MR

Woman pretty much has it right, and pretty much predicted the U.S collapse way back in the 40s and 50s....

Part 1 - roughly 1976
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4doTzCs9lEc&feature=autoplay&list=ULWZJq0RrCGu0&index=1&playnext=2

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ex-rVkOFHU&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFy9A7WEzPA&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL


With Mike wallace in 1959

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKXazhNP2K0&feature=related

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXySL0T1VmI&feature=related

Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CLUN_V2wC0&feature=related


Smartest woman of the 20th Century

S2M wrote:

Smartest woman of the 20th Century

Like that's an accomplishment.

Plus, her writings, books, etc. influenced many a Rush song lyric. If Geddy Lee and Neal Peart like her, she has to be right.

WOW!! I read all the Ayn Rand books out there when I was a teen, I think she definitely influenced me as an adult. She's was a real maverick in her time!!

I didn't realize ssome Rush lyrics originated with Ayn Rand. I guess I going to have to listen up!!

Interesting thought!! Does what you read in your teen (most formidable years) influence how you think about life?

RocknRoll wrote:WOW!! I read all the Ayn Rand books out there when I was a teen, I think she definitely influenced me as an adult. She's was a real maverick in her time!!

I didn't realize ssome Rush lyrics originated with Ayn Rand. I guess I going to have to listen up!!

Interesting thought!! Does what you read in your teen (most formidable years) influence how you think about life?

Yeah. I use to look under my dads bed, find his Hustler & Playboy mags. What a fucking treat that was! But seriously, When you read Rand, you almost have to stop, reread the same paragraph you've just read to absorb & think about it. She was definitely ahead of her time. And getting back to what I really read in my Teen years beside's Hustler & Playboy were The Hardy Boys and any Sports Biography's I could get my hands on!

I was reading the classics and some not so much ...
To Kill A Mockingbird, The Contender, The Great Gatsby, Gone With The Wind, Animal Farm, Forever Amber ...etc.
Many were assignments, but great none the less!! Did they shape/influence me?!? I've never really thought about it, but
I named my daughters after characters in a couple of these books, so yeah, I guess so!!


Did not know of the Rush, Rand tie ...very interesting!!

S2M wrote:Woman pretty much has it right, and pretty much predicted the U.S collapse way back in the 40s and 50s....

Then why did she help hasten this great nation's decline by going on Medicare and Soc. Security? Seems when it actually came time to choose between individualism and collectivism, she chose the later, and sucked at the teet of big gov't. A trailblazer of right wing hypocrisy and little else.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

S2M wrote:Woman pretty much has it right, and pretty much predicted the U.S collapse way back in the 40s and 50s....

Then why did she help hasten this great nation's decline by going on Medicare and Soc. Security? Seems when it actually came time to choose between individualism and collectivism, she chose the later, and sucked at the teet of big gov't. A trailblazer of right wing hypocrisy and little else.

Ok, now you are in my educational realm. She held the belief that government doesn't have the right to take anything from the people(read:tax)...so she looked at it as getting her own money back. Plus, when she got too ill to pay for medical care, she got healthcare ...so what? That is what system was in place.....good for her for taking advantage of something. She said that the cost of medical care was more expensive than her profits from writing books....she paid her own freight her entire life until she was too sick to do it herself.

Study up on her life, as I have done for the past 24 years, before you start slinging oppositional talking points....

S2M wrote:Ok, now you are in my educational realm. She held the belief that government doesn't have the right to take anything from the people(read:tax)...so she looked at it as getting her own money back.

Ah, but Rand disciples are the first to cry out that soc. security is one giant ponzi scheme. Her money had been already spent long before the gov't cut her first check. Why perpetuate what she viewed as a corrupt system leading us down the path to serfdom?

S2M wrote: Plus, when she got too ill to pay for medical care, she got healthcare ...so what? That is what system was in place.....good for her for taking advantage of something.

Not when you've dedicated your life to railing against the welfare state. I guess rugged individualism only goes so far, eh?

S2M wrote:Study up on her life, as I have done for the past 24 years, before you start slinging oppositional talking points....

Reading up on her biography does little to change the fact that she was a right wing hypocrite, and so are you.

Ayn would tell you that she wasn't a liberal, nor a conservative....she was an objectivist. Neither a hypocrite, nor a liar.

S2M wrote:Ayn would tell you that she wasn't a liberal, nor a conservative....she was an objectivist. Neither a hypocrite, nor a liar.

When you make your living warning about the horrors of the impending welfare state and then actively participate in US public insurance programs imported from (gasp!) socialist faggot europe, you are a hypocrite. End of story. I don't care if you are her #1 fan. So was Greenspan, who pretty much destroyed our economy and sent the welfare rolls thru the roof.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

S2M wrote:Ayn would tell you that she wasn't a liberal, nor a conservative....she was an objectivist. Neither a hypocrite, nor a liar.

