MR

Professor Hawking's and American physicist Leonard Mlodinow's new book is out now, called: The Grand Design Here's a excerpt from it:

"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing," he writes. "Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist.

"It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going."

This is some interesting stuff. I recommend everyone to read up on M-Theory (it's not as much a theory as it is a way to produce one), as it's possible that it'll be the one theory to unify quantum theory with Einstein's theory of general relativity, which would be a big, if not the biggest, breakthrough in modern science.

"The fact that we human beings – who are ourselves mere collections of fundamental particles of nature – have been able to come this close to an understanding of the laws governing us and our universe is a great triumph."

Here's the link to the Guardian article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/sep/02/stephen-hawking-big-bang-creator

Guess that settles it!

Oh sure, now that God's already done all the work ...

"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing," he writes. "Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist.

"It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going."

I heard this the other day and I was amazed...Professor Hawking has a brilliant mind for sure, but his words/ideas are nothing but theory. When he's going to be able to prove what he says, I'll listen.
You'd think that scentists of all people would see the amazing patterns of the Universe which have the "genius" label on them...Why are they blind?
With all due respect, my personal belief is that nothing is spontaneous or random. The more I read and learn, the more I'm convinced that everything was created by someone who knew exactly what he was doing. Call him "God", "a higher intelligence", "Obi Wan Kenobi" but not "spontaneous creation".
The universe and life were both created under strict laws that keep everything together. I think that God is the scientist here and Humans are just humble apprentices. Some have big mouths, though. lol

So suppose that just because I'd be a world renowned scientist, I could write this: "The human DNA was a spontaneous creation based on pure randomness and luck, just as the Earth was luckily placed at the right distance from the Sun. There isn't a higher intelligence involved in the creation of anything, it's just gravity and lottery."

Oh yeah? And I know this is the truth because...?

Guess we were lucky when the monkeys decided (spontaneously, of course) that they don't want to be humans.

It is kinda sad that someone so smart can be so stupid.

Someone should roll that motherfucker off a cliff.

I saw this recently too. I'll never get the concept that everything we know came from absolutely nothing and became what it became without intelligent design. It takes doesn't take any more faith to believe that than it does to accept Hawking's theories.

Saint John wrote:Someone should roll that motherfucker off a cliff.

Jesus saves.

Look folks theres shit that none of us will ever be able to figure out for sure. Among them:

1. Whether God made the world or whether we are the result a gigantic bang and lots of luck
2. How the little "m" s get on m & m S
3. Whether Perry is ever comin back

No point in arguin

Happy to be alive, Happy to have such a wonderful planet to live on, Happy to believe what I want without fear of persicution. That sums it up for me.

Hawkings can believe whatever floats his boat, as long as he allows me the same rights.

Son of a Monkey's uncle. LOL!

Hugs Parfait! Hope your having a wonderful Sunday morning. Spent mine in church singing my heart out. Wonderful day. Saw an unusual parasitic growth on a leaf today, I was quite fascinated, looked at it for quite some time. It was little green balls on the main vein of the leaf. I will have to see what kind it is. I love nature!

All you religious zealots make me sick...you can't even keep your hallowed 'rules' straight...Having 'faith' ends with religion? Can't have faith in anything else? Faith is supposed to be a belief of believing in something when the lack of evidence exists for it....unless, of course, having faith runs counter to the same religious beliefs that enable you to subscribe to a faith-based existence in the first place....

Can't have 'faith' in Hawking, or his beliefs? Typical hypocritical religious dogma....pitiful.

*Laura wrote:I heard this the other day and I was amazed...Professor Hawking has a brilliant mind for sure, but his words/ideas are nothing but theory. When he's going to be able to prove what he says, I'll listen.

So, if I follow this correctly, you don't require any evidence or proof to follow your religion (faith by it's very definition means the absence of proof) but you DO require proof for anything else? That sounds a little hypocritical if you ask me.

Hawking's theories may not have definitve proof but they are deductive theories based on more quantifiable evidence than any religious person has ever been able to provide for me about the existence of God. I remain agnostic, waiting to be convinced in either direction.

