FEDERAL JUDGE knocks down PRO 8 in CA...

[BobbyinTN]

However, I can't imagine anyone wanting to define themselves as "normal". It's so fucking boring.

That's one of the dumbest things anyone could possibly say. I'm probably considered normal in some things and not so normal in others. Doesn't matter to me in the slightest if it's boring or not and if anyone thinks something is boring just because it's "normal" then they probably have some issues to deal with.

Not at all, Normal was never something anyone I've ever known wanted to achieve, they wanted to go beyond it, onto higher goals. However, if being "normal" is what makes someone happy, they should go for it. But as relationships go, love the is the common thread, everything else is just gravy.

[BobbyinTN]

I'm ok with equal rights being afforded to gays and non-gays, but they need to change the terminology of the two, considering one is pro-family and procreation, and the other isn't. I would be ok with "Natural marriage" (for heteros) and just "marriage" (for gays).

Okay, let me ask you this in all seriousness, do I have to accept something different than the word "marriage" just to make you happy?

[conversationpc]

However, I can't imagine anyone wanting to define themselves as "normal". It's so fucking boring.

That's one of the dumbest things anyone could possibly say. I'm probably considered normal in some things and not so normal in others. Doesn't matter to me in the slightest if it's boring or not and if anyone thinks something is boring just because it's "normal" then they probably have some issues to deal with.

Not at all, Normal was never something anyone I've ever known wanted to achieve, they wanted to go beyond it, onto higher goals. However, if being "normal" is what makes someone happy, they should go for it. But as relationships go, love the is the common thread, everything else is just gravy.

You're misconstruing what I actually said. I didn't say people should strive to be normal in every possible way. Just about everyone has the ability to excel and go beyond normal in some areas but everyone also has to have some kind of normalcy about them to remain sane.

[Saint John]

I'm ok with equal rights being afforded to gays and non-gays, but they need to change the terminology of the two, considering one is pro-family and procreation, and the other isn't. I would be ok with "Natural marriage" (for heteros) and just "marriage" (for gays).

Okay, let me ask you this in all seriousness, do I have to accept something different than the word "marriage" just to make you happy?

Without insult or insinuation in the title, I would like to see the two separated as they are different "types" of relationships and we label these things all the time. "Hetero" and "non-hetero" marriage would seem like a harmless, yet accurate, description. If you agree I'll have this Fed Ex'd to the Supreme Court and we can get this thing through and go back to arguing about Perry/Schon/Pineda/Cain.

[BobbyinTN]

I'm ok with equal rights being afforded to gays and non-gays, but they need to change the terminology of the two, considering one is pro-family and procreation, and the other isn't. I would be ok with "Natural marriage" (for heteros) and just "marriage" (for gays).

Okay, let me ask you this in all seriousness, do I have to accept something different than the word "marriage" just to make you happy?

Without insult or insinuation in the title, I would like to see the two separated as they are different "types" of relationships and we label these things all the time. "Hetero" and "non-hetero" marriage would seem like a harmless, yet accurate, description. If you agree I'll have this Fed Ex'd to the Supreme Court and we can get this thing through and go back to arguing about Perry/Schon/Pineda/Cain.

LOL! Honestly, I just don't see the need to separate us at all. We should all be grateful to live in this country where freedom means something different to every citizen and that freedom should not be voted on or impeded. If you separate us with the word, what else would follow?

[BobbyinTN]

However, I can't imagine anyone wanting to define themselves as "normal". It's so fucking boring.

That's one of the dumbest things anyone could possibly say. I'm probably considered normal in some things and not so normal in others. Doesn't matter to me in the slightest if it's boring or not and if anyone thinks something is boring just because it's "normal" then they probably have some issues to deal with.

Not at all, Normal was never something anyone I've ever known wanted to achieve, they wanted to go beyond it, onto higher goals. However, if being "normal" is what makes someone happy, they should go for it. But as relationships go, love the is the common thread, everything else is just gravy.

You're misconstruing what I actually said. I didn't say people should strive to be normal in every possible way. Just about everyone has the ability to excel and go beyond normal in some areas but everyone also has to have some kind of normalcy about them to remain sane.

And too, maybe for some just the opposite applies, normalcy would surely be the way to end sanity.

[Saint John]

I'm ok with equal rights being afforded to gays and non-gays, but they need to change the terminology of the two, considering one is pro-family and procreation, and the other isn't. I would be ok with "Natural marriage" (for heteros) and just "marriage" (for gays).

Okay, let me ask you this in all seriousness, do I have to accept something different than the word "marriage" just to make you happy?

