NY EMT's Refuse To Help Dying, Pregnant Woman

[Enigma869]

What fucking douchebags. These fuckers should be fired, IMMEDIATELY. Fuck the hearings...fuck "due process". There is simply ZERO explanation for something this ridiculous happening!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34516684/

[bluejeangirl76]

It's practically murder.

The two fire department employees, Jason Green, 32, of Long Island City and Melissa Jackson, 32, of Queens Village, were suspended without pay as the investigation continues into allegations they refused to help the woman because they were on break and wanted to eat breakfast.

Witnesses said the emergency workers were on break ordering breakfast at the Metro-tech Center Au Bon Pain restaurant where Rennix worked as a cashier. She collapsed in a woman's bathroom and several workers and customers asked the EMT workers for help. Instead, they said they walked out of the store telling them to call 9-1-1.

lousy sons-of-bitches bastards!

[Don]

So, are they saying the initial paramedics that responded are in trouble too for not having the proper equipment?

[Babyblue]

What assheoles

[T-Bone]

If I remember correctly, if you're trained, failure to administor first aid or CPR is considered a crime.

[portland]

Well I would never just leave someone...last summer we were at a friends camp...I was sitting on the beach..beer in hand and at the next camp someone went down...I dropped the beer....ran across the beach and did chest compressions while instructing one of his friends to to the breathing end....he lived and well......that is why I am a Nurse.

[RossValoryRocks]

If I remember correctly, if you're trained, failure to administor first aid or CPR is considered a crime.

In PA a nurse is required to render assistance at all time as are EMT's...off duty...if you are trained in CPR, there isn't a requirement for you to stop and help, but there should be.

And as for those lousy fucks...no wonder NYC has a bad rap, deserved or not, it only take a few bad apples to ruin a bunch...they should be tried, not just fired, but tried in a court of law, for manslaughter or even Homicide.

John, douche isn't even a strong enough word.

[Lula]

this is so troubling. i can't even fathom not helping someone in need and i'm not in the medical/emergency field. a young woman and her baby are gone, don't know if those two could have saved her, but they certainly could have tried. very disturbing

[Ehwmatt]

Hm, sounds bad on the surface... but one question:

Does New York law require providers to help and exempt healthcare providers from liability for rescue attempts gone awry so long as they aren't grossly negligent?

A lot of states do at this point, but if NY doesn't statutorily require them to help and exempt them from liability, they could have exposed themselves to civil liability if they helped. NY's one of the more liberal states, so I'd be willing to bet that law is on the books, but I'd like to know just to be sure.

[Everett]

Those guys should be fired on the spot.

[portland]

Who cares about liability??? I did not think about that for one second!! I saw someone drop to the ground and I went!!!

[Ehwmatt]

Who cares about liability??? I did not think about that for one second!! I saw someone drop to the ground and I went!!!

Well, your decision is very commendable and is in accord with the true calling of your profession. But, wouldn't it suck if it were the old days and you coulda gotten sued for a ton of money if the guy died? That's mostly old law now, I was just wondering what the state of the law was in NY.

[Don]

Are they saying these guys are dispatchers and not EMTs?

[portland]

Who cares about liability??? I did not think about that for one second!! I saw someone drop to the ground and I went!!!

Well, your decision is very commendable and is in accord with the true calling of your profession. But, wouldn't it suck if it were the old days and you coulda gotten sued for a ton of money if the guy died? That's mostly old law now, I was just wondering what the state of the law was in NY.

Well he lived...and was some happy to see me a couple of months later....but I get what you are saying...it just never crossed my mind at the time.

[WalkInMyShoes]

It appears that New York does have a Good Samaritan law - there are other references but this was easiest to read - although most medical professionals could not/would not ignore a person in distress. It kind of comes naturally once you've been through training and see these kind of things on a daily basis. Nowadays, there's more concern about communicable diseases than concern about whether you can be sued.


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_stat ... aritan_law

[Enigma869]

It appears that New York does have a Good Samaritan law - there are other references but this was easiest to read - although most medical professionals could not/would not ignore a person in distress. It kind of comes naturally once you've been through training and see these kind of things on a daily basis. Nowadays, there's more concern about communicable diseases than concern about whether you can be sued.


http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_stat ... aritan_law

The Good Samaritan law doesn't even come into play here. I understand Matt's question, but it simply doesn't apply to those who are first responders, and from everything I've heard, these two were EMT's on the FDNY. Liability simply isn't an issue. These two fucked up, in a HUGE way. As someone who worked as a cop in another life, I honestly can't even comprehend something like this ever happening. I never encountered an EMT/Paramedic who I worked along side with who wouldn't jump in to assist someone in a medical emergency.