Jesus, you people really go full throttle. Just need to clear up some things though.

1: Being a deist, even a theist, is fine. I'm not trying to persuade you people away from your faith.
2: There is a plethora of evidence backing this up, and please, this is in no way just Hawking's thoughts. This is not just some idea what popped into the dude's head while eating his Captain Crunch.
3: You guys keep mixing up what theory really means. A scientific theory is a deductive theory, meaning that it can be taken as a axiom, a fact. So a scientific theory isn't a idea, but more or less a hypothesis with empirical evidence to back it up. Take the theory of general relativity for example, which is far from a idea, but a indistinguishable scientific fact.
4: *Laura, you completely misunderstands the theory (see point 3) of evolution, which to this day has a massive amount of empirical evidence to back it up, in stark contrast to creationism for example, which is nothing more than pseudo fringe science. Go on a rant, but get your facts straight. It's not about chance and luck. Go ask any paleontologist or genetic engineer about the empirical evidence evolution has. Denying it is just ignorant.

Let's say you're religious, so obviously you don't agree with Hawkings, as what he says clearly contradicts whatever holy book you put your faith in - but give the man his well earned respects. He, as just about any other scientist, spends his/her life trying to find the answers for things that'll in some way or another impact and improve your life. Vaccines, satellites, genetically enhanced food, fusion/fission research - I mean, the list goes on and on and on and on and on. I understand how someone can be Christian, Jewish or whatever, I get the idea of it, but you people treat scientists as if they're pedophiles and child rapists (que catholic priests), when in fact society and humanity would be totally buttfucked without them. Even worse; religious groups works against scientists in stem cell research for example, which is highly likely to one day, which will come a lot later thanks to you guys, cure cancer, MS and Parkinson's to just name a few.

Believe whatever makes you feel good - but I don't get you people. You're like a walking contradiction.

Here's a Christopher Hitchens quote to end it off, him being his brilliant and eloquent self:

A modern believer can say and even believe that his faith is quite compatible with science and medicine, but the awkward fact will always be that both things have a tendency to break religion's monopoly, and have often been fiercely resisted for that reason. What happens to the faith healer and the shaman when any poor citizen can see the full effect of drugs and surgeries, administered without ceremonies or mystifications? Roughly the same thing as happens to the rainmaker when the climatologist turns up, or to the diviner from the heavens when schoolteachers get hold of elementary telescopes

This makes me smile...I didn't post here to preach my faith or to get into a religious debate of some sorts. I was simply expressing a personal belief ( that can be shared or NOT) and a personal disappointment towards this "deductive theory", "scientific evidence" or whatever you wanna call it...Sorry, but no amount of deductions can convince me that everyting was created from nothing or that everything is the product of some spontaneous randomness...Yeah, the entire Universe just hit a mathematically perfect jackpot.
I wasn't even talking about God in a biblical sense. I mentioned a superior intelligence capable of creating everything.
To me, there is way too much perfection in the way the Universe works ( or our bodies and brains for that matter) to be just a matter of luck or the product of "nothingness".
Scientists do nothing but discover things that were already created...as without them nothing would have worked the way it does in the first place.

I respect scientists' intelligence and I'm not putting down their work and efforts - I'm just amazed that they don't recognize the intelligence behind the scenes.
It's like looking at a Corvette's perfect engine and saying "nah, this wasn't built by someone...this must be either the evolved version of an amoeba or it just created itself from nothing by luck".

S2M wrote:All you religious zealots make me sick...you can't even keep your hallowed 'rules' straight...Having 'faith' ends with religion? Can't have faith in anything else? Faith is supposed to be a belief of believing in something when the lack of evidence exists for it....unless, of course, having faith runs counter to the same religious beliefs that enable you to subscribe to a faith-based existence in the first place....

Can't have 'faith' in Hawking, or his beliefs? Typical hypocritical religious dogma....pitiful.

I have faith that you will always go against the grain ...and that's ok!!