Without insult or insinuation in the title, I would like to see the two separated as they are different "types" of relationships and we label these things all the time. "Hetero" and "non-hetero" marriage would seem like a harmless, yet accurate, description. If you agree I'll have this Fed Ex'd to the Supreme Court and we can get this thing through and go back to arguing about Perry/Schon/Pineda/Cain.

LOL! Honestly, I just don't see the need to separate us at all. We should all be grateful to live in this country where freedom means something different to every citizen and that freedom should not be voted on or impeded. If you separate us with the word, what else would follow?

I get what you're saying, but as citizens we always classify ourselves ... blacks use the stupid fucking term "African-American," latinos use the term "hispanic," Asians use "Asian-American, and whites use ... "white." We're all Americans, but we're also classified. Same thing here.

[BobbyinTN]

I'm ok with equal rights being afforded to gays and non-gays, but they need to change the terminology of the two, considering one is pro-family and procreation, and the other isn't. I would be ok with "Natural marriage" (for heteros) and just "marriage" (for gays).

Okay, let me ask you this in all seriousness, do I have to accept something different than the word "marriage" just to make you happy?

Without insult or insinuation in the title, I would like to see the two separated as they are different "types" of relationships and we label these things all the time. "Hetero" and "non-hetero" marriage would seem like a harmless, yet accurate, description. If you agree I'll have this Fed Ex'd to the Supreme Court and we can get this thing through and go back to arguing about Perry/Schon/Pineda/Cain.

LOL! Honestly, I just don't see the need to separate us at all. We should all be grateful to live in this country where freedom means something different to every citizen and that freedom should not be voted on or impeded. If you separate us with the word, what else would follow?

I get what you're saying, but as citizens we always classify ourselves ... blacks use the stupid fucking term "African-American," latinos use the term "hispanic," Asians use "Asian-American, and whites use ... "white." We're all Americans, but we're also classified. Same thing here.

But being Black, Latino, Italian, etc., they can still get married. We're probably have to agree to disagree about this. I can't change your mind and you can't change mine. Separate but equal doesn't work, we learned that in the 60's and separating us even further only leads to discord and the "us and them" mentality.

[Michigan Girl]

I think the ones that "choose" to play are just testing the waters baby, they are either bi-sexual or on the train to gay town. But see my reply to StevePerryHair. I kinda agree with fluid sexuality, but I'm 44 years old and have never met a person who "chose" to be gay.

I saw that and I agree w/you, 50% fluid is a tad high!! I've also never personally met a person who chose to be gay ...but I know
that fluid sexuality exists and ran pretty rampant amongst teenagers for quite some time!! That Kinsey scale is interesting, I didn't realize
there were so many choices!! There was never a doubt in my mind, concerning my sexuality, but this chart confuses me ...I'm a ZERO
and I'm thinking of becoming an X so I won't be a zero!!

[StevePerryHair]

YOU CHOSE TO PLAY a VICTIM... you werent born into it... there is a HUGE difference... its not a race... its a LABEL... and the left has been working on this argument for at leats 40 years...

Are you saying he chose to be gay?

Ok, this tangent of the discussion should be good for about 20 more pages.

:lol: venture to say , not all, but probably half of all homosexuals more or less choose it as lifestyle. Just the same way some real homos like Parfait, choose to live as heterosexuals Carry on !

Exactly when did you choose to be heterosexual?

No, Bobby ...I understand what he is saying here.
Not all bisexual/gay people were born that way, they chose that lifestyle, for now, because it's viewed as
cool, by some ...Do you think Lindsey Lohan is really gay/bisexual?!? I don't, I think she views her "gaydom" as an
attention grabber ...and that Ronson girl was used!! Parfait isn't gay ...he's black, for now, because that's viewed as cool too!!

I think the ones that "choose" to play are just testing the waters baby, they are either bi-sexual or on the train to gay town. But see my reply to StevePerryHair. I kinda agree with fluid sexuality, but I'm 44 years old and have never met a person who "chose" to be gay.

I still think I just can't agree with you. There are some people, women especially, who have been sexually abused or victims of incest, who end up with issues with men. And psychologically I think it affects them. I just think there are so many different things going on sexually in the world, that there are many different reasons we may not even know yet. But I do honestly think a portion of people are born that way. I know my uncle was. He's a year older. Same family, same schools, friends in common, same neighborhood, and there is nothing anyone could tell me ever that he chose it. It chose him and he's struggled most of his life, though he is happy with a life partner and has been for several years. So I know where you're coming from. But I just think throughout history there are always people in society who just want to be different and they want to be free to do anything and everything. Almost as an FU to society. I can see a difference. Anyway, we'll have to disagree on that one. And you can call me Lynn

[bluejeangirl76]

But I do honestly think a portion of people are born that way. I know my uncle was. He's a year older. Same family, same schools, friends in common, same neighborhood, and there is nothing anyone could tell me ever that he chose it. It chose him and he's struggled most of his life, though he is happy with a life partner and has been for several years.