[WalkInMyShoes]

The Good Samaritan law doesn't even come into play here. I understand Matt's question, but it simply doesn't apply to those who are first responders, and from everything I've heard, these two were EMT's on the FDNY. Liability simply isn't an issue. These two fucked up, in a HUGE way. As someone who worked as a cop in another life, I honestly can't even comprehend something like this ever happening. I never encountered an EMT/Paramedic who I worked along side with who wouldn't jump in to assist someone in a medical emergency.

I wasn't bringing this up about the "EMT-trained dispatchers for FDNY" because they should be held to a higher standard, but rather a general rule for civilian "rescuers" or anyone that tries to help in an emergency situation, like the comment about helping someone on the beach. It is hard to fathom the deplorable treatment of this young woman - either these 2 dispatchers have NO compassion or there's more to the story than has come out so far. I hope to God that this is an isolated event.

[StevePerryHair]

Does anyone remember a story from years back where someone was bleeding, maybe shot or something, outside a hospital, and the ER staff would not come out and get them and told the friends to call 911? Because of liability, the hospital would not allow them to transport. Shortly after, my hospital I worked for put out a memo saying that we too had a policy that said you can NOT tend to anyone outside of the hospital. That we were to call 911 just as happened in that case. Liability is a huge thing in these cases. Im not saying it's right, but you'd be surprised. Google it, this happens all over the country. A hospital staff can see someone dying outside their doors and they are to call 911.

[T-Bone]

That's when you just QUIT your job on the spot, and go help the dying or hurt individual into the building

[StevePerryHair]

That's when you just QUIT your job on the spot, and go help the dying or hurt individual into the building

yeah, quitting a job on the spot is realistic when you have a family and kids and jobs aren't easy to come by. I wouldn't judge anyone on their decisions. Hospitals have policies for reasons, and if you want your job, you have to follow them. Find a hospital WITHOUT this policy. Most have them I bet.

[T-Bone]

Fine... Then DON'T quit and just go help them anyway. See what kind of media shitstorm it creates if you get suspended or terminated for helping someone. I'd be willing to bet that a hospital won't want that kind of attention...

[StevePerryHair]

Fine... Then DON'T quit and just go help them anyway. See what kind of media shitstorm it creates if you get suspended or terminated for helping someone. I'd be willing to bet that a hospital won't want that kind of attention...

Then why would they have gone through the trouble of making sure we all knew that such a policy existed RIGHT when our local media was covering the national story and actually going to the local hospitals to ask their policies? They really didnt' care then what the media had to say. And they aren't the enemy. It's the sue happy nation we live in that you can thank.

It's for the safety of the staff too. They don't know what kind of situation they may be walking into in a parking lot. First responders are trained for that. Not hospital staff.

[WalkInMyShoes]

I think that any policy has to have provisions for individual situations where common sense should prevail. I think that this particular ER policy has to do with both making patients in the ER a priority and secondly, leaving the premises could turn what appears to be a controlled circumstance into something that becomes uncontrolled (like if the shooter of a person bleeding from GSW then shooting the doctor and nurse). Hospitals take transfer of care of patients very seriously, and have accepted those who walk through their doors as "their responsibility". You can't just leave the building, putting those in the ER at risk. Again, common sense - how long does it take to pull someone in 10 feet from the door? And I suppose there are liability issues with any injury that occurs to the ER employee. It's similar to the issue of people sitting on a plane overnight because an airport doesn't have proper security in the building. The policy was created to protect national security, but these "rules" are made for general consideration and there should be allowances for individual circumstances.

[SherriBerry]

We can all thank the lawyers for people dying due to "liability issues" - there are some great ones who care about justice, but too many chasing ambulances to generate lawsuits. I cannot believe a couple of EMTs on the NYFD would walk away like that though - regardless of the circumstances, the department just took a huge hit to its standing in the community. If it turns out to be policy and legal liability that lead to this, I hope that poor woman's death at least serves to change it - you shouldn't be able to sue someone who is just trying to help you.

[marco17]

We can all thank the lawyers for people dying due to "liability issues" - there are some great ones who care about justice, but too many chasing ambulances to generate lawsuits. I cannot believe a couple of EMTs on the NYFD would walk away like that though - regardless of the circumstances, the department just took a huge hit to its standing in the community. If it turns out to be policy and legal liability that lead to this, I hope that poor woman's death at least serves to change it - you shouldn't be able to sue someone who is just trying to help you.