Michigan Girl wrote:

S2M wrote:All you religious zealots make me sick...you can't even keep your hallowed 'rules' straight...Having 'faith' ends with religion? Can't have faith in anything else? Faith is supposed to be a belief of believing in something when the lack of evidence exists for it....unless, of course, having faith runs counter to the same religious beliefs that enable you to subscribe to a faith-based existence in the first place....

Can't have 'faith' in Hawking, or his beliefs? Typical hypocritical religious dogma....pitiful.

I have faith that you will always go against the grain ...and that's ok!!

MG that is so true

Babyblue wrote:

Michigan Girl wrote:

S2M wrote:All you religious zealots make me sick...you can't even keep your hallowed 'rules' straight...Having 'faith' ends with religion? Can't have faith in anything else? Faith is supposed to be a belief of believing in something when the lack of evidence exists for it....unless, of course, having faith runs counter to the same religious beliefs that enable you to subscribe to a faith-based existence in the first place....

Can't have 'faith' in Hawking, or his beliefs? Typical hypocritical religious dogma....pitiful.

I have faith that you will always go against the grain ...and that's ok!!

MG that is so true

Which is cool, I feel believe what you wish, just allow me the same right. Personally I just love ya to death S2M. Hopefully the zealot thing does not pertain to me, because I was kidding around with Parfait. He knows it. You can have faith in whatever floats your boat to me. I just like you as you are. Same for Parfait.

artist4perry wrote:Happy to be alive, Happy to have such a wonderful planet to live on, Happy to believe what I want without fear of persicution. That sums it up for me.

Hawkings can believe whatever floats his boat, as long as he allows me the same rights.

Son of a Monkey's uncle. LOL!

Hugs Parfait! Hope your having a wonderful Sunday morning. Spent mine in church singing my heart out. Wonderful day. Saw an unusual parasitic growth on a leaf today, I was quite fascinated, looked at it for quite some time. It was little green balls on the main vein of the leaf. I will have to see what kind it is. I love nature!

I agree with you Ginger.

Until I have one...just ONE reason to believe in a Wizard we call God, I remain on the side to where anything that has ever been explained in everyday life has been proven in a Scientific setting of living and any synonym in its form.

S2M wrote:All you religious zealots make me sick...you can't even keep your hallowed 'rules' straight...Having 'faith' ends with religion? Can't have faith in anything else? Faith is supposed to be a belief of believing in something when the lack of evidence exists for it....unless, of course, having faith runs counter to the same religious beliefs that enable you to subscribe to a faith-based existence in the first place....

Can't have 'faith' in Hawking, or his beliefs? Typical hypocritical religious dogma....pitiful.

I have found that it is RELIGION that is the sin of this world. Just look at what it causes, including the wars that has come up so frequently in the form of the ever so thousands of religious beliefs there is out there. The only thing religion brings is argue, debate, deception, and judging to one another, causing nothing but disagreements and separation of the human base. Trouble if you ask me.

When it comes down to it, I will always believe that since man has to be finger-fed everything of the unexplained and since humanity and its form just needs to have an answer for everything, we... man... created an invisible man in the sky with bunches of rules to set in the fear of death in a way of comfort on how this world does indeed exist.

parfait wrote:3: You guys keep mixing up what theory really means. A scientific theory is a deductive theory, meaning that it can be taken as a axiom, a fact. So a scientific theory isn't a idea, but more or less a hypothesis with empirical evidence to back it up. Take the theory of general relativity for example, which is far from a idea, but a indistinguishable scientific fact.

This is true, but only to a point. There is a HUGE difference between String theory, M theory, and the Relativity. There are repeatable physical experiments that can be done to prove Relativity. The very nature of String and M theory is not provable...these are 'invented' to solve various inconsistencies between Relativity and Quantum Mechanics...but there is absolutely no repeatable experiments to prove them.

String and M theory are in the realm of theoretical physics...and will stay there until they can be proven.