Same with my sister. She definitely didn't just wake up one day and choose it. There are 7 of us and we all grew up the same.... same schools, family, everything. She dated a guy once, that I know of... and it never seemed right. I know she did that because she thought she was "supposed to". It was hard for her to come out, too. But I have no doubt that this is just who she is, and that she didn't "choose" to be gay.

And we all call her girlfriend our sister-in-law, laws be damned. She's family and I can't wait for the day they can have it legally.

[StevePerryHair]

But I do honestly think a portion of people are born that way. I know my uncle was. He's a year older. Same family, same schools, friends in common, same neighborhood, and there is nothing anyone could tell me ever that he chose it. It chose him and he's struggled most of his life, though he is happy with a life partner and has been for several years.

Same with my sister. She definitely didn't just wake up one day and choose it. There are 7 of us and we all grew up the same.... same schools, family, everything. She dated a guy once, that I know of... and it never seemed right. I know she did that because she thought she was "supposed to". It was hard for her to come out, too. But I have no doubt that this is just who she is, and that she didn't "choose" to be gay.

And we all call her girlfriend our sister-in-law, laws be damned. She's family and I can't wait for the day they can have it legally.

Yeah, it is hard for a lot of people and I guess that's why the suicide rate is so high. I was only the second person my uncle told, and he was in tears when he told me, and I made sure he knew I loved him and it changed nothing. He still has a hard time at times though. I just love his partner though. I don't even call my uncle, uncle, because he's a year older! He was like my brother growing up! So I can't call his partner uncle But he's a great guy! One of the nicest sweetest people I've ever met. He's always happy and positive and would do anything for anyone. I love them both. And no way either of them chose it. And his partner is from a family of southern baptists from Alabama of all places! And I can tell you that his whole extended family embraces them and loves them both. I can see it with his Facebook stuff how loved he is. You'd think he's have it really tough growing up under those circumstances, being gay, and maybe he did with his family at first, I really don't know. But I think it says a lot for his family and what great people they are. They had a commitment ceremony several years ago. We weren't invited though. That's how uncomfortable my uncle is with himself. I would have gone. But I am happy to do whatever makes life easier for him.

[Angel]

Exactly when did you choose to be heterosexual?

As soon as I was educated with the choice of a hairy cock in my ass/mouth or my rocket in the tampon socket.

So, it was a choice for you and not an attraction? LOL And stop flirting with me, it'll get you somewhere.

[StevePerryHair]

Interesting conversation with my daughter today too. So I know times are changing. And the youth are changing. My daughter is starting high school this year, so she is in band camp this week. She told me today that a tuba player is openly gay and he's dating the only guy on their "danceline" in the band. She said everyone knows and no one cares. My son who will be a junior there this year, said that there are openly gay teens all over school.

I only find it interesting because I know exactly what would have happened if there was ANY guy wanting to join our danceline that I was on in the marching band in high school! He never would have been allowed to try out. And I am quite sure that no guy would have tried even if he could, for fear of being ridiculed and totured by other students. The same goes for those who maybe were dating people of the same sex. No one talked about it, showed any signs of it in school. I can only imagine what would have happened in my little high school back in the 80's if they had. I noticed there are many public high schools here who have a boy or 2 most likely gay on their danclines too.

So like it or not people, times ARE changing. And I really think with our youth. I think our kids are way more tolerant than we ever were with a lot of things, not just homosexuality. Each generation is bringing more and more tolerance. Im sure some of you will see it as a horrible thing, but I just don't. My husband, a cop, handled a suicide of a young gay teen about 5 years ago. His parents were strict christian and trying to "convert" him straight again. He went to our hospital in town, walked to the top floor of an indoor balcony, and jumped. Its pretty sad that he felt that much pressure that he didn't feel life was worth living. My husband had dealt with the parents before that a couple times, when he tried to run away. They just would not accept him. I don't know. I think a lot of people can never understand until someone they love comes to you and says they are gay. How it must hurt when they are rejected. Knowing how hard it is to even tell anyone and then they get the nerve, only to be rejected. Its just sad.