As a volunteer firefighter and first responder, the actions of these two is inexcusable, regardless to the circumstances, or any liability. That said, Sherri is right... we can all thank some lawyers for this as many of them now make a lot of money suing all types of emergency services for everything they do. I recently took as a part of our ongoing training program, a legal aspects for 1st responders class and it is amazing what the police, EMS, and fire departments are getting sued for. Yes, there will always be those legit circumstances when there is obvious negligence and someone is hurt, say for the reckless driving of an emergency vehicle which results in an accident and someone hurt of killed, but like every other aspect of life these days... there is always someone willing to sue for anything, and always a lawyer willing to take their money. Again, my comment is for a greater overall understanding for those not in this line of work or volunteer activity. There is NO excuse for their lack of inaction, and they should be held accountable to the fullest extent.

[Angel]

Does anyone remember a story from years back where someone was bleeding, maybe shot or something, outside a hospital, and the ER staff would not come out and get them and told the friends to call 911? Because of liability, the hospital would not allow them to transport. Shortly after, my hospital I worked for put out a memo saying that we too had a policy that said you can NOT tend to anyone outside of the hospital. That we were to call 911 just as happened in that case. Liability is a huge thing in these cases. Im not saying it's right, but you'd be surprised. Google it, this happens all over the country. A hospital staff can see someone dying outside their doors and they are to call 911.

EMTALA laws require that a patient in need of medical attention gets attention if they are anywhere on hospital grounds-if they are off, it's another story but just outside the door is usually on the grounds.

If patients call us with a possible medical emergency, we have to ask them exactly where they are calling from. If it's something our hospital does not handle, we can tell them to go to the ER at the bigger hsopital across the street-unless they are on hospital grounds-if they are in the parking lot, we have to tell them to come in-or go to them whichever the case may be.

It is totally crazy that we have to worry about being sued for helping someone in any situation but that is reality.

[Ehwmatt]

I am sitting here laughing at the moral crusaders who would help "regardless of any liability." Yes, I'm sure you'd be jumping out of your skin to help if you knew you faced the prospect of a crippling six or seven figure judgment against you, your employer, and your family for just trying to help. Common sense folks, please.

[Playitloudforme]

If I remember correctly, if you're trained, failure to administor first aid or CPR is considered a crime.

It's my understanding that if you are trained and render aid GRATUITOUSLY (not paid), you are covered by the "Good Samaratian" Law, meaning, if you render aid, and it doesn't work, you can't be held liable. I've been trained in light urban search & rescue and CPR, so I know I'm covered if I try and screw up.

Here's definition (not Wikipedia):

Good Samaritans Law & Legal Definition

When any doctor of medicine or dentistry, nurse, member of any organized rescue squad, member of any police or fire department, member of any organized volunteer fire department, emergency medical technician, intern or resident practicing in a hospital with training programs approved by the American Medical Association, state trooper, medical aidman functioning as a part of the military assistance to safety and traffic program, chiropractor, or public education employee gratuitously and in good faith, renders first aid or emergency care at the scene of an accident, casualty, or disaster to a person injured therein, he or she shall not be liable for any civil damages as a result of his or her acts or omissions in rendering first aid or emergency care, nor shall he or she be liable for any civil damages as a result of any act or failure to act to provide or arrange for further medical treatment or care for the injured person.

For New York, the law was a mile long, so I figure it's about the same as above. Bottom line, they COULD HAVE rendered service, and would not have been liable for any outcome. I don't see anything however in this law that I'm reading about failure to bother trying. I'm sure it's in another law I've not found yet. "The fire department, however, issued a statement saying, "All of our members have taken an oath to assist others in need of emergency medical care." - - Oath means there's got to be a law behind it, right?

First responders know that the first hour is critical. Any amount of time wasted means the victim is that much more likely to die of their wounds/illness. They chose to ignore that... and that's criminal in my opinion. Yes, call 911 and get someone down there with the equipment, but render aid Immediately.

If I were on a jury, I'd find them guilty of manslaughter. They could not have screwed up more.

[Lula]

i don't think i'd find them guilty of manslaughter since we don't know if they could have saved her. i would suggest they find a new line of work tho. unconscionable behavior for an emt

[Enigma869]

Suggesting that these two NYC EMT's didn't respond due to liability issues is beyond ABSURD. I am supremely confident that NOWHERE in the NYC FD is there a policy of not rendering medical aid to someone who is in dire need of it. If such a policy existed, it would have been the first press release from the city of NY the second this story became known by the public. Hell, the Mayor of NYC is having press conferences talking about how unconscionable the behavior of two city employees was. If something in the city's policy stated that these EMT's acted accordingly, I'm reasonably confident that their boss wouldn't be on TV raking them over the coals!