MR

From unsigned acts' demo tapes. Here's the discussion:

http://heavyharmonies.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18470&st=0

S2M wrote:From unsigned acts' demo tapes. Here's the discussion:

http://heavyharmonies.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18470&st=0

This is a very disappointing read. Bongiovi just went down another rung or two, and the PBF debacle takes the cake.

without the original song, it's a mud-slinging contest. I'm not condoning BJ if they did it, but this should have been taken up in the courts at the time--plenty of others did. Complaining about it on a website 20 years after the fact is hard to take seriously.

This old news.

kgdjpubs wrote:without the original song, it's a mud-slinging contest. I'm not condoning BJ if they did it, but this should have been taken up in the courts at the time--plenty of others did. Complaining about it on a website 20 years after the fact is hard to take seriously.

Agreed.

portland wrote:

kgdjpubs wrote:without the original song, it's a mud-slinging contest. I'm not condoning BJ if they did it, but this should have been taken up in the courts at the time--plenty of others did. Complaining about it on a website 20 years after the fact is hard to take seriously.

Agreed.

The journey saga is old news too...however, the Jovi stuff is still ripe for discussion....Jovi fucked Bach out of money as well...is your head about to explode.

S2M wrote:

portland wrote:

kgdjpubs wrote:without the original song, it's a mud-slinging contest. I'm not condoning BJ if they did it, but this should have been taken up in the courts at the time--plenty of others did. Complaining about it on a website 20 years after the fact is hard to take seriously.

Agreed.

The journey saga is old news too...however, the Jovi stuff is still ripe for discussion....Jovi fucked Bach out of money as well...is your head about to explode.

I know all about the problems that Bach had with Bon Jovi.....25 or more years ago.

So if my head were going to explode it would have been years ago. Sorry to disappoint you,

portland wrote:

S2M wrote:

portland wrote:

kgdjpubs wrote:without the original song, it's a mud-slinging contest. I'm not condoning BJ if they did it, but this should have been taken up in the courts at the time--plenty of others did. Complaining about it on a website 20 years after the fact is hard to take seriously.

Agreed.

The journey saga is old news too...however, the Jovi stuff is still ripe for discussion....Jovi fucked Bach out of money as well...is your head about to explode.

I know all about the problems that Bach had with Bon Jovi.....25 or more years ago.

So if my head were going to explode it would have been years ago. Sorry to disappoint you,

What did I miss, what problems did Bach have with Bon Jovi?

portland wrote:

S2M wrote:

portland wrote:

kgdjpubs wrote:without the original song, it's a mud-slinging contest. I'm not condoning BJ if they did it, but this should have been taken up in the courts at the time--plenty of others did. Complaining about it on a website 20 years after the fact is hard to take seriously.

Agreed.

The journey saga is old news too...however, the Jovi stuff is still ripe for discussion....Jovi fucked Bach out of money as well...is your head about to explode.

I know all about the problems that Bach had with Bon Jovi.....25 or more years ago.

So if my head were going to explode it would have been years ago. Sorry to disappoint you,

Well...I wish you would stop frontin'...and just admit that when you aren't here peddling Jovi and skid you are wearing out your Michael Damian, Martika, and Kim Carnes 45s....

S2M wrote:

portland wrote:

S2M wrote:

portland wrote:

kgdjpubs wrote:without the original song, it's a mud-slinging contest. I'm not condoning BJ if they did it, but this should have been taken up in the courts at the time--plenty of others did. Complaining about it on a website 20 years after the fact is hard to take seriously.

Agreed.

The journey saga is old news too...however, the Jovi stuff is still ripe for discussion....Jovi fucked Bach out of money as well...is your head about to explode.

I know all about the problems that Bach had with Bon Jovi.....25 or more years ago.

So if my head were going to explode it would have been years ago. Sorry to disappoint you,

Well...I wish you would stop frontin'...and just admit that when you aren't here peddling Jovi and skid you are wearing out your Michael Damian, Martika, and Kim Carnes 45s....

Who is Micheal Damian??? OH yes Young and the Restless....did not know you watched the soaps...but I should have
figured.


Listen....I am not fronting anything...and you are just being an ass.


Cue Deano....I know he hates Bon Jovi....I am surprised he has not read me the Riot Act...know that song?

kgdjpubs wrote:without the original song, it's a mud-slinging contest. I'm not condoning BJ if they did it, but this should have been taken up in the courts at the time--plenty of others did. Complaining about it on a website 20 years after the fact is hard to take seriously.

I always wonder why people wait so long, and just recently read of someone suing an artist 30-40 years after the fact. Now who knows if they fought before and the latest attempt is just making news now, but it brings up that question.

Back to topic, that doesn't change the fact that Bon Jovi may very well be guilty of stealing great ideas, and it certainly explains how they could write so many great songs at one time, then fail to show any consistent ability to write fresh for the next two decades. I know a lot of artists do it.

I don't think there's anything wrong at all from taking inspiration from other songs to kickstart an idea, as long as you don't plagiarize their work. Back when I was playing, I used to write a lot of songs, and came up with a technique that really worked for me. I'd turn on the radio, but turn the volume down so low that whatever was playing wasn't identifiable, not even the melody. I could just barely make out a beat structure and maybe some sense of progression. Then I just concentrated on doing something else, and eventually really cool song ideas would pop into my mind that probably bore no similarities to whatever was playing on the radio.

There were also a few times I wrote something and later heard a song that was so incredibly close, I figured I must have heard it somewhere and it got into my subconscious. Really disappointing.