Here's a Christopher Hitchens quote to end it off, him being his brilliant and eloquent self:

A modern believer can say and even believe that his faith is quite compatible with science and medicine, but the awkward fact will always be that both things have a tendency to break religion's monopoly, and have often been fiercely resisted for that reason. What happens to the faith healer and the shaman when any poor citizen can see the full effect of drugs and surgeries, administered without ceremonies or mystifications? Roughly the same thing as happens to the rainmaker when the climatologist turns up, or to the diviner from the heavens when schoolteachers get hold of elementary telescopes

[/quote]

And, what will happen to M theory when X theory shows up and seems to be a better way of explaining the universe? it's really not as different and some tend to believe.

This sign should be offensive to Christians. Christians don't 'know'. They have faith...and that is what should be emphasized. To 'know' implies that you have proof...and if you have proof, there is no faith.

YoungJRNY wrote:

Until I have one...just ONE reason to believe in a Wizard we call God, I remain on the side to where anything that has ever been explained in everyday life has been proven in a Scientific setting of living and any synonym in its form.

MartyMoffatt wrote:

*Laura wrote:I heard this the other day and I was amazed...Professor Hawking has a brilliant mind for sure, but his words/ideas are nothing but theory. When he's going to be able to prove what he says, I'll listen.

So, if I follow this correctly, you don't require any evidence or proof to follow your religion (faith by it's very definition means the absence of proof) but you DO require proof for anything else? That sounds a little hypocritical if you ask me.

Hawking's theories may not have definitve proof but they are deductive theories based on more quantifiable evidence than any religious person has ever been able to provide for me about the existence of God.

Exactly. I do believe...but I choose what I believe. I've never subscribed to the Adam and Eve stuff, and there has to be something else out there in the universe... But I still have faith. In what... Well, we all will only ever know in X amount of years from now

YoungJRNY wrote:I have found that it is RELIGION that is the sin of this world. Just look at what it causes, including the wars that has come up so frequently in the form of the ever so thousands of religious beliefs there is out there. The only thing religion brings is argue, debate, deception, and judging to one another, causing nothing but disagreements and separation of the human base. Trouble if you ask me.

When it comes down to it, I will always believe that since man has to be finger-fed everything of the unexplained and since humanity and its form just needs to have an answer for everything, we... man... created an invisible man in the sky with bunches of rules to set in the fear of death in a way of comfort on how this world does indeed exist.

It's Yahweh or the highway, dude!

Rip Rokken wrote:

YoungJRNY wrote:I have found that it is RELIGION that is the sin of this world. Just look at what it causes, including the wars that has come up so frequently in the form of the ever so thousands of religious beliefs there is out there. The only thing religion brings is argue, debate, deception, and judging to one another, causing nothing but disagreements and separation of the human base. Trouble if you ask me.

When it comes down to it, I will always believe that since man has to be finger-fed everything of the unexplained and since humanity and its form just needs to have an answer for everything, we... man... created an invisible man in the sky with bunches of rules to set in the fear of death in a way of comfort on how this world does indeed exist.

It's Yahweh or the highway, dude!

I like that!!

Peartree12249 wrote:

Rip Rokken wrote:It's Yahweh or the highway, dude!

I like that!!

Why, thank ya. That was a fresh one, straight from my post-11:30pm mind.

Pretty quick wit for so late in the day Rip.

Monker wrote:

parfait wrote:3: You guys keep mixing up what theory really means. A scientific theory is a deductive theory, meaning that it can be taken as a axiom, a fact. So a scientific theory isn't a idea, but more or less a hypothesis with empirical evidence to back it up. Take the theory of general relativity for example, which is far from a idea, but a indistinguishable scientific fact.

This is true, but only to a point. There is a HUGE difference between String theory, M theory, and the Relativity. There are repeatable physical experiments that can be done to prove Relativity. The very nature of String and M theory is not provable...these are 'invented' to solve various inconsistencies between Relativity and Quantum Mechanics...but there is absolutely no repeatable experiments to prove them.

String and M theory are in the realm of theoretical physics...and will stay there until they can be proven.