[bluejeangirl76]

Yeah, it is hard for a lot of people and I guess that's why the suicide rate is so high.

my ex had a cousin who killed himself and they were all pretty sure that was the reason. and the worst part is, another family member that he grew up CLOSE to - they were like brothers - sounded a lot like.... well some of the people here.... with the verbal gay bashing and very vocal about hating gays. AND continues to do that to this day, even knowing that his best friend/brother killed himself over it. You know how I heard him talk about it once? He said that he "turned fruit and killed himself". I have never been so sickened by a comment in my life as I was that day. Apparently this guy saw the cousin with a man once or something.... and was not at all quiet about his disapproval.

I was only the second person my uncle told, and he was in tears when he told me, and I made sure he knew I loved him and it changed nothing. He still has a hard time at times though. I just love his partner though. I don't even call my uncle, uncle, because he's a year older! He was like my brother growing up!

Wow... same relation as I described above... nephew and uncle (the one who died)... they were the same age and grew up like brothers.

They had a commitment ceremony several years ago. We weren't invited though. That's how uncomfortable my uncle is with himself. I would have gone. But I am happy to do whatever makes life easier for him.

Wow. That's sad that you couldn't be there. But I kind of get it.... my one sister and I were the last people our older sister came out too. Our other siblings and everyone else knew 3-4 years before we did. I mean, my sis and I knew... we're not stupid. But we didn't ever mention it because we figured it was up to her if she wanted to talk. That really really upset me. We have different moms so the older ones grew up together and I guess she's always felt closer to them or something. She said something about fear of rejection... which I totally get. Except that she KNEW how I felt about the issue. I have always gone to Pride every year with friends and stuff like that. So it kind of hurt that she would think I would judge her. But... she handled it in her own way and her own time, so I can't fault her for that.

And she never did tell our dad either. I'm quite sure he knew anyway, and he even met her gf once before he passed.

[KenTheDude]

My daughter is starting high school this year, so she is in band camp this week. She told me today that a tuba player is openly gay and he's dating the only guy on their "danceline" in the band.

Tuba player...lol...is that what they call them these days?

[Behshad]

My daughter is starting high school this year, so she is in band camp this week. She told me today that a tuba player is openly gay and he's dating the only guy on their "danceline" in the band.

Tuba player...lol...is that what they call them these days?

[BobbyinTN]

There's only one reason gay teens kill themselves, the hatred of bigots and the intolerance and the lack of compassion we see every day in the news by organizations like NOM or Focus On the Family. Those are hate groups and they along with every asshole who demeans and belittles homosexuals are responsible for the suicide of those teens who thought they had no one and nowhere to turn.

[Rhiannon]

There's only one reason gay teens kill themselves, the hatred of bigots and the intolerance and the lack of compassion we see every day in the news by organizations like NOM or Focus On the Family. Those are hate groups and they along with every asshole who demeans and belittles homosexuals are responsible for the suicide of those teens who thought they had no one and nowhere to turn.

No. The hatred is responsible for the emotions, yes. But the only person responsible for a suicide is the individual his or her own self. That's why it's suicide and not murder. Otherwise I agree, more compassion and cultivating tolerance would go a long way to decrease such tragedies.

[Ehwmatt]

There's only one reason gay teens kill themselves, the hatred of bigots and the intolerance and the lack of compassion we see every day in the news by organizations like NOM or Focus On the Family. Those are hate groups and they along with every asshole who demeans and belittles homosexuals are responsible for the suicide of those teens who thought they had no one and nowhere to turn.

Honestly Bobby, the "screwed up" gays that I know (I know 2 that I consider messed up - into drugs, depressed, some even unsure of their own sexuality at various points) are screwed up not because of some kind of organized hatred from outside groups. It's the ones whose families don't stand by them, whether it be kicking them out of the house, disowning them, being incredibly mean and not understanding them at all etc etc.

[BobbyinTN]

There's only one reason gay teens kill themselves, the hatred of bigots and the intolerance and the lack of compassion we see every day in the news by organizations like NOM or Focus On the Family. Those are hate groups and they along with every asshole who demeans and belittles homosexuals are responsible for the suicide of those teens who thought they had no one and nowhere to turn.

No. The hatred is responsible for the emotions, yes. But the only person responsible for a suicide is the individual his or her own self. That's why it's suicide and not murder. Otherwise I agree, more compassion and cultivating tolerance would go a long way to decrease such tragedies.

I think we pretty much agree, BUT, ( I hate that word) in the absence of hatred from others, gay teens would not feel so disconnected and "wrong" for being who they are.

Maybe the Beatles were right, all we do need is love.

