting from the Christian population Rip? You're telling us that you are just fine with how things are in your life, but I don't get that sense in your posts. I, myself, don't feel the need to disprove any other religion or prove to atheists or agnostics that the God of the bible exists. I do feel the burden of wanting to share God's love and Christ's teachings, but our faith is a very private and personal thing that we all must find within ourselves. I can't force it on anybody, and I won't.

[verslibre]

My problem is not with someone having one thought or another on the subject. What I have a disagreement with is the lack of respect to others who hold a differing opinion. If your into tearing others down to build yourself or your thoughts up, that says little for your own personality. The internet is a fine thing, but I find people hide behind a computer and say things they would never say to people to their face. It gives them a cowards way of treating others badly.

You don't have to be nasty to give your point of view. But if you do, your true nature shows through.

It's pretty hard to respect someone who is a member of a religion that dictates that I am going to burn in hell forever for simply not being a member of that religion. As you're a Christian you presumably subscribe to that view. You think I'm going to burn in hell and you ask me to respect you?

Here's the kicker to that line of thinking. You're offended by the thoughts of Christians who believe that those who do not follow Christ will burn in Hell. Yet, if you believe that it's all hogwash, then why would you be offended by something that in your mind does not exist?

Bingo.

[artist4perry]

He's French, he deserves derision. That's the mentalty, and it exists. Whether that is technically racist or not, I don't give a shit, it is wrong.

P.S. You never gave a shit before this thread. Funny, but true. And I noticed that guy gives (almost) as good as he gets.

Duncan I am not bothered by Parfait being French, I am bothered with the way Parfait treats others. End of story. Being from France is not a bad thing. I know there are good people in every country in the world. So your supposition is based on your assuming what I feel and think. Which is part of your problem.

[Gideon]

An atheist being offended that a Christian believes they're going to hell is mildly amusing.
It's like an atheist being offended that the leader of the Intergalactic Pink Unicorn brigade believes that the intergalactic pink unicorns would not enjoy their company.

Basically, if you don't subscribe to the Christian worldview, if you have no investment in the belief of heaven and hell, if you think that they're irrational, absurd, and deluded individuals.... why on earth would it bother you that you're not accepted among their number?

Here's the skinny: Christians believe those who don't accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior are going to rot in hell for eternity. If you publicly confess your atheism, what else are they supposed to think? That their God will somehow make an exception for you?

It's not a condemnation of your character, it's acknowledgment of something you routinely profess.

I'd tell you overly sensitive folks to move on, but the laughter is soothing.

[Rip Rokken]

We ARE flawed, and we WILL make mistakes. Bad things happen to Christians. Prayers don't always get answered. We don't always know God's Will. We do rely on blind faith. It does make us look unintelligent. You know, I don't even care. I'm happy. I'm at peace with my faith. I struggle with it. I've questioned it before. But yet, something always leads me back to it.

I mean this sincerely - I'm very happy for you. I'll never deny that a belief in God and the hope that goes along with it can make a very positive difference in the lives of some people.

I'm still a great guy. I'm still a fun guy! I'm a blessed guy. I have a house, a new car, and a good woman that I am about to propose to. None of my non-christian friends feel threatened around me. We all have mutual respect and we all still have fun when we're hanging out.

That's very cool. Congratulations and best of luck with your proposal.

[Rip Rokken]

Go look at that Obama thread. People calling each other "idiot" and "dickhead" and everything in-between. People who would normally be palsy-walsy when it comes to music. A real Jekyll-Hyde drama playing itself out over there.

Which message board are you talking about, cuz it surely ain't this one!

[Rip Rokken]

I'd like to add that there are folks/Christians, w/very little/nothing, who have lost
children, loved ones, experienced unfathomable tragedy, who still consider themselves
blessed. I suppose if I thought God were a genie in a bottle,
there to fulfill all of my desires ...I'd be disappointed, as well!!

I'm enjoying this thread ... enlightening

If a belief that someone greater is in control, has reasons for allowing tragedy that are beyond our human understanding, and has something even better in store gives people comfort in tough times, hey... whatever it takes. My best advice to Christians from my own experience is, go ahead and pray if you believe in it, but don't hesitate too long waiting for answers and "signs" -- get up and make things happen in your life. You are much more in control of your destiny than you think.

[Greg]

We ARE flawed, and we WILL make mistakes. Bad things happen to Christians. Prayers don't always get answered. We don't always know God's Will. We do rely on blind faith. It does make us look unintelligent. You know, I don't even care. I'm happy. I'm at peace with my faith. I struggle with it. I've questioned it before. But yet, something always leads me back to it.

I mean this sincerely - I'm very happy for you. I'll never deny that a belief in God and the hope that goes along with it can make a very positive difference in the lives of some people.