Here's a Christopher Hitchens quote to end it off, him being his brilliant and eloquent self:

A modern believer can say and even believe that his faith is quite compatible with science and medicine, but the awkward fact will always be that both things have a tendency to break religion's monopoly, and have often been fiercely resisted for that reason. What happens to the faith healer and the shaman when any poor citizen can see the full effect of drugs and surgeries, administered without ceremonies or mystifications? Roughly the same thing as happens to the rainmaker when the climatologist turns up, or to the diviner from the heavens when schoolteachers get hold of elementary telescopes

And, what will happen to M theory when X theory shows up and seems to be a better way of explaining the universe? it's really not as different and some tend to believe.[/quote]

Yup, that's right.

it's not as much a theory as it is a way to produce one)

Now, this is extremely complicated stuff to wrap your head around, but as of now; m-theory is now the most probable way of solving the aforementioned questions. This isn't just some funky idea made up by a bunch of nerds;

In late 2007, Bagger and Lambert set off renewed interest in M-theory with the discovery of a candidate Lagrangian description of coincident M2-branes, based on a non-associative generalization of Lie Algebra, Nambu 3-algebra or Filippov 3-algebra. Practitioners hope the Bagger-Lambert-Gustavsson action will provide the long-sought microscopic description of M-theory.

Wikipedia, look it up.

A theory is not a constant however; one can be modified and altered.

Religion is the infantile remaining way of answering the world's question, when humanity had none. But now we have answers, and I've moved on. I don't believe in a afterlife; I don't need to. The probability for each and every one of us being born is highly unlikely, but yet here we are, and can enjoy this magnificent world. I'm not letting any fantasy thoughts of a heaven and a totalitarian dictator in sky ruin that.

And for the record, Laura. Maybe scientists would respect the intelligence of a creator if there was one single shred of evidence that there was a creator. And, again you obviously don't understand how the theory of evolution works. A corvette engine was built by mechanical engineers, by the way.

Monker wrote:This sign should be offensive to Christians. Christians don't 'know'. They have faith...and that is what should be emphasized. To 'know' implies that you have proof...and if you have proof, there is no faith.

YoungJRNY wrote:

Until I have one...just ONE reason to believe in a Wizard we call God, I remain on the side to where anything that has ever been explained in everyday life has been proven in a Scientific setting of living and any synonym in its form.

Of course. If we go off of proof alone than any Christian or bible abuser is certainly fucked by all accounts and wouldn't even be ranked in the game. I get it that "Faith" is the key denominator in all of this. In fact, I just had this whole entire convo with my GF, who's a hardcore Christian.

I was talking about a thing called reality and truth while I went over Wonderlic problems about a test I have to take next week to qualify for a new job offer. Trying to explain that it's a game of scategories to where I just have to go through it as quick as possible and just hope for the best, she tried arguein with me that if I don't pass, it was because I didn't believe in myself and have enough faith and pray and let God guide me through it and explained she got through college because of her faith of God giving her the amount of strength to succeed. I wigged on her because I'm so sick and fucking tired of hearing this complete CROCK OF SHIT theory that God gives people of faith "powers to do something."

I called her bluff and straight up told her it was all diarrhea and that I couldn't help but laugh at how smart of a girl she is and then turn around and not understand the "logic" she thought she was spewing and that she certainly is in delusion in thinking so and how mental and brainwashed she SERIOUSLY sounds. I told her I get her Faith and love her to death for it but faith doesn't translate into fact and a book of passages written by man, like me and you, doesn't make something FACT either.

I have the Faith that one day, I am going to fly around this planet, wear a tight blue suite with red underwear over my enormous balls while I wield an S crest in the shape of a diamoind on my chest and play house and save the world. Will my faith mean it will come true? HIGHLY DOUBTABLE. People give themselves NO CREDIT anymore when they do something spectacular. My GF spends countless upon countless numbers an hour in reading, reading, reading, studying and studying 8 hours of the day and busts here complete ass to get the GPA she desevres off of her work ethic alone and doesn't give herself ONE ounce of credit for it. Where does it go? You could guess by now.

Drives me fucking insane anymore.

A lot of people are going to hell in this forum.