When you make your living warning about the horrors of the impending welfare state and then actively participate in US public insurance programs imported from (gasp!) socialist faggot europe, you are a hypocrite. End of story. I don't care if you are her #1 fan. So was Greenspan, who pretty much destroyed our economy and sent the welfare rolls thru the roof.

TNC, are you really this dense? Seriously. You can be against something, and still be tied to it's 'policies'. She was against income tax too, but had to pay it just the same. Are you gonna call her a hypocrite for that as well?

She was against the government's hand in anything. So using your logic....governments help build roads, highways...etc. Was she supposed to not travel by road because government funded highway projects - and she was against government aid?

Seriously.....

S2M wrote:TNC, are you really this dense? Seriously. You can be against something, and still be tied to it's 'policies'. She was against income tax too, but had to pay it just the same. Are you gonna call her a hypocrite for that as well?

She was against the government's hand in anything. So using your logic....governments help build roads, highways...etc. Was she supposed to not travel by road because government funded highway projects - and she was against government aid?

Seriously.....

Nobody is talking about roads or income tax. Ayn was not forced to accept soc. security or go on medicare. That was a choice that flew in the face of her own philosophy. Much like Ted Kennedy advocating wind farms, and then saying "not in my backyard", political hypocrisy should be called out.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

S2M wrote:TNC, are you really this dense? Seriously. You can be against something, and still be tied to it's 'policies'. She was against income tax too, but had to pay it just the same. Are you gonna call her a hypocrite for that as well?

She was against the government's hand in anything. So using your logic....governments help build roads, highways...etc. Was she supposed to not travel by road because government funded highway projects - and she was against government aid?

Seriously.....

Nobody is talking about roads or income tax. Ayn was not forced to accept soc. security or go on medicare. That was a choice that flew in the face of her own philosophy. Much like Ted Kennedy advocating wind farms, and then saying "not in my backyard", political hypocrisy should be called out.

First of all, there are alot of libertarians who do practice carefully what they preach. If you want a famous example of a libertarian writer who was true to her word in not accepting government money in her personal life look at folks like Rose Wilder Lane ( who really went out of her way not to accept money from the govt or things part funded by the govt ect.) - as standard I aspire to follow both in my business and personal affiairs That one member of a philosophical movement does some things seeminging inconsisent does not per mean the philosophy is without merit.


Secondly, for all the years of Rand's working life she had income tax, FICA , and all sorts of other tax- which is in libetarain terms theft.
If the government was engaging in theft from her at a rate of nearlty 40% of her earnings wouldn't she have the right to be refunded those moneys that
she had paid ( provided that she didnt take back one penny more than he had paid in). You comment that her social security money had been spend ten times over. (so what it was still her money, stolen from her)

I also point out to you the character of Ragnar Dannesjkold in Atlas Shrugged. Is what Rand did really any different than that. If she justified that activity in her books , maybe she was onlhy being like Ragnar if so, perhaps she wasn't being a hypocrite?

When the govenment holds you in slavery, and you are stuck in the system you have to make the best choices available to you given the system that you are enslaved under..

That said if Rand did take anymore than she paid in , it was injust and wrong . And if she did take money when she had other funds avaialble, then what she did was not unjust but it would have
been an awful stupid thing to do as it would not be in the best interest of furthering her life's work.. But we dont know that for certain. From the little I undersand of her life, Rand didnt earn alot of money from what she did

Rand's philosophy equates collectivism with enslavement. To partake in such programs is like a PETA vegan eating a hamburger. Like so many false idols of the conservative movment, she clearly did not believe her own bullshit.

S2M wrote:

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

S2M wrote:Ayn would tell you that she wasn't a liberal, nor a conservative....she was an objectivist. Neither a hypocrite, nor a liar.

When you make your living warning about the horrors of the impending welfare state and then actively participate in US public insurance programs imported from (gasp!) socialist faggot europe, you are a hypocrite. End of story. I don't care if you are her #1 fan. So was Greenspan, who pretty much destroyed our economy and sent the welfare rolls thru the roof.

TNC, are you really this dense? Seriously. You can be against something, and still be tied to it's 'policies'. She was against income tax too, but had to pay it just the same. Are you gonna call her a hypocrite for that as well?

She was against the government's hand in anything. So using your logic....governments help build roads, highways...etc. Was she supposed to not travel by road because government funded highway projects - and she was against government aid?

Seriously.....

Yes, it is kind of ridiculous. I'm not a big supporter of Social Security, either, but you better believe if the money is still available when I retire, having paid into it all these years as well as my employer on my behalf, I will be taking the money. There's nothing hypocritical about that at all.

RocknRoll wrote:WOW!! I read all the Ayn Rand books out there when I was a teen, I think she definitely influenced me as an adult. She's was a real maverick in her time!!