[BobbyinTN]

There's only one reason gay teens kill themselves, the hatred of bigots and the intolerance and the lack of compassion we see every day in the news by organizations like NOM or Focus On the Family. Those are hate groups and they along with every asshole who demeans and belittles homosexuals are responsible for the suicide of those teens who thought they had no one and nowhere to turn.

Honestly Bobby, the "screwed up" gays that I know (I know 2 that I consider messed up - into drugs, depressed, some even unsure of their own sexuality at various points) are screwed up not because of some kind of organized hatred from outside groups. It's the ones whose families don't stand by them, whether it be kicking them out of the house, disowning them, being incredibly mean and not understanding them at all etc etc.

Matt, I agree and I think that stems from "society" and the onus put on homosexuality by it.

Seeing NOM and FOF and other organized hate groups can not be easy for a teen just coming out and coming to the realization of who they are. God, being a teenager is hard enough.

Ain't it funny how those groups talk about "the family" and praise "the family" yet never give one flying fuck for the families of gay teens or even gay teens themselves. Why are so many "christian" groups so unchristian?

[Rhiannon]

I think we pretty much agree, BUT, ( I hate that word) if the absence of hatred from others, gay teens would not feel so disconnected and "wrong" for being who they are.

Maybe the Beatles were right, all we do need is love.

Yeah, that was pretty much my point. We do agree there.

The Beatles were right! People would be damned surprised to see where a little unconditional love would get them. =)

[BobbyinTN]

I think we pretty much agree, BUT, ( I hate that word) if the absence of hatred from others, gay teens would not feel so disconnected and "wrong" for being who they are.

Maybe the Beatles were right, all we do need is love.

Yeah, that was pretty much my point. We do agree there.

The Beatles were right! People would be damned surprised to see where a little unconditional love would get them. =)

A-Men! I try every day to love unconditionally.

[StevePerryHair]

There's only one reason gay teens kill themselves, the hatred of bigots and the intolerance and the lack of compassion we see every day in the news by organizations like NOM or Focus On the Family. Those are hate groups and they along with every asshole who demeans and belittles homosexuals are responsible for the suicide of those teens who thought they had no one and nowhere to turn.

Sometimes Bobby, it's FEAR of rejection by loved ones. They are so scared to tell anyone, they get depressed and it's the depression that causes the suicide I believe. No one in my family turned their backs on my uncle. But the fear and shame he lived with for a while not trusting us. He kept his secret a long time over fear. And it almost destroyed him. Sometimes it's a problem within themselves, expecting rejection.

[BobbyinTN]

There's only one reason gay teens kill themselves, the hatred of bigots and the intolerance and the lack of compassion we see every day in the news by organizations like NOM or Focus On the Family. Those are hate groups and they along with every asshole who demeans and belittles homosexuals are responsible for the suicide of those teens who thought they had no one and nowhere to turn.

Sometimes Bobby, it's FEAR of rejection by loved ones. They are so scared to tell anyone, they get depressed and it's the depression that causes the suicide I believe. No one in my family turned their backs on my uncle. But the fear and shame he lived with for a while not trusting us. He kept his secret a long time over fear. And it almost destroyed him. Sometimes it's a problem within themselves, expecting rejection.

I think we all know and have experienced the fact that our own internalized fear can sometimes be much worse than the true outcome of what we feared. Does that make sense? LOL

I have a warm, loving family who never batted an eye when I told them. That, my friends is unconditional love and something I'm very proud of. I think I have the best parents and siblings ever put on earth. I just wish everyone's parents were as loving as mine.

I think too often parents want kids to be what THEY want them to be, instead of letting the kids be who they are.

[DrFU]

Wow; this is outstanding. I especially like the last paragraph.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/gay- ... ?GT1=39002

[Michigan Girl]

Wow; this is outstanding. I especially like the last paragraph.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/gay- ... ?GT1=39002

Bowers words, in the end, were pretty good, too!!! Perhaps, one day, he'll communicate them to the right person!!

Great av, FU ...just beautiful!!

[BobbyinTN]

Wow; this is outstanding. I especially like the last paragraph.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/gay- ... ?GT1=39002

Awesome article! Thank you for that.

I especially love these words:

Intolerance is a disease, whether sexual, religious or racial, that we all must fight on a daily basis. The cure is for each of us to realize we’re all capable of being just as stupid as Brent Bowers.

[conversationpc]

Wow; this is outstanding. I especially like the last paragraph.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/gay- ... ?GT1=39002

Awesome article! Thank you for that.

I especially love these words:

Intolerance is a disease, whether sexual, religious or racial, that we all must fight on a daily basis. The cure is for each of us to realize we’re all capable of being just as stupid as Brent Bowers.

Everyone practices intolerance of some kind. EVERYONE.