MR

Lost to Jays 12-0 tonight....WTF?!?!?!?!

Hopefully not.

Ehwmatt wrote:Hopefully not.

That sound you just heard was Eric Wedge's suitcase being latched.....

Ehwmatt wrote:Hopefully not.

that's what i was going to say! }:C)

GO ANGELS!!!!! }=C))

StocktontoMalone wrote:Lost to Jays 12-0 tonight....WTF?!?!?!?!

who is that?

it's funny how you associate people with their avatars. now i picture you as a screaming baseball guy.

treetopovskaya wrote:

Ehwmatt wrote:Hopefully not.

that's what i was going to say! }:C)

GO ANGELS!!!!! }=C))

Halos can't beat the sox......MWAAAAAHAAAHAHAA!

StocktontoMalone wrote:

Ehwmatt wrote:Hopefully not.

That sound you just heard was Eric Wedge's suitcase being latched.....

Thank God for that!

Stockton- Thank you for Arroyo !!!!!!!!!! Check out his stats since the All Star break. He had St Louis golfing tonight. He has had 12 quality outings since July and should be 22-23 winsThe Reds have had 16 starters on the disabled list and little run productionfor our pitchers. Even God can't win w/o a run. The last 2weeks the kids are back and the run production maybe 50 runs in the last 5-6 games. Ask St Louis what just run over them.

StocktontoMalone wrote:

treetopovskaya wrote:

Ehwmatt wrote:Hopefully not.

that's what i was going to say! }:C)

GO ANGELS!!!!! }=C))

Halos can't beat the sox......MWAAAAAHAAAHAHAA!

sure they can! }:C))

Of course the sox will win another game. These games dont count . The Yankees series didnt count really, THey need to rest this week. get ready for next.

whole new season next week.

StocktontoMalone wrote:Lost to Jays 12-0 tonight....WTF?!?!?!?!

You do realize that the Red Sox played almost no regular players, right? The lineup that Toronto (and I might add that Roy Halladay was on the mound and pitched a complete game) defeated was:

Joey Gathright - RF
Josh Reddick - LF
Casey Kotchman - 1B
David Ortiz - DH
Rocco Baldelli - 3B
George Kottaras - C
Alex Gonzalez - SS
Brian Anderson - CF
Chris Woodward - 2B

I can assure you that when the playoffs start, 7 of those 9 guys won't get ANYWHERE near the field! That is basically a triple A lineup! These games don't matter one iota and the Red Sox are resting their players, and should be. I honestly don't like their chances against the Yankees this season. Their lineup is simply too dominant.

I watch every game, believe me....

This team doesn't impress me. They were lucky to even make the playoffs. Varitek's a shell of himself, Ortiz seems to be climbing out of his doldrums. Pedroia has returned to earth. VMart has been solid. Gonzo has been a welcome addition to the middle infield, and Jacoby Ellsworth(thanks Joe Morgan) has been a descent base thief(if his OBP would have risen I'm sure this kid could have swept 100 bases). Oh, and Kevin Useless isn't that anymore.

As far as the pitching? Beckett better right his ship or it is sayonnara Red Sox nation.....And looks like Upperdecki Irabu has another namesake: Okajima

6 HRs allowed the other night, 4 last night....what will the Yankees do in Coors Field East?

And with The Spaghetti armed twins behind the plate, Figgins's OBP, and the fact that we've punked the Halos the last 3 times in the playoffs - look for them to get Usain Bolt-itis in this series.....I'm calling it right now:

Angels win series 3-1

Enigma869 wrote: I honestly don't like their chances against the Yankees this season. Their lineup is simply too dominant.

While I'll be inclined to agree with you...

However, it's the loss of certain 'players' in the Sox lineup, which is just as much a factor. The loss of the 10th 'player' on the Red Sox linup, which is the baggie of pharmaceutical googies that Ortiz and Manny dug into with gusto....is long gone. That was the competitive advantage this team had....

That and once you remove the protection Manny gave Roid Papi....Roid Papi is reduced to that third string, dead pull slug he was prior to joining the Red Sox...