Rip Rokken wrote:

kgdjpubs wrote:without the original song, it's a mud-slinging contest. I'm not condoning BJ if they did it, but this should have been taken up in the courts at the time--plenty of others did. Complaining about it on a website 20 years after the fact is hard to take seriously.

I always wonder why people wait so long, and just recently read of someone suing an artist 30-40 years after the fact. Now who knows if they fought before and the latest attempt is just making news now, but it brings up that question.

Back to topic, that doesn't change the fact that Bon Jovi may very well be guilty of stealing great ideas, and it certainly explains how they could write so many great songs at one time, then fail to show any consistent ability to write fresh for the next two decades. I know a lot of artists do it.

I don't think there's anything wrong at all from taking inspiration from other songs to kickstart an idea, as long as you don't plagiarize their work. Back when I was playing, I used to write a lot of songs, and came up with a technique that really worked for me. I'd turn on the radio, but turn the volume down so low that whatever was playing wasn't identifiable, not even the melody. I could just barely make out a beat structure and maybe some sense of progression. Then I just concentrated on doing something else, and eventually really cool song ideas would pop into my mind that probably bore no similarities to whatever was playing on the radio.

There were also a few times I wrote something and later heard a song that was so incredibly close, I figured I must have heard it somewhere and it got into my subconscious. Really disappointing.

Such a common phenomenon for anyone who's ever tried to even pen a riff or simple chord progression, let alone a melody to go with it.

Ehwmatt wrote:

Rip Rokken wrote:There were also a few times I wrote something and later heard a song that was so incredibly close, I figured I must have heard it somewhere and it got into my subconscious. Really disappointing.

Such a common phenomenon for anyone who's ever tried to even pen a riff or simple chord progression, let alone a melody to go with it.

Oh, yeah... Now to some degree it's nearly impossible to be completely original, and sometimes the people who try fail miserably. Most songs depend on a well-established basic chord progression, and it's just about keeping them fresh if the song puts them out front. That's not even necessary if the underlying chords just support a melody carried by vocals, keys, etc. We all become dependent on formula, ritual, repetition, familiarity, etc. to some extent in entertainment, whether it's music, movies, etc. There are basic structures to stories, songs, etc. that we can enjoy forever if there is something fresh about them.

Melody, lyrics, and sound are where the uniqueness comes, as there are infinite combinations of each. Anytime someone comes up with a really cool standout guitar riff or a killer vocal melody, I'm amazed at the creativity it took to create it. The more unique it is, the greater the ability to tell when it's being ripped off.

Bon Jovi's fault is they rely way too much on familiarity, and not enough on real creativity. That new song sounds like a hundred other songs I've heard, and anyone could write something like that. What they do works the average listener, but not enough for anyone who expects a little more out of their music. Poison falls into the same category for me songwriting wise.

Rip Rokken wrote:

Ehwmatt wrote:

Rip Rokken wrote:There were also a few times I wrote something and later heard a song that was so incredibly close, I figured I must have heard it somewhere and it got into my subconscious. Really disappointing.

Such a common phenomenon for anyone who's ever tried to even pen a riff or simple chord progression, let alone a melody to go with it.

Oh, yeah... Now to some degree it's nearly impossible to be completely original, and sometimes the people who try fail miserably. Most songs depend on a well-established basic chord progression, and it's just about keeping them fresh if the song puts them out front. That's not even necessary if the underlying chords just support a melody carried by vocals, keys, etc. We all become dependent on formula, ritual, repetition, familiarity, etc. to some extent in entertainment, whether it's music, movies, etc. There are basic structures to stories, songs, etc. that we can enjoy forever if there is something fresh about them.

Melody, lyrics, and sound are where the uniqueness comes, as there are infinite combinations of each. Anytime someone comes up with a really cool standout guitar riff or a killer vocal melody, I'm amazed at the creativity it took to create it. The more unique it is, the greater the ability to tell when it's being ripped off.

Bon Jovi's fault is they rely way too much on familiarity, and not enough on real creativity. That new song sounds like a hundred other songs I've heard, and anyone could write something like that. What they do works the average listener, but not enough for anyone who expects a little more out of their music. Poison falls into the same category for me songwriting wise.

I wonder how often it happens that someone rips off a song they have never heard before by pure chance. I'm sure it's happened many times before.

I think a lot of bands get in that repetition where they go about recording the same style over and over without really moving forward. The quality may remain consistent, but you aren't seeing any progress in the sound either. I think Journey has gotten into that a bit also. Some bands have made a career on a specific style where a lot of the songs are interchangeable between albums.

Of course, the alternative is to continually change your sound either intentionally or by co-writing with different people all the time. One of my favorite artists rarely uses the same writing team for more than one album--and has written a few by himself without anybody else. Things never get stale, but you are never quite sure what to expect either. Ranking the albums tends to be more of a case of preferred style more than anything else, as he has done most genres out there at one time or another, while staying basically in "rock".

I'm not sure which option is better.

kgdjpubs wrote:I wonder how often it happens that someone rips off a song they have never heard before by pure chance. I'm sure it's happened many times before.

3 people accused Coldplay of stealing their melody for Viva La Vida: Satriani, Cat Stevens, and some obscure band. It's funny how 4 songs all sound so similar, probably by chance.

There's also "subconscious plagiarism," like in the case of My Sweet Lord by George Harrison.

conversationpc wrote:This old news.

Grave digging!!!

Hell, just listen to my song "Losing You"! I don't try to hide my influences. Who knows if the story is even real. If it is, it's seriously fucked up! While my song may resemble "Cold As Ice" in the intro, he didn't send me a demo tape that I ripped off! I just jammed on the song one day and came up with what I thought was a cool song. It came very quickly to me, and was never intended to rip them off.