I'm still a great guy. I'm still a fun guy! I'm a blessed guy. I have a house, a new car, and a good woman that I am about to propose to. None of my non-christian friends feel threatened around me. We all have mutual respect and we all still have fun when we're hanging out.

That's very cool. Congratulations and best of luck with your proposal.

Thanks man! And understand that I'm not here to judge you or anybody else. I'm just here to berate Journey...LOL! (Just kidding)

[Rip Rokken]

You continue to point out that life is better for you since you stopped believing, but obviously, it's something that you still talk about and research. Which makes me believe that there is unrest in your life. If you have no doubts or fears about leaving your faith behind, there would be no reason to do all of this extensive research to justify yourself. This is, at least, what I'm getting from your posts. Please know I'm not saying this necessarily so, I'm just point out what sounds to me to be true.

A year or so ago I'd agree with you 100%. That was when I finally holed myself up for a weekend and faced where I stood with Christianity. Certainly there was fear, and the next few months were extremely tough. Yes, of course I wanted to find justification for my feelings, but I proceeded primarily on the grounds that I could (and truly hoped to be) wrong -- I wasn't looking for anyone to hold my hand and cater to my current state of mind. Giving up faith was nothing I wanted or planned to do, and I was actually shocked to find so many others who'd had nearly identical situations to mine.

But today all that is gone, and the fear is 100% gone -- a thing of the past. Sure, I have unrest in my life but I always have, and we all do. It's not related to this battle. I think S2M said something about how his mind is always going, constantly in thought. I can totally relate - that's me to a T. I'm a pretty deep-thinking guy and except for those times I manage to focus on a task at hand, I doubt there is any moment that goes by during my waking day that my mind isn't contemplating life's deep puzzles. Fleeting thoughts, concentrated ones -- it goes all the time. Not racing, or anything that makes me want to yell "MAKE THE VOICES STOOOOOOOP!!!!", lol. It's just a natural thing that I'm comfortable with.

For me, there are no destinations... it's all about the journey, so I really can't be satisfied intellectually or spiritually. I can be peaceful with my place at this time, but never content.

Anyway, although I remain open to arguments that could convince me to return to Christianity, practically speaking I know that most likely won't happen. Because for it to happen, it would take the one thing that ironically Christianity or religion in general lacks in my opinion -- real supernatural and divine intervention.

Just as it's incredibly presumptive to assume the Christians are weak minded people who are too lazy to study their faith so they just believe everything their pastor tells them. While this is true for a certain part of the Christian population, this is not true as whole.

That doesn't disagree with my statement. I didn't say anything about Christians (especially as a whole) being "weak-minded"... I did indicate that many are intellectually lazy when it comes to their own beliefs.

I keep hear you going back and forth as if you're posting some internal battle that is going on in your head and translating it here.

I do go back and forth, but only by expressing separate areas of my nature - not due to indecision. I respect my Christians friends and relate to them, but my current beliefs on theism are sound. If there is any tug-of-war going on with me it's only in trying to restrain my mouth in debate so hopefully I don't truly offend anyone, but I've mentioned that before.

You're wanting your Christian friends and relatives to be more fearful of death and Hell in hopes of scaring you, but at the same time, you're saying that you're completely at peace with being an atheist. The problem lies within the fact that nonbelievers consistently say that it's fine for Christians to believe the way they want to believe as long as they don't force it down their throats or have to hear it. What in the world are you expecting from the Christian population Rip? You're telling us that you are just fine with how things are in your life, but I don't get that sense in your posts. I, myself, don't feel the need to disprove any other religion or prove to atheists or agnostics that the God of the bible exists. I do feel the burden of wanting to share God's love and Christ's teachings, but our faith is a very private and personal thing that we all must find within ourselves. I can't force it on anybody, and I won't.

Actually, I'm only using my observations of my friends/family to make a point about the depth of belief -- trust me, I'm perfectly happy not having them bother me much about it. Otherwise, I'd probably catch hell for wanting to go to Houston in October to see Richard Dawkins award Chris Hitchens with an award. They should be happy that it's not another Journey concert -- prayers answered, I guess. But you know me -- I have to do it ILAA style, with the full VIP front row package.

Nobody should force their beliefs on anyone, I don't care what side of the fence they fall on. Militant atheists irritate me every bit as much as militant religious folk.

[Rip Rokken]

Thanks man! And understand that I'm not here to judge you or anybody else. I'm just here to berate Journey...LOL! (Just kidding)

Of course bro, and neither am I. I just love discussion, and hey - if all I did was chase people away from talking to me by pissing them off, I'd be shooting myself in the foot. Unless they just get stupid, but I can honestly say I haven't seen anything in this thread at all (related to the topic) that made me question anyone's intelligence. Except for the quote I posted about dinosaurs never really existing, but I just can't defend that guy without sacrificing credibility.