There's a reason why he's hovering around 230-240....and it's not because he was 'hurt'

strangegrey wrote:

Enigma869 wrote: I honestly don't like their chances against the Yankees this season. Their lineup is simply too dominant.

While I'll be inclined to agree with you...

However, it's the loss of certain 'players' in the Sox lineup, which is just as much a factor. The loss of the 10th 'player' on the Red Sox linup, which is the baggie of pharmaceutical googies that Ortiz and Manny dug into with gusto....is long gone. That was the competitive advantage this team had....

That and once you remove the protection Manny gave Roid Papi....Roid Papi is reduced to that third string, dead pull slug he was prior to joining the Red Sox...

There's a reason why he's hovering around 230-240....and it's not because he was 'hurt'

And that's the reason, other than it being a terribly boring sport, that I hate baseball

Ehwmatt wrote:And that's the reason, other than it being a terribly boring sport, that I hate baseball

Well, that was the reason I had little to no stomach for it between 2002-2008. It was really mind boggling to watch teams pitch around a former dead pull slug, with zero business being in the majors....then all of a sudden, he mysteriously comes out of his shell when he joins the Red Sox along with Manny....someone, who incidentally, served a 50 game suspension this year for steroids!


There's a handful of teams/players throughout that era that have risen to levels they shouldn't under any circumstance. I just hope the Red Sox had another set of rings minted for their drug suppliers.

And for those that will attack my NY address as me just exhibiting Red Sox hate....I feel the same way about Gay-Rod. I wish the yankees would shed him like a fucking dead fish. I still maintain the Yankees don't win a World Series with GayRod at Third base....at least fucking Meathead is gone from 1st base and they've put a guy who can finally succeed Tino and Donny with respect.....

Hey don't feel too bad. I'm a Dodger fan, and it feels like their magic number has been 1 for a month, and those bums in blue can't figure out how to win one freakin' game either. I'm getting sick of being pissed off, seeing that they lost....yet again... and to crappy teams!!!

With any luck, no.

F the red sox

strangegrey wrote:It was really mind boggling to watch teams pitch around a former dead pull slug, with zero business being in the majors....then all of a sudden, he mysteriously comes out of his shell when he joins the Red Sox along with Manny

I find myself in the VERY odd position of defending David Ortiz. A couple of points here. First and foremost, let me get it out of the way that I think more than 50% of baseball players are taking some form of "banned substance". They're not all steroids, but a banned substance, nonetheless. Also, you're conveniently forgetting that Yankees players have also tested positive for banned substances (including the best offensive player on their team)!

As for Ortiz not belonging in the majors...that's just a stupid thing to say. The reality is that Ortiz hit 18 HR's with about 50 RBI's in only 89 games (only half the season) in 2001. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to extrapolate the numbers out to a full season and figure out that it translates to about 35 HR's and 100 RBI's. I would say those are serious numbers, for a guy you claim didn't belong in the majors. The next year with the Twins (the year before he came to Boston), he hit 20 HR's with 75 RBI's, and still only played 125 games (meaning he didn't play almost 40), so in spite of your comments, he wasn't some washed up stiff who couldn't hit. The truth of the matter is that Minnesota couldn't and wasn't going to pay him, so they allowed him to walk. Again, the steroid or "banned substance" argument is a whole different subject that I wouldn't defend any player on, but the facts are the facts when it comes to the numbers. Also, for the record, according to MLB, Manny tested positive for a female fertility drug and Ortiz did not test positive for steroids, but rather a "banned substance". Again, I'm not defending either one of them (or any other player). Simply putting the facts out there!

Enigma869 wrote:I find myself in the VERY odd position of defending David Ortiz. A couple of points here. First and foremost, let me get it out of the way that I think more than 50% of baseball players are taking some form of "banned substance".

That's what you think, but where are the positive tests, ala Ortiz'?
When they're all proven frauds, too, we'll decry them as well.

Red13JoePa wrote:

Enigma869 wrote:I find myself in the VERY odd position of defending David Ortiz. A couple of points here. First and foremost, let me get it out of the way that I think more than 50% of baseball players are taking some form of "banned substance".

That's what you think, but where are the positive tests, ala Ortiz'?
When they're all proven frauds, too, we'll decry them as well.