I didn't realize ssome Rush lyrics originated with Ayn Rand. I guess I going to have to listen up!!

Interesting thought!! Does what you read in your teen (most formidable years) influence how you think about life?

This is from Neal Peart's Wikipedia page:

"While in London he came across the writings of novelist and objectivist Ayn Rand. Rand's writings became a significant philosophical influence on Peart, as he found many of her treatises to individualism and Objectivism inspiring. References to Rand's philosophy can be found in his lyrics, most notably "Anthem" from 1975's Fly by Night and "2112" from 1976's 2112."

(The title and content of "Anthem" was based on her book of the same name.)

"The song "2112" focuses on the struggle of an individual against the collectivist forces of a totalitarian state. This became the band's breakthrough release, but also brought unexpected criticism, mainly because of the credit of inspiration Peart gave to Ayn Rand in the liner notes. "There was a remarkable backlash, especially from the English press, this being the late seventies, when collectivism was still in style, especially among journalists," Peart said. "They were calling us 'Junior fascists' and 'Hitler lovers.' It was a total shock to me".[40]

Weary of accusations of fascism or ideological fealty to Rand's philosophy of Objectivism, Peart has sought to remind listeners of his eclecticism and independence in interviews. He did not, however, try to argue in defense of Rand's views: "For a start, the extent of my influence by the writings of Ayn Rand should not be overstated. I am no one's disciple."

I should check out some of her stuff.

conversationpc wrote:Yes, it is kind of ridiculous. I'm not a big supporter of Social Security, either, but you better believe if the money is still available when I retire, having paid into it all these years as well as my employer on my behalf, I will be taking the money. There's nothing hypocritical about that at all.

Of course it's hypocritical! It's a socialist pension program imported from Germany. You want to recieve your gov't check on time, while screaming about Obamacare being the end of the capitalism. Here's the deal...you can either participate in these public insurance programs or you can try to stand athwart the juggernaut of nanny state government. But you can't do both and expect to be taken seriously.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

conversationpc wrote:Yes, it is kind of ridiculous. I'm not a big supporter of Social Security, either, but you better believe if the money is still available when I retire, having paid into it all these years as well as my employer on my behalf, I will be taking the money. There's nothing hypocritical about that at all.

Of course it's hypocritical! It's a socialist pension program imported from Germany. You want to recieve your gov't check on time, while screaming about Obamacare being the end of the capitalism. Here's the deal...you can either participate in these public insurance programs or you can try to stand athwart the juggernaut of nanny state government. But you can't do both and expect to be taken seriously.

Bullcrap...Did you disagree with the Bush tax cuts? And, if so, did you voluntarily give the difference back to the government? I didn't think so.

conversationpc wrote:Bullcrap...Did you disagree with the Bush tax cuts? And, if so, did you voluntarily give the difference back to the government? I didn't think so.

False argument. Rand had to actively apply for Medicare and Social Security bennies. Why would you go out of your way to sign up for socialist programs that are mutating our country into a totalitarian banana republic? The answer is clear. Rand believed her own nonsense, as much as Newt Gingrich was concerned with the sanctity of marriage and John Boner cares about the deficit. The whole right wing movement is a sham.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

conversationpc wrote:Bullcrap...Did you disagree with the Bush tax cuts? And, if so, did you voluntarily give the difference back to the government? I didn't think so.

False argument. Rand had to actively apply for Medicare and Social Security bennies. Why would you go out of your way to sign up for socialist programs that are mutating our country into a totalitarian banana republic? The answer is clear. Rand believed her own nonsense, as much as Newt Gingrich was concerned with the sanctity of marriage and John Boner cares about the deficit. The whole right wing movement is a sham.

She needed the money when she was old and sick. So what. The alternative was to die. You going to make that choice when you get to that age?

S2M wrote:She needed the money when she was old and sick. So what.

In other words, her right wing dogma made for good reading (and actually, it didn't, as Atlas is a fucking bore) but when applied practically, she was shaking the coffee can and out on her ass just like every other filthy welfare queen. She's a case study in right wing bullshit peddling. Just like the GOP senators attacking the stimulus and then taking credit for infrastructure funded by it. Disgusting.

S2M wrote:You going to make that choice when you get to that age?

I haven't dedicated my life to criticizing and trying to dismantle the safety net.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

S2M wrote:You going to make that choice when you get to that age?

I haven't dedicated my life to criticizing and trying to dismantle the safety net.

Oh, so you are quite content remaining part of the problem, and turning your face to the solution? It wasn't your cause, so you won't adhere to it.

Again, do some research before you wax pathetic about a topic you have no idea about, TNC....taking a couple of talking points and weaving a poorly constructed post depicting Rand in this less than noble light is not only ludicrous, but smacks of your usual liberal rhetoric....I suggest buying a clue with your Bush Tax Cuts.....

S2M wrote:Oh, so you are quite content remaining part of the problem, and turning your face to the solution? It wasn't your cause, so you won't adhere to it.

I don't think it's a problem at all. With a few tweaks, our entitlements can be solvent for decades.

S2M wrote:Again, do some research before you wax pathetic about a topic you have no idea about, TNC....taking a couple of talking points and weaving a poorly constructed post depicting Rand in this less than noble light is not only ludicrous, but smacks of your usual liberal rhetoric....I suggest buying a clue with your Bush Tax Cuts.....

This is just meaningless word salad. Ayn Rand partook in the very amoral system she supposedly despised. She's still a hypocrite and you're still a blind flunkie. Like the worst offendors of Perry cult worship, you are trying to defend the indefensible.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

S2M wrote:Oh, so you are quite content remaining part of the problem, and turning your face to the solution? It wasn't your cause, so you won't adhere to it.

I don't think it's a problem at all. With a few tweaks, our entitlements can be solvent for decades.

S2M wrote:Again, do some research before you wax pathetic about a topic you have no idea about, TNC....taking a couple of talking points and weaving a poorly constructed post depicting Rand in this less than noble light is not only ludicrous, but smacks of your usual liberal rhetoric....I suggest buying a clue with your Bush Tax Cuts.....

This is just meaningless word salad. Ayn Rand partook in the very amoral system she supposedly despised. She's still a hypocrite and you're still a blind flunkie. Like the worst offendors of Perry cult worship, you are trying to defend the indefensible.

And she chose to drive on roads, and fly on airlines that both were/are heavily subsidized with government funds....and she was against that. Again, was she a hypocrite then, too? And no one forced her to do those things....even worse for her, right?

S2M wrote:And she chose to drive on roads, and flew on airlines that both were/are heavily subsidized with government funds....and she was against that. Again, was she a hypocrite then, too? And no one forced her to do those things....even worse for her, right?

Keep spinning, S2M. Obviously, public roads cannot be avoided. I don't recall Ayn making the case for privatized toll roads. If that is true, then yes, she is an even biger hypocritical fraud than I thought.

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

S2M wrote:And she chose to drive on roads, and flew on airlines that both were/are heavily subsidized with government funds....and she was against that. Again, was she a hypocrite then, too? And no one forced her to do those things....even worse for her, right?

Keep spinning, S2M. Obviously, public roads cannot be avoided. I don't recall Ayn making the case for privatized toll roads. If that is true, then yes, she is an even biger hypocritical fraud than I thought.

I'm not spinning. You are dead set against this Medicare/SS topic. YOU are the one with the agenda. Woman's been dead for 29 years. I don't feel the need to stomp on her memory because you label her a hypocrite....

Do me a favor, read The Virtue of Selfishness....a real eye opener. And I'll even do this: I'll read a book of your choosing.

And your reply about not avoiding roads is false. You CAN avoid driving. Just like you can refuse food, drink, and medication when ill. But show me ONE person, who, when faced with death - doesn't come to some internal personal decision to actually accept help with being fed, and given aid from whomever - just to stay alive.....

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

conversationpc wrote:Bullcrap...Did you disagree with the Bush tax cuts? And, if so, did you voluntarily give the difference back to the government? I didn't think so.

False argument. Rand had to actively apply for Medicare and Social Security bennies. Why would you go out of your way to sign up for socialist programs that are mutating our country into a totalitarian banana republic? The answer is clear. Rand believed her own nonsense, as much as Newt Gingrich was concerned with the sanctity of marriage and John Boner cares about the deficit. The whole right wing movement is a sham.

Don't believe she had a choice of paying the Medicare or FICA tax or not.

hoagiepete wrote:

The_Noble_Cause wrote:

conversationpc wrote:Bullcrap...Did you disagree with the Bush tax cuts? And, if so, did you voluntarily give the difference back to the government? I didn't think so.

False argument. Rand had to actively apply for Medicare and Social Security bennies. Why would you go out of your way to sign up for socialist programs that are mutating our country into a totalitarian banana republic? The answer is clear. Rand believed her own nonsense, as much as Newt Gingrich was concerned with the sanctity of marriage and John Boner cares about the deficit. The whole right wing movement is a sham.

Don't believe she had a choice of paying the Medicare or FICA tax or not.

What he is saying is she may not have had a choice whether to contribute to those accounts, but she DID have a choice whether to draw on them later in life. You must apply for them when of age...you just aren't automatically enrolled....

I disagree with TNC, but that was his point....

S2M wrote:But show me ONE person, who, when faced with death - doesn't come to some internal personal decision to actually accept help with being fed, and given aid from whomever - just to stay alive.....

Ayn Rand should've practiced what she preached, and invested wisely or relied on charity/churches. Ron Paul doesn't accept Medicare or Medicaid.