Last time *I* checked OJ was acquitted.....but damn, he lost his civil case.

I think it is time to decry.....

Enigma869 wrote:
I find myself in the VERY odd position of defending David Ortiz. A couple of points here. First and foremost, let me get it out of the way that I think more than 50% of baseball players are taking some form of "banned substance". They're not all steroids, but a banned substance, nonetheless. Also, you're conveniently forgetting that Yankees players have also tested positive for banned substances (including the best offensive player on their team)!

I did NOT. Reread my post. I hold massive contempt for Arod and Giambi (and I'll go on record as saying I feel equally for Damon and Clemens) and have resented their wearing pinstripes significantly.

The big difference is that Giambi and Arod's use of roids has never resulted in their winning a ring. I'm going to reserve judgment on clemens' use contributing to the championships of 99 and 2000, because I don't think him using or not using was instrumental in those WS wins. The Mets (and to some extent, the braves) were going to lose those series for their own reasons....

I suggest you refer to Ortiz's numbers PRIOR to joining the red sox...which range from utility player numbers to average. Also, lets me be perfectly clear, Its more than likely that he was using prior to joining the red sox. He only improved when exposed to Manny's protection and likely access to better product thanks to Manny.

strangegrey wrote: I'm going to reserve judgment on clemens' use contributing to the championships of 99 and 2000, because I don't think him using or not using was instrumental in those WS wins.

Sorry dude...That's a RIDICULOUS argument! You can't pick and choose who was "instrumental" and who wasn't! Also, in the 1999 and 2000 postseason, only one single time did Clemens not pitch at least 7 innings! Also, in 3 out of his six appearances in those two championship seasons, he gave up ZERO runs and in another appearance, he only gave up one run! The bottom line is that there are many guys (on the Yankees, Red Sox, and EVERY other team in MLB) who were taking shit that they weren't supposed to be taking and just because you and I haven't heard about them testing positive for anything doesn't mean that any of those teams were clean. At this point I wouldn't be stunned to hear that Cal Ripken and Derek Jeter were taking something at some point!

strangegrey wrote:I suggest you refer to Ortiz's numbers PRIOR to joining the red sox...which range from utility player numbers to average.

If you read what I wrote, I cited the two years for Ortiz while he was playing in Minnesota and I'm fairly certain for a guy playing only half the season that his numbers weren't close to that of a "utility player". I don't know many utility players who can put up 35 HR and 100 RBI!

Enigma869 wrote:

strangegrey wrote: I'm going to reserve judgment on clemens' use contributing to the championships of 99 and 2000, because I don't think him using or not using was instrumental in those WS wins.

Sorry dude...That's a RIDICULOUS argument! You can't pick and choose who was "instrumental" and who wasn't! Also, in the 1999 and 2000 postseason, only one single time did Clemens not pitch at least 7 innings! Also, in 3 out of his six appearances in those two championship seasons, he gave up ZERO runs and in another appearance, he only gave up one run! The bottom line is that there are many guys (on the Yankees, Red Sox, and EVERY other team in MLB) who were taking shit that they weren't supposed to be taking and just because you and I haven't heard about them testing positive for anything doesn't mean that any of those teams were clean. At this point I wouldn't be stunned to hear that Cal Ripken and Derek Jeter were taking something at some point!

Well, we can agree to disagree. I'd be perfectly happy watching Baseball do a reset...and completely revert records/titles back to 1995. And that includes the WS titles the yankees have. Seriously! But barring that, I just don't think the contributions that Clemens made to the yankees in the post season made as much a difference as the contributions that Ortiz/Manny made in 2004.

Can I support such a stance to enact policy? I.e. Clemens was a pitcher who wasn't instrumental, so he didn't break the rules but Ortiz was constantly a factor, so therefore he's bad and evil?!?!?!

Absolutely not.


But think about it a little more carefully. In the Red Sox 2 WS titles, Ortiz and Manny were INSTRUMENTAL in each and every inning...if they weren't hitting, the oposing pitcher was at the very least setting up pitches, aproaching batters, etc...with the intent of managing Manny and Ortiz in the lineup. They brought a steroid enhanced factor to every pitch thrown in the PS during those years.

Clemens pitches, what....1 or 2 games a series? If you remove clemens from the lineup in 1999 and replace him with David Cone, was the result going to be any different? I don't think so.....

But regardless, I see your point in principal and agree with it. I just am thinking a little outside the box.

Enigma869 wrote:

strangegrey wrote:I suggest you refer to Ortiz's numbers PRIOR to joining the red sox...which range from utility player numbers to average.

If you read what I wrote, I cited the two years for Ortiz while he was playing in Minnesota and I'm fairly certain for a guy playing only half the season that his numbers weren't close to that of a "utility player". I don't know many utility players who can put up 35 HR and 100 RBI!

remove those two years (which were average numbers, at best) and he's a 1-tool utility player. Nothing more....

I'll also add that I believe Ortiz was juicing before he arrived to Boston....he wouldn't have been signed if he wasn't....

strangegrey wrote:remove those two years (which were average numbers, at best) and he's a 1-tool utility player. Nothing more....

I'll also add that I believe Ortiz was juicing before he arrived to Boston....he wouldn't have been signed if he wasn't....

Sorry Frank, but I'll say it again....A guy hitting 35 HR's and 100 RBI's isn't close to "average"! You can keep saying it is and I'll keep saying that it isn't. Also, you can't remove those years. The reality is that Ortiz was NEVER more than a part time player in Minnesota. In the 6 years he played in Minnesota, he only played over 100 games twice! His numbers in the years when he played half the season (because he played even less than that in most seasons) were very good, when factoring in that he had less than half the at-bats a full time player got! As for the "juicing" angle...I don't know what he was taking and neither do you. I do know that he did not test positive for steroids, because that was made public. He tested positive for a "banned substance" (whatever the fuck that means)!

As I said previously, it really doesn't matter who tested positive for what at this point. At this point in time, there is ZERO record of a single positive test of Barry Bonds or Sammy Sosa using steroids or any "banned substance", but I think you'd have a tough time finding 5 people who don't think they're both guilty of cheating, even though there isn't any proof of it! Hell, Sammy had fucking rubber balls fall out of his shattered bat on national TV and nobody said a word about this fucker corking his bat! Players in the 70's were hyped on on "greenies", and future generations will be hyped up on something. This will NEVER go away!

Ortiz went from a part time bench player putting up average numbers for several years to a league threat in less than 2 years. If you don't think something else is at play here, we're not going to find common ground to argue on.

Oh, and Ortiz DID test postive in 2003.

strangegrey wrote: Ortiz went from a part time bench player putting up average numbers for several years to a league threat in less than 2 years.

Frank...you really need to look at the numbers. Ortiz was indeed a part time "bench" player as you said, but his numbers were better than average as a part time player. The guy hit an average of 19 HR's with 68RBI's playing just half the season over the course of a couple of years in Minnesota. If you seriously think that a guy hitting almost 20 HR's in half a season is "average", then you're watching VERY different baseball than what I see! The point you're missing here is that over his first three seasons in Minnesota, he was a very young player, who didn't play at all and therefore had zero power numbers. He averaged about 35 games per season over his first three years in the big leagues. I'm not saying that whatever he did wasn't responsible for helping him. What I am saying is that his ascent in numbers isn't nearly as great as you're suggesting they were, given that he hit 19 HR's with 75 RBI's in only half a season in Minnesota. That tells me that the guy is a power hitter.

strangegrey wrote:Oh, and Ortiz DID test postive in 2003.

Not for steroids, he didn't. He tested positive for a "banned substance". I personally think that MLB should release EVERY name and exactly what they tested positive for, because a "banned substance" could be a whole lot of things. For the record, I'm not suggesting Ortiz didn't use steroids. I'm simply stating that the results that were released don't say what he tested positive for. I just think it's silly to take one guy or one team to task over this (which is why I'm not calling out A Fraud). This was and is a league wide issue and there are MANY players (including guys that you and I would never dream of showing up on one of these lists) who are guilty!

Sign of the coming Apocalypse:
Tim McCarver Sings Selections from The Great American Songbook was released this week. Seriously...What's wrong with this guy?
(Link has audioclips)

http://www.emusic.com/album/Tim-McCarve ... 